Christianity is simpler

[cbrahma]

I'm going to continue with my Christian faith. There is still some corruption but it doesn't demand total subjugation of one person by another. Nobody should have that kind of power. And it's not so damn complicated.

[theist]

My intiation into spiritual life came in the form of the mercy of Lord Jesus Christ. I am convinced Jesus Christ wants me to become attached to the Lord's Holy Names and to chant them without cessation. There is knowledge in the SB and related scriptures that I find essential for anyone in search of God consciousness.

 

But I have no taste for religion either Christrianity or Hinduism or even the Vaisnava prescriptions for Deity worship etc. I don't decry Deity worship I am just saying that for me other than visiting a temple and being respectful I have no specific desire for that form of worship.

 

One cannot go wrong by glorifying the names of the Father and the Son.

 

Jaya Jaya Yeshua! Jaya Jaya Krsna!

[AncientMariner]

I can understand that sentiment but even if I get sick of Vaisnavism I always end up coming back to the books sooner or later because to me they are just more fascinating than any books Christianity produced. I like the Urantia Book, it is very interesting but don't know if it is for real or just a hoax. Prabhupada is great just no getting around it in my opinion. One thing I have been doing is just try to keep it simple reading canto 5 and trusting this verse in Srimad Bhagavatam:

 

SB 5.14.46

 

Devotees interested in hearing and chanting [śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam] regularly discuss the pure characteristics of Bharata Mahārāja and praise his activities. If one submissively hears and chants about the all-auspicious Mahārāja Bharata, one’s life span and material opulences certainly increase. One can become very famous and easily attain promotion to the heavenly planets, or attain liberation by merging into the existence of the Lord. Whatever one desires can be attained simply by hearing, chanting and glorifying the activities of Mahārāja Bharata. In this way, one can fulfill all his material and spiritual desires. One does not have to ask anyone else for these things, for simply by studying the life of Mahārāja Bharata, one can attain all desirable things.

[cbrahma]

Ok. But the biggest factor is the power control that these so-called vaisnavas want to exert on others. Its almost diabolical. It certainly is dark and frigthening. I can't believe it's of the Spirit of God.

 

 

I can understand that sentiment but even if I get sick of Vaisnavism I always end up coming back to the books sooner or later because to me they are just more fascinating than any books Christianity produced. I like the Urantia Book, it is very interesting but don't know if it is for real or just a hoax. Prabhupada is great just no getting around it in my opinion. One thing I have been doing is just try to keep it simple reading canto 5 and trusting this verse in Srimad Bhagavatam:

 

SB 5.14.46

 

Devotees interested in hearing and chanting [śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam] regularly discuss the pure characteristics of Bharata Mahārāja and praise his activities. If one submissively hears and chants about the all-auspicious Mahārāja Bharata, one’s life span and material opulences certainly increase. One can become very famous and easily attain promotion to the heavenly planets, or attain liberation by merging into the existence of the Lord. Whatever one desires can be attained simply by hearing, chanting and glorifying the activities of Mahārāja Bharata. In this way, one can fulfill all his material and spiritual desires. One does not have to ask anyone else for these things, for simply by studying the life of Mahārāja Bharata, one can attain all desirable things.

[theist]

Myself I have no interest in Christian theological teaching. I have no interest in the Bible with the exception of the teachings of Jesus in which I find the essence of bhakti. The rest is too speculative to put faith in. I don't want to imitate the Hebrew religious culture anymore than I want to imitate the Bengali vaisnava traditions.

 

Jesus taught the essence of religion is to love God with all your heart mind and soul and to love others as yourself. That is vaisnavism in it's simplest defintion.

 

So for me it is not a question of either Krsna or Jesus. In fact you can't have the Father without the Son or the Son without the Father.

[Sridas]

To all the honest and honorable vaisnavas I wish them all a very auspicious and Holy Christ mass in the coming days if they observe the appearance day of Jesus then may you share some of your joy with others by his appearance in your consciousness, extending his message in practice of loving the Lord and likewise loving each other, as those who have transcended this worldly plane of existence.

 

Peace and all the other rasas, good will and affectionate dandavats be with you.

Yours in the joyful service of Sri Sri Guru-Gauranga

and Sri Sri Radha-Govinda.

 

 

 

 

I'm sure they'll allow drums and karatahls

 

 

We used to do a big feast for the homeless on this day they really appreciate it.

[bija]

ha ha ha, ho ho ho, he he he....the future's so bright...

 

[ATTACH]1316[/ATTACH]

[Puru Das, das anudas]

 

I'm going to continue with my Christian faith. There is still some corruption but it doesn't demand total subjugation of one person by another. Nobody should have that kind of power. And it's not so damn complicated.

 

Kindly examine this statetment by His Divine Grae Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhuapsda. It is the second secondary reason for his preaching mission from his "l966 Constitution of Association"

 

". . . 2. To discharge as a matter of coures the vitiated system of supremacy of one man over another by false prestige of birthright or vested interests.

 

(*Note from Puru Das Adhikari - Please don't misunderstand "2." The New Webster's Dictionary definitions of discharge and vitiated are as follows:

 

discharge -.to unload, to discharge cargo,to absolve, free oneself from, to release (am arrow or bullet) to rid of an electrical charge, to dismiss etc. . . and

 

vitiated- spoiled ., made defective, corrupted (morals or taste), invalidated or made wholly or partly ineffective.)

