Iskcon Rehash Movement dies ki jai!, Good Riddance to a Bad Thing

[bhaktachris]

One of my most hated things in this world is/was the IRM, they made a mockery of being a Prabhupadanuga. They claimed to have all the answers, while cheating and lying and stealing from others. They are negatively attached to Iskcon's Faults. And they Plagarized from Sulochana Prabhu.

 

More than Iskcon themselves they always wanted to bring back leaders who showed themselves to be bogus, starting with Kirtananada's name. While claiming that a letter written by the poisonous tamal tree, was bonafide.

 

They over look and stomp down just like the 11 zoned out acharyas did, what Prabhupada said was the "Cure" for himself, and his movement.

 

I know this is a long article, but i want to put it here if it is ok..................

 

Architects of the IRM Rtvik Movement, (left to right) Yadubar dasa, Kamsahanta dasa,

and Krishnakant, on their first North American preaching tour, c. 1996

 

 

BY: NAVADVIPCHANDRA DASA

 

 

Sampradaya Sun Article: IRM Dissolves Amongst Inflated Egos

 

 

 

<!--QuoteBegin-->

QUOTE

<!--QuoteEBegin-->Dec 20, USA (SUN) — One very simple way to judge the honesty and integrity of an organization is by seeing the amount of transparency that exists within that organization. Everyone knows from past experience ISKCON fails miserably in the categories of transparency, honesty and freedom to question. Full time members who are dedicated preachers within ISKCON are completely forbidden from asking any questions whatsoever about higher up leadership, for fear of ending up alone on the street. At every step, devotees are encouraged to remain blind and to avoid digging up the past, present or future. This inability to question leadership is one of the main reasons why so much corruption exists within ISKCON. Part of the problem is that in most cases ISKCON leaders are invariably the Gurus of those working under them. Thus it becomes "offensive" to even think something wrong may be occurring up there.

 

 

In response to this, some devotees look to the IRM (ISKCON Revival Movement), to cleanse ISKCON and bring about a transformation in ISKCON where honesty, transparency and freedom are key defining aspects of the society. The IRM presents itself as a grass roots movement comprised of all those devotees who want to follow Srila Prabhupada's pure instructions. From a distance this sounds good, but as you get closer you see there are some very peculiar symptoms which are reminiscent of the corrupt ISKCON they claim to be cleansing.

 

 

Over the last few months there have been many rumors coming out about the IRM from highly reliable internal sources, which indicate things are not all smiles. For example, IRM world headquarters (the gigantic ISKCON Bangalore temple ran by Madhu Pandit Das) removed themselves from the IRM and demanded Krishnakant remove their address from both the IRM website and the IRM magazines (Back to Prabhupada). The Bangalore temple, as Prabhupadanugas, still remain friendly with the IRM, but do not want to be officially associated with them.

 

 

A second rumor that had been going around was that the Singapore ISKCON temple, ran by Sundar Gopal Das, walked out of the IRM as well, due to disagreements with Krishnakant over initiations. Krishnakant told him that no one can be given ritvik initiation because only the corrupt GBC had the right to appoint ritviks. Without being first appointed by the GBC, you do not have authority to initiate on Srila Prabhupada's behalf.

 

 

All the while that these rumors were going around, the official IRM "leaders" Krishnakant and Yaduraj, both from England, carefully avoided these topics. When the questions came up on other forums, Yaduraj would even post under fake usernames saying "Those all sound like a bunch of rumors to me, I'm sure there is no truth to them."

 

 

This month a third rumor came out, again from highly reliable sources in Bangalore, that Madhu Pandit had planned to give ritvik initiation to 200 devotees. The devotees had already been informed that they would be initiated and the date of the initiation was fixed. In the past many devotees had already been initiated in Bangalore by the same system. But Krishnakant ran to Bangalore and forced Madhu Pandit to cancel the initiations citing the same argument: only the GBC can appoint ritviks, so without first reforming the GBC no one can be initiated.

 

 

Having heard all these rumors from highly reliable sources, I thought I would give the IRM the chance to explain their position themselves. I had gone through their website, noted their FAQs and saw how they claimed to be a grass roots organization made up of virtually every Prabhupadanuga follower in the world. I also saw they had projected two of their members, Krishnakant and Yaduraj, as the worldwide "leaders" of IRM. In their forums they even had a separate section "for leaders of IRM to post" (who really only referred toYaduraj and Krishnakant). Also in the Bangalore and Singapore temple stories, it was clear some leader was trying to exert their power over the temples to conform to their opinion. This brought up some serious questions about these two characters, primarily who appointed them as the worldwide "leaders" of the Prabhupadanugas? I decided to ask them politely to see if the rumors could be put to rest with their direct explanation. I went to their forum and posted the following four questions, requesting them to help remove the rumors:

 

 

1) I have heard rumors that Bangalore temple was going to initiate many people as disciples of Srila Prabhupada, but that IRM leaders have stepped in to block it. Could someone from IRM explain the real story behind this, and if its true, what was the reason for stopping the initiations?

 

 

2) Already Bangalore temple has initiated hundreds of people as disciples of Srila Prabhupada. What is the IRM's opinion on these past initiations? If they are still considered valid, then why stop new initiations?

 

 

3) Who exactly are the leaders of the IRM, who has appointed them and when? On the website there is no clear indication about a leadership hierarchy. It seems to describe IRM more as a grass roots movement, with anyone who follows Srila Prabhupada being a member. But then we see there is a seperate forum "for leaders of IRM to post" (who seem to be only Yaduraj and Krishnakanth) and we see that there are obviously some leaders acting, for example in the Bangalore initiation case.

