Rising the Kundalini Force

[Guest guest]

Who wants to quarell? The HKs go out in the big wide world quarelling!

Trying hard to prove that everybody else's sampradaya is lower than theirs!

Their way and their God is above all others! They generate these quarells!

 

Of course Gauranga is great! Sankirtana is great. And so are other ways too! If you noticed kirtana is part of most Indian sampradayas, and devotional singing is part of almost all religions!

 

 

This is sankirtana as presented by Gauranga, Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu:

 

Glory to the Sri Krsna

sankirtana

, which cleanses the heart of all the dust accumulated for years and extinguishes the fire of conditional life, of repeated birth and death. This

sankirtana

movement is the prime benediction for humanity at large because it spreads the rays of the benediction moon. It is the life of all transcendental knowledge. It increases the ocean of transcendental bliss, and it enables us to fully taste the nectar for which we are always anxious.

 

 

O my Lord, Your holy name alone can render all benediction to living beings, and thus You have hundreds and millions of names like Krsna and Govinda

. In these transcendental names You have invested all Your transcendental energies. There are not even hard and fast rules for chanting these names. O my Lord, out of kindness You enable us to easily approach You by Your holy names, but I am so unfortunate that I have no attraction for them

 

 

One should chant the holy name of the Lord in a humble state of mind, thinking oneself lower than the straw in the street; one should be more tolerant than a tree, devoid of all sense of false prestige and should be ready to offer all respect to others. In such a state of mind one can chant the holy name of the Lord constantly.

 

 

O almighty Lord, I have no desire to accumulate wealth, nor do I desire beautiful women, nor do I want any number of followers. I only want Your causeless devotional service birth after birth.

 

 

O son of Maharaja Nanda [Krsna], I am Your eternal servitor, yet somehow or other I have fallen into the ocean of birth and death. Please pick me up from this ocean of death and place me as one of the atoms at Your lotus feet.

 

 

O my Lord, when will my eyes be decorated with tears of love flowing constantly when I chant Your holy name? When will my voice choke up, and when will the hairs of my body stand on end at the recitation of Your name?

 

 

O Govinda! Feeling Your separation, I am considering a moment to be like twelve years or more. Tears are flowing from my eyes like torrents of rain, and I am feeling all vacant in the world in Your absence.

 

 

I know no one but Krsna as my Lord, and He shall remain so even if He handles me roughly by His embrace or makes me brokenhearted by not being present before me. He is completely free to do anything and everything, for He is always my worshipful Lord unconditionally.

If you would fight, then don't box a shadow. These are the only eight shlokas left by Lord Gauranga, the inaugurator of the sankirtana movement. No one's heart can quarrel with this profound wisdom.

[Guest guest]

 

Again, you clearly don't belong to any sadhna discipline since you are making this discrimination. Only a fool can believe that he can actually have a siddhi from a deity without sadhna, that in itself combines higher elements of bhakti attachement to the deity along with other scientific vidhis adopted by the sages.

u agreed bhakti is a form of sadana and u also say the above contradictary statement which obviously shows ur inability to reason.

only a fool can believe to get siddhi from diety? who wants siddhi here ?only a fool runs after siddhi's(yogic powers)it is god that one should want.

 

That is the power of chanting in the right manner the Lord's name. Otherwise you can go on chanting the same name for another 40 years!!

It is your complete faith in this name.

right or wrong the sweetness in chanting the divine name is known to those who love god rather than who love powers.

i guess this statement by adi sankaracharya says all.....

 

 

BHAJA GOVINDAM BHAJA GOVINDAM BHAJA GOVINDAM MOODAMATE !

meaning: O FOOL ! CHANT GOVINDA'S NAME ,CHANT GOVINDA'S NAME

CHANT GOVINDA'S NAME.

HARE KRISHNA!

[Guest guest]

Chanting the Hare Krsna mantra is not merely the process of putting an end to the false conception of the self, but it goes beyond that, to the point where the pure spirit soul engages in his eternal, blissful, all-knowing activities in the loving service of God. This is the height of conscious development.

[Guest guest]

Reason, quarell and arguments is what the Gaudiyas do. that's why Sri Chaitanya had to say in this age of quarell.... he was probably fed up with their constant quarelling?

 

 

u agreed bhakti is a form of sadana and u also say the above contradictary statement which obviously shows ur inability to reason.

only a fool can believe to get siddhi from diety? who wants siddhi here ?only a fool runs after siddhi's(yogic powers)it is god that one should want.

 

Its not a matter of wanting. Its a matter of being able to come upto a level where you can have it. You don't want what you can't have.

 

 

right or wrong the sweetness in chanting the divine name is known to those who love god rather than who love powers.

i guess this statement by adi sankaracharya says all.....

 

BHAJA GOVINDAM BHAJA GOVINDAM BHAJA GOVINDAM MOODAMATE !

meaning: O FOOL ! CHANT GOVINDA'S NAME ,CHANT GOVINDA'S NAME

CHANT GOVINDA'S NAME.