[Puru Das, das anudas]

Love

Love is never forced, and the relationship of submission and service (seva) between any bona fide guru and any bona fide disciple is purely voluntary and based on love and affection, not "power" over another jiva. The anugatya (guidance) of the pure soul is a great blessing on any conditioned jiva. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura (SBSST) wrote with very advanced understanding of how to use the English language to communicate transcendental conceptions. He has addressed your doubt about submission to any spiritual authority in these two essays. These essays require full attention and careful scrutiny of the language.

 

 

 

Initiation Into Spiritual Life

 

 

 

by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura

 

THE ceremony of diksha or initiation is that by which the spiritual Preceptor admits one to the status of a neophyte on the path of spiritual endeavour. The ceremony tends to confer spiritual enlightenment by abrogating sinfulness. Its actual effect depends on the degree of willing co-operation on the part of the disciple and is, therefore, not the same in all cases. It does not preclude the possibility of reversion on the novice to the non-spiritual state, if he slackens in his effort or misbehaves. Initiation puts a person on the true track and also imparts an initial impulse to go ahead. It cannot, however, keep one going for good unless one chooses to put forth his own voluntary effort. The nature of the initial impulse also varies in accordance with the condition of the recipient. But although the mercy of the good preceptor enables us to have a glimpse of the Absolute and of the path of His attainment, the seed that is thus sown requires very careful tending under the direction of the preceptor, if it is to germinate and grow into the fruit-and-shade-giving tree. Unless our soul of his own accord chooses to serve Krishna after obtaining a working idea of his real nature, he cannot long retain the Spiritual Vision. The soul is never compelled by Krishna to serve Him.

But initiation is never altogether futile. It changes the outlook of the disciple on life. If he sins after initiation, he may fall into greater depths of degradation than the uninitiated. But although even after initiation temporary set-backs may occur, they do not ordinarily prevent the final deliverance. The faintest glimmering of the real knowledge of the Absolute has sufficient power to change radically and for good the whole of our mental and physical constitution and this glimmering is incapable of being totally extinguished except in extraordinarily unfortunate cases.

 

It is undoubtedly practicable for the initiated, if only he is willing, to follow the directions of the preceptor that lead by slow degrees to the Absolute. The good preceptor is verily the savior of fallen souls. It is, however, very rarely that a person with modern culture feels inclined to submit to the guidance of another specially in spiritual matters. But the very person submits readily enough to the direction of a physician for being cured of his bodily ailments. Because these latter cannot be ignored without consequences that are patent to everybody. The evil that results from our neglect of the ailments of the soul is of a nature that paralyses and deludes our understanding and prevents the recognitions of itself. Its gravity is not recognized as it does not apparently stand in the way of our worldly activities with the same directness as the other. The average cultured man is, therefore, at liberty to ask questions without realizing any pressing necessity of submitting to the treatment of spiritual maladies at the hands of a really competent physician.

 

The questions that are frequently asked are as these: ‘Why should it be at all necessary to submit to any particular person or to to any particular ceremony for the purpose of realizing the Absolute Who by His nature in unconditioned? Why should Krishna require our formal declaration of submission to Himself? Would it not be more generous and logical to permit us to live a life of freedom in accordance with the principles of our perverted nature which is also His creation. Admitting that it is our duty to serve Krishna, why should we have to be introduced to Him by a third party? Why is it impossible for one to serve Sri Krishna directly?’ It would no doubt be highly convenient and helpful to be instructed by a good preceptor who is well-versed in the Scriptures in understanding the same. But one should never submit to another to an extent that may furnish a rascal with an opportunity of really doing harm. The bad preceptor is a familiar character. It is inexplicable how those gurus who live in open sin contrive nevertheless to retain the unquestioning allegiance of the cultured portion of their disciples.

Such being the case, can we blame any person who hesitates to submit unconditionally to a preceptor, whether he is good or bad? It is of course necessary to be quite sure of the bonafide of a person before we accept him even tentatively as our spiritual guide. A preceptor should be a person who appears likely to possess those qualities that will enable him it improve our spiritual condition.

 

Those and similar thoughts are likely to occur to most persons who have received an English education, when they are asked to accept the help of any particular person as his spiritual preceptor. The literature, science and art of the West, body forth the principle of the liberty of the individual and denounce the mentality that leads one to surrender to however superior a person his right of choosing his own course. They inculcate the necessity and high value of having faith in oneself.

But the good preceptor claims our sincere and complete allegiance. The good disciple makes a complete surrender of himself at the feet of the preceptor. But the submission of the disciple is neither irrational or blind. It is complete on condition that the preceptor himself continues to be altogether good. The disciple retains the right of renouncing his allegiance to the preceptor the moment he is satisfied that the preceptor is a fallible creature like himself. Nor does a good preceptor accept any one as his disciple unless the latter is prepared to submit to him freely. A good preceptor is in duty bound to renounce a disciple who is not sincerely willing to follow his instructions fully. If a preceptor accepts as his disciple one who refuses to be wholly guided by him, or if a disciple submits to a preceptor who is not wholly good, such preceptor and such disciple are, both of them, doomed to fall from their spiritual state.

No one is a good preceptor who has not realised the Absolute. One who has realised the Absolute is saved from the necessity of walking on the worldly path. The good preceptor who lives the spiritual life is, therefore, bound to be wholly good. He should be wholly free from any desire for anything of this world whether good or bad. The categories of good and bad do not exist in the Absolute. In the Absolute everything is good. We can have no idea in our present state of this absolute goodness. Submission to the Absolute is not real unless it is also itself absolute. It is on the plane of the Absolute that the disciple is required to submit completely to the good preceptor. On the material plane there can be no such thing as complete submission. The pretence of complete submission to the bad preceptor is responsible for the corruptions that are found in the relationship of the ordinary worldly guru and his equally worldly-minded disciples.