 

 

4) There have been rumors that the Singapore temple has left the IRM and has already started giving ritvik initiations to people independently. Could someone from the IRM make a clear statement on what has happened and what is the disagreement?

 

 

Rather than getting an honest answer from the IRM leaders (Krishnakant and Yaduraj), I was surprised that they immediately banned me from the forums and deleted all past messages I had ever posted. The forums are personally administered by Yaduraj, so it became obvious that he had something to hide and didn't want these questions being seen by anyone.

 

 

Seeing that I wouldn't be able to get an answer from them directly, I posted the same questions on a neutral forum, bhaktiforums.com, and emailed the link to both Yaduraj and Krishnakant. In an attempt to hide the truth, Yaduraj began posting under the fake name of VISNU (which was latter proven to be himself, saying it was all just rumors, and that he had just spoken with "Yaduraj" who told him there was some technical problem with their forums resulting in their forums being disabled. He further went on to glorify Krishnakant concluding that "Krishnakant is leader of the IRM worldwide." He also said: "The IRM Forum Admin [Yaduraj] told me the forums are down, and some posts were deleted, but they are working to get it back up - perhaps in a new Q&A style for those interested in the philosophy."

 

 

I went to their websites front page and saw they had removed all links to their forums. I thought, "This is amazing. They are so scared of these four simple and honest questions, that they have removed their entire forums from their website instantly." They tried to cover this up by saying it was a "technical problem" and the forums weren't working any more. But I remembered the direct URL to the forums, and went there to see. It turned out they had only removed the link to the forums from their website, but they had forgotten to actually disable the forums. I again pointed out in the above thread that the forums are fine, and anyone can visit them using the direct link.

 

 

When Yaduraj saw this, he went and deleted every single message from the IRM forums, literally thousands of messages. All that he left was the "IRM Leaders Forum" where only himself and Krishnakant could post. I began to wonder what were they trying so hard to cover up. At this point I didn't know the complete answer to my four questions, but I realized it must be very bad or they wouldn't be making this frantic attempt to hide it.

 

 

Around this time it was revealed that the poster VISNU who was glorifying Yaduraj and Krishnakant in the thread above was none other than Yaduraj himself. I posted evidence of this, and in response Yaduraj completely removed even his "IRM Leaders Forum" as well and hid all signs of past communication – which is still the present status as of now.

 

 

It seems I had accidentally stumbled upon information that they didn't want the world to know at any cost. After contacting other devotees I was able to piece together the answers to my four questions.

 

The first thing Krishnakant and Yaduraj don't want anyone to know is that they are self appointed world leaders of IRM. No one has authorized them or appointed them to be the leaders of the Prabhupadanugas worldwide, nor even of the IRM. When you speak to the actual Prabhupadanugas, people who sacrificed their lives preaching and pushing forward Prabhupada's movement, they want nothing to do with these characters. What did Krishnakant sacrifice for Prabhupada? Has he ever been a member of an ISKCON temple? Has he ever been initiated, either by Prabhupada, a ritvik or an ISKCON guru? The answer to all of these questions is no. Actually he hasn't had any real connection to ISKCON or Prabhupada through service. Then what makes him the worldwide leader of IRM, and what gives him the right to prevent devotees like Sundar Gopal in Singapore from carrying out ritvik initiations on behalf of Srila Prabhupada?

 

 

The real leaders of the Prabhupadanugas are those devotees who have sacrificed their lives to spread Prabhupada's movement. Those are people like Sundar Gopal in Singapore, Madhu Pandit in Bangalore, and so many other devotees in America who have been sincerely serving Prabhupada's movement independently. But along comes Mr. Krishnakant Desai, who thinks he is the automatic worldwide leader simply because he sat at a computer and wrote an article called "The Final Order". Why should devotees like Sundar Gopal tolerate the interference from such self appointed pretenders?

 

 

Krishnakant borrowed what was already developed by devotees like Yasodanandana. They had researched and debated this topic from 1980 while Krishnakant was still a nobody worshipping his father's Ganesha statues. After Srila Prabhupada's disciples struggled and fought the corrupt GBC and gurus for years and years, suddenly Krishnakant shows up to claim himself as the leader of the Prabhupadanugas. Singapore temple, which has struggled preaching, for many more years than Krishnakant has been around, was interested in bringing devotees to Prabhupada. But Krishnakant wanted that stopped. So Sundar Gopal just gave a boot to Krishnakant and told the small boy to get out.

 

 

The "worldwide IRM" are temples where real devotees have struggled and preached. It has nothing to do with Krishnakant. Did Krishnakant preach and develop Bangalore temple? Did he preach and develop Singapore temple? Did he preach and develop Calcutta temple? No. He simply came and took the credit for making a "worldwide" IRM, and then appointed himself the leader. There were thousands of Prabhupadanugas throughout the world, due to the hard work and preaching of many hundreds of Prabhupada disciples. But somehow Krishnakant and Yaduraj think they are the self appointed leaders of everyone. They tried to stop Sundar Gopal from giving ritvik initiations in Singapore, but he wasn't interested in listening to them. He had been preaching Prabhupada's system from before Krishnakant had touched a bead bag.

 

 

IRM takes claim for all the Prabhupadanugas throughout the world. How much of that preaching they actually did is zero. I can appreciate that they have preached against corruption and self appointed gurus. But then they turn around and self appoint themselves! And if anyone just asks for an explanation, they panic and start deleting all signs of evidence. When people are scared to answer simple questions and want everything to be secret, it is a sign of corruption. Any organization that thinks it is above question, and any organization that tries to silence honest sincere doubts by force is corrupt. Whether they call themselves as ISKCON or IRM makes no difference.