HARE KRISHNA!

 

This statement of Shakracharya is meaningless for you! You don't follow Shakracharya and Prabhupada already contradicted this by saying that Lord Shiva came in the garb of Shakracharya to confuse the people.

Shankracharya was the biggest Vedantist and preached Advaita. You don't follow advaita!! Moreover Shakracharay had many siddhis too that you don't have! And you don't want because you don't have the know-how.

I thought we were discussing Kundalini in this thread, but the HKs don't gel in well with anything other than themselves. So why even bother starting such threads on HK backed forums?

[Guest guest]

 

....the only eight shlokas left by Lord Gauranga, the inaugurator of the sankirtana movement. No matter what anyone will say, or in spite of everything you may have heard, this is the HKs.

 

hmmm...no. This is the lack of candor I was referring to.

 

The HK is a lot more than just that. The HK considers it his business to "educate" non-HKs about the limitations of their religions and beliefs - limitations which are overcome in the HK system (naturally!). Otherwise, the HK would not poke his nose into a Kundalini thread and get into a discussion on how the HK definition of Bhakti is the best in the world. I fail to see the eight verses sanctioning this type of a stuck-up attitude.

 

If the HK is just about the eight verses, then

 

O almighty Lord, I have no desire to accumulate wealth, nor do I desire beautiful women, nor do I want any number of followers....

 

...repudiates everything Prabhupada and iskcon stand for except for the women part. Proselytizing and fInding a number of followers is an extremely crucial aspect of being a HK not to mention accumulating wealth for the organization to build opulent temples - again not something sanctioned in the eight verses.

 

Are you now willing to set asides pretenses and admit the HK is more than just the eight verses or do you still want to continue in your panacea of denial?

[Guest guest]

 

u agreed bhakti is a form of sadana and u also say the above contradictary statement which obviously shows ur inability to reason.

And How many dualities and contradictions the HK have in their systems, preachings and actions is truly amazing.

[Guest guest]

Well said!!! This is precisely what is happenning! Otherwise why would the HK bother to comment on kundalini thread? lol Obviosuly they feel everebody else needs to be educated as per their approach.

 

 

hmmm...no. This is the lack of candor I was referring to.

 

The HK is a lot more than just that. The HK considers it his business to "educate" non-HKs about the limitations of their religions and beliefs - limitations which are overcome in the HK system (naturally!). Otherwise, the HK would not poke his nose into a Kundalini thread and get into a discussion on how the HK definition of Bhakti is the best in the world. I fail to see the eight verses sanctioning this type of a stuck-up attitude.

 

If the HK is just about the eight verses, then

 

O almighty Lord, I have no desire to accumulate wealth, nor do I desire beautiful women, nor do I want any number of followers....

 

...repudiates everything Prabhupada and iskcon stand for except for the women part. Proselytizing and fInding a number of followers is an extremely crucial aspect of being a HK not to mention accumulating wealth for the organization to build opulent temples - again not something sanctioned in the eight verses.

 

Are you now willing to set asides pretenses and admit the HK is more than just the eight verses or do you still want to continue in your panacea of denial?

[Guest guest]

 

Reason, quarell and arguments is what the Gaudiyas do. that's why Sri Chaitanya had to say in this age of quarell.... he was probably fed up with their constant quarelling?

 

 

Its not a matter of wanting. Its a matter of being able to come upto a level where you can have it. You don't want what you can't have.

 

 

 

This statement of Shakracharya is meaningless for you! You don't follow Shakracharya and Prabhupada already contradicted this by saying that Lord Shiva came in the garb of Shakracharya to confuse the people.

Shankracharya was the biggest Vedantist and preached Advaita. You don't follow advaita!! Moreover Shakracharay had many siddhis too that you don't have! And you don't want because you don't have the know-how.

I thought we were discussing Kundalini in this thread, but the HKs don't gel in well with anything other than themselves. So why even bother starting such threads on HK backed forums?

 

did u ran out of stuff... Read what u wrote !!

[Guest guest]

thanks g hari

for quoting guranga prabu...that was inspiring.

 

hare krishna !

[Guest guest]

Run is not used in the past tense with 'did'. Did you even go to school?

Typical HK mentality.

 

 

did u ran out of stuff... Read what u wrote !!

[gHari]

Jnana from the cream of the Vedas, the Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.5.20-33:

 

SrI KarabhAjana replied: In each of the four yugas, or ages--KRta, TretA, DvApara and Kali--Lord Kezava appears with various complexions, names and forms and is thus worshiped by various processes.

 

 

In Satya-yuga the Lord is white and four-armed, has matted locks and wears a garment of tree bark. He carries a black deerskin, a sacred thread, prayer beads and the rod and waterpot of a brahmacArI.

 

 

People <B>in Satya-yuga</b> are peaceful, nonenvious, friendly to every creature and steady in all situations. <B>They worship the Supreme Personality by austere meditation and by internal and external sense control</B>.

