Vegan vs vegetarian

[cbrahma]

I think the connection between offering milk to Krsna and killing calves is a bit of leap otherwise you indict a huge contingent of lacto-vegetarian vaisnava devotees.

 

 

I have plenty of b-12. I take sublingual tablets of methyl-cobalamine, 5000 mcg. each at least 4 times a week. The methyl form of cobalimine is best becasuse it has been shown to protect nerve cells. It strengthens the myelin sheath.

 

I would much prefer taking an extremly cheap supplement over killing calves anyway.

 

We discussed b-12 in the health section a couple months ago.

[Guruvani]

One thing I found out is that I don't like soy products anymore.

I used to use tofu quite a bit in my cooking because it's so much effort to make milk curd, but I have stopped using tofu or consuming soy products.

 

Tofu has an enzyme inhibitor which makes it hard to digest for humans.

Something in the soy actually destroys some of the digestive enzymes we need in our stomach to digest food.

 

A few weeks ago I tried some soy milk that I saw at the supermarket.

That stuff gassed me up so bad that I think I caused a small hole in the ozone layer.

My digestion was messed up for several days after I drank that half gallon of soy milk.

 

I have heard it before, but I am more convinced than ever that soy is not really a good food for humans.

I know it has lots of protein and good things, but if you can't digest the stuff and end up with a bad case of gas, then it is not very good for human consumption.

 

One thing I noticed is that if I fry the tofu and put it in a juicy subji with lots of spices it digests easier, but that raw soy milk was a GAS!

 

Soy is livestock food as far as I am concerned.

The Peanut is so much better than the soybean.

[Beggar]

Tempeh and miso are the ways most East Asians consume soybeans. These products are fermented and therefore predigested. In East Asian diets tofu and soymilk are used very occaisionally because they are hard to digest.

[theist]

I have used soy products alot for decades with no problems that I noticed. But just this year I seem to have developed an allergy or something to soy. Actually to protein in general. Recently I began to take papaya enzymes with every protein meal and it has fixed the problem but I am still leary about the soy.

 

Seeds also contain an enzyme? that blocksthe breakdown of protein until it iscontact with water whichdisbles that enzyme. Anther example of the inconceivable genious of Krsna allowing seeds to lay dormant for years or decades in soil until water is added and then growth begins.

[theist]

 

I think the connection between offering milk to Krsna and killing calves is a bit of leap otherwise you indict a huge contingent of lacto-vegetarian vaisnava devotees.

 

You may think it is a leap but it is an undeniable fact that veal is made from male calves who are rejected by the dairy industry because they will never produce milk.

 

If you think offering it to Krsna will cover the problem then go ahead. Now a protected family cow's milk offered to Krsna is benefical to the cow no doubt but I don't accept that as carrying over to the commercial meat/dairy industry.

 

If Krsna loves cow so much and wants their protection how could I ever please Him with a glass of milk that came at the expense of so much suffering to the animal. I just can't accept that.

 

One man's opinion that's all.

[cbrahma]

If you are to consider cash flow as incurring karmic responsibility, then you shouldn't buy vegetables or soy-products at the market, because at the corporate-holding level all the food industry enterprises such as slaughterhouses, farms etc are often owned by the same entity. Buying soya-milk by the same logic is supporting cow slaughter.

Pregnancy of the cow is necessary for increased milk production. It is not the pregancy, however, that kills the calf. That is a byproduct of the dairy industry not a direct consequence. In fact all agri-business is karmically corrupt in this way. You cannot be sure that the dollars you spend on soya beans are not going to pay for milk production. It is all connected, as indeed is the web of karma.

[Guruvani]

 

You may think it is a leap but it is an undeniable fact that veal is made from male calves who are rejected by the dairy industry because they will never produce milk.

 

If you think offering it to Krsna will cover the problem then go ahead. Now a protected family cow's milk offered to Krsna is benefical to the cow no doubt but I don't accept that as carrying over to the commercial meat/dairy industry.

 

If Krsna loves cow so much and wants their protection how could I ever please Him with a glass of milk that came at the expense of so much suffering to the animal. I just can't accept that.

 

One man's opinion that's all.

 

I always hate to use commercial milk, but as a food source milk is so important. I have tried to even get away from using milk for that reason, but if I don't take milk regularly my whole disgestive system starts to shut down. The calcium in milk is vital nutrient for the body, but some people try to get tha calcium from eating powdered coral or some other calcium source.

I am not so sure if it works as well, but I did get a bottle of some coral calcium one time and took it all.