 

All honest thinkers will realise the logical propriety of the position set forth above. But most persons will be disposed to believe that a good preceptor in the above sense may not be found in this world. This is really so. Both the good preceptor and his disciple belong to the spiritual realm. But spiritual discipleship is nevertheless capable of being realised by persons who belong to this world. Otherwise there wold be no religion at all in the world. But because the spiritual life happens to be realizable in this world it does not follow that it is the worldly existence which is capable of being improved into the spiritual. As a matter of fact the one is perfectly incompatible with the other. They are categorically different from one another. The good preceptor although he appears to belong to this world is not really of this world. No one who belongs to this world can deliver us from worldliness. The good preceptor is a denizen of the spiritual world who has been enabled by the will of God to appear in this world in order to enable us to realise the spiritual existence.

 

The much vaunted individual liberty is a figment of the diseased imagination. We are bound willingly or unwillingly to submit to the laws of God in the material as well as in the spiritual world. The hankering for freedom in defiance of His laws is the cause of all our miseries. The total abjuration of all hankering for such freedom is the condition of admission to the spiritual realm. In this world we desire this freedom but are compelled against our will to submit to the inexorable laws of physical nature. This is the unnatural state. Such unwilling for forced submission does not admit us into the spiritual realm. In this world the moral principle, indeed claims our willing submission. But even morality also is a curtailment of freedom necessitated by the peculiar circumstances of this world. The soul who does not belong to this world is in a state of open or court rebellion against submission to an alien domination. It is by his very constitution capable of submitting willingly only to the Absolute.

 

The good preceptor asks the struggling soul to submit not to the laws of this world which will only rivet its chains but to the higher law of the spiritual realm. The pretence of submission to the laws of the spiritual realm without the intention of really carrying them out into practice is often mistaken for genuine submission by reason of the absence of fullness of conviction. In this world the fully convinced state is non-existent. We are, therefore, compelled in all cases to act on make-believes viz. the so-called working hypotheses. The good preceptor tells us to change this method of activity which we have learnt from our experience of this world. He invites us first of all to be really and fully informed of the nature and laws of the other world which happens to be eternally and categorically different from this phenomenal world. If we do not sincerely submit to be instructed in the alphabets of the life eternal but go on perversely asserting however unconsciously our present processes and so-called convictions against the instructions of the preceptor in the period of novitiate we are bound to remain where we are. This also will amount to the practical rejection of all advice because the two worlds have nothing in common though at the same time we naturally fail to understand this believing all the time in accordance with our accustomed methods that we are at any rate partially following the preceptor. But as a matter of fact when we reserve the right of choice we really follow ourselves, because even when we seem to agree to follow the preceptor it is because he appears to be in agreement with ourselves. But as the two worlds have absolutely nothing in common we are only under a delusion when we suppose that we really understand the method or the object of the preceptor or in other words reserve the right of assertion of the apparent self. Faith in the scriptures can alone help us in this otherwise unpracticable endeavour. We believe in the preceptor with the help of the shastras when we understand neither. As soon as we are fully convinced of the necessity of submitting unambiguously to the good preceptor it is then and only then that he is enabled to show us the way into the spiritual world in accordance with the method laid down in the shastras of that purpose which he can apply properly and without perpetrating a fatal blunder in as much as he himself happens to belong to the realm of the spirit.

 

 

The crux of the matter lies not in the external nature of the ceremony of initiation as it appears to us because that is bound to be unintelligible to us being an affair of the other world, but in the conviction of the necessity and the successful choice of a really good preceptor. We can attain to the conviction of the necessity of the help of a good preceptor by the exercise of our unbiased reason in the light of our ordinary experience. When once this conviction has been truly formed Sri Krishna Himself helps us in finding the really good preceptor in two ways. In the first place he instructs us as regards the character and functions of a good preceptor through the revealed Shastras. In the second place He Himself sends to us the good preceptor himself at the moment when we are at all likely to benefit by his instructions. The good preceptor also comes to us when we reject him. In such cases also it is certainly Krishna Who sends him to us for no reason what-so-ever. Krishna has revealed from eternity the tidings of the spiritual realm in the form of transcendental sounds that have been handed down in the records of the spiritual Scriptures all over the world. The spiritual Scriptures help all those who are prepared to exercise this reason for the purpose of finding not the relative but the Absolute Truth to find out the proper instructor in accordance with their directions. The only good preceptor is he who can make us really understand the spiritual scriptures and they enable us realise the necessity and the nature of submission to the processes laid down in them. But there is still every chance of foul play. A very clever man or a magician may pass himself off as a person who can properly explain the Scriptures by means of his greater knowledge or deceptive arts. It is very important, therefore, that we should be on our guard against such tricks. The Scholar as well as the magician pretend to explain the Scriptures only in terms of the object or happenings of this world. But the Scriptures themselves declare that they do not tell us at all of the thing of this world. Those who are liable to be deluded by the arts of pervert yogis who persuade themselves into believing that the spiritual is identical with the perversion, distortion or defiance of the laws of physical nature. The laws of physical nature are not unreal. They govern the relation of all relative existences(.) In our present state it is therefore, always possible for another who possesses the power or the knowledge to demonstrate the merely tentative character of what we choose to regard as our deepest convictions by exposing their insufficiency or inapplicability. But such surprises as they belong to the realm of the phenomenal, have nothing to do with the Absolute. Those who have an unspiritual partiality for scholarship or for magic fall into the clutches of the pseudo-religionists. The serious plight of these victims of their own perversity will be realised from the fact that no one can be delivered from the state of ignorance by the method of compulsion. It is not possible to save the man who refuses on principle to listen to the voice of reason. The empiric pedants are no exception to this rule.