 

 

In Satya-yuga the Lord is glorified by the names HaMsa, SuparNa, VaikuNTha, Dharma, Yogezvara, Amala, Izvara, PuruSa, Avyakta and ParamAtmA.

 

 

In TretA-yuga the Lord appears with a red complexion. He has four arms, golden hair, and wears a triple belt representing initiation into each of the three Vedas. Embodying the knowledge of worship by sacrificial performance, which is contained in the Rg, SAma and Yajur Vedas, His symbols are the ladle, spoon and other implements of sacrifice.

 

 

<B>In TretA-yuga</B>, those members of human society who are fixed in religiosity and are sincerely interested in achieving the Absolute Truth worship Lord Hari, who contains within Himself all the demigods. <B>The Lord is worshiped by the rituals of sacrifice taught in the three Vedas</B>.

 

 

In TretA-yuga the Lord is glorified by the names ViSNu, YajJa, PRznigarbha, Sarvadeva, Urukrama, VRSAkapi, Jayanta and UrugAya.

 

 

In DvApara-yuga the Supreme Personality of Godhead appears with a dark blue complexion, wearing yellow garments. The Lord's transcendental body is marked in this incarnation with SrIvatsa and other distinctive ornaments, and He manifests His personal weapons.

 

 

My dear King, <B>in DvApara-yuga</B> men who desire to know the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is the supreme enjoyer, <B>worship Him in the mood of honoring a great king, following the prescriptions of both the Vedas and tantras</B>.

 

 

"Obeisances to You, O Supreme Lord VAsudeva, and to Your forms of SaGkarSaNa, Pradyumna and Aniruddha. O Supreme Personality of Godhead, all obeisances unto You. O Lord NArAyaNa RSi, O creator of the universe, best of personalities, master of this cosmos and original form of the universe, O Supersoul of all created entities, all homage unto You."

 

 

O King, in this way people in DvApara-yuga glorified the Lord of the universe. In Kali-yuga also people worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead by following various regulations of the revealed scriptures. Now kindly hear of this from me.

 

 

In the age of Kali, intelligent persons perform congregational chanting to worship the incarnation of Godhead who constantly sings the names of KRSNa

. Although His complexion is not blackish, He is KRSNa Himself. He is accompanied by His associates, servants, weapons and confidential companions.

 

 

My dear Lord, You are the MahA-puruSa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and I worship Your lotus feet, which are the only eternal object of meditation. Those feet destroy the embarrassing conditions of material life and freely award the greatest desire of the soul, the attainment of pure love of Godhead. My dear Lord, Your lotus feet are the shelter of all holy places and of all saintly authorities in the line of devotional service and are honored by powerful demigods like Lord Siva and Lord BrahmA. My Lord, You are so kind that You willingly protect all those who simply bow down to You with respect, and thus You mercifully relieve all the distress of Your servants. In conclusion, my Lord, Your lotus feet are actually the suitable boat for crossing over the ocean of birth and death, and therefore even Lord BrahmA and Lord Siva seek shelter at Your lotus feet."

 

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the quotes from SB bhakta GHari.

- YK

 

 

Jnana from the cream of the Vedas, the ........."

[Guest guest]

 

Well said!!! This is precisely what is happenning! Otherwise why would the HK bother to comment on kundalini thread? lol Obviosuly they feel everebody else needs to be educated as per their approach.

oh thanks for reminding....people who love gods name must not dwell in the materialist world like who run after material happiness, who run after hapiness in swarga(heaven),or who run after siddhi's(powers).

Enjoy ur thread !

hare krishna !

[Guest guest]

 

Run is not used in the past tense with 'did'. Did you even go to school?

Typical HK mentality.

ok,gaudiyas,hk's u that,u this,now grammer,next punctuation?

see for ur self .....going for siddhi's...HA !

[sumedh]

 

What happened to your pumpkin head picture, you used to use as your avatara beginning last year?

 

You probably mistake me for someone else. I never used any picture as the avatara.

 

Rest of your reply is ... well ignorable.

[Guest guest]

Dear Souls

I The Follower Of Krishna Entered Into This Spiritual Discussions Thread Because I Was Not Satisfied Enough By Just Knowing About God's Existence.

 

I Wanted To Talk About Him,hear About Him,find Out Different Notions ,practices And Beliefs Among Various Practioners.

 

My Only Thought When I Entered Into Argument Was Only To Stress On God.in The Process I Lost It(afterall....to Err Is Human)

 

During The Whole Arguments,i Felt Anxious,anger,hurt,egoism And I Forgot My Sweet Lord! Alas !

 

I Have Learned My Lesson That Argument Leads To Personel Abuse

Which Inturn Causes Anger And Hurt.

 

Dear Yk, I Personally Apologise To U For Causing Anger,hurt,anxiousness, Taking Away Ur Precious Time, And Finding Fault With Ur Way Of Practice.