For me, I need milk to keep up my digestive system.

 

Nowdays, at least in some areas you can get commercial milk from dairies that do not use growth hormones or any such things that the big commerical dairies use.

The milk I get now comes for a dairy that feeds the cows only organic and lets them roam pastures of organic grass. They do not confine the cows to a nasty holding area where they walk around ankle deep in manure all day.

 

The dairy claims to be attentive to the comfort and welfare of the cows.

I would imagine that when a cow become useless for commercial purposes that the dairy then sends them off to slaughter, but at least while the cow is around an producing milk they keep the animals very nicely.

 

Organic milk costs about twice as much as regular milk, but I will pay the price anytime to have the organic milk.

 

In our area it is available in the local supermarket as of recently and I don't have to go to a health food store to get in now.

 

Support the organic milk industry!

Don't by regular commercial milk!

 

The milk I am getting now comes from High Meadow Organic dairy in Boulder, Colorado.

It's really good milk.

[Guruvani]

 

I always hate to use commercial milk, but as a food source milk is so important. I have tried to even get away from using milk for that reason, but if I don't take milk regularly my whole disgestive system starts to shut down. The calcium in milk is vital nutrient for the body, but some people try to get tha calcium from eating powdered coral or some other calcium source.

I am not so sure if it works as well, but I did get a bottle of some coral calcium one time and took it all.

For me, I need milk to keep up my digestive system.

 

Nowdays, at least in some areas you can get commercial milk from dairies that do not use growth hormones or any such things that the big commerical dairies use.

The milk I get now comes from a dairy that feeds the cows only organic feeds and lets them roam pastures of organic grass. They do not confine the cows to a nasty holding area where they walk around ankle deep in manure all day.

 

The dairy claims to be attentive to the comfort and welfare of the cows.

I would imagine that when a cow become useless for commercial purposes that the dairy then sends them off to slaughter, but at least while the cow is around an producing milk they keep the animals very nicely.

 

Organic milk costs about twice as much as regular milk, but I will pay the price anytime to have the organic milk.

 

In our area it is available in the local supermarket as of recently and I don't have to go to a health food store to get in now.

 

Support the organic milk industry!

Don't by regular commercial milk!

 

The milk I am getting now comes from High Meadow Organic dairy in Boulder, Colorado.

It's really good milk.

[suchandra]

I t would be interesting to investigate at which point the killing of cows actually starts. If the governments pass a tax law for farmers which is so tough to hardly survive that actually a farmer is forced to sell his cows otherwise he would go straight into flat broke along with his whole family it is actually not the farmer who kills cows but the government which passes such crazy making laws.

Same in India - now Hindus are being blamed to sell their holy cows to Muslims who do nothing but kill them and sell the leather so that sinful Europeans can have their leather shoes made from India's holy cows. But if we look closer it is the governmental laws who enforce people to do these sinful activities in order to not run into total indebtedness what is according Canakya Pundit never acceptable for humane living.

[theist]

 

I always hate to use commercial milk, but as a food source milk is so important. I have tried to even get away from using milk for that reason, but if I don't take milk regularly my whole disgestive system starts to shut down. The calcium in milk is vital nutrient for the body, but some people try to get tha calcium from eating powdered coral or some other calcium source.

I am not so sure if it works as well, but I did get a bottle of some coral calcium one time and took it all.

For me, I need milk to keep up my digestive system.

 

Nowdays, at least in some areas you can get commercial milk from dairies that do not use growth hormones or any such things that the big commerical dairies use.

The milk I get now comes for a dairy that feeds the cows only organic and lets them roam pastures of organic grass. They do not confine the cows to a nasty holding area where they walk around ankle deep in manure all day.

 

The dairy claims to be attentive to the comfort and welfare of the cows.

I would imagine that when a cow become useless for commercial purposes that the dairy then sends them off to slaughter, but at least while the cow is around an producing milk they keep the animals very nicely.

 

Organic milk costs about twice as much as regular milk, but I will pay the price anytime to have the organic milk.

 

In our area it is available in the local supermarket as of recently and I don't have to go to a health food store to get in now.

 

Support the organic milk industry!

Don't by regular commercial milk!

 

The milk I am getting now comes from High Meadow Organic dairy in Boulder, Colorado.

It's really good milk.

 

So life is better for cows on that farm but do they sell the male calves to the veal makers? Never heard of one that didn't. If not what do they do with them? How about a cow once milk production is low to zero. Does she graze out her days in peace or is she sold to the slaughterhouse? These are important questions I feel.

