Vegan vs vegetarian

[Guruvani]

However, if you take the law of averages, there have been a lot more evil meat-eaters in the world than vegetarians.

 

Sure, you can dig up two or three vegetarians that were despots or bad guys, but if you get objective, you will find that 99.99% of all serial killers, rapists and environmental polluters were all meat-eaters.

 

Overall, there are a lot more evil meat-eaters than vegetarians.

 

Let's not let a couple of bad apples spoil the entire crop.

 

The violence and bloodshed involved in meat-eating is horrific and despicable.

[OmHari]

Haribol Theist,

 

How long have you been vegan?

[theist]

Hare Krishna,

 

Since the early 70's. First for health reasons as I can't digest milk products and then later I learned how the cows were mistreated.

 

But I should add that I would fall prey to a youghurt craving a couple times a year. Then in the mid eighties I dropped even that.

 

One more twist is maha-prasadam from the Deities plate. Last night a friend who was doing the arati at the local Iskcon templ e brought me a garland and a couple of simple wonderfuls. The sweetballs went straight down the hatch. I will always honor maha-prasad. That means only taking a little but with gratetude. I am also diabetic and shouldn't have sugar but to refuse a little maha-prasada especially offered to me with love by a friend would be too offensive for even me so I ate them with relish. Yumm.

 

I do wish devotees would boycott milk from unprotected cows. there is so much cruelty in the dairy industry which is a kissing cousin to the meat industry.

 

How about you?

[Amlesh]

A very difficult thing to understand... the Dietary stuff.

[OmHari]

 

Hare Krishna,

 

Since the early 70's. First for health reasons as I can't digest milk products and then later I learned how the cows were mistreated.

 

I do wish devotees would boycott milk from unprotected cows. there is so much cruelty in the dairy industry which is a kissing cousin to the meat industry.

 

How about you?

 

Thats a very thoughtful on your part as I can imagine how it is nowadays, even the milk we get can be from mistreated cows, so you are right, we must be careful about offenses, as Hari loves cows. As a devotee we hohor the prasadam, and at times we only hope that things would get better and leave it on Hari because he is the ultimate Go-pala, the protector of mother cows.

I do visit temple often and honoring prasadam is one of the things I just cant resist.

 

At times it makes me sick to think about how cows are mistreated in the west and inspite of the law,even in India as well.

I have been born and brought up in a vegetarian family and as I grow up I see things changing in all possible ways, like it is in Kalyuga, doesnt get much better. I try to keep myself aware so that I dont make offenses but I know I have often, so just searching the way out of this... I do use vegan things at times, I try to abstain from products that may contain traces of animal, etc.In fact right now,I cant describe how I feel about use of animals in all we have here.

 

Ah and yes, especially building temples etc is a good thing, but better idea would be where to keep our cows safe and take them to open fields to graze, and really care as much as we care our deities, if devotees are so much into dairy , should be aware about treatment of farmed cows for milk, that would please our Hari. Because in vedic times, cows were milked NOT like nowadays, for only more and more production and treating her has machine ,No NO NO it was NOT like this before. They were milking her with LOVE, Oh Hari.

[theist]

 

A very difficult thing to understand... the Dietary stuff.

 

Yes but animal slaughter is easy to understand Amlesh isn't it. It is demonic. All milk cows are sent to be slaughtered when their milk production falls below a certain level.

 

The male calves are sent immediately to be slaughtered for veal by the dairy farmers because the males will never produce milk. These demons should be shot and not supported and thus encouraged to continue by devotees giving them Krishna's money.

[smaranam]

 

Yes but animal slaughter is easy to understand Amlesh isn't it. It is demonic. All milk cows are sent to be slaughtered when their milk production falls below a certain level.

 

The male calves are sent immediately to be slaughtered for veal by the dairy farmers because the males will never produce milk.

 

I agree with this at least at the individual level, that is if consumers are buying milk and products from unprotected cows. Of course , temples are a different thing totally out of this.

 

 

The dairy industry of unprotected cows is totally out of hand. Its not like the Vedic society where a cow gives milk because she happens to have a calf. Its the other way around- she has a calf because humans have to get milk, ice cream, creamy creamy desserts and tiramisus.

