Iskcon Rehash Movement dies ki jai!, Good Riddance to a Bad Thing

[Guest guest]

 

The message of the Final Order by IRM is being distributed since 15 years.

Who within ISKCON doesnt know it by now word by word?

 

 

No offence Prabhu but that is an absurd thing to say. The majority of ISKCON members including congregation HAVE NEVER EVEN READ ONE SENTANCE OF THE FINAL ORDER!

 

How can they?....... they will be banned, ostrocised from the community, persecuted and possibly beaten for it. They are heavily brainwashed to think that by even looking at a BTP or TFO they will go to hell. In those kind of conditions I will be suprised if 10% of modern ISKCON members have even given it a glance let alone know it word for word.

[Guest guest]

First off, I'll start with your title- 'who are you to criticize?' LOL yes indeed, who am I to criticize the mighty, supposedly intelectual IRM?! I should just witness all the nonsense that goes on within their ranks and bow down in silence. Lets go over this question again ... 'who are you to criticize?'. Now suppose someone from ISKCON asked you this same question, I suppose you would just turn your back and walk away, eh? Are you one of those that has been <B><I>brainwashed</B></I> with the IRM crap that anyone who dares to question the IRM must himself be brainwashed?

 

Let me ask you one simple question ... what the hell has this group achieved in the years it has existed? By your own admission, in post 51 you said <B><I>"The majority of ISKCON members including congregation HAVE NEVER EVEN READ ONE SENTANCE OF THE FINAL ORDER!"</B></I>. Then I ask you what the hell has the IRM done in all these years if they have not even been able to do this much?!!! They've simply wasted the money and resources of other people.

 

And finally on to your accusation that I'm envious. You're funny!!!

<B>Why would I be envious of someone that has achieved next to nothing?!</B> All this man has done is spread useless propaganda. If I had to be envious, I would be envious of someone like Madhu Pandit Das. At least, he has built a magnificient temple unlike the man you seem to worship, the self-proclaimed emperor of IRM, who has a big <font size=8><B> ZERO </font></B> on his list of ahievements. Now that Madhu pandit told your hero to get the heck out of his way, you gonna go around calling Madhu Pandit envious as well?

 

You should take a cue from <B>GuestCBhakti</B> and abandon this nonsense called IRM, because not only is IRM's days numbered but as it sinks, it will take you down with it.

 

 

IRM is the only organisation who is ACTUALLY DOING SOMETHING about the corruption by actively distributing literature proving the Prabhupada is the Guru of Iskcon. Who else is doing that? Are you doing that? Are you facing crazed brainwashed false guru supporters and putting up with their abuse? No you are just fault finding and doing nothing. The IRM devotee's are putting up with abuse from demons to tell the innocent sincere devotees in Iskcon that Prabhupada is their Guru and that the whole guru system in ISKCON is a hoax.

 

They may not be perfect devotees, but their mission is perfect to establish Prabhupada's authorised system back into Iskcon. They are engaging in the most valuable service to Prabhupada, and all you can do is critisize? Who's side are you on?

[Guest guest]

 

All this man has done is spread useless propaganda.

 

You call spreading the fact that Prabhupada is the rightful Diksha Guru of ISKCON "useless propaganda." Prabhupada's position is 'useless propaganda'?

To speak the truth about bogus gurus asurping Prabhupada's seat, "useless propaganda"?

 

Prabhupada said we should speak the truth for the welfare of all, and you call that useless propaganda.

 

And as for questioning the IRM, I would leave the IRM in a heartbeat if I had a valid suspision that they were in any way bogus. To question the IRM is fine I have no problem with it, but your quick to call them every name under the sun and condemn them and I have yet to hear a valid reason for doing so!

 

I mean ISKCON guru's have commited every atrocity to commit, so there's a valid reason to say they are bogus, but what have the IRM done? Please enlighten me to there crimes againced humanity.

[Guest guest]

Well first of all, let me tell you that others outside the IRM have done far more to establish Srila Prabhupada's postition than the IRM leader. So what use is he? But in the end, he wants to pose as the leader. Won't work, welcome to the real world boy!

 

Do you read what's going on in the IRM world? Your leader goes to Singapore & then Bangalore trying to stop the initiations. Since when did he become the autority to decide how initiations are given? And not surprisingly, he was put in his place.

 

When I said Madhu Pandit das has built a splendid temple and what has your leader done, you start ranting about the ISKCON gurus .. nice way to dodge my question. Let's see what you come up with now.

 

 

You call spreading the fact that Prabhupada is the rightful Diksha Guru of ISKCON "useless propaganda." Prabhupada's position is 'useless propaganda'?

To speak the truth about bogus gurus asurping Prabhupada's seat, "useless propaganda"?

 

Prabhupada said we should speak the truth for the welfare of all, and you call that useless propaganda.