 

 

So in summary, after thoroughly researching the answers to my questions myself (because IRM leaders Yaduraj and Krishnakant wouldn't answer, and tried to cover the truth), this is what I have found:

 

There are absolutely no ISKCON temples left in the IRM. All ISKCON temples that had been members have removed themselves from this organization and have forced Yaduraj to remove their addresses from IRM websites and magazines. Singapore temple, after leaving the IRM, has completely ignored Krishnakant's orders and has started initiating people as disciples of Srila Prabhupada. They no longer even hint that they have had any past connection at all to the IRM.

 

 

The break up was due to the fact that all of these senior preachers and servants of Srila Prabhupada were being forced to fall in line with Krishnakant's whims, the same Krishnakant who has never been a full-time devotee and who has never sacrificed anything for Srila Prabhupada's movement. Rather than listen to the assembly of Vaishnavas, Krishnakant insisted that only he was intelligent enough to instruct the temples how to act.

 

 

If we look at the founding resolutions of the IRM, under the resolution titled "Leadership" we see it stated:

 

"The IRM will be guided in its strategy and provided leadership and authority by the temple presidents body, which will be composed of temple presidents."

 

 

Somewhere along the way Krishnakant decided he didn't need to listen to the temple presidents, who were the actual leaders of the IRM, but instead all temple presidents should conform to his personal whims. As a result, all temple presidents have removed themselves from the IRM and now there is not a single temple left in the IRM. This is what the IRM (now just the self-appointed Yaduraj and Krishnakant) are trying so hard to hide: the fact that they have no official temples left, only a monthly magazine and a P.O. Box in England.

 

 

There are still plenty of Prabhupadanuga temples throughout the world, just no IRM temples, because devotees have seen that the self-appointed leaders (Krishnakant and Yaduraj) are no more honest or transparent than the ISKCON GBC. Next time you ask an honest question and you see a huge frantic effort to hide all traces of it, you should know it is a sign of corruption. As I said before, any organization that thinks it is above question, and any organization that tries to silence honest sincere doubts by force is corrupt. Whether they call themselves as ISKCON or IRM makes no difference. <!--QuoteEnd-->

 

<!--QuoteEEnd-->

<!--IBF.ATTACHMENT_36995-->(jatayu, if you read this, jump off the titanic now, and join us on the Jaladhuta!)

[bhaktachris]

 

Seeing this pic helps me to understand why the dealings that i have had with the IRM were so bad, these guys are clearly just thugs!

 

 

Thugs (thŭgz) , former Indian religious sect of murderers and robbers, also called Phansigars [stranglers]. Membership was primarily hereditary and included both Hindus and Muslims, but all were devotees of the Hindu goddess Kali and committed their murders as sacrifices to her. A pickax (representing the tooth of Kali, which she was said to have bestowed upon the organization) was consecrated after the victim's grave had been dug with it. For most of the year Thugs followed ordinary occupations, but in the autumn they went about in bands, disguised as merchants or religious mendicants. When they encountered wealthy travelers, they would ingratiate themselves and await an opportunity to kill. The murder was effected by strangling the victim with a scarf reserved for the purpose. Women and members of certain low castes, such as sweepers, washermen, and musicians, were usually exempted from attack. The Thugs, whose activities are known as far back as the 13th cent., were protected by their strong organization and by local officials with whom they would divide the spoils. Early in the period of British rule in India the decision was made to destroy the Thugs. Sir William Sleeman accomplished the repression (1829–48) by mass arrests and executions

 

[url="http://www.gaudiya-repercussions.com/index.php?showtopic=157&view=findpost&p=26565"]

[Guest guest]

These 3 guys are a bunch of jokers. Unfortunate are the ones that bought into the nonsense spouted by these 3.

 

 

 

Seeing this pic helps me to understand why the dealings that i have had with the IRM were so bad, these guys are clearly just thugs!

 

 

showtopic=157&view=findpost&p=26565"]

[Guest guest]

 

These 3 guys are a bunch of jokers. Unfortunate are the ones that bought into the nonsense spouted by these 3.

 

Your point about covering up information is valid, (if it is true). But why the hate filled venomous post about IRM leaders who simply have a difference in opinion to yourself?

 

The crux of this whole rant and your whole focus seems to be about WHO HAS CONTROL, and that WHY SHOULD SOMEONE ELSE HAVE CONTROL instead of YOU.

[suchandra]

 

One of my most hated things in this world is/was the IRM, they made a mockery of being a Prabhupadanuga. <!--QuoteEEnd-->

<!--IBF.ATTACHMENT_36995-->(jatayu, if you read this, jump off the titanic now, and join us on the Jaladhuta!)

 

Jatayu is surely on the Jaladhuta - but without hate. Do you say that you also hate Prabhupada's letter where he says, "please - new disciples are my disciples"?

 

[bhaktachris]

Fool!!!! This letter is not Prabhupada's! It is Tamal's, and judge a thing by it's result, who became Zoned Out Acharyas? EVERYONE OF THOSE WHO ARE ON THIS HIT LIST! written by Tamal!

Read the conversations, the day before this letter, TWICE!!! Prabhupada said NO! to the idea of changing the way things were, with the "local senior man doing" to this faction that you seem to support!

 

Just see the signature of Srila Prabhupada! It is a forgery! Off on the side, under "authorized"! Tamal had access to that signature, and had everything to gain by presenting a false letter of forgery listing 11 bad men to be the perfect faction. And just see what it got him, and the others on the list!

 

If things had stayed the same, with the local man doing this "ritvik" thing (i do HATE the word "ritvik" too, cuz that is also tamals' crap) but if the local man doing as Prabhupada said when asked for names, by tamal, we would not be in the mess we are in!