 

I am almost vegan now, but pray for the unprotected cows and make a manasi offering of milk sweets to Krshna.

 

For young growing children, raw-milk sources, cow-protecting farms, and as a last resort organic milk can be options ? At least organic farmers let the cows graze on lush green grass in the open. Go Mata can surely feed her human calves.

 

However, the misconception that a lot of dairy is required for kids has to be removed. Too much dairy can lead to adverse effects too. I haven't read much about it but there are doctors that advice against dairy for kids.

 

Yes, its hard, and who am i to judge ?

 

Sarvetra sukhi na santu

sarve santu niramaya

sarve bhadrani pashyantu

ma kashchit dukha mapnayat

Om shanti shanti shantih

O Lord, May all be happy

May all be free from ailments

May we see what is auspicious

May no one be subject to miseries

May there be a Peace! Peace! Peace! Everywhere.

[theist]

 

I agree with this at least at the individual level, that is if consumers are buying milk and products from unprotected cows. Of course , temples are a different thing totally out of this.

 

 

Why do you think this? I think temples should set the best examples for the community. Especially from a group that preaches about cow protection as a prime necessity for humankind.

 

First protect the cows in all respects then preach about it. "Example is better than precept."

[theist]

 

For young growing children, raw-milk sources, cow-protecting farms, and as a last resort organic milk can be options ? At least organic farmers let the cows graze on lush green grass in the open. Go Mata can surely feed her human calves.

 

 

Raw or organic or not they still sell the male calves to be slaughtered for veal and slaughter the milk givers when they stop producing.

[theist]

 

Yes, its hard, and who am i to judge ?

 

Krishna has given you intelligence to make such judgments. It is the duty of the head to direct the actions of the body. You have a duty to judge which actions lead to God consciousness and those that lead to hell and to instruct others.

[smaranam]

Thanks for your guidance TheistJi. That does give me confidence while talking to others.

 

Ideally of course, a Vegan diet is perfect when cows are not protected.

Milk , ghee if at all should come from protected happy cows only.

We can simply pray for the other cows - hoping their numbers will decline.

 

I do not understand the need for ghee frying in today's world. Plant oil is good enough for healthy cooking.

 

Just wanted to be cautious about taking milk away from children who have been raised to drink milk, although research has been showing that they don't necessarily need it as a prime source of calcium and protein.

 

I suppose B12 is all vegans should worry about.

Children whose parents have raised them vegan are lucky - they won't miss the frosting on cakes.

Hare Krshna

[theist]

Yes you are right about b-12. Many vegans neglect this to their detriment. I take it as a supplement. 5000 mcg sublinqualy.

 

Many meat eaters and milk drinkers run low in this important vitamin also as their guts don't absorb what little is in food. This is the reason for placing it under the tongue.

[Amlesh]

You are right Theist, the killing shows mercilessness; unconsciousness being the cause.

I still remember the days.. not that long ago where cows were treated very kindly.. but that mood of kindness seems to have disappeared in my country.

[theist]

 

You are right Theist, the killing shows mercilessness; unconsciousness being the cause.

I still remember the days.. not that long ago where cows were treated very kindly.. but that mood of kindness seems to have disappeared in my country.

Amlesh, it has never been the case in my country. Cows, animals in general, have always been victimized in the West. There is a very grand cover-up in the USA as to what animal slaughter really is. The illusion here is very very thick.

 

It is such a fight just to get people to consider there may be a better way, a way based on compassion instead of cruelty.

[Amlesh]

I can imagine, how tough it tough it would be out there.

I guess, that's why Srila wanted so much that the Bhaktas be assembled, viz. Association.

This Forum is great.

[canyenero]

If anybody is a devotee of Krishna and is a vegan ( not that there is anything wrong with it) and says drinking milk and eating other dairy products is a sin, then think what lord Krishna did always eating butter, drinking milk etc. There is a difference between killing a cow and millking it. It does not feel any pain when getting milked but imagine if you were in that situation about to be some ones meal.

[canyenero]

I'm afraid I disagree with Ayodha how could Hitler reach enlightenment when he killed so many people. God does not just look at your diet, even though he was a vegetarian what was the point when he killed so many people. To me there is no difference between Jesus and Krishna.