 

And as for questioning the IRM, I would leave the IRM in a heartbeat if I had a valid suspision that they were in any way bogus. To question the IRM is fine I have no problem with it, but your quick to call them every name under the sun and condemn them and I have yet to hear a valid reason for doing so!

 

I mean ISKCON guru's have commited every atrocity to commit, so there's a valid reason to say they are bogus, but what have the IRM done? Please enlighten me to there crimes againced humanity.

[Guest guest]

 

At least, he has built a magnificient temple unlike the man you seem to worship, the self-proclaimed emperor of IRM, who has a big <font size=8><B> ZERO </font></B> on his list of ahievements..

 

You are impressed by building big temples but you hate with a vengeance an organisation who's sole aim is to reinstate Prabhupada as the Diksha Guru is his beloved Iskcon. By the way I notice that yourself along with bhaktachris and many guests use the same large letters..... are you are all the same person? Yes I think so, its the protect a cow man, your not fooling anyone, well not me anyway.

 

 

because not only is IRM's days numbered but as it sinks, it will take you down with it.

 

The IRM is far from numbered and if it "takes me down" from worshiping a bogus Iskcon guru (which I was before reading BTP) to the lotus feet of Srila Prabhupada so be it. You call that being taken down? Your a very strange individual.

[Guest guest]

Is there any point in continuing? After all being said & done, you think we're all the same person!

 

Here's a simple suggestion ... mail the forum admin and have him check out the IP's that these posts came from. If they're all the same person, it should have the same IP.

 

Anyways, I give up with you. I feel sorry for you but hey, it's a free world. If you wanna follow the IRM and it's misguided individuals, there's not much I can do except to hope that you'll eventually realize your mistake. My suggestion is that you just stick to reading the books of Srila Prabhupada and carefully consider what he says. That can eventually lead you to Krsna. The IRM leader and his followers can't. Act before it's too late. Hare Krishna.

 

Please forgive me if I offended you in any way. It was never my intention to do so but sometimes it's necessary to strongly state certain things.

 

 

You are impressed by building big temples but you hate with a vengeance an organisation who's sole aim is to reinstate Prabhupada as the Diksha Guru is his beloved Iskcon. By the way I notice that yourself along with bhaktachris and many guests use the same large letters..... are you are all the same person? Yes I think so, its the protect a cow man, your not fooling anyone, well not me anyway.

 

The IRM is far from numbered and if it "takes me down" from worshiping a bogus Iskcon guru (which I was before reading BTP) to the lotus feet of Srila Prabhupada so be it. You call that being taken down? Your a very strange individual.

[Guest guest]

 

Please forgive me if I offended you in any way. It was never my intention to do so but sometimes it's necessary to strongly state certain things.

 

No offence Prabhu! you havnt offended me. I just dont understand your hatred toward the IRM. You have not given me any strong reason to back this up. If there is any corruption, I will be the first to leave, please let me know.

[bhaktachris]

IRM has as it's "position paper" a letter written, used and created by Tamal Krsna.

 

That is why it will never be accepted as a mission, or bonafide thing.

 

Judge a thing by it's result, although the letter says "ritvik" (tamals word) they did not use it to become representatives, they used that letter to show that they were named as succesors. If you follow Prabhupada's rule "Judge a thing by the result" and you see that no one more and no one less became zoned out acharyas, then you MUST REJECT THE LETTER! Just like so many do now.

 

I spoke recently to to so called "living gurus" and asked them what they thought about tamal's letter that got him and the other 10 into the zoned out acharya position, they both said the same thing......... "that letter was tamal's creation, written by him for purpose" what is that purpose? To do just what it did! It showed 11 men that were named, from the many many who were doing before, who would not go along with the conspiracy to just those 11. It might have said ritvik, but judge it by who and what those named became.

 

IRM is stupid, and anyone who accepts the letter written by tamal to be any thing "authorized" or "bonafide" is also stupid.

 

I dont want to be stupid, i follow Prabhupada's rule, i see that no one became zoned out accept those on the Hit LIst, and therefore i think that this letter is just what 2 so called gurus think, a letter written by tamal to get his and the other 10 on a list of names, a Perfect Faction.

 

Sankarshana guru, and Bhaktimarga guru were the ones who agreed with me. If you and IRM accept this Hit List as bonafide, i am baffelled by your stupidity. You are less intelligent than a couple of false gurus.

[Guest guest]

 

IRM has as it's "position paper" a letter written, used and created by Tamal Krsna.

 

That is why it will never be accepted as a mission, or bonafide thing.

 

Judge a thing by it's result, although the letter says "ritvik" (tamals word) they did not use it to become representatives, they used that letter to show that they were named as succesors. If you follow Prabhupada's rule "Judge a thing by the result" and you see that no one more and no one less became zoned out acharyas, then you MUST REJECT THE LETTER! Just like so many do now.

 

I spoke recently to to so called "living gurus" and asked them what they thought about tamal's letter that got him and the other 10 into the zoned out acharya position, they both said the same thing......... "that letter was tamal's creation, written by him for purpose" what is that purpose? To do just what it did! It showed 11 men that were named, from the many many who were doing before, who would not go along with the conspiracy to just those 11. It might have said ritvik, but judge it by who and what those named became.