 

The letter below, jatayus "position paper" is listing Queertanananda's name as first.......... to a rascal who wants power, and prestige, he seees this letter as 'bonafide'

 

hahahahahahahahhaahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahaha

ahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahaha:) Fool!~

 

 

 

Jatayu is surely on the Jaladhuta - but without hate. Do you say that you also hate Prabhupada's letter where he says, "please - new disciples are my disciples"?

 

[Guest guest]

 

Fool!!!! This letter is not Prabhupada's! It is Tamal's, and judge a thing by it's result, who became Zoned Out Acharyas? EVERYONE OF THOSE WHO ARE ON THIS HIT LIST! written by Tamal!

!~

 

 

bhaktachris, you may have a point about the letter. I just have a question; I

 

f Tamal forged the letter why does it only talk about Ritviks? Why not full fledged acharya? That part doesnt make sense to me, if Tamal forged the signature which means he didnt even show it to Prabhupada why doesnt it say clearly that the 11 selected are Guru's? But it only says they are Ritviks.

 

Forging the letter to single out 11 could be possible BUT.......

 

why would someone forge a letter which only authorises a position which is contrary to the desires of the forger? i.e Ritvik if he wanted to be Guru?

[suchandra]

 

bhaktachris, you may have a point about the letter. I just have a question; I

 

f Tamal forged the letter why does it only talk about Ritviks? Why not full fledged acharya? That part doesnt make sense to me, if Tamal forged the signature which means he didnt even show it to Prabhupada why doesnt it say clearly that the 11 selected are Guru's? But it only says they are Ritviks.

 

Forging the letter to single out 11 could be possible BUT.......

 

why would someone forge a letter which only authorises a position which is contrary to the desires of the forger? i.e Ritvik if he wanted to be Guru?

 

Good point, additionally, why TKG would write a letter which the GBC had to hide for so many years? TKG could also not have written it because he didnt know that term "rittvik representatives of the acarya" so well. He might have heard it from Prabhupada but didnt take it inside in such a way as to write it in that letter the way it is written. At that point they surely knew that they want to be gurus who make their own disciples, why then would he write in that letter, "newly initiated devotees are disciples of Srila Prabhupada"? This doesnt make sense. When Bhakta Chris, the cowherd boy of "protect_a_cow.com" presents a suspicion, "TKG forged that letter", there should be at least some solid arguments with logic and reason. At that time the only motive would have been to forge a letter in order convince the ISKCON movement that Prabhupada appointed these eleven to be diksa-gurus who should initiate their own disciples. This letter says the opposite in such a way that they had to hide it.

[Guest guest]

Suchandra prabhu,

 

The ritviks are a funny lot. They engage in such blasphemy of all and sundry and take it to unprecendent levels of publishing a crap magazine called BTP where they criticize everyone that doesn't tow their line. Now remember, that blasphemy included HH Tamal Krishna Goswami. Ritviks dismiss everything he did or spoke. However, a letter written by the very same person is all of a sudden bonafide, and they want to use it as evidence, ey?

 

Ritviks lack many things and certainly <B> <font size="7"> <I>'integrity' </B> </font> </I> is one of them!

 

Why a sincere & noble devotee such as yourself would want to tow the line of such low-lives is mysterious.

 

 

Good point, additionally, why TKG would write a letter which the GBC had to hide for so many years? TKG could also not have written it because he didnt know that term "rittvik representatives of the acarya" so well. He might have heard it from Prabhupada but didnt take it inside in such a way as to write it in that letter the way it is written. At that point they surely knew that they want to be gurus who make their own disciples, why then would he write in that letter, "newly initiated devotees are disciples of Srila Prabhupada"? This doesnt make sense. When Bhakta Chris, the cowherd boy of "protect_a_cow.com" presents a suspicion, "TKG forged that letter", there should be at least some solid arguments with logic and reason. At that time the only motive would have been to forge a letter in order convince the ISKCON movement that Prabhupada appointed these eleven to be diksa-gurus who should initiate their own disciples. This letter says the opposite in such a way that they had to hide it.

[bhaktachris]

 

bhaktachris, you may have a point about the letter. I just have a question; I

 

f Tamal forged the letter why does it only talk about Ritviks? Why not full fledged acharya? That part doesnt make sense to me, if Tamal forged the signature which means he didnt even show it to Prabhupada why doesnt it say clearly that the 11 selected are Guru's? But it only says they are Ritviks.

 

Forging the letter to single out 11 could be possible BUT.......

 

why would someone forge a letter which only authorises a position which is contrary to the desires of the forger? i.e Ritvik if he wanted to be Guru?

 

I have heard this over and over, i have also heard the IRM say that these 11 guys were in good standing then. IRM supports these criminals.

 

Prabhupada says to us, and we listen.....................

 

"JUDGE A THING BY IT'S RESULT" do that with the letter forged by tamal, and think about it, what was the result? Was there any other person who was a zoned out acharya? NO!

 

Also listen to the conversations of the day before! Prabhupada said TWICE! NO, NO the local man can do. Do you think he did not know what would come of making a faction of names on a list? THAT IS THE SECOND REASON THAT WE REJECT THIS LETTER AS A FORGERY!

 

FIRST REASON TO REJECT THAT LETTER........"JUDGE A THING BY IT'S RESULT"

SECOND IS BECAUSE PRABHUPADA SAID "NO, THE SENIOR MAN CAN DO"........................."NO THE SENIOR MAN CAN DO"

 

I was there when this happened, my TP was in the quarters when this happened. Prabhupada did not want this faction made, he wanted things to remain as they were. With LOCAL SENIOR MAN DOING the reccomendations to who would be Prabhupada's disciple. That same local man was doing the fire sacrifice too! But after this letter was accepted, those guys who tamal named as ritvik, became successors, not because they were told to, but because they were the only ones on a list. A HIT LIST!