 

The plain meaning of the Shastras should, therefore, be our only guide in the search of the good preceptor when we actually feel the need of his guidance. The Scriptures have defined the good preceptor as one who himself leads the spiritual life. It is not any worldly qualifications that make the good preceptor. It is by unreserved submission to such a preceptor that we can be helped to reenter into the realm that is our real home but which unfortunately is veritable terra incognita to almost all of us at present and also impossible of access to one body and mind alike which is the result of the disease of abuse of our faculty of free reason and the consequent accumulation of a killing load of worldly experiences which we have learnt to regard as the very stuff of our existence.

 

================================================== ============== Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura penned the original document in the year 442 of the Chaitanya Era, corresponding to December, 1928, on the western calendar. The original treatise can still be found in various Gaudiya archives, under volume 26, number 7, of the Shri Sajjana-toshani.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Puru Das, das anudas]

 

 

 

Assuming Responsibility Of Being Guru

 

 

 

by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura

 

We have taken upon ourselves the responsibility of welcoming this grave charge. All the audience have accepted ordinary seats, I alone have been provided with a lofty seat. All are being told in effect 'Do have a look at a big animal from the Zoo-gardens. What arrogance! So foolish! So wicked! Have you ever seen such a big brute? Garlands of flowers have been put round his neck! What laudations! What bombastic long-drawn, and hyperbolic adjectives! And how complacently too he is listening to the praise of his own achievements, how intently, and with his own ears! He also evidently feels delighted in mind! Is he not acting in plain violation of the teaching of Mahaprabhu? Can such a big brute, so selfish and insolent, be ever reclaimed from brutishness?'

I happen to be one of the greatest of fools. No one offers me good advice on account of my arrogance. Inasmuch as nobody condescends to instruct me I placed my case before Mahaprabhu Himself. The thought occurred to me that I would make over the charge of myself to Him and see what He would advise me to do. Then Shri Chaitanyadeva said to me:

"Whom-so-ever thou meet'st, instruct him regarding Krishna, By My command being Guru deliver this land; In this thou wilt not be obstructed by the current of the world; Thou wilt have My company once again at this place."

In these verses is to be found the proper explanation of the apparent inconsistency noticed above.

He whose only teaching is humility greater than that of a blade of grass, said "By My command being Guru save this land!" In this instance Mahaprabhu Himself has given the command. His command being 'Perform the duty of the Guru, even as I do it Myself. Also convey this command to whom-so-ever you chance to meet.' Chaitanyadeva says, 'Tell them these very words viz, by My command being Guru save this land. Deliver the people from their foolishness.' Now who-so- ever happens to hear these words would naturally protest with palms joined - 'But I am really a great sinner; how can I be Guru? You are Godhead Himself, the Teacher of the world. You can be Guru.' To this Mahaprabhu replies:

"In this thou will not be obstructed by the current of the world; Thou wilt have My company once again at this place."

'Do not practice the craft of a Guru for the purpose of injuring others through malice. Do not adopt the trade of a Guru in order to get immersed in the slough of this world. But if you can, indeed, be My guileless servant you will be endowed with My power - then you need not fear.'

I have no fear. My Gurudeva has heard this from his Gurudeva. And it is for this reason that my Gurudeva has accepted even such a great sinner as myself and has told me: 'By My command being Guru save this land.' It is only those who have never heard these words of Gaursundar who say 'How odd! to listen to one's own praise!' While the Guru is instructing his disciple in the eleventh Skandha of the Bhagavatam what a great sin, in their opinion, is he not perpetuating! What is the Acharya to do when he has to explain the Shloka 'Acharya Mam Vijaniyat: Never disregard the Acharya; never entertain the idea that the Acharya is your equal in any sense.' These are the words of Shri Krishna Himself by which the jiva is to be benefited. Is the Guru to take himself off, to desert his seat the seat of the Acharya - from which these words are to be explained? That office his Gurudeva has conferred on him. If he does not act up to its requirements he is doomed to perdition by reason of his offense against the holy Name in the shape of disrespect towards the Guru. He has to do it in spite of the fact that such procedure is apparently open to the charge of egoism. When the Guru imparts the mantram to the disciple should he not tell him by this mantram to worship the Guru? Should he say instead, 'Give the Guru a few strokes of the shoe or the horse-whip?' The Guru is never to be decried. The Guru is the abode of all the gods. Should the Gurudeva abstain from communicating these words to his disciple while reading the Bhagavatam to him? 'To him alone who possesses guileless spiritual devotion, similar to the transcendental devotion that is due to Krishna Himself, to the Gurudeva, the holy mysteries are manifested.' Is the Gurudeva not to tell these things to his disciples? 'Athau Gurupuja: the worship of the Guru has precedence over all others. The Guru is to be served just as Krishna is served. The Guru is to be worshipped in a particular way. Is the Guru to desert his seat without telling all these things to the disciple? In the angle there is always the defect in the shape of absence of the fullness, the evenness of level, of 180 degrees or of 360 degrees. But in the plain surface, in 360 degrees, there is no such defect. That in the emancipated state no defect is possible, this simple truth ordinary foolish people entirely fail to grasp.