 

Krishna I Truly Love U !! And I Shall Never Cause Pain To Any Other Soul With My Words Or Deeds Anymore.

 

Thanks To U All For Enlighting Me !

Hare Krishna !

[Guest guest]

Good work, guest #67. It is a shame that such realizations are rare in the HK world.

 

Now perhaps, the Kundalini thread can stay on topic without bible bashers, hk bashers and others coming in to disrupt the flow.

[Guest guest]

Lmao One HK freaked out of his spiritual body!

 

ok,gaudiyas,hk's u that,u this,now grammer,next punctuation?

see for ur self .....going for siddhi's...HA !

[Guest guest]

ugh Sumedhji!

Sadly everything is ignorable to you, except the Bengali Gaudiya philosphy.

I'm amazed how so far the Gaudiyas haven't claimed that Krishna was Bengali and born in Mayapur?! In the whole wide Bhagwad Gita that Krishna discourced to Arjuna everything is ignorable to you except one one chapter on Bhakti Yoga. Even Srimad Bhagwatam has its own interpretations and commentary that does not justify the original verses. This is a fact. Sorry. There is nothing you can do except get annoyed and retaliate. But I repect your bhakti movement. I find nothing wrong with it. Except for the God positioning agenda and puting my sampradaya philosophy over others agenda! I wish you were a simple bhakta lots zealing for the benevolence of the almighty! After all all that is what matters.

Love,

 

YK

 

 

You probably mistake me for someone else. I never used any picture as the avatara.

 

Rest of your reply is ... well ignorable.

[Guest guest]

 

ok,gaudiyas,hk's u that,u this,now grammer,next punctuation?

see for ur self .....going for siddhi's...HA !

Siddhis need not be written without an apostrophe s. I'll see for myself, since you are unable to see. Your vision seems distorted sadly.

[Guest guest]

Truly humble!

Alas, a few have this humility while stumbling and standing along the path.

Dear Soul brother, I appreciate your humbleness and apologize to you on my behalf if something I said hurt your feelings. I also bow down to the Paramatma seated on the lotus petaled seat in your heart. After all we all covered by our egos, and the ego is the last thing to fall off. I've experienced this in out of the body meditations. Even if you leave this gross physical body made of five elements, your ego still remains with you.

 

You are just a soul like myself. This is the completeness, I wish everyone saw. I wish the Gaudiyas and other stopped fighting over my god, your sampradaya etc and indeed accepted, the spiritual culture as a whole and not just limited to one sankirtana movement and condemning everything else.

Love brother,

 

YogKriya.

 

 

Dear Souls

I The Follower Of Krishna Entered Into This Spiritual Discussions Thread Because I Was Not Satisfied Enough By Just Knowing About God's Existence.

 

I Wanted To Talk About Him,hear About Him,find Out Different Notions ,practices And Beliefs Among Various Practioners.

 

My Only Thought When I Entered Into Argument Was Only To Stress On God.in The Process I Lost It(afterall....to Err Is Human)

 

During The Whole Arguments,i Felt Anxious,anger,hurt,egoism And I Forgot My Sweet Lord! Alas !

 

I Have Learned My Lesson That Argument Leads To Personel Abuse

Which Inturn Causes Anger And Hurt.

 

Dear Yk, I Personally Apologise To U For Causing Anger,hurt,anxiousness, Taking Away Ur Precious Time, And Finding Fault With Ur Way Of Practice.

 

Krishna I Truly Love U !! And I Shall Never Cause Pain To Any Other Soul With My Words Or Deeds Anymore.

 

Thanks To U All For Enlighting Me !

Hare Krishna !

[sumedh]

 

Sadly everything is ignorable to you, except the Bengali Gaudiya philosphy.

 

In the whole wide Bhagwad Gita that Krishna discourced to Arjuna everything is ignorable to you except one one chapter on Bhakti Yoga.

 

This is incorrect. Here are a few of direct references to bhakti in Bhagavad-Gita:

 

4.3

 

sah--the same ancient; eva--certainly; ayam--this; maya--by Me; te--unto you; adya--today; yogah--the yoga; proktah--spoken; puratanah--very old; bhaktah--devotee; asi--you are; me--My; sakha--friend; ca--also; iti--therefore; rahasyam--mystery; hi--certainly; etat--this; uttamam--transcendental.

 

Here Krishna says that this knowledge is being revealed to Arjuna since he is a devotee and friend of Lord.

 

6.30

 

yah--whoever; mam--Me; pasyati--sees; sarvatra--everywhere; sarvam--everything; ca--and; mayi--in Me; pasyati--he sees; tasya--his; aham--I; na--not; pranasyami--am lost; sah--he; ca--also; me--to Me; na--nor; pranasyati--is lost.

 

Where the Lord describes the "brahma-bhutam" state.