 

IRM is stupid, and anyone who accepts the letter written by tamal to be any thing "authorized" or "bonafide" is also stupid.

 

I dont want to be stupid, i follow Prabhupada's rule, i see that no one became zoned out accept those on the Hit LIst, and therefore i think that this letter is just what 2 so called gurus think, a letter written by tamal to get his and the other 10 on a list of names, a Perfect Faction.

 

Sankarshana guru, and Bhaktimarga guru were the ones who agreed with me. If you and IRM accept this Hit List as bonafide, i am baffelled by your stupidity. You are less intelligent than a couple of false gurus.

 

 

 

 

Hare Krsna Bk Chris

 

The result is that Tamal and Co rejected the clear order of Guru. I judge it and see it clear. Ritvic order never gave more than intermeadiary secretarial duties to the first eleven ritvics. Judgements made; order was good, reciever failed to exicute as ordered. Ritvic yes! An order from Guru does not losse potency because a bad disciple has obused it. Come on!

 

An instruction given is not minimized by the default of the reciever. If the reciever drops the ball it is the perfect throwers fault? Never. Guru's word are not cheap, they have spiritual energy. By following Prabhupada's words we will be energized.

 

You also forget that these conversations took place over an extended period of time with numerous eye witnesses too, that were not, nor have ever been on the payrol of ISKCON, Tamal or otherwise. Your passion is not serving you well, this is strawman that you have posted. No maturity, no intelegents in your words.

 

You say a word that is in our books is made up by Tamal, It's just ludricus.

 

Look at the number of conversations on the folio, so much missing in 1977, by mathmatical comparision we should have double the conversation tapes in 77 than we had in 76. From 76 on back we see a yearly increase. 77 stops dead in it's tracks. LESS than 76. Where are all the missing tapes. It is known that the tape played incessantly recording Srila Prabhupada. Why less tape in the year of His samadhi? You over look to much do to passion, slow down and relax.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das

[bhaktachris]

I will never accept it!

 

I have read the only transcriptions of that day when Prabhupada named the Hit List. Twice he said "no" to the whole idea. And again the result was 11 guys named and 11 guys missusing the instruction to be "ritvik", a word that i only see behind tamal's name. I know that in our books there is words that are close, but no ritvik, that is solely tamals' just like the letter.

 

The whole conversation of july 7th is crazy! Tamals tells Prabhupada that they decided to stop initiations. That right there showed me that tamal was doing things that Prabhupada had not authorized. Then tamal starts babbling and not ending sentences.

 

And what was the "final order", not what Krishna Can't says, not what tamal wrote, NO! The final order was from Prabhupada! He said Let me go! Let me go on Parikrama on Ox Cart to Govardhana Hill on Govardhana Puja day! And he said that would CURE him!

 

So we have done this for Prabhupada, we took him to Govardhana Puja day many times on Ox Cart. Right from Gjita Nagari where Prabhupada was going to fulfill his mission. By fixing the Gurukula, stoping the inititations of 'Show Bottle Brahamanas" showing how Cow Protection is his mission, and growing food, and making our own things needed for life.

 

This is for sure! Prabhupada's Final Order is not something written by tamal, that got tamal and co. into their faction of 11 zoned out acharyas. Prabhupada's Final Order was related to Cows, and he said that was the CURE!

 

When we start to agree that the letter written was a forgery for 11 men to get what they got from that letter, and that Prabhupada had a Real Final Order, and we all try to understand how that final order can CURE us and the movement and in turn the world. Then we will be following Prabhupada and his mission.

 

Prabhupada's spoken final order: Let me go, on Parikrama to all the Tirthastanas, in Bullock Cart, to Govardhana Hill, on Govardhana Puja day, drinking milk. I think this will cure me.

[Guest guest]

 

I will never accept it!

 

I have read the only transcriptions of that day when Prabhupada named the Hit List. Twice he said "no" to the whole idea. And again the result was 11 guys named and 11 guys missusing the instruction to be "ritvik", a word that i only see behind tamal's name. I know that in our books there is words that are close, but no ritvik, that is solely tamals' just like the letter.

 

The whole conversation of july 7th is crazy! Tamals tells Prabhupada that they decided to stop initiations. That right there showed me that tamal was doing things that Prabhupada had not authorized. Then tamal starts babbling and not ending sentences.

 

And what was the "final order", not what Krishna Can't says, not what tamal wrote, NO! The final order was from Prabhupada! He said Let me go! Let me go on Parikrama on Ox Cart to Govardhana Hill on Govardhana Puja day! And he said that would CURE him!

 

So we have done this for Prabhupada, we took him to Govardhana Puja day many times on Ox Cart. Right from Gjita Nagari where Prabhupada was going to fulfill his mission. By fixing the Gurukula, stoping the inititations of 'Show Bottle Brahamanas" showing how Cow Protection is his mission, and growing food, and making our own things needed for life.