As the saying goes, 'having started on the dance it is no use to draw close the veil.' I am doing the duty of the Guru, but if I preach that no one should shout 'Jai' to me, that is to say, if I say in a round about way, 'sing Jai to me,' it would be nothing short of duplicity. Our Gurudeva has not taught us such insincerity. Mahaprabhu has not taught such insincerity. I have to serve God in the straightforward way. The word of God has come down to the Gurudeva; I have to obey it in all sincerity. I will not disrespect the Guru at the instance of any foolish or malicious sectarians.

Especially as Shri Gurudeva has directed me saying, 'By My command being Guru save this land.' This command has my Gurudeva preached. My Gurudeva in his turn has conveyed the command to me. I will not be guilty of any insincerity in carrying out that command. In this matter I will not accept the ideal of ignorant, insincere, pseudo-ascetic sectarianism. I will not learn insincerity. The worldly-minded, the malicious, the pseudo-renunciationists, the selfish cannot understand how the devotees of God, spurning at everything of this world by command of God, never, not even for a second, deviate from the service of God through all the twenty-four hours.

 

Hypocritical sectarians, pseudo-Vaishnava sects, those sects that cherish internally the longing for earthly fame, naturally enough think 'what a shame it is for one to listen to the eulogies of disciples occupying the seat of the Guru.' But every Vaishnava regards everyone of the Vaishnavas as the object of his veneration. When Thakur Haridas exhibits the attitude of humility Mahaprabhu says - 'You are the greatest of the world, the crest-jewel of the world. Be agreeable, let us have our meal together.' He carried in His arms the body of Thakur Haridas which is eternally existent, self-conscious and full of spiritual bliss. In the community that follows Shri Rupa, the qualities of desiring no honor for oneself and of readiness to duly honor others are fully present. Those who detect any disparity are, like the owl, blind while the sun shines. They commit an offense by such conduct. If I disobey the law which has come down to me through the chain of preceptorial succession, the offense due to omission to carry out the command of the Guru will sever me from the lotus-feet of Shri Gurudeva. If in order to carry out the command of the Vaishnava Guru I have to be arrogant, to be brutish, to suffer eternal perdition, I am prepared to welcome such eternal damnation and even sign a pact to that effect. I will not listen to the words of other malicious persons in lieu of the command of the Gurudeva. I will dissipate with indomitable courage and conviction the currents of thought of all the rest of the world, relying on the strength derived from the lotus-feet of Shri Gurudeva. I confess to this arrogance. By sprinkling a particle of the pollen of the lotus-feet of my Preceptor scores of people like you will be saved. There is no such learning in this world, no such sound reasoning in all the fourteen worlds, in no man-gods, that can weigh more than a solitary particle of the dust of the lotus-feet of my Gurudeva. Gurudeva in whom I have implicit trust can never spite me. I am by no means prepared to listen to the words of any one who wants to hurt me or to accept such a malicious person as my preceptor.

 

SBSST

[cbrahma]

Well then he failed, because the history of ISKCON is a history of authoritarian abuse. I say this with authority because I experienced it first hand. So many child abuse law suits coming from so many different places attests to the dangers of the absolute authority these monsters exert over the innocent and trusting.

 

 

 

 

Kindly examine this statetment by His Divine Grae Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhuapsda. It is the second secondary reason for his preaching mission from his "l966 Constitution of Association"

 

". . . 2. To discharge as a matter of coures the vitiated system of supremacy of one man over another by false prestige of birthright or vested interests.

 

(*Note from Puru Das Adhikari - Please don't misunderstand "2." The New Webster's Dictionary definitions of discharge and vitiated are as follows:

 

discharge -.to unload, to discharge cargo,to absolve, free oneself from, to release (am arrow or bullet) to rid of an electrical charge, to dismiss etc. . . and

 

vitiated- spoiled ., made defective, corrupted (morals or taste), invalidated or made wholly or partly ineffective.)

[cbrahma]

What a contradiction in terms. The requirement of absolute 'surrender' is a requirement of complete control of the guru over the said disciple. There is an non-negotiable command for diksa initiation which establishes this absolute control. That's what all the controversy and corruption is about.

I will never surrender to another human being. That is diabolical and a very bizarre condition for linking up to a loving God.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Assuming Responsibility Of Being Guru

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura ....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mrs.moore]

 

I will never surrender to another human being.

 

vaisnavas don't see a real guru as an ordinary hunman being, though.

 

btw. i like the medieval christian mystics. very high :pray:

[cbrahma]

Ordinary, extraordinary - still human.

 

 

vaisnavas don't see a real guru as an ordinary hunman being, though.

 

btw. i like the medieval christian mystics. very high :pray:

[mrs.moore]

i think vaisnavas meditate on their guru in a not-so-human form... like a cowherd boy or whatever

[cbrahma]

How do you know? What they make of the guru in their imagination doesn't change the fact that they're human.

 

i think vaisnavas meditate on their guru in a not-so-human form... like a cowherd boy or whatever

[mrs.moore]

yeah but you and i can't enter into their imagination or their meditation.

it's what they believe.

maybe some of them believe their guru is a cow in the spiritual world:).

 

and what if their guru has passed on. would you then say their guru is then in a human form.... or not....

[cbrahma]

too weird for me.