 

If nothing was changed, and if more people realized that the hit list was just that, we would not have had the zoned out acharyas, or ritviks or living guurs, or iskcon rehash movements, or criminals and homosexual child molesters as guru.

 

We would have had Prabhuapda in the center giving initiations to those that the local, mean senior man was recommending to be his disciples.

 

NO MIDDLE MAN NEEDED NOT EVEN ONE OR 11 CALLED RITVIK

 

ritvik=hahahahahahahahahhaha you are duped! By the author of Rittvik, tamal! hahahahahaha fools.

[Guest guest]

Guest768,

 

PAMHO. First, I have nowhere said I desire control. Have you already been brain washed by your ritvik camp to believe anyone who opposes your camp desires power?

 

I have no hatred toward the IRM. They're a bunch of deluded souls covered by the illusion of Maya. I am heavily under the influence of Maya as well, so being in the same position, why would I hate them? My hatred is against their offensice mentality, a mentality that will (if not already) destroy everything that they worked for in Krsna Cons.

 

Also, are you so naive to believe that all it's about is a difference of opinion? LOL, read the nonsense magazine called BTP and find out where the venom is!

 

 

Your point about covering up information is valid, (if it is true). But why the hate filled venomous post about IRM leaders who simply have a difference in opinion to yourself?

 

The crux of this whole rant and your whole focus seems to be about WHO HAS CONTROL, and that WHY SHOULD SOMEONE ELSE HAVE CONTROL instead of YOU.

[bhaktachris]

One more thing.....................

 

Those who think it funny that the letter written by tamal on july 9th 77 did not include words like dikhsa guru or whatever are actually the people who prove my point.

 

Just see you and IRM think that this letter is bonafide, you accept it as truth, that Prabhupada really signed it as authorized. So it was perfect the way it was, if you "judge a thing by it's result".

 

If the letter said that PRabhupada had named these guys as the successor gurus, who would have accepted?

 

That is the most silly arguement i have ever heard! And your believing that the letter written by tamal is authorized, just proves my point, if you follow PRabhupada's instructions, and........ "JUDGE A THING BY IT'S RESULT"

 

Who would have accepted that Prabhupada authorized Successor Gurus? Who would have? IT HAD to read like it did, and that was the biggest change in Iskcon to that date.

 

WE LOVE TAMAL AND KIRTANANANDA!

[Guest guest]

BhaktaChris ... that picture you post really cracks me up. Why does that guy on the right have his mouth open like that?!

 

 

One more thing.....................

 

Those who think it funny that the letter written by tamal on july 9th 77 did not include words like dikhsa guru or whatever are actually the people who prove my point.

 

Just see you and IRM think that this letter is bonafide, you accept it as truth, that Prabhupada really signed it as authorized. So it was perfect the way it was, if you "judge a thing by it's result".

 

If the letter said that PRabhupada had named these guys as the successor gurus, who would have accepted?

 

That is the most silly arguement i have ever heard! And your believing that the letter written by tamal is authorized, just proves my point, if you follow PRabhupada's instructions, and........ "JUDGE A THING BY IT'S RESULT"

 

Who would have accepted that Prabhupada authorized Successor Gurus? Who would have? IT HAD to read like it did, and that was the biggest change in Iskcon to that date.

 

WE LOVE TAMAL AND KIRTANANANDA!

[Guest guest]

So BhaktaChris ... the IRM jokers actually accept the 11 original ritviks as bonafide? They seem like a really confused lot.

 

 

One more thing.....................

 

Those who think it funny that the letter written by tamal on july 9th 77 did not include words like dikhsa guru or whatever are actually the people who prove my point.

 

Just see you and IRM think that this letter is bonafide, you accept it as truth, that Prabhupada really signed it as authorized. So it was perfect the way it was, if you "judge a thing by it's result".

 

If the letter said that PRabhupada had named these guys as the successor gurus, who would have accepted?

 

That is the most silly arguement i have ever heard! And your believing that the letter written by tamal is authorized, just proves my point, if you follow PRabhupada's instructions, and........ "JUDGE A THING BY IT'S RESULT"

 

Who would have accepted that Prabhupada authorized Successor Gurus? Who would have? IT HAD to read like it did, and that was the biggest change in Iskcon to that date.

 

WE LOVE TAMAL AND KIRTANANANDA!

[Guest guest]

 

Guest768,

 

PAMHO. First, I have nowhere said I desire control. Have you already been brain washed by your ritvik camp to believe anyone who opposes your camp desires power?

 

I have no hatred toward the IRM. They're a bunch of deluded souls covered by the illusion of Maya. I am heavily under the influence of Maya as well, so being in the same position, why would I hate them? My hatred is against their offensice mentality, a mentality that will (if not already) destroy everything that they worked for in Krsna Cons.

 

Also, are you so naive to believe that all it's about is a difference of opinion? LOL, read the nonsense magazine called BTP and find out where the venom is!

 

Actually I directed my last comments at Bhaktachris, not to yourself, my mistake. I appologise.

 

To you however it is alright to call IRM 'deluded', but at the same time when IRM simply says Iskcon Guru's are unauthorised you say that is 'venom'. Your logic is seriously weird my friend.

 

And to Bhaktachris you have done everything but answer the one question that I put to you. I am open to the fact that it may have been forged but again.......WHY WOULD TAMAL FORGE A LETTER THAT ONLY SAYS HE AND HIS BUDDIES CAN ACT AS RITVIKS???????

[Guest guest]

 

I have heard this over and over, i have also heard the IRM say that these 11 guys were in good standing then. IRM supports these criminals.

 

Prabhupada says to us, and we listen.....................