 

This is for sure! Prabhupada's Final Order is not something written by tamal, that got tamal and co. into their faction of 11 zoned out acharyas. Prabhupada's Final Order was related to Cows, and he said that was the CURE!

 

When we start to agree that the letter written was a forgery for 11 men to get what they got from that letter, and that Prabhupada had a Real Final Order, and we all try to understand how that final order can CURE us and the movement and in turn the world. Then we will be following Prabhupada and his mission.

 

Prabhupada's spoken final order: Let me go, on Parikrama to all the Tirthastanas, in Bullock Cart, to Govardhana Hill, on Govardhana Puja day, drinking milk. I think this will cure me.

 

 

The only reasonable item here is the neglect of the supposed disciples refusing to save Srila Prabhupada. Yes, then it is murder in the eyes of Krsna, glad I'm me and not you know who.

 

But the rest is incoherent dribble, I just read the July 7 1977 conversation as I sat here, from a first printing, no changes. The next printing was abidged I was told when I bought these books from the archives.

 

Anyway, your assigning imagined meaning to the 'No'. It's to ridiculous to continue with you because your thinking is very adolesent and imature. And obviously the converstion is geared toward the ritvic conclusion. No place where Prabhupada is giving them anything more, representative/secretary. I don't give a darn what they inturn did. Order/ideology was given. There were a lot more conversations explaining the correct position ritvic, just stolen. You fail commonsence 101.

 

You just seem to like the attention that your incoherant wavings get. I'm done here with you. I'm looking for someone else, I will know him when I see him. Thanks CBr

[bhaktachris]

 

You just seem to like the attention that your incoherant wavings get. I'm done here with you. I'm looking for someone else, I will know him when I see him. Thanks CBr

 

 

Does that mean that you reject Prabhupada's Final Order? Did you notice that my post spoke of his final order, which he said was the CURE? Do you accept that Prabhupada had an idea in mind for the LIFE of a devotee, and which he was going to implement and show to the world at Gita Nagari, but was not allowed by the snake man? Do you know that this work he was going to establish at Gita Nagari was the fixing of all that was broken in the movement? Namely stoping the abuse in Guru Kula, stoping the initiations of "Show Bottle Brahmanas", showing how to live off the land, and Protect Cows and Women.

 

When you know that this was his final orders and desires to fulfill, then you understand why the 11 wanted their names on a Hit List and why they did not allow Prabhupada to make it to Gita Nagari.

 

They all did not continue this work that Prabhupada said was his mission left unfulfilled. And you want to say that he wanted those guys to be his representative! hahahahhahahahahahahhaha

 

I will not accept that Prabhupada is responsible for the abuse that took place. I see that he said NO! Twice to the idea of making a faction. I understand that when he did point out names, that those names were the ones who were identified on a Hit List only.

 

And i will live my life trying to fulfill Prabhupada's Final Order. He will go to Govardhana Hill on Govardhana Puja Day Riding Bulllock Cart Drinking Milk continuously with me and my Cow Protector Friends. You can reject his program, his final order all you want. And you can go ahead and try to promote those 11 all you want too.

 

 

 

 

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Founder/Acharya of the International Sociey of Krishna Consiousness Final Orders Denied by "Senior Disciples" and Identifying "Ravana" and to stay with is "Suicide"

http://protectacow.typepad.com/goshalla/2005/01/a_c_bhaktivedan.html

 

The awful truth is that Srila Prabhupada has had a desire to take part in "Simple Living/High Thinking" for many many years, it is a "continuous order" for us to follow. But during the final days of his manifest to material vision mission, he demanded, wished, pleaded and argued with his leading disciples, to assist him to again take part in "Simple Living/High Thinking". Giving his final order to go on Parikrama to Govardhana Hill, on Govardhana Puja Day travelling in a Bullock Cart. But the disciples did not fulfill that order. Below are some excerpts and after is a link to get the final days transcripts.

 

 

Prabhupada: And therefore I say, (laughs) DON'T KEEP ME LOCKED UP. You do your duty as I have trained you and LET ME BE FREE

Prabhupada: ALL SERIOUSLY CONSIDER THIS SUBMISSION AND LET ME GO! [On Parikrama in Bullock cart to Govardhana Hill on Govardhana Puja day]

 

Prabhupada: I wish that you GBC manage very nicely and consider I am dead and LET ME TRAVEL TO ALL THE TIRTHASTHANA. Without any responsibility. If I become recovered from this malady I shall come back and then I shall die in, what is it when the dead body is there, let them bring to Mayapura and Vrndavana. I am thinking in this way. Bring little medicine and no medicine, little milk, and travel one place to another and if there is death, what is the lamentation? My age is ripe. IN THE OPEN AIR AND BULLOCK CART or during daytime, eh? Or you can say semi-suicide, although living what consider me dead for the time. You manage and nowadays there is in India ample sunshine.