 

 

yeah but you and i can't enter into their imagination or their meditation.

it's what they believe.

maybe some of them believe their guru is a cow in the spiritual world:).

 

and what if their guru has passed on. would you then say their guru is then in a human form.... or not....

[mrs.moore]

sorry

[Puru Das, das anudas]

 

Well then he failed, because the history of ISKCON is a history of authoritarian abuse. I say this with authority because I experienced it first hand. So many child abuse law suits coming from so many different places attests to the dangers of the absolute authority these monsters exert over the innocent and trusting.

 

The abuses mostly took place after l977. after His Divine Grace entered maha samadhi.

 

You may have been bruised and thinks this way but your opinion is relative to your own mental quantum. Somany disciples, women and others were mistreated. You have plenty of company amongst His Divine Grace's initiated disciples. Rather than just be bitter best if you can take shelter of the exmaple of Vidura in the face of such adversity.Vidura was also bruised by Duryodhana, but he took the matter Krsna consciously.

 

TEXT 15

TEXT

ka enam atropajuhava jihmam

dasyah sutam yad-balinaiva pustah

tasmin pratipah parakrtya aste

nirvasyatam asu purac chvasanah

SYNONYMS

kah--who; enam--this; atra--here; upajuhava--called for; jihmam--crooked; dasyah--of a kept mistress; sutam--son; yat--whose; balina--by whose subsistence; eva--certainly; pustah--grown up; tasmin--unto him; pratipah--enmity; parakrtya--enemy's interest; aste--situated; nirvasyatam--get him out; asu--immediately; purat--from the palace; svasanah--let him breathe only.

TRANSLATION

Who asked him to come here, this son of a kept mistress? He is so crooked that he spies in the interest of the enemy against those on whose support he has grown up. Toss him out of the palace immediately and leave him with only his breath.*

 

Note*(duryodhana is speaking about his uncle Vidura)

PURPORT

When getting married, the ksatriya kings would take on several other youthful girls along with the married princess. These girl attendants of the king were known as dasis, or attendant mistresses. By intimate association with the king, the dasis would get sons. Such sons were called dasi-putras. They had no claim to a royal position, but they would get maintenance and other facilities just like princes. Vidura was the son of such a dasi, and he was thus not counted amongst the ksatriyas. King Dhrtarastra was very affectionate toward his younger dasi-putra brother, Vidura, and Vidura was a great friend and philosophical advisor to Dhrtarastra. Duryodhana knew very well that Vidura was a great soul and well-wisher, but unfortunately he used strong words to hurt his innocent uncle. Duryodhana not only attacked Vidura's birth, but also called him an infidel because he seemed to support the cause of Yudhisthira, whom Duryodhana considered his enemy. He desired that Vidura he immediately put out of the palace and deprived of all his possessions. If possible, he would have liked him caned until he was left with nothing but his breath. He charged that Vidura was a spy of the Pandavas because he advised King Dhrtarastra in their favor. Such is the situation of palace life and the intricacies of diplomacy that even a faultless person like Vidura could be charged with something abominable and punished. Vidura was struck with wonder at such unexpected behavior from his nephew Duryodhana, and before anything actually happened, he decided to leave the palace for good.

TEXT 16

TEXT

svayam dhanur dvari nidhaya mayam

bhratuh puro marmasu tadito 'pi

sa ittham atyulbana-karna-banair

gata-vyatho 'yad uru manayanah

SYNONYMS

svayam--he himself; dhanuh dvari--bow on the door; nidhaya--keeping; mayam--the external nature; bhratuh--brother's; purah--from the palace; marmasu--in the core of the heart; taditah--being afflicted; api--in spite of; sah--he (Vidura); ittham--like this; ati-ulbana--severely; karna--ear; banaih--by the arrows; gata-vyathah--without being sorry; ayat--excited; uru--great; mana-yanah--so thinking.

TRANSLATION

Thus being pierced by arrows through his ears and afflicted to the core of his heart, Vidura placed his bow on the door and quit his brother's palace. He was not sorry, for he considered the acts of the external energy to be supreme.

PURPORT

A pure devotee of the Lord is never perturbed by an awkward position created by the external energy of the Lord. In Bhagavad-gita (3.27) it is stated:

prakrteh kriyamanani

gunaih karmani sarvasah

ahankara-vimudhatma

kartaham iti manyate

A conditioned soul is absorbed in material existence under the influence of different modes of external energy. Absorbed in the false ego, he thinks that he is doing everything by himself. The external energy of the Lord, the material nature, is fully under the control of the Supreme Lord, and the conditioned soul is fully under the grip of the external energy. Therefore, the conditioned soul is fully under the control of the law of the Lord. But, due to illusion only, he thinks himself independent in his activities. Duryodhana was acting under such influence of the external nature, by which he would be vanquished at the ultimate end. He could not accept the sound advice of Vidura, but on the contrary he insulted that great soul, who was the well-wisher of his whole family. Vidura could understand this because he was a pure devotee of the Lord. In spite of being very strongly insulted by Duryodhana's words, Vidura could see that Duryodhana, under the influence of maya, the external energy, was making progress on the path toward his own ruination. He therefore considered the acts of the external energy to be supreme, yet he also saw how the internal energy of the Lord helped him in that particular situation. A devotee is always in a renounced temperament because the worldly attractions can never satisfy him. Vidura was never attracted by the royal palace of his brother. He was always ready to leave the place and devote himself completely to the transcendental loving service of the Lord. Now he got the opportunity by the grace of Duryodhana, and instead of being sorry at the strong words of insult, he thanked him from within because it gave him the chance to live alone in a holy place and fully engage in the devotional service of the Lord. The word gata-vyathah (without being sorry) is significant here because Vidura was relieved from the tribulations which trouble every man entangled in material activities. He therefore thought that there was no need to defend his brother with his bow because his brother was meant for ruination. Thus he left the palace before Duryodhana could act. Maya, the supreme energy of the Lord, acted here both internally and externally.