 

"JUDGE A THING BY IT'S RESULT" do that with the letter forged by tamal, and think about it, what was the result? Was there any other person who was a zoned out acharya? NO!

 

Also listen to the conversations of the day before! Prabhupada said TWICE! NO, NO the local man can do. Do you think he did not know what would come of making a faction of names on a list? THAT IS THE SECOND REASON THAT WE REJECT THIS LETTER AS A FORGERY!

 

FIRST REASON TO REJECT THAT LETTER........"JUDGE A THING BY IT'S RESULT"

SECOND IS BECAUSE PRABHUPADA SAID "NO, THE SENIOR MAN CAN DO"........................."NO THE SENIOR MAN CAN DO"

 

I was there when this happened, my TP was in the quarters when this happened. Prabhupada did not want this faction made, he wanted things to remain as they were. With LOCAL SENIOR MAN DOING the reccomendations to who would be Prabhupada's disciple. That same local man was doing the fire sacrifice too! But after this letter was accepted, those guys who tamal named as ritvik, became successors, not because they were told to, but because they were the only ones on a list. A HIT LIST!

 

If nothing was changed, and if more people realized that the hit list was just that, we would not have had the zoned out acharyas, or ritviks or living guurs, or iskcon rehash movements, or criminals and homosexual child molesters as guru.

 

We would have had Prabhuapda in the center giving initiations to those that the local, mean senior man was recommending to be his disciples.

 

NO MIDDLE MAN NEEDED NOT EVEN ONE OR 11 CALLED RITVIK

 

ritvik=hahahahahahahahahhaha you are duped! By the author of Rittvik, tamal! hahahahahaha fools.

 

 

"FIRST REASON TO REJECT THAT LETTER........"JUDGE A THING BY IT'S RESULT"

 

1)The 'result' is not what was intended by the letter. The letter says, 'ritviks' and Zonal Acharya's are not Ritviks. Where is your reasoning???

 

SECOND IS BECAUSE PRABHUPADA SAID "NO, THE SENIOR MAN CAN DO"........................."NO THE SENIOR MAN CAN DO"

 

2) Prabhupada also says on tape, "I will recommend some of you to act as officiating acharya's." Thats on tape Prabhupada saying he will RECOMMEND!!! Is that the same as just any sanyasi or temple president? No

 

Your points really dont make any sense whatsoever.

[bhaktachris]

 

"FIRST REASON TO REJECT THAT LETTER........"JUDGE A THING BY IT'S RESULT"

 

1)The 'result' is not what was intended by the letter. The letter says, 'ritviks' and Zonal Acharya's are not Ritviks. Where is your reasoning???

 

SECOND IS BECAUSE PRABHUPADA SAID "NO, THE SENIOR MAN CAN DO"........................."NO THE SENIOR MAN CAN DO"

 

2) Prabhupada also says on tape, "I will recommend some of you to act as officiating acharya's." Thats on tape Prabhupada saying he will RECOMMEND!!! Is that the same as just any sanyasi or temple president? No

 

Your points really dont make any sense whatsoever.

 

Not intended, but the result, just as tamal planned it to happen. Don't look at the intention, Prabhupada says to "Judge a thing by it's result" not me, i did not say that, i repeated only.

 

And Prabhupada did say twice no to this request. Only after much nagging by tamal did he acquiesce, but it never sounded like these names were to be the only ones who would do, that is where the letter written and designed by tamal came in. He wrote in that letter, that "in the past the temple presidents............." but after this letter, those who chose to follow tamal and his co conspiritors, had to see the 11 only. That was the biggest change to Iskcon to date. Giving that much power to a faction of the biggest rascals in our movement, with Kirtanananda's name first!

 

If this letter was so important to Prabhupada's will, Prabhupada would have written it, if it was a clever trick to get 11 bad dudes names on a list of those to take over, then it would have to be authored by tamal, with the forgery on it of Prabhupada's signature. Prabhupada always tells us to avoid any factions. That letter created a faction.

 

And still if you look at the RESULT and not the intentions, what do you see? Result=Zoned Out Acharyas.

 

Yeah! that picture is the funniest thing! Did you not know that the guy on the right is KrsnaKant? hahahahahaahha what a joker!

Judge a thing by the intention! Says KrsnaKant (the thug on the right of the other 2 thugs)

 

I give up on you guys, you can have your ritviks, your kirtananandas, we follow Prabhupada, he says "Judge a thing by it's result" we see that having names of a certain faction along with the word "ritvik" you get something bad, so we reject that, because that is a bad result. He did say "NO the senior man can do" he does not say from now on, the senior man can not do, no he did not say that we should have kirtanandnanad as our ritvik.

[bhaktachris]

If you prove to me that Prabhupada wanted the system that he was using, with the local senior man doing to stop, and that those particular 11 guys were supposed to be the only ones from then on. If you can prove to me that this letter written by tamal is bonerfide, then i will have to ? kill myself, or reject Krishna or become a meat eater or?

 

What do you want to do, become defamationist by defaming the Founder/Acharya by saying that he appointed THOSE guys?

[Guest guest]

 

If you prove to me that Prabhupada wanted the system that he was using, with the local senior man doing to stop, and that those particular 11 guys were supposed to be the only ones from then on. If you can prove to me that this letter written by tamal is bonerfide, then i will have to ? kill myself, or reject Krishna or become a meat eater or?

 

What do you want to do, become defamationist by defaming the Founder/Acharya by saying that he appointed THOSE guys?

 

Bhaktachris,

 

It did seem strange that Prabhupada would recommend Kritanananda as Prabhupada had known he was a severe deviant. The letter singled out the 11 to control, I think it could be possible that it was a forgery.