 

6.31

 

sarva-bhuta-sthitam--situated in everyone's heart; yah--he who; mam--unto Me; bhajati--serves in devotional service; ekatvam--oneness; asthitah--thus situated; sarvatha--in all respects; varta-manah--being situated; api--in spite of; sah--he; yogi--transcendentalist; mayi--unto Me; vartate--remains.

 

Where the meaning of a yogi is given as one who does bhajan of Lord.

 

6.47

 

yoginam--of all yogis; api--also; sarvesam--all types of; mat-gatena--abiding in Me; antah-atmana--always thinking of Me within; sraddha-van--in full faith; bhajate--renders transcendental loving service; yah--one who; mam--Me (the Supreme Lord); sah--he; me--Mine; yukta-tamah--the greatest yogi; matah--is considered.

 

Where a devotee is described as the highest of all yogis.

 

In 7.15 Sri Krishna says that only the "nara-adhamah" do not surrender to Him. In 7.17-18 Krishna says that out of all those who approach Him the devotee who is in knowledge is dear to Him.

 

7.19

 

bahunam--many; janmanam--births; ante--after; jnana-van--he possessing knowledge; mam--unto Me; prapadyate--surrenders; vasudevah--cause of all causes; sarvam--all; iti--thus; sah--such; maha-atma--great soul; su-durlabhah--very rare.

 

Where surrendering to Krishna is described as being very rare even among jnanis.

 

In 7.29 Krishna says that those who want to attain liberation take refuge in Him and only they know Brahman.

 

In 8.7-8.8 Krishna tells Arjuna that the practice of yoga is to always remember Him while doing his duty.

 

In 8.22 He says that the Supreme is attained only by bhakti and asks Arjuna in 8.27 to be fixed in devotion.

 

In chapter 9 the Lord gives raja-vidya, the most confidential knowledge (guhyatamam) to Arjuna which leads to moksha. In 9.4-9.10 the all-pervasive, controller of all aspects of Krishna are given. Then 9.13-14:

 

 

maha-atmanah--the great souls; tu--but; mam--unto Me; partha--O son of Prtha; daivim--divine; prakrtim--nature; asritah--taken shelter of; bhajanti--render service; ananya-manasah--without deviation of the mind; jnatva--knowing; bhuta--creation; adim--original; avyayam--inexhaustible.

 

satatam--always; kirtayantah--chanting; mam--Me; yatantah ca--fully endeavoring also; drdha-vratah--with determination; namasyantah ca--offering obeisances; mam--unto Me; bhaktya--in devotion; nitya-yuktah--perpetually engaged; upasate--worship

 

Where the position of the great souls is described as always devoted to Krishna and chanting His Names. In 9.26-34 the devotional process is further described.

 

In 10.9-10.11 Krishna says how the devotees always engage in His service and He, the SuperSoul, destroys their ignorance with knowledge.

 

In 11.54-55 the Lord says that He can be known only by ananya-bhakti.

 

Chapter 12 talks about devotional service in more details. In 12.2 the Lord says that those who fix their minds on Him and worship Him are to be considered the most perfect. In 12.6-7 the Lord says that He is a swift deliverer of those who constantly engage in His service.

 

In 13.8-12 the Lord gives the various qualities to be developed in ananya-bhakti. In 13.17 Krishna says that this knowledge (of kshetra-kshetrajna) is understood by His devotees who then attain Him. In 13.26 Krishna says that even those who are not in knowledge about Him but start worshipping Him attain liberation since they are eager to hear about Him.

 

In chapter 14 Krishna says that He shall again impart the highest knowledge to Arjuna.

14.26

 

mam--unto Me; ca--also; yah--person; avyabhicarena--without fail; bhakti-yogena--by devotional service; sevate--renders service; sah--he; gunan--all the modes of material nature; samatitya--transcending; etan--all this; brahma-bhuyaya--to be elevated to the Brahman platform; kalpate--is considered.

 

Here the situation of a devotee is described (and in 14.22-25 a devotee's qualities are given).

 

In 15.19 Krishna says that knowing Him as the Supreme Person a jiva engages in devotional service to Him, and in 15.20 He says that this is the most confidential portion of the scriptures.

 

In 18.51-53 the various endevours of yogi are given and then in 18.54 the Lord says that one who attains the "brahma-bhutah" attains pure devotion unto Him. Then 18.55

 

bhaktya--by pure devotional service; mam--Me; abhijanati--one can know; yavan--as much as; yah ca asmi--as I am; tattvatah--in truth; tatah--thereafter; mam--Me; tattvatah--by truth; jnatva--knowing; visate--enters; tat-anantaram--thereafter.

 

where Sri Bhagavan says that the Truth can only be known by bhakti

 

In 18.56-63 the glories of bhakti are described. Then in 18.64-66 the most confidential of all the knowledge (sarva-guhya-tamam) is given as follows:

 

sarva-guhya-tamam--the most confidential of all; bhuyah--again; srnu--just hear; me--from Me; paramam--the supreme; vacah--instruction; istah asi--you are very dear to Me; me--of Me; drdham--very; iti--thus; tatah--therefore; vaksyami--I am speaking; te--for your; hitam--benefit.