 

As for calcium the most assorbable form is Calcium Citrate. I supplement with that plus magnesium boron and vit d. Boron @3mg greatly increases the ability of estrogen to move calcium into the bones.

[Guruvani]

 

So life is better for cows on that farm but do they sell the male calves to the veal makers? Never heard of one that didn't. If not what do they do with them? How about a cow once milk production is low to zero. Does she graze out her days in peace or is she sold to the slaughterhouse? These are important questions I feel.

 

 

 

I have never agreed that milk from cows that would someday be slaughtered is somehow unacceptable.

The Holy Cow is still holy, even if some demons kill it someday.

 

I have always thought that we should accept cows milk as it is the dharma of cows to supply milk to human society.

That is the Vedic idea anyway, but a lot of people would say that all the milk is meant for the calves and humans are ripping off the cows.

 

Well, that is not the Vedic version.

 

That a cow is destined to be slaughtered does not render the milk itself evil.

The only evil is in killing the cow, not taking it's milk.

 

Let mother cow make her offering to God and human society.

Don't let the fact that some demon is going to kill her someday stop us from taking cows milk.

 

Cows are in the mode of goodness and so is the milk.

That the cow is going to be killed someday doesn't change that.

[Redsox]

 

This is news to me. I thought meat was a more efficient food source, which is why carnivores eat less often. That makes sense because it's harder to get food that runs away from you and has to be killed. Herbivores eat all day long (graze).

 

Okay , maybe an illustration or two will help. yes? The number of joules taken from sunlight and passed on up the ladder in a ecosystem are probably just hypothetical and used to make the illustration easier to understand.

 

As you can see from the second illustration, you get more out of being a secondary consumer than a tertiary consumer, so on and so forth. You get more out of eating plants, than you get from eating animals.

[Redsox]

 

.

And for those of us who are not on the vaisnava level then I will choose ahimsa and the principles of cow protection over Indian cooking with dairy products and the insane violence of commercial milk any day.

 

The problem here is not milk. The problem is the corporate world that is trying to handle the industry in a cost effective manner with no desire to uphold the values of basic morality.

 

No offense, but I find your position on this to be a bit selfish. You try to avoid drinking milk and in effect avoid the karma associated with these killings, but this avoidance doesn't really help the cows. Your share of milk is just used by another person or thrown to waste at the end of the day.

[Redsox]

 

Plants are conscious living entities. Consciousness means feelings. Consciousness is not dependent on a presence of a nervous systems like animals have. not long ago mechanistic scientists denied that animals have feelings too, and they were later proven wrong.

 

actually based on the Vedic understanding plants have a higher level of consciousness than fish.

 

I don't buy it. Consciousness is a tricky matter. You say it has to do with "feelings" , but there is no justification for that. If I say no, there is no justification for that either.

 

So what am I saying? I am saying you are wrong.

[cbrahma]

Feeling physical pain in the way we feel it requires a nervous system. But who's to say that consciousness, even primitive consciousness is limited to only those kind of senses.

 

 

 

I don't buy it. Consciousness is a tricky matter. You say it has to do with "feelings" , but there is no justification for that. If I say no, there is no justification for that either.

 

So what am I saying? I am saying you are wrong.

[theist]

 

The problem here is not milk. The problem is the corporate world that is trying to handle the industry in a cost effective manner with no desire to uphold the values of basic morality.

 

No offense, but I find your position on this to be a bit selfish. You try to avoid drinking milk and in effect avoid the karma associated with these killings, but this avoidance doesn't really help the cows. Your share of milk is just used by another person or thrown to waste at the end of the day.

 

Yes I am selfish. It's true I don't want the karma. It's also true I don't want to see these other living beings suffer. I also don't want to meat eaters to receive the karma they will by. It's a vicious cycle you know, eat and be eaten. There is good reason to believe that the cows in the slaughterhouses today were the meat eaters of yesterday.

 

So you are thinking that I should start drinking milk or something because someone else will drink it anyway? That is not very logical. It is not how business is done. When demand drops the producers drop production.

 

I also spend time arguing against the practice of animal killing elsewhere and here I speak up against commercial milk while trying to remember peoples sensitivity on this issue. Sentiment should be coordinated with sound science. Why should cows and calves be slaughtered just so that you can drink milk?

 

BTW it has long been proven that plants have feelings. Your nervous system argument is incorrect. You may wish to look into the work of Jagadish Chandra Bose who proved it scientifically in the 1890's. Do a google and see for yourself.