 

But still you have avoided my question, WHY WOULD TAMAL FORGE A LETTER WHICH ONLY AUTHORISES HIM TO BE A RITVIK PRIEST?!!!!

 

I mean if Tamal was going to forge a letter and not show it to Prabhupada (which I think would be impossible anyway because Prabhupada would have got to see it) why not just say, "These 11 are Prabhupada's successor Acharya's" and forge Prabhupada's signiture?

 

That part does not make sense at all.

[bhaktachris]

 

Bhaktachris,

 

It did seem strange that Prabhupada would recommend Kritanananda as Prabhupada had known he was a severe deviant. The letter singled out the 11 to control, I think it could be possible that it was a forgery.

 

But still you have avoided my question, WHY WOULD TAMAL FORGE A LETTER WHICH ONLY AUTHORISES HIM TO BE A RITVIK PRIEST?!!!!

 

I mean if Tamal was going to forge a letter and not show it to Prabhupada (which I think would be impossible anyway because Prabhupada would have got to see it) why not just say, "These 11 are Prabhupada's successor Acharya's" and forge Prabhupada's signiture?

 

That part does not make sense at all.

Prabhu, with all the humility that i can muster, please read my reply to this question. You seem to be not listening. I already answered.

 

But in short.............. the reason that tamal forged a letter that listed him and the other 10 is to stop the control of the "local senior man doing" from the temple presidents to only this faction. If he had written as you suggest "These 11 are Prabhupada's successor Acharya's" how many would have accepted? And again, for you who seem to just neglect hearing Prabhupada, you must "Judge a thing by it's result". Not one name more not one name less was the result of that letter, who became Zoned Out Acharya. It worked perfectly...........listen! It did it's job! It made the faction that tamal and co. wanted, and was able to get.

 

How can this not make any sence to you? If the result was only these guys being Zoned Out, and Prabhupada says to "judge a thing by the result" How can you keep thinking that a letter where many good devotees, voted in by the confidance of the temple peoples, namely the Temple Presidents, are relieved of their duties by tamal's forged letter, and tamal's new word, "ritvik" and men like Kirtanananda and Bhavananada are put in charge of that duty, how can you not see that this was a forgery and trick, even if it did not say successor to the acharya. If the result is that they gained power, how can you still want to promote their power?

 

The letter is a trick, it worked perfectly, and you are still being tricked, the end.

[bhaktachris]

Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 12.8

prathame ta' eka-mata acaryera gana

pache dui-mata haila daivera karana

SYNONYMS

prathame -- in the beginning; ta' -- however; eka-mata -- one opinion; acaryera -- of Advaita Acarya; gana -- followers; pache -- later; dui-mata -- two opinions; haila -- became; daivera -- of providence; karana -- the cause.

TRANSLATION

At first all the followers of AdvaitaAcarya shared a single opinion. But later they followed two different opinions, as ordained by providence.

PURPORT

The words daivera karana indicate that by dint of providence, or by God's will, the followers of Advaita Acarya divided into two parties. Such disagreement among the disciples of one acarya is also found among the members of the GaudiyaMatha. In the beginning, during the presence of Om Vishnupada Paramahamsa Parivrajakacarya Ashtottara-sata Sri Srimad Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada, all the disciples worked in agreement; but just after his disappearance, they disagreed. One party strictly followed the instructions of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, but another group created their own concoction about executing his desires. Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, at the time of his departure, requested all his disciples to form a governing body and conduct missionary activities cooperatively. He did not instruct a particular man to become the next acarya. But just after his passing away, his leading secretaries made plans, without authority, to occupy the post of acarya, and they split into two factions over who the next acarya would be. Consequently, both factions were asara, or useless, because they had no authority, having disobeyed the order of the spiritual master. Despite the spiritual master's order to form a governing body and execute the missionary activities of the Gaudiya Matha, the two unauthorized factions began litigation that is still going on after forty years with no decision.

Therefore, we do not belong to any faction. But because the two parties, busy dividing the material assets of the Gaudiya Matha institution, stopped the preaching work, we took up the mission of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura and Bhaktivinoda Thakura to preach the cult of Caitanya Mahaprabhu all over the world, under the protection of all the predecessor acaryas, and we find that our humble attempt has been successful. We followed the principles especially explained by Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura in his commentary on the Bhagavad-gita verse beginning vyavasayatmika buddhir ekeha kuru-nandana. According to this instruction of Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, it is the duty of a disciple to follow strictly the orders of his spiritual master. The secret of success in advancement in spiritual life is the firm faith of the disciple in the orders of his spiritual master. The Vedas confirm this:

yasya deve para bhaktir yatha deve tatha gurau

tasyaite kathita hy arthah prakasante mahatmanah

[ 6.23]

"To one who has staunch faith in the words of the spiritual master and the words of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the secret of success in Vedic knowledge is revealed." The Krishna consciousness movement is being propagated according to this principle, and therefore our preaching work is going on successfully, in spite of the many impediments offered by antagonistic demons, because we are getting positive help from our previous acaryas. One must judge every action by its result. The members of the self-appointed acarya's party who occupied the property of the Gaudiya Matha are satisfied, but they could make no progress in preaching. Therefore by the result of their actions one should know that they are asara, or useless, whereas the success of the ISKCON party, the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, which strictly follows guru and Gauranga, is increasing daily all over the world. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura wanted to print as many books as possible and distribute them all over the world. We have tried our best in this connection, and we are getting results beyond our expectations.

 

 

That is why we believe in rejecting both Iskcon and Iskcon Rehash Movement, both neglect the Mission of Srila Prabhupada. His Mission is Simple Living/ High Thinking. Live at home, worship Lord Chaitanya, Chant Hare Krishna, offer you food to Him, and Protect Children, Woman and Cows!