 

mat-manah--thinking of Me; bhava--just become; mat-bhaktah--My devotee; mat-yaji--My worshiper; mam--unto Me; namaskuru--offer your obeisances; mam--unto Me; eva--certainly; esyasi--come; satyam--truly; te--to you; pratijane--I promise; priyah--dear; asi--you are; me--Mine.

 

sarva-dharman--all varieties of religion; parityajya--abandoning; mam--unto Me; ekam--only; saranam--surrender; vraja--go; aham--I; tvam--you; sarva--all; papebhyah--from sinful reactions; moksayisyami--deliver; ma--not; sucah--worry.

 

 

There is nothing you can do except get annoyed and retaliate.

 

What makes you think that i would be annoyed?

[Guest guest]

Dear Sumedhji,

 

Yes there are references of Bhakti in the Bhagwad Gita. So are there references of bhakti in other scriptures including Shiva Gita and Shiv Mahapurana. In Shiv Samhita, for example, Lord Shiva says the system of yoga (Kundalini, Kriya yoga) is the highest and it should only be given to a bhakta. Bhakti is the first step without which you don't become qualified for any higher knowledge. Then you get the higher knowledge, and get direct perception and experience and gain Gyana. SUCH a person is the dearest to the Lord. This is what Krishna meant in the verse you quoted. Krishna is not not refering here to knowledge as plain ability to quote someone from a book. This is no knowledge. Real knowledge is realized knowledge my friend. And realized knowledge is not simply what you believe in. Its not so easy to attain. And after you gain this experienced knowledge, you become more of a 'bhakta' and this is realized bhakti that Krishna talked about.

There is no realized knowledge without direct perception. It is all bookish theory. You may believe in it or you may not. The only diference between you and someone who is not religious minded and away from HK philosophy is that you firmly believe in theories propounded and preached by your sampradaya acharyas. Other don't. Your belief leads to working further on these theories. But when this work finally leads to direct perception and anubhuti, the resulting knowledge from that is real knowledge and such a bhakta is the dearest to Krishna. Otherwise there is a lot of crowd ready to lecture and preach others quoting and reading versus. Maybe they may not have attained or accomplished anything significant.

But its always easy to tell others what to do!! That doesn't impress me really.

 

The definition of bhakti here as understood by present daay saints from "bhakti kaal" and Krishna's level sages is diffrent in its realization.

 

The only conflicting factor with Gaudiyas is putting my way over your way.

Rest is fine. Bhakti is fine. But the uncontrollable urge to prove bhakti and especially Gaudiya line of bhakti over every other line of belief is wrong! Dead wrong!

There is strong bhakti amongst yogis. There is very strong bhakti amongst tantriks. If they are real tantriks. Nothing wrong. In fact tantra requires complete surrender to the Guru first to progress. What's wrong with that? Guru is the bridge between the Lord and the disciple.

There is very strong bhakti amongst Shiv bhaktas and those who worship Lord Ramachandra. There is bhakti amongst worshipers of Lord Ganesha.

And I repect all these bhaktas Other systems are not devoid of bhakti. It is the basic element. But you can't put down everyone else and every other school of thought just because u r into some high notch bhakti fling.

 

And in fact I can quote and bring forward as many references from the shastra, shrutis and scriptures on yoga as many as you can on bhakti. But what's the use? Since you talk an awful lot about Srimad Bhagwatam, I'm amazed how come you ignore the verse in which Lord says that - a person cannot perceive me in a state of wakefullness, sleep, dream, semi conscious, unconsciouse, nor in a high emotional or sentimental state of mind. He can only see me in a state of deep trance, in superconscious state of being. That's where I reveal myself unto him. Unfortunately I didn't note down the verse, chapter numbers. But I guess you wise quotation loving folks can find it. I read the following commentary of Srila Prabhupada on this verse, that read something like - A person should be Krishna consciousness, chant and remember him and eat prasadam. Now what do you want me to think?

Call it bhakti or yoga. Its your prerogative. I'm not out here to convert people.

 

I'm glad you are not annoyed. Please keep it up. HARE KRISHNA!

Believe it or not Sumedhji, I really appreciate the HKs. I appreciate the bhakti element in the sampradaya above anything.

I do not appreciate the policies and political side of the sect like aggressive preaching putting others down and trying to prove my form of God or my name of God or my way of worship above all others. Comparing other schools of thoughts and putting them down and then saying our is superior is what is a put off.

 

Love & Regards,

 

YK

 

 

This is incorrect. Here are a few of direct references to bhakti in Bhagavad-Gita:

 

4.3

Here Krishna says that this knowledge is being revealed to Arjuna since he is a devotee and friend of Lord.

 

6.30

Where the Lord describes the "brahma-bhutam" state.