[theist]

 

If anybody is a devotee of Krishna and is a vegan ( not that there is anything wrong with it) and says drinking milk and eating other dairy products is a sin, then think what lord Krishna did always eating butter, drinking milk etc. There is a difference between killing a cow and millking it. It does not feel any pain when getting milked but imagine if you were in that situation about to be some ones meal.

 

You have missed the point entirely. It is not the milk drinking it is supporting the dairy industry witch is a limb of the meat industry that is ignorant and cruel.

 

Drink all the milk you want but accept it from protected cows. You need to do some investigation into how dairy cows are treated. Please do that.

[theist]

 

I'm afraid I disagree with Ayodha how could Hitler reach enlightenment when he killed so many people. God does not just look at your diet, even though he was a vegetarian what was the point when he killed so many people. To me there is no difference between Jesus and Krishna.

 

Hitler was NOT a vegetarian. Lord will this myth never die. His favorite food was a type of German or Austrian sausage.

 

The difference between Jesus and Krishna is the difference between Father and Son.

[Amlesh]

 

The difference between Jesus and Krishna is the difference between Father and Son.

Short and Sweet:)

[Smiley]

First of all, relying on what Jesus or Hitler did is not germane to a discussion on principles of Sanatana Dharma. One should follow a guru. If there is no guru then I think sound reasoning should be employed. This is my reasoning:

 

Dairy cows have to be repeatedly impregnated to keep up their milk production. What is to be done with all the male calves which are born as a result of those pregnancies? The answer is that they are kept in tiny veal cages so that they can not move during their entire short and miserable lives - keeping their muscles soft so that the veal is tender. To just go to the market and buy some milk - organic or not - is to be complicit in veal production. That is simply a fact. Those calves are brought into existence because people like dairy. Offering milk produced in that way is offering the produce of terrible violence against cows. Milk production = veal production. If that is not so then tell me what is done with all the male calves that are produced by the impregnated cows. If you have verified knowledge of a milk producer that has found a way around this then please let me know about it. I don't think Shree Vishnu wants me to offer Him the milk of tortured cows any more than He wants me to offer Him the veal which is a direct byproduct of that milk production. Cow torture is not cow protection.

http://www.milksucks.com/dump.asp

Edited July 19, 2009 by Smiley

[theist]

 

[...]This is my reasoning:

 

Dairy cows have to be repeatedly impregnated to keep up their milk production. What is to be done with all the male calves which are born as a result of those pregnancies? The answer is that they are kept in tiny veal cages so that they can not move during their entire short and miserable lives - keeping their muscles soft so that the veal is tender. To just go to the market and buy some milk - organic or not - is to be complicit in veal production. That is simply a fact. Those calves are brought into existence because people like dairy. Offering milk produced in that way is offering the produce of terrible violence against cows. Milk production = veal production. If that is not so then tell me what is done with all the male calves that are produced by the impregnated cows. If you have verified knowledge of a milk producer that has found a way around this then please let me know about it. I don't think Shree Vishnu wants me to offer Him the milk of tortured cows any more than He wants me to offer Him the veal which is a direct byproduct of that milk production. Cow torture is not cow protection.

http://www.milksucks.com/dump.asp

 

Right on point.

[dev singh]

the ideal life would be to eat to survive without causing harm to any creature. this is imposible, for us to live something has to be eaten, that's where plants come in .

[raghu]

 

the ideal life would be to eat to survive without causing harm to any creature. this is imposible, for us to live something has to be eaten, that's where plants come in .

 

Just FYI, Swami Vivekananda whose quote appears in your sig file, was a meat-eater.

[gHari]

 

Krishna has given you intelligence to make such judgments. It is the duty of the head to direct the actions of the body. You have a duty to judge which actions lead to God consciousness and those that lead to hell and to instruct others.

Are we rewriting the Bhagavad-gita now?

 

People will always be filled with doubt on the mental platform. Should I do this? Should I do that? Lemme weigh the pros and cons and drive my own chariot. After all, it is my chariot! And I know better.

 

It seems to me all this mental trickery is leading you away from God consciousness (apa-radha).