SB Canto 3, Txt

 

 

Srila Prabhupada said that his mission would be a success if it produced one moon, one puredevotee.In that regard Srila GourGovinda Maharja

http://bvml.org/SGGM/index.htm

 

was proof enough that Srila Prabhupada certainly succeeded. Also Srila B.V. Naryana Maharaja

http://bvml.org/SBNM/index.htm

was one of His Divine Grace'sfirst siksa disciples.His mission is certainly successful spiritually,. whether you can see and/or appreciate that or not.Doesn't change the fact.

 

 

That most of His Divine Grace's disciples fell short,or that his institution has goneto hell ina hand basket after his disappearance is no reflection on Him. The break up of the Gaudiya Matha did not mean that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura's pure devotional service was in vain, regardless ofwhat happenend tohis institution.Try reading him morecarefully. You obviously did not take the timeto consider the principle of the "goodpreceptor"vs. any unqualified so called guru.

 

It is kali yuga, and sad sisya is as rare as sad guru.

[mrs.moore]

yes but duryodhana was just a nasty bad man.

he wasn't in any position of absolute so-called guru.

[Puru Das, das anudas]

 

What a contradiction in terms. The requirement of absolute 'surrender' is a requirement of complete control of the guru over the said disciple. There is an non-negotiable command for diksa initiation which establishes this absolute control. That's what all the controversy and corruption is about..

 

This is ridiculous. Genuine Guru can only "control" the disciple by love and affection, in the same way the Srimati Radharani "controls" or directs her sakhis. You have a twisted view of anything spiritual because of your bad experience with bhogus ecllesiastically appointed whatever they are. But guru they are not. Kindly read these verses:

 

 

 

 

The Injunction to Abandon a Bogus Guru

 

 

 

 

1.49

guror apy avaliptasya karyakaryam ajanatah

utpatha-pratipannasya parityago vidhiyate

A guru addicted to sensual pleasure and polluted by vice, who is ignorant and has no power to discriminate between right and wrong, or who is not on the path of suddha-bhakti must be abandoned. (Mahabharata, Udyoga-parva, 179.25)

1.50

snehad va lobhato vapi yo grhniyad diksaya

tasmin gurau sa-sisye tat devata sapa apatet

If a guru, disregarding the standard for giving diksa, gives the mantra to his disciple out of greed or mundane affection, he is cursed by the gods along withthat disciple. (Hari-bhakti-vilasa 2.7)

1.51

yo vyakti nyaya rahitam anyayena srnoti yah

tav ubhau narakam ghoram vrajatah kalam aksayam

One who assumes the dress and position of an acarya, who speaks against them conclusions of Srimad Bhagavatam and other scriptures, or performs kirtana opposed to the proper glorification of Sri Krsna, certainly goes to hell for countless lifetimes along with his disciples and whoever else hears such non-devotional talks

and kirtanas. (Hari-bhakti-vilasa 1.101)

1.52

vaisnava-vidvesi cet parityajya eva. "guror api avaliptasye" ti smaranat,

vaisnava-bhava-rahityena avaisnavataya avaisnavopadisteneti vacana-visaya tvacca.

Yathokta-laksanasya sri-guror-avidyamanatayastu tasyaiva maha-bhagavatasyaikasya

nitya-sevanam paramam sreyah.

A guru who is envious of pure devotees, who blasphemes them, or behaves maliciously towards them should certainly be abandoned, remembering the verse "guror api avaliptasya" (See 1.49). Such an envious guru lacks the mood and character of a Vaisnava. The sastras enjoin that one should not accept initiation

from a non-devotee (avaisnavopadistena... See 1.54). Knowing these injunctions of the scriptures, a sincere devotee abandons a false guru who is envious of devotees. After leaving one who lacks the true qualities of a guru, if a devotee is without a spiritual guide, his only hope is to seek out a mahabhagavata vaisnava and serve

him. By constantly rendering service to such a pure devotee, one will certainly attain the highest goal of life. (Bhakti-sandarbha, Annucheda 238)

 

 

 

A Materialistic, Professional, Family or Vyavaharika-guru Must be Given up

 

1.53

paramartha-gurvasrayo vyavaharika-gurvadi parityagenapi kartavyah

One should not accept a spiritual master based on hereditary, social or ecclesiastical convention. Such a professional guru should be rejected. One must accept a qualified spiritual master, who can help one advance towards the ultimate

goal of life, krsna-prema. (Bhakti-sandarbha, annucheda 210)

 

 

 

Who Rejects a False Guru Must Accept a Real Guru

 

1.54

avaisnavopadistena mantrena nirayam vrajet

punas ca vidhina samyag grahayed vaisnavad guroh

One who gets his mantra from a guru who is a non-devotee or who is addictedto sensual pleasure is doomed to a life in hell. Such a person must immediately approach a genuine Vaisnava guru and again accept the mantra from him.