 

It is also a fact that meat eaters and milk drinkers cause the death of many many more plants that vegetarians. What do you think those cows billions of cows live on?

[Redsox]

No , my point was that if you *really* care, you will lead a campaign to stop the atrocities in Corporate America.

 

And Jagdish Chandra Bose experiments? - What a bunch of hoopla . There is no established relation between cell membrane potential and "feelings".

 

He found that plants grow with beautiful music. What is beautiful pleasant music? A person might like Arnold Shoenberg's new expressionist music, I might like mozart, another person might detest all of them and only like Hare krishna chanting. Being a Hare krishna , some one might find only that to be pleasant, if the plant grows to some other music , then from the perspective of this hare krishna , it might just be growing due to an effect of unpleasant music.

 

His data may correlate with what he is saying about 'feelings' but it does not show any connection of "feelings" to membrane potential or some other sort of physical phenomena.

Just because something is his opinion, does not make it true.

 

He is not krishna to know whether they have feelings or not. We have to really look at these "scientific findings" with a bit of skepticism

[Redsox]

 

Hitler was a vegetarian. Jesus ate fish.

 

Ravana was a vegetarian. So was Gandhi. Dalai Lama eats meat. Point?

[Redsox]

 

Feeling physical pain in the way we feel it requires a nervous system. But who's to say that consciousness, even primitive consciousness is limited to only those kind of senses.

 

Since when is Feeling= Consciousness?

 

A yogi does not feel anything when his body gets immolated in fire. Are you saying there is no "consciousness" there?

[theist]

 

No , my point was that if you *really* care, you will lead a campaign to stop the atrocities in Corporate America.

 

What a silly statement. I do what I do and am responsible for it.If I can influence another through logic and example I will be pleased.

 

" then lead a campaign to stop the atrocities in Corporate America." I used to think like that...in the late sixties lol. get real.

 

"And Jagdish Chandra Bose experiments? - What a bunch of hoopla . There is no established relation between cell membrane potential and "feelings".

 

Again in the late sixties I saw a demonstration of some device he made on TV. Electrodes were hooked up to a plant and someone was given a pair of scissors and told toclip a leaf off the plant. As this person walked towards the plant the plant register a violent reaction which was taken as fear.

 

They stopped the man before he cut anything. He was then told to water the plant and the plant registered an opposite response. On some level they sense the intention of the person approaching and react.

 

And what about you? Do you think that when you are separated from your body (brain and nervous system) at death that you will no longer have feelings.

 

You don't accept it and that's ok by me. But it is a fact that you have no science to disprove it. So on what basis do you make a claim of knowledge on this subject?

[cbrahma]

Exactly. Being vegetarian doesn't amount to much in itself.

 

Ravana was a vegetarian. So was Gandhi. Dalai Lama eats meat. Point?

[cbrahma]

I said that entities without nervous systems are still conscious and might have other senses. Made no simplistic equation between feeling and consciousness.

 

 

Since when is Feeling= Consciousness?

 

A yogi does not feel anything when his body gets immolated in fire. Are you saying there is no "consciousness" there?

[Redsox]

 

I said that entities without nervous systems are still conscious and might have other senses. Made no simplistic equation between feeling and consciousness.

 

Maybe. By the way, I cut up a midsize plant the other day, the branches were growing everywhere in the room. Yea I am ruthless, but when I took the branches and put them in other pots, they started growing into new plants.

Universe works in mysterious ways. Our judgements are meaningless. No one knows except krishna.

[Redsox]

 

Exactly. Being vegetarian doesn't amount to much in itself.

 

How do you know? Jesus was very virtuous , if he ate fish, it might have not amounted to much bad karma. Ravana was arrogant , even if he did not have the animal killing karma , he still had karma for killing alot of people.

 

Being a vegetarian helps you stay away from the bad karma associated with animal killings. If you murder everything and leave the animals alone, you are still going to jail.

[cbrahma]

Prabupada said

After all, even many animals such as pigeons and monkeys are vegetarian, so becoming a vegetarian is in itself not the greatest accomplishment.

 

 

How do you know? Jesus was very virtuous , if he ate fish, it might have not amounted to much bad karma. Ravana was arrogant , even if he did not have the animal killing karma , he still had karma for killing alot of people.

 

Being a vegetarian helps you stay away from the bad karma associated with animal killings. If you murder everything and leave the animals alone, you are still going to jail.