 

Prabhupada: BUT I THINK I SHALL BE CURED. [bY THE PARIKRAMA].

 

Tamala Krsna: Prabhupada says he thinks he will be cured by the parikrama.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Idea?? I'm Varnasrama Caturbahu, I have nothing, if not the IDEA and order to impliment DVD as Prabhupada said in 74. This DVD 'idea' is my very lifes mission. And the totality of my preaching to devotees for 34 yrs. Idea?? This is the only reason for me to come on line is looking for those whom also have this 'Idea'

 

You now say this you? We have another tread on this form were we are discusing this idea, please come and be reasonable. Its in Spiritual Discussion, come and be nice. No strawmen.

 

As for the title 'The final order', just marketing stratigy.

 

DVD was spoke about intensly for yrs by Srila Prabhupada. That is the 'why' Guru was killed. Also a part of 'why' is the trerminal adolescents of Prabhupada's disciples, advancement had/is stagnated in ISKCON and Gaudiya Maths.

 

The finality of this DVD order is no one can make real advancement if they ignor it. Personally and collectivly. in our centers.

 

CB-R

[Guest guest]

Thank you for your sober response prabhu. As aspiring Vaisnavas, it's important that we respect and tolerate each other.

 

The main reason I turned against the IRM (not that I was in favor of them at any time but at least I was a little sympathetic toward them many years back) was because they just became more & more political. They've now simply become a mine field of aparadha. Just look at their BTP magazine. Do Vaisnavas write that kind of stuff? No, they don't. None of our Acaryas <B>EVER</B> wrote any nonsense like that. And then going to festivals and trying to disrupt them. These are not the actions of gentlemen. These are actions of those that are not civilized.

 

One attracts people to one's movement or one's cause by presenting nice philosophy, the philosophy of Krishna Consciousness. This can attract the minds of people. Publishing obnoxious magazines and behaving obnoxiously doesn't convince people, rather it drives people away because they think you're a fanatic. In the process, it drives people away from ISKCON altogether because they end up thinking the Hare Krishnas are crazy, fighting amongst each other. Srila Prabhupada worked very very hard to attract people to the temples and his movement. The IRM folks are trying hard to keep people away. I fail to see how that is a <B>service</B> to Srila Prabhupada. Perhaps you would care to clarify that? <B><I>To me, ISKCON is more important than the IRM.</B></I>

 

If establishing the proper Guru means that one needs to try to keep people away from Krishna, and thereby weaken spiritual progress, then one should just say <I>no thanks</I> and walk away! It's better to just chant and be humble instead. All in my humble opinion. I hope you will consider what I have said carefully with an open mind and without prejudice. Hare Krishna prabhu.

 

P.S: I wanted to change the username to something not abrasive but I retained it so you will know it is the same person posting.

 

 

No offence Prabhu! you havnt offended me. I just dont understand your hatred toward the IRM. You have not given me any strong reason to back this up. If there is any corruption, I will be the first to leave, please let me know.

[Guest guest]

 

Thank you for your sober response prabhu. As aspiring Vaisnavas, it's important that we respect and tolerate each other.

 

The main reason I turned against the IRM (not that I was in favor of them at any time but at least I was a little sympathetic toward them many years back) was because they just became more & more political. They've now simply become a mine field of aparadha. Just look at their BTP magazine. Do Vaisnavas write that kind of stuff? No, they don't. None of our Acaryas <B>EVER</B> wrote any nonsense like that. And then going to festivals and trying to disrupt them. These are not the actions of gentlemen. These are actions of those that are not civilized.

 

One attracts people to one's movement or one's cause by presenting nice philosophy, the philosophy of Krishna Consciousness. This can attract the minds of people. Publishing obnoxious magazines and behaving obnoxiously doesn't convince people, rather it drives people away because they think you're a fanatic. In the process, it drives people away from ISKCON altogether because they end up thinking the Hare Krishnas are crazy, fighting amongst each other. Srila Prabhupada worked very very hard to attract people to the temples and his movement. The IRM folks are trying hard to keep people away. I fail to see how that is a <B>service</B> to Srila Prabhupada. Perhaps you would care to clarify that? <B><I>To me, ISKCON is more important than the IRM.</B></I>

 

If establishing the proper Guru means that one needs to try to keep people away from Krishna, and thereby weaken spiritual progress, then one should just say <I>no thanks</I> and walk away! It's better to just chant and be humble instead. All in my humble opinion. I hope you will consider what I have said carefully with an open mind and without prejudice. Hare Krishna prabhu.

 

P.S: I wanted to change the username to something not abrasive but I retained it so you will know it is the same person posting.

 

 

Hare Krsna Guest-IRM

 

I just would like to support a couple of your statements here.

 

1. I agree that no one should go to anyone elses party/festivals/temple and use it to promote there version, case in point is the distribution of that mag the IRM puts out at Ratha Yatra. And constant bagering or promo work at an ISKCON Sunday feast.