(Hari-bhakti-vilasa 4.366)

 

 

 

 

Seems to me that you have never met a sad guru, pure devotee of Lord Krsna, or you would have a different perspective. More on this tattva is found here ,in the Gaudiya Kantahara:

http://bvml.org/SGK/01.html

 

 

 

A Genuine Guru Knows the Truth About Krsna, is Surrendered to Him, and is Well-

 

 

 

Versed in the Vedic Literature

 

 

 

 

1.14

tasmad gurum prapadyeta

jijnasuh sreya uttamam

sabde pare ca nisnatam

brahmany upasamasrayam

One who is searching for the Ultimate Truth must surrender to a guru who knows the inner meaning of the Vedas, is fixed in the Absolute Truth and is expert in the sastra. (Bhag. 11.3.21)

1.15

krpa-sindhuh su-sampurnah

sarva-sattvopakarakah

nisprhah sarvatah siddhah

sarva-vidya-visaradah

sarva-samsaya-samchetta

'nalaso gurur ahrtah

One who is an ocean of mercy, who is fulfilled in all respects, who has all good qualities, who works for the benefit of all souls, who is free from lust, who is perfect in all respects, who is well-versed in the scriptures, who knows the science of Krsna, who can remove all the doubts of his disciples, and who is always alert in

the service of Krsna is known as a genuine guru.

(Hari-bhakti-vilasa 1.45,46 quoted from Visnu-smrti Vacan

 

 

 

 

Who is an Acarya?

 

 

 

 

1.22

upaniya tu yah sisyam veda-madhyapayed dvijah

sankalpam sa-rahasyam ca tam acaryam pracaksate

An acarya is not one who only confers the sacred thread. He trains his disciples in sacrifice and teaches them the confidential meaning of the Vedas. Such a spiritual master is an acarya, according to saintly authorities.

(Manu-samhita 2.140)

1.23

acinoti yah sastrartham acare sthapayaty api

svayam acarate yasmad acaryas tena kirttitah

An acarya is one who fully understands the conclusions of the revealed scriptures and whose behavior reflects his deep realization. He is a living example for he teaches the meaning of the scriptures both by word and deed. (Vayu Purana)

 

 

 

Example Is Better Than Precept

 

1.24

yad yad acarati sresthas tat tad evetaro janah

sa yat pramanam kurute lokas tad anuvartate

Whatever a great man does, common men follow. Whatever standards he sets By exemplary acts, all the world pursues. (Bhagavad-gita 3.21)

1.25

apane acare keha, na kare pracara

pracara karena keha, na karena acara

'acara' 'pracara' namera karaha 'dui' karya

tumi sarva-guru, tumi jagatera arya

Some practice but do not preach, others preach but do not practice, but one who is perfect in both preaching and practice is the guru of the entire universe. You are a real jagad-guru, for you practice what you preach.

(Cc. Antya 4.102,103)

1.26

apane karimu bhakta-bhava angikare

apani acari' bhakti sikhamu sabare

I shall accept the role of a devotee, and I shall teach bhakti to everyone by practicing it Myself. (Cc. Adi 3.20)

1.27

apani na kaile dharma sikhana na yaya

If I do not do this Myself, then the principles of religion will not be taught. (Cc. Adi 3.21)

[url="http://bvml.org/SGK/01.html"]

[Puru Das, das anudas]

 

I will never surrender to another human being. That is diabolical and a very bizarre condition for linking up to a loving God.

 

Don't think that pure devotees are anything but mercy personified. Be careful not to confuse your experience with actual Gaudiya Siddhanta.

Who burned you anyway. You want my list?You want me to tell you how many iskcon temples I've been ejected from for preaching what is written in His Divine Grace's books?, howmany nasty things so called godbrothers did to me and my family. Let thepast go, forget it ;it sleeps.

 

 

 

 

Who Thinks the Spiritual Master an Ordinary man Goes to Hell

 

1.56

gurusu nara-matir yasya va naraki sah

One who thinks that the spiritual master is an ordinary man is said to live in hell. (Padma Purana)

 

 

 

Who Thinks the Guru an Ordinary man Finds his

 

 

 

Attempts at Spiritual Progress as Useless as an Elephant's <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City><st1:place>Bath</st1:place></st1:City>

 

1.57

yasya saksad bhagavati jnana-dipa prade gurau

martyasad-dhih srutam tasya sarvam kunjara-saucavat

The guru is considered as the Supreme Lord Himself, because he gives the light of transcendental knowledge to his disciples. Consequently, for one who maintains the material conception that the guru is an ordinary human being,

everything is frustrated. His attempts to progress in spiritual life, his Vedic studies and scriptural knowledge, his penances and austerities, and his worship of the Deity are all as useless as the bathing of an elephant. (Bhag. 7.15.26)

[Avinash]

 

i think vaisnavas meditate on their guru in a not-so-human form... like a cowherd boy or whatever

 

A cowherd boy also has human form.

[Puru Das, das anudas]

 

yes but duryodhana was just a nasty bad man.

he wasn't in any position of absolute so-called guru.

 

Indeed, but the point of Vidura's example is how he reacted to that nasty bad man. If any nasty bad man is sitting on a vyasasana because he has the gbc rubber stamp of ecclesiasticl approval, doesn't make him a bona fide anything, let alone a bona fide spiritual master. The dog can also sit on the vyasasna. Throw out a bone and he runs off of it and chases it. The mosquito can also sit right next to the guru, but all he can do is cause disturbance and suck the guru's blood. If the shoe fits, wear it, otherwise not.