 

6.31

Where the meaning of a yogi is given as one who does bhajan of Lord.

 

6.47

Where a devotee is described as the highest of all yogis.

 

In 7.15 Sri Krishna says that only the "nara-adhamah" do not surrender to Him. In 7.17-18 Krishna says that out of all those who approach Him the devotee who is in knowledge is dear to Him.

 

7.19

Where surrendering to Krishna is described as being very rare even among jnanis.

 

In 7.29 Krishna says that those who want to attain liberation take refuge in Him and only they know Brahman.

 

In 8.7-8.8 Krishna tells Arjuna that the practice of yoga is to always remember Him while doing his duty.

 

In 8.22 He says that the Supreme is attained only by bhakti and asks Arjuna in 8.27 to be fixed in devotion.

 

 

 

In chapter 9 the Lord gives raja-vidya, the most confidential knowledge (guhyatamam) to Arjuna which leads to moksha. In 9.4-9.10 the all-pervasive, controller of all aspects of Krishna are given. Then 9.13-14:

 

Where the position of the great souls is described as always devoted to Krishna and chanting His Names. In 9.26-34 the devotional process is further described.

 

In 10.9-10.11 Krishna says how the devotees always engage in His service and He, the SuperSoul, destroys their ignorance with knowledge.

 

In 11.54-55 the Lord says that He can be known only by ananya-bhakti.

 

Chapter 12 talks about devotional service in more details. In 12.2 the Lord says that those who fix their minds on Him and worship Him are to be considered the most perfect. In 12.6-7 the Lord says that He is a swift deliverer of those who constantly engage in His service.

 

In 13.8-12 the Lord gives the various qualities to be developed in ananya-bhakti. In 13.17 Krishna says that this knowledge (of kshetra-kshetrajna) is understood by His devotees who then attain Him. In 13.26 Krishna says that even those who are not in knowledge about Him but start worshipping Him attain liberation since they are eager to hear about Him.

 

In chapter 14 Krishna says that He shall again impart the highest knowledge to Arjuna.

14.26

Here the situation of a devotee is described (and in 14.22-25 a devotee's qualities are given).

 

In 15.19 Krishna says that knowing Him as the Supreme Person a jiva engages in devotional service to Him, and in 15.20 He says that this is the most confidential portion of the scriptures.

 

In 18.51-53 the various endevours of yogi are given and then in 18.54 the Lord says that one who attains the "brahma-bhutah" attains pure devotion unto Him. Then 18.55

where Sri Bhagavan says that the Truth can only be known by bhakti

 

In 18.56-63 the glories of bhakti are described. Then in 18.64-66 the most confidential of all the knowledge (sarva-guhya-tamam) is given as follows:

 

What makes you think that i would be annoyed?

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

Pranam

No one can deny the Bhakti spoken in The Gita, and it can be expressed in different way that also is quite clear in the Gita but that does not bother us, no Hindu would object to Bhakti, this is not what is discussed here is it?

It is my method is better then yours attitude that and constant bashing of Hindus, whenever possible (on whose charity the organization is widely supported) irks most of us. I see everyone else answering to YK ignoring this point.

The verse Sarva dharma is quoted quite often to drive the point of exclusive Bhakti to Krishna, but let us remind our self why Gita was spoken to Arjun. He was overcome by grief he was afraid of the sins of killing his guru, grandfather Bhisma and the others also dear to him and the resultant varna shanker praja that would follow.he was perplexed about his dharma, so it is quiet natural for Lord Krishna to say give up all Dharma I will save you for all the sins at the end.otherwise what was the reason for him to speak the Gita and all the other Dharma in it?

 

 

tasmac chastram pramanam te

karyakarya-vyavasthitau

jnatva sastra-vidhanoktam

karma kartum iharhasi

 

Therefore, let the scripture be your authority in determining what should be done and what should not be done. You should perform your duty following the scriptural injunction. (16.24)

And why would he ask, the Pandavas immediately after the war, to pray to Lord Shiva to wash their sins?

I have no intention to start Siva V Krishna debate, just a reflection; it is more than what meets the eye.

Thanks YK for your excelent reply to Sumedhji

Jai Shree Krishna

[sumedh]

 

Yes there are references of Bhakti in the Bhagwad Gita.

 

The problem is that you made claims without evidence and then not accepting the fault even when they are shown to be incorrect. In this instance, you claimed that Bhagavad Gita talks about bhakti in only one chapter (and that i ignore the rest of Gita). If you read it carefully you shall see that most of Bhagavad Gita talks about Bhakti and Bhakti alone as was demonstrated in the quotes. In fact a yogi is defined as one who is a bhakta.

 

 

In Shiv Samhita, for example, Lord Shiva says the system of yoga (Kundalini, Kriya yoga) is the highest and it should only be given to a bhakta. So are there references of bhakti in other scriptures including Shiva Gita and Shiv Mahapurana.

 

Firstly, quotes from the relevant scriptures would do good here.