 

2. The magazine is like a comic book, no class in Vainava circles. For less inteligent, maybe? Whatever! But I do enjoy it at a particular level. It isn't all together rejectable. But I do not pass it out, or support it's printing.

 

3. No ksatriya oversite to the preaching activities of the IRM has aloud the direction you so apply portray, to ensue. Yes, more emnity is not the answer. Like children they do not know how to make a friendlier presentation and seem to make more problems for themselves with the negative backlash that they are encapsulated in now.

 

But it can be fixed. Not without a ksatriya.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja

[Guest guest]

Dear Caturbahu prabhu,

 

I'm happy that you agree wth me. I appreciate very much the fact that you present your views without a tinge of aparadha against those that differ from your view. This is the sign of a true Vaisnava and someone who is advanced in his understanding of Vaisnava philosophy.

 

I was very surprised when I first read the BTP magazine and thought "are these people really followers of Srila Prabhupada?". I agree with you that a capable leader is necessary to make any kind of practical reform. You insist on having a ksatriya leader. However, aren't Brahmanas supposed to lead? Please excuse my ignorance if this sounds like a stupid question but I'm not very well versed with the concepts of, as you call it- DVD

 

 

Hare Krsna Guest-IRM

 

I just would like to support a couple of your statements here.

 

1. I agree that no one should go to anyone elses party/festivals/temple and use it to promote there version, case in point is the distribution of that mag the IRM puts out at Ratha Yatra. And constant bagering or promo work at an ISKCON Sunday feast.

 

2. The magazine is like a comic book, no class in Vainava circles. For less inteligent, maybe? Whatever! But I do enjoy it at a particular level. It isn't all together rejectable. But I do not pass it out, or support it's printing.

 

3. No ksatriya oversite to the preaching activities of the IRM has aloud the direction you so apply portray, to ensue. Yes, more emnity is not the answer. Like children they do not know how to make a friendlier presentation and seem to make more problems for themselves with the negative backlash that they are encapsulated in now.

 

But it can be fixed. Not without a ksatriya.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja

[Guest guest]

 

Dear Caturbahu prabhu,

 

I'm happy that you agree wth me. I appreciate very much the fact that you present your views without a tinge of aparadha against those that differ from your view. This is the sign of a true Vaisnava and someone who is advanced in his understanding of Vaisnava philosophy.

 

I was very surprised when I first read the BTP magazine and thought "are these people really followers of Srila Prabhupada?". I agree with you that a capable leader is necessary to make any kind of practical reform. You insist on having a ksatriya leader. However, aren't Brahmanas supposed to lead? Please excuse my ignorance if this sounds like a stupid question but I'm not very well versed with the concepts of, as you call it- DVD

 

 

is brahman, ksatriya is material leader. Though preaching is a braminical venue, time place and circumstance MAY need ksatriya oversite. Mostly assistance to arrange opportunity. If anything is out of wack, like people are getting in fights, then it is ksatriya's duty to intervine where and when nessisary.

 

Only a neohpite would preach like IRM does, they should have senior brahmans/ksatriyas in charge that would know rudimentry things such as time, place and circumstance. But they have good intentions and a willingness to act, just no leadership. Material and maybe spiritual(brahman).

 

Even preaching content is under scrutiny by ksatriya, as much as ksatriya is under scrutiny by brahman to function in the maner of arranging society in such a way as to give members protection, spiritual and material, balance in varna, equanimity amoung members, social service, engagement based on guna and karma to everyone,..... So many things I expect from myself, like father to his children.

 

The contemporary example of Srila Bhaktivinod Thakur immediately comes to mind. You know the story of Him arresting a bogi yogi in His district claiming to be Bhagavan, The Suprem Personality of Godhead? If some one could post maybe?

 

Neither is free to run a-muck that way, you have the executive and the clergy interacting to protect DVD society. Sometimes in the begining it might be from one onother. As we are already seeing today. I'm trying to protect you(collective) from an other 30 yrs of negligents in this DVD mater, but who will listen? Please now do.

 

No mind, come to Alachua, agree and we will straighten it all out, as poeple. Remember the internet is just to get some idea to act. Then move!

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna.

 

I must respond and say that the contents of BTP are full of quotes from Prabhupada and just facts stating that Prabhupada wanted a Ritvik system. It is all true so I dont see how stating the truth is apharada. The truth is the truth. Its a bit tabloid yes, but everything is true so it does not fall into the category of apharadha.

 

BTP simply states that ritvik system is what Prabhupada authorised, the current system is unauthorised and uses quotes from Prabhupada and quotes from the GBC themselves proving it. Thats the truth.

 

Secondly I dont think that peacefully distributing BTP at festivals is causing disruption, actually it is when false guru supporters become enraged and beat and abuse IRM members that causes the disruption.

 

So I dont really think any of your points are valid as the truth is the truth and Prabhupada did say that it must be spoken for the welfare of all.