 

THAT IS THE MISSION OF SRILA PRABHUPADA! IT IS FOR EVERYBODY, THIS FACTION MAKING IS NOT HIS MISSION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you see that Woman, Children and Cows are not being protected, then you know you have missed Srila Prabhuapda's Mission, and you are seeing a bad cult. And if you see that a faction of bad men is being hailed as the new ritvik or guru, then you are also seeing a bad cult.

[Guest guest]

 

If he had written as you suggest "These 11 are Prabhupada's successor Acharya's" how many would have accepted?

But everyone DID accept them as the next successors, and these 11 claimed the letter authorized them to be successors even up till late 1980's.

 

In other words, the actual history is that they took this letter and told people it appointed them as guru successors, and enough people went along with it. They never used this letter to say they were appointed as ritviks.

 

So your argument that no one would have believed a forged letter that said these 11 are the next gurus is proven wrong. Even without such a forged letter they made that claim and 90% of the devotees believed it.

 

Further this letter is based on recorded conversations which anyone can listen to. The conversations said the exact same thing as the letter.

 

Prabhupada had already appointed these people as ISKCON leaders and GBCs. Why do you think he wouldn't appoint them as ritvik representative?

[suchandra]

 

But everyone DID accept them as the next successors, and these 11 claimed the letter authorized them to be successors even up till late 1980's.

 

In other words, the actual history is that they took this letter and told people it appointed them as guru successors, and enough people went along with it. They never used this letter to say they were appointed as ritviks.

 

So your argument that no one would have believed a forged letter that said these 11 are the next gurus is proven wrong. Even without such a forged letter they made that claim and 90% of the devotees believed it.

 

Further this letter is based on recorded conversations which anyone can listen to. The conversations said the exact same thing as the letter.

 

Prabhupada had already appointed these people as ISKCON leaders and GBCs. Why do you think he wouldn't appoint them as ritvik representative?

 

The problem is that many folks still believe a ritvik is something like an acarya, whereas the plain fact is that a ritvik representative is just someone who holds an office like those laymen who are on the jury at court. They do something important but are repleacable immediately.

Looks like many people are envious about the job of a ritvik priest.

Also in Narayana Swami's matha this discussion seems of great import since Narayana Swami has in 2 weeks his 86th appearance day.

 

http://www.purebhakti.com/articles/bvnemi_rtvik_part3.shtml

http://www.purebhakti.com/articles/jdv_rtvik_part1.shtml

http://www.purebhakti.com/articles/bvnemi_rtvik_part4.shtml

http://www.purebhakti.com/articles/bvnemi_rtvik_part2.shtml

[Mahadyuti]

 

But everyone DID accept them as the next successors, and these 11 claimed the letter authorized them to be successors even up till late 1980's.

 

In other words, the actual history is that they took this letter and told people it appointed them as guru successors, and enough people went along with it. They never used this letter to say they were appointed as ritviks.

 

So your argument that no one would have believed a forged letter that said these 11 are the next gurus is proven wrong. Even without such a forged letter they made that claim and 90% of the devotees believed it.

 

Further this letter is based on recorded conversations which anyone can listen to. The conversations said the exact same thing as the letter.

 

Prabhupada had already appointed these people as ISKCON leaders and GBCs. Why do you think he wouldn't appoint them as ritvik representative?

 

Good points. Most devotee's fell for the Zonal Acharya deviation, the minority, the ones with their heads screwed on who think for themselves, new that it was a deviation but were driven out of ISKCON by the authorities and their brainwashed clones.

 

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 95%; TEXT-ALIGN: left" cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top; WIDTH: 15%; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-ALIGN: right">FACT:</TD><TD style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">ISKCON gurus have opposed, oppressed and driven out many sincere Godbrothers and Godsisters.

('Where the ritvik People are Right, Jayadvaita Swami, 1996)

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

The mass would have fallen for just about ANYTHING if the corrupt leaders told them to do it. Just like they have fallen for the current "vote in a Guru" scam hook line and sinker!

[suchandra]

 

Message from IRM, Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:11 pm - surely an analysis that is spot on: "...Unfortunately due to frustration at what has happened in ISKCON, people just want to start their own mission.

 

But only an Acarya has both the ability and authorization to do that. And this is proven by the fact that whoever has attempted this has failed miserably. Not only have they given ISKCON a ‘free pass’ to do their nonsense, but they have not exactly set the world ablaze with their own ‘preaching’. Such one temple ‘mathas’ will eventually flounder and die out, whilst ISKCON will continue to destroy Srila Prabhupada’s legacy, in Srila Prabhupada’s name. Interestingly, even from a mundane example, one can see that the ‘Protestants’ also misused Luther’s actual mission to fix the Catholic Church to start their own separate independent churches, which today are ‘entangled in their mini missions’, with over 20,000 such churches, and even after 500 years, their adherents are still outnumbered almost 3 to 1 by the Catholics, whilst allowing the Catholic church to peacefully continue with what they are supposed to consider the biggest deviation.

 

It is correct that this is exactly what ISKCON wants. That all the ritviks dissipate and dis-unite, whilst starting dozens of tiny competing missions, fighting each other for a dwindling band of dissident followers, rather than that they unite and come together to permanently stay in ISKCON’s face, exposing, harassing, educating, enlightening and fixing the problems. This is why they always tell us – start your own temples, organize your own festivals, why come and ‘leech’ of us. But it is THEY who have leeched of Srila Prabhupada, and will not allow them to get away with it. It is the duty of anyone who considers himself a follower of Srila Prabhupada to defend and fight for him in this manner. And yes, it's correct that if we do not do this, then we are accomplices to this crime, because “evil prevails when good men do nothing”, and “if you are not part of the solution you ARE the problem”.