 

Secondly, i have not heard of Shiv samhita before. It would be interesting to find if there is any vedanta school that considers this scripture as a sadagama. The accepted scriptures which are accepted as a whole in all the major schools are: 1) Sruti (vedas including upanishads), 2) Bhagavad Gita, 3) Brahma Sutra. Sattvic portions (meaning when they follow the vedas) from other sadagamas like Mahabharata, Mula Ramayana, Puranas are also accepted.

 

Normally any conclusion should be based on sruti and supporting evidence is provided from smriti. With this background, the issue is that the practice of kundalini etc. is not found in any of sruti or puranas. The point is that these practices may exist and may lead the practitioner to some "experiences" but are not considered useful for attainment of moksha, particularly when the vedas declare unequivocally that apart from devotion/worship of Vishnu there does not exist any path to moksha (e.g. in Uttaranuvaka).

 

 

In Shiv Samhita, for example, Lord Shiva says the system of yoga (Kundalini, Kriya yoga) is the highest and it should only be given to a bhakta. Bhakti is the first step without which you don't become qualified for any higher knowledge. Then you get the higher knowledge, and get direct perception and experience and gain Gyana. SUCH a person is the dearest to the Lord.

 

Another of those claims without basis. If you would have read the quotes from Bhagavad Gita carefully, then the Lord clearly says that those who reach brahma-bhutam stage worship him with devotion (6.40), that the great souls always render devotional service unto Him (9.13-14), that various endevours of a yogi are to attain pure devotional service unto Him (18.51-54). Then He says in multiple places that He can be only known by Bhakti (7.29, 11.54-55, 18.55). So you are saying exact opposite of what Krishna says in Gita that the various endevours (of knowledge, meditation, action without attachment etc.) are intended to attain bhakti or in other words these are various limbs or stages of bhakti.

 

If you want to show your point then you will have to provide direct references which say otherwise, and those that would be considered "stronger" than Bhagavad Gita which means the sruti. So unless you provide direct sruti statements stating otherwise your claims would be termed as baseless.

 

 

This is what Krishna meant in the verse you quoted. Krishna is not not refering here to knowledge as plain ability to quote someone from a book. This is no knowledge. Real knowledge is realized knowledge my friend. And realized knowledge is not simply what you believe in. Its not so easy to attain. And after you gain this experienced knowledge, you become more of a 'bhakta' and this is realized bhakti that Krishna talked about.

There is no realized knowledge without direct perception. It is all bookish theory. You may believe in it or you may not.

 

And what makes you conclude that all that i said was only bookish knowledge and was not based direct experience? And what makes you certain that the said experience (of anyone claiming so) is not just illusion, particularly when the Lord clearly says in Bhagavad Gita that no one (including devatas, all the jnanis etc.) knows Him completely? It is easy to bluff others claiming experience for whatever one may write, but cannot be accepted in a discussion which should be based on mutually accepted pramanas -- don't you think so?

 

 

The only diference between you and someone who is not religious minded and away from HK philosophy is that you firmly believe in theories propounded and preached by your sampradaya acharyas. Other don't. Your belief leads to working further on these theories. But when this work finally leads to direct perception and anubhuti, the resulting knowledge from that is real knowledge and such a bhakta is the dearest to Krishna.

 

Any theory which has no evidence should be discarded. What would you say if someone applies the same approach to material sciences? (i.e. making claims based on some "experience" without any evidence). Direct experience is a personal thing between the practitioner and possibly his/her Guru, but that is never referred to in such discussion.

 

You seem to think that chanting, devotion etc. do not lead to any experience while the exact opposite is true in that only these when performed correctly can lead to experience rooted in Truth.

 

 

The only conflicting factor with Gaudiyas is putting my way over your way.

Rest is fine. Bhakti is fine. But the uncontrollable urge to prove bhakti and especially Gaudiya line of bhakti over every other line of belief is wrong! Dead wrong!

 

No, the issue is your claims without basis about "unscientific and unvedic chanting", that "bhakti is first step to ..." etc.The fact is that you have not backed any of your claims with evidence.

 

 

And in fact I can quote and bring forward as many references from the shastra, shrutis and scriptures on yoga as many as you can on bhakti. But what's the use?

 

Please do so. You would be surprised and hard pressed to find even a few verses from sruti for this (and invariably they will lead to devotion as the aim).

 

 

I do not appreciate the policies and political side of the sect like aggressive preaching putting others down and trying to prove my form of God or my name of God or my way of worship above all others. Comparing other schools of thoughts and putting them down and then saying our is superior is what is a put off.

 

There was no intention in this discussion to put down, rather to clear up some of the stuff. Anyway, this itself is not surprising -- consider that Shakaracharya defeated all the other philosophies of his time, and the same with Ramanujacharya, Madhvacharya etc. So this is part of Vedantic approach, i.e. sticking to Truth which is like walking on the edge of sword as the Katha Upanishad says.