 

 

 

 

Thank you for your sober response prabhu. As aspiring Vaisnavas, it's important that we respect and tolerate each other.

 

The main reason I turned against the IRM (not that I was in favor of them at any time but at least I was a little sympathetic toward them many years back) was because they just became more & more political. They've now simply become a mine field of aparadha. Just look at their BTP magazine. Do Vaisnavas write that kind of stuff? No, they don't. None of our Acaryas <B>EVER</B> wrote any nonsense like that. And then going to festivals and trying to disrupt them. These are not the actions of gentlemen. These are actions of those that are not civilized.

 

One attracts people to one's movement or one's cause by presenting nice philosophy, the philosophy of Krishna Consciousness. This can attract the minds of people. Publishing obnoxious magazines and behaving obnoxiously doesn't convince people, rather it drives people away because they think you're a fanatic. In the process, it drives people away from ISKCON altogether because they end up thinking the Hare Krishnas are crazy, fighting amongst each other. Srila Prabhupada worked very very hard to attract people to the temples and his movement. The IRM folks are trying hard to keep people away. I fail to see how that is a <B>service</B> to Srila Prabhupada. Perhaps you would care to clarify that? <B><I>To me, ISKCON is more important than the IRM.</B></I>

 

If establishing the proper Guru means that one needs to try to keep people away from Krishna, and thereby weaken spiritual progress, then one should just say <I>no thanks</I> and walk away! It's better to just chant and be humble instead. All in my humble opinion. I hope you will consider what I have said carefully with an open mind and without prejudice. Hare Krishna prabhu.

 

P.S: I wanted to change the username to something not abrasive but

retained it so you will know it is the same person posting.

[Guest guest]

Dear Bhakta,

 

I respectfully disagree and don't see how we can make any more progress with this conversation now that we know each others take on this whole affair, so I'll stop here. As they say, to each his own. Hare Krishna prabhu.

 

 

Hare Krishna.

 

I must respond and say that the contents of BTP are full of quotes from Prabhupada and just facts stating that Prabhupada wanted a Ritvik system. It is all true so I dont see how stating the truth is apharada. The truth is the truth. Its a bit tabloid yes, but everything is true so it does not fall into the category of apharadha.

 

BTP simply states that ritvik system is what Prabhupada authorised, the current system is unauthorised and uses quotes from Prabhupada and quotes from the GBC themselves proving it. Thats the truth.

 

Secondly I dont think that peacefully distributing BTP at festivals is causing disruption, actually it is when false guru supporters become enraged and beat and abuse IRM members that causes the disruption.

 

So I dont really think any of your points are valid as the truth is the truth and Prabhupada did say that it must be spoken for the welfare of all.

[bhaktachris]

Hey, i just thought of something. Those of you who accept the letter written by tamal, that helped him by naming him and 10 others into the faction of zoned outs....................

 

You still have hansadhutta to do your ritvik work for Prabhupada. So now you can distribute books and tell people that they can go out and see hansadhutta and maybe satsvarupa too (he has said that he does not mind that some of his disciples are "ritviks") so now everything is all perfect for you. Ofcourse you don't have 11 middle men, but you have 1 or 2.

 

And since you guys all think that the letter written by tamal is "authorized" then you must accept hansadhutta and satsvarupa too right?

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Hey, i just thought of something. Those of you who accept the letter written by tamal, that helped him by naming him and 10 others into the faction of zoned outs....................

 

You still have hansadhutta to do your ritvik work for Prabhupada. So now you can distribute books and tell people that they can go out and see hansadhutta and maybe satsvarupa too (he has said that he does not mind that some of his disciples are "ritviks") so now everything is all perfect for you. Ofcourse you don't have 11 middle men, but you have 1 or 2.

 

And since you guys all think that the letter written by tamal is "authorized" then you must accept hansadhutta and satsvarupa too right?

 

 

I have head about you guys from my friend in NY, he says your inteligent, but I am amazed how you miss the concept of those first 11 being DISQUALIFED to represent Prabhupada now. So what you say is moot.

 

Initiations by ritvic is all at this time nul and void, disfuntional movement can't initiate on behalf of guru. Nor should they install deities, I think Krsna is not there, link is broken. New functioning DVD movement, then new ritvic qualified person will show and be test over a long period of time. Then ritvic can happen. Much time to heal is needed.

 

Hare Krsna, CB-R

[suchandra]

 

I have head about you guys from my friend in NY, he says your inteligent, but I am amazed how you miss the concept of those first 11 being DISQUALIFED to represent Prabhupada now. So what you say is moot.

 

Initiations by ritvic is all at this time nul and void, disfuntional movement can't initiate on behalf of guru. Nor should they install deities, I think Krsna is not there, link is broken. New functioning DVD movement, then new ritvic qualified person will show and be test over a long period of time. Then ritvic can happen. Much time to heal is needed.

 

Hare Krsna, CB-R

 

These are good points and based upon facts. Today we find nobody within ISKCON to even following the simple vow of celibacy. Without being linked to the pure representative of the disciplic succession, Srila Prabhupada, by actually following his orders, how can there be spiritual joy and happiness which is a basic quality of Vaishnava? Instead we find in the leading department all kind of questionable personalities who even draw up laws to become a GBC resolution, which are clearly based on karmi knowledge and not upon sastra.

[Guest guest]

 

And since you guys all think that the letter written by tamal is "authorized" then you must accept hansadhutta and satsvarupa too right?

 

Sorry but they FELL DOWN. Its a really simple point and the fact that your struggling with that is really quite alarming.

[bhaktachris]

 

Sorry but they FELL DOWN. Its a really simple point and the fact that your struggling with that is really quite alarming.

hahahaha! i am not struggling with anything related to the 11 so called ritvik dudes! i was given a List by Tamal and i understand that the List is people not to go to for ANYTHING!

 

I am just asking you (those who think the letter written by tamal on july9,77, is "authorized") what you will do now that Hansadhutta is callling himself a "ritvik representative of the acharya" he says that is his role on his website, so you (those who think the letter by tamal is authorized) should send your bhaktas to him for getting initiated to Prabhupada.

 

Or Satsvarupa, he also is accepting sort of disciples in a ritvik fashion now.

 

So there you go! Those 2 fell down, and fell down again, but now they fell up! So send all the bhaktas to them! ahahhahahahahahaha

 

Hansadutta's site is down now, but he advertises himself as being a Ritvik, and since he is on the list written by tamal that got the 11 into that perfect faction, which lead to what we have now, and it is "authorized" by Prabhupada (not very likely) why are'nt you (who are so easily duped) following that order? Send all newbies to Hansadutta! (don't send them to anyone, tell them that the letter from july9th is a forgery or List, and you will be leading them properly, there is no need for it, Prabhupada will never be not present)

[bhaktatraveler]

 

hahahaha! i am not struggling with anything related to the 11 so called ritvik dudes! i was given a List by Tamal and i understand that the List is people not to go to for ANYTHING!

 

I am just asking you (those who think the letter written by tamal on july9,77, is "authorized") what you will do now that Hansadhutta is callling himself a "ritvik representative of the acharya" he says that is his role on his website, so you (those who think the letter by tamal is authorized) should send your bhaktas to him for getting initiated to Prabhupada.

 

Or Satsvarupa, he also is accepting sort of disciples in a ritvik fashion now.

 

So there you go! Those 2 fell down, and fell down again, but now they fell up! So send all the bhaktas to them! ahahhahahahahahaha

 

Hansadutta's site is down now, but he advertises himself as being a Ritvik, and since he is on the list written by tamal that got the 11 into that perfect faction, which lead to what we have now, and it is "authorized" by Prabhupada (not very likely) why are'nt you (who are so easily duped) following that order? Send all newbies to Hansadutta! (don't send them to anyone, tell them that the letter from july9th is a forgery or List, and you will be leading them properly, there is no need for it, Prabhupada will never be not present)

 

Hare Krsna BK Chris

 

Let me put it this way. Forgiveness is for everyone. But if a sannyasi has his hand in between the legs of a 12 yrs old then he will not be aloud to cheat and say 'sorry, I will be good'. NO:mad2: he has done this, now let him get married. And be sanctioned as is fit. Especially by the father and King!

 

Same applies to ritvic, even more. We/I will never allow in my Kingdom/Temple this kind of cheating. No fallen ritvics are ever reinstated. NEVER. So it is addvised that we are careful whom we call representative of the Guru. The 11 are dead and buried, with stakes in their hearts. But I would support/protect their right to still chant the holy name in shame and seclution.

 

As Srila Prabhupada gave conditions for the GBC to be replaced, I take these same conditions and simply apply to ritvic. These are not unconditional appointments for life, oversite/observance by Ksatriya/brahman is still there, always vigiant. Discresion is the better part of valor, what kind of King/TP turns a blind eye, or has not vision?

 

The problem is now and alway was, the fallen condition of the CONGREGATIONS. Blind faith. No inteligent discrimination abilities. A very hard and bitter pill to swallow for the victims. But you did it to yourself!

 

I saw, I tried, but who will listen to the new bhakta in 74? Still I try. Who will listen? One? Two? I hope to reach two thousand, TODAY. I love hunting the big stuff. LOL

 

I have it said before, and I'll say it again. The 'list' is a list of shame on the CONGREGATION. The congregation chose by support and adherence to these monkeys. They were always to be replaced from 1974 on, when the first call to DVD was made then by Prabhupada, READ THE CONVERSATIONS. It was the congregation that continued to defy Guru. Guru worked with what was there. Those imfamous 11 were supported by you/members. The ritvic must be from the most addvanced section of devotees. You dummies accepted the 11 in that light in 74, never me. Never me, not in 74, not in 2007.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja