Guest guest Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 Namaste to all members, Thanks to everyone for their kind words of welcome to the role of incoming Chief Moderator (from 1st Jan). I hope I will be able to justice to such an honoured position! And I hope that everyone will join me in thanking the outgoing chief-moderator, Sri Greg Goode, for all of the work he has done over the past year. It is in recognition of the considerable administrative burden of maintaining the group that I wish to simplify and streamline these aspects so that I can devote more of the time I spend in this role to what I consider to be a more important function - making the group even better than it is already. Firstly, then, before outlining the nature of the initiative for the coming year, I would like to cover these administrative changes. Beginning from January, all members will be given full posting privileges as soon as they join and no one will be moderated in the sense of having their messages checked prior to posting onto the group. (Note that joining will still be vetted in order to prevent spam and any other abuses.) The guidelines for posting remain the same and it will be each member's own responsibility to ensure that they are familiar with these guidelines. Thus, posts must be 'on-topic' (i.e. directly related to Advaita as systematized by Shankara) and must always be couched in a respectful tone and so on. To avoid any danger of this 'leniency' being abused, a 'yellow card' system will be instigated, which will operate in a precisely analogous manner to that in football. Anyone who fails to follow the guidelines is liable to be awarded a 'yellow card' by any moderator who spots the infringement. The penalty will be announced publicly. No arguments or discussion about this will be permitted. To guard against the danger of an unfair award, there is an effective second chance in that a subsequent penalty will be given a second 'yellow card'. Members' privileges will continue unchanged at this stage. On a third infringement, upon majority agreement of the moderators, a 'red card' will be given and the member will be expelled from the group. Again, no discussion will be allowed; the moderators' decision will be final. All penalties will remain in place for one year following their award. Other than this, the basic operation of the group will continue unchanged and there is really no reason why any cards need ever be awarded. I have been a member of numerous groups over the years and I can say unequivocally that this is the best behaved group I have encountered. (As, of course, it should be given the nature of its purpose!) On, then, to the 2007 initiative: the year will be dedicated to the beginners on the group. There are many wonderful but often rather abstruse discussions on various advanced topics on the group. It is understandable that many members may read these and marvel but not altogether fully appreciate them! They are often also full of Sanskrit terms and Advaitic concepts that are assumed to be understood by all, when this is clearly not the case. Accordingly, beginning in January, there will be two separate initiatives. The first of these is the 'Weekly Word or Concept'. Each week, a senior member will provide a simple and fairly brief (several paragraphs) description of a single Sanskrit word or a concept in Advaita. (As Ananda-ji has pointed out, this could also include English words that are used in a specific way in discussions on Advaita and which may not always tally with their everyday usage.) These descriptions will not themselves use any Sanskrit words or concepts unless they have already been defined or unless the description itself defines them. The moderators will cover the first two months but, thereafter, senior members are asked to volunteer to provide some definitions themselves. Over time (and it is hoped this will continue into future years), this should build up into a comprehensive 'Definition of Terms' for future members. (I will also host the material at my website www.advaita.org.uk). This 'Weekly Word' is not expected to generate any discussion, unless it is deemed to be unclear. Clarification or rewording is certainly invited so as to ensure that the archive, at the end of the week, is as clear as possible for future readers. I will begin the posts in January with 'bhAga tyAga lakShaNa', 'satyam - mithyA', 'adhyAropa - apavAda' and 'adhyAsa'. The second initiative is a monthly 'Topic for Beginners'. Again, this will be posted by a moderator or senior member but the topic will be one specifically relevant to the beginner and, again, it will not use any words or concepts that have not previously been defined. The difference here is that this topic will be for discussion, with all questions, no matter how simple they may be thought to be by the originator, being actively sought. We want all beginners, and those who have not previously contributed, to join in and make sure that they understand everything. Senior members will not be barred from contributing, of course, but they should do so only with the interests of the beginner in mind, i.e. to clarify rather than debate some academic point. The topic for January will be 'Why Vedanta?', led by Sri Sadananda. Sri Professor Krishnamurthy (profvk) will take over for Feb - March with 'Who is the Doer? Who is the Experiencer?' Obviously, normal discussions on other topics (probably still mainly involving a few senior members!) will continue as before. Would all senior members (where 'senior' relates to knowledge of Advaita rather than age!) please have a look at the provisional list of weekly and monthly topics and select one or two 'words or concepts', which you would be prepared to cover. This list is in an Excel spreadsheet, 'weekly topics.xls', in the Advaitin Files area. Please email me directly with your offers and I will add them to the spreadsheet and upload the revision. You are also welcome to suggest any others not currently listed. You are further invited to offer to prepare a major topic for a monthly discussion, bearing in mind the criteria given above. This initiative will only succeed if those members who are able agree to help in this way. We know that there are a lot of you so there is no excuse!) Best wishes, Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 Namaste Dennisji Your introductory words gives renewed hope for the future well being of the Group. I fully support the yellow card system which should have been introduced way back. I also heartly welcome the initiative for the beginners. Thanks once again.-- G Janardhanan Nair - "Dennis Waite" <dwaite (AT) advaita (DOT) org.uk> <advaitin> Saturday, 23 December, 2006 12:25 AM Progam for 2007 > Namaste to all members, > > Thanks to everyone for their kind words of welcome to the role of incoming > Chief Moderator (from 1st Jan). I hope I will be able to justice to such > an > honoured position! And I hope that everyone will join me in thanking the > outgoing chief-moderator, Sri Greg Goode, for all of the work he has done > over the past year. > > It is in recognition of the considerable administrative burden of > maintaining the group that I wish to simplify and streamline these aspects > so that I can devote more of the time I spend in this role to what I > consider to be a more important function - making the group even better > than > it is already. > > Firstly, then, before outlining the nature of the initiative for the > coming > year, I would like to cover these administrative changes. > > Beginning from January, all members will be given full posting privileges > as > soon as they join and no one will be moderated in the sense of having > their > messages checked prior to posting onto the group. (Note that joining will > still be vetted in order to prevent spam and any other abuses.) The > guidelines for posting remain the same and it will be each member's own > responsibility to ensure that they are familiar with these guidelines. > Thus, > posts must be 'on-topic' (i.e. directly related to Advaita as systematized > by Shankara) and must always be couched in a respectful tone and so on. > > To avoid any danger of this 'leniency' being abused, a 'yellow card' > system > will be instigated, which will operate in a precisely analogous manner to > that in football. Anyone who fails to follow the guidelines is liable to > be > awarded a 'yellow card' by any moderator who spots the infringement. The > penalty will be announced publicly. No arguments or discussion about this > will be permitted. To guard against the danger of an unfair award, there > is > an effective second chance in that a subsequent penalty will be given a > second 'yellow card'. Members' privileges will continue unchanged at this > stage. On a third infringement, upon majority agreement of the moderators, > a > 'red card' will be given and the member will be expelled from the group. > Again, no discussion will be allowed; the moderators' decision will be > final. All penalties will remain in place for one year following their > award. > > Other than this, the basic operation of the group will continue unchanged > and there is really no reason why any cards need ever be awarded. I have > been a member of numerous groups over the years and I can say > unequivocally > that this is the best behaved group I have encountered. (As, of course, it > should be given the nature of its purpose!) > > On, then, to the 2007 initiative: the year will be dedicated to the > beginners on the group. There are many wonderful but often rather abstruse > discussions on various advanced topics on the group. It is understandable > that many members may read these and marvel but not altogether fully > appreciate them! They are often also full of Sanskrit terms and Advaitic > concepts that are assumed to be understood by all, when this is clearly > not > the case. Accordingly, beginning in January, there will be two separate > initiatives. > > The first of these is the 'Weekly Word or Concept'. Each week, a senior > member will provide a simple and fairly brief (several paragraphs) > description of a single Sanskrit word or a concept in Advaita. (As > Ananda-ji > has pointed out, this could also include English words that are used in a > specific way in discussions on Advaita and which may not always tally with > their everyday usage.) These descriptions will not themselves use any > Sanskrit words or concepts unless they have already been defined or unless > the description itself defines them. The moderators will cover the first > two > months but, thereafter, senior members are asked to volunteer to provide > some definitions themselves. Over time (and it is hoped this will continue > into future years), this should build up into a comprehensive 'Definition > of > Terms' for future members. (I will also host the material at my website > www.advaita.org.uk). This 'Weekly Word' is not expected to generate any > discussion, unless it is deemed to be unclear. Clarification or rewording > is > certainly invited so as to ensure that the archive, at the end of the > week, > is as clear as possible for future readers. I will begin the posts in > January with 'bhAga tyAga lakShaNa', 'satyam - mithyA', 'adhyAropa - > apavAda' and 'adhyAsa'. > > The second initiative is a monthly 'Topic for Beginners'. Again, this will > be posted by a moderator or senior member but the topic will be one > specifically relevant to the beginner and, again, it will not use any > words > or concepts that have not previously been defined. The difference here is > that this topic will be for discussion, with all questions, no matter how > simple they may be thought to be by the originator, being actively sought. > We want all beginners, and those who have not previously contributed, to > join in and make sure that they understand everything. Senior members will > not be barred from contributing, of course, but they should do so only > with > the interests of the beginner in mind, i.e. to clarify rather than debate > some academic point. The topic for January will be 'Why Vedanta?', led by > Sri Sadananda. Sri Professor Krishnamurthy (profvk) will take over for > Feb - > March with 'Who is the Doer? Who is the Experiencer?' > > Obviously, normal discussions on other topics (probably still mainly > involving a few senior members!) will continue as before. > > Would all senior members (where 'senior' relates to knowledge of Advaita > rather than age!) please have a look at the provisional list of weekly and > monthly topics and select one or two 'words or concepts', which you would > be > prepared to cover. This list is in an Excel spreadsheet, 'weekly > topics.xls', in the Advaitin Files area. Please email me directly with > your > offers and I will add them to the spreadsheet and upload the revision. You > are also welcome to suggest any others not currently listed. You are > further > invited to offer to prepare a major topic for a monthly discussion, > bearing > in mind the criteria given above. This initiative will only succeed if > those > members who are able agree to help in this way. We know that there are a > lot > of you so there is no excuse!) > > Best wishes, > > Dennis > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 Namaste Dennis-ji, Good to read of active plans to increase the knowledge of beginners in the group. I might add it also seems to be in regard to some of the 'fundamentals' that a number of our most learned members seem to disagree. So I am sure the whole list may benefit. I wonder if, at some stage, we might work through something like Upadesa Sahasri. To know the meaning of words is helpful; to understand the part they play in ideas is invaluable. To follow your football analogy, I trust that queerying the rules and referee's decision does not in itself warrant a yellow card. I ask because I can't help feeling we may be swinging between extremes. Over the last 9 months, there seemed to be a number of occassions where the list would have benefitted from Moderator intervention, which on the whole did not come unsolicited (see Shyam's recent 'wake up call to the moderators' for example). According to the Moderators, there was no real reason to intervene as the members largely moderate themselves. However, now we are moving to the other end of the spectrum with a penalty system of two strikes and your out. Is there no middle way? If we are such a good group as your experience tells, and the moderators maintained, then the penalty system seems somewhat harsh. You write: "To avoid any danger of this 'leniency' being abused, a 'yellow card' system will be instigated, which will operate in a precisely analogous manner tothat in football. Anyone who fails to follow the guidelines is liable to beawarded a 'yellow card' by any moderator who spots the infringement. The penalty will be announced publicly. No arguments or discussion about this will be permitted." Does this mean that moderators are necessarily infallible in terms of their perceptions or that it will always be crystal clear to everyone when someone has violated the rules of the list, say, by posting off topic, as can easily happen as a thread develops? You continue: "To guard against the danger of an unfair award, there is an effective second chance in that a subsequent penalty will be given a second 'yellow card'." If there is an unfair award made in the first instance, then to be told one has a second chance is also unfair. A second chance is normally given only to someone who has commited a breach of conduct in the first place. If the person has not commited such a breach of rules but been unfairly judged, then surely they are still on their first chance - which now seems to be the status of the whole group. Best wishes, Peter ________________________________ advaitin [advaitin] On Behalf Of Dennis Waite 22 December 2006 18:55 advaitin Progam for 2007 Namaste to all members, Thanks to everyone for their kind words of welcome to the role of incoming Chief Moderator (from 1st Jan). I hope I will be able to justice to such an honoured position! And I hope that everyone will join me in thanking the outgoing chief-moderator, Sri Greg Goode, for all of the work he has done over the past year. It is in recognition of the considerable administrative burden of maintaining the group that I wish to simplify and streamline these aspects so that I can devote more of the time I spend in this role to what I consider to be a more important function - making the group even better than it is already. Firstly, then, before outlining the nature of the initiative for the coming year, I would like to cover these administrative changes. Beginning from January, all members will be given full posting privileges as soon as they join and no one will be moderated in the sense of having their messages checked prior to posting onto the group. (Note that joining will still be vetted in order to prevent spam and any other abuses.) The guidelines for posting remain the same and it will be each member's own responsibility to ensure that they are familiar with these guidelines. Thus, posts must be 'on-topic' (i.e. directly related to Advaita as systematized by Shankara) and must always be couched in a respectful tone and so on. To avoid any danger of this 'leniency' being abused, a 'yellow card' system will be instigated, which will operate in a precisely analogous manner to that in football. Anyone who fails to follow the guidelines is liable to be awarded a 'yellow card' by any moderator who spots the infringement. The penalty will be announced publicly. No arguments or discussion about this will be permitted. To guard against the danger of an unfair award, there is an effective second chance in that a subsequent penalty will be given a second 'yellow card'. Members' privileges will continue unchanged at this stage. On a third infringement, upon majority agreement of the moderators, a 'red card' will be given and the member will be expelled from the group. Again, no discussion will be allowed; the moderators' decision will be final. All penalties will remain in place for one year following their award. Other than this, the basic operation of the group will continue unchanged and there is really no reason why any cards need ever be awarded. I have been a member of numerous groups over the years and I can say unequivocally that this is the best behaved group I have encountered. (As, of course, it should be given the nature of its purpose!) On, then, to the 2007 initiative: the year will be dedicated to the beginners on the group. There are many wonderful but often rather abstruse discussions on various advanced topics on the group. It is understandable that many members may read these and marvel but not altogether fully appreciate them! They are often also full of Sanskrit terms and Advaitic concepts that are assumed to be understood by all, when this is clearly not the case. Accordingly, beginning in January, there will be two separate initiatives. The first of these is the 'Weekly Word or Concept'. Each week, a senior member will provide a simple and fairly brief (several paragraphs) description of a single Sanskrit word or a concept in Advaita. (As Ananda-ji has pointed out, this could also include English words that are used in a specific way in discussions on Advaita and which may not always tally with their everyday usage.) These descriptions will not themselves use any Sanskrit words or concepts unless they have already been defined or unless the description itself defines them. The moderators will cover the first two months but, thereafter, senior members are asked to volunteer to provide some definitions themselves. Over time (and it is hoped this will continue into future years), this should build up into a comprehensive 'Definition of Terms' for future members. (I will also host the material at my website www.advaita.org.uk). This 'Weekly Word' is not expected to generate any discussion, unless it is deemed to be unclear. Clarification or rewording is certainly invited so as to ensure that the archive, at the end of the week, is as clear as possible for future readers. I will begin the posts in January with 'bhAga tyAga lakShaNa', 'satyam - mithyA', 'adhyAropa - apavAda' and 'adhyAsa'. The second initiative is a monthly 'Topic for Beginners'. Again, this will be posted by a moderator or senior member but the topic will be one specifically relevant to the beginner and, again, it will not use any words or concepts that have not previously been defined. The difference here is that this topic will be for discussion, with all questions, no matter how simple they may be thought to be by the originator, being actively sought. We want all beginners, and those who have not previously contributed, to join in and make sure that they understand everything. Senior members will not be barred from contributing, of course, but they should do so only with the interests of the beginner in mind, i.e. to clarify rather than debate some academic point. The topic for January will be 'Why Vedanta?', led by Sri Sadananda. Sri Professor Krishnamurthy (profvk) will take over for Feb - March with 'Who is the Doer? Who is the Experiencer?' Obviously, normal discussions on other topics (probably still mainly involving a few senior members!) will continue as before. Would all senior members (where 'senior' relates to knowledge of Advaita rather than age!) please have a look at the provisional list of weekly and monthly topics and select one or two 'words or concepts', which you would be prepared to cover. This list is in an Excel spreadsheet, 'weekly topics.xls', in the Advaitin Files area. Please email me directly with your offers and I will add them to the spreadsheet and upload the revision. You are also welcome to suggest any others not currently listed. You are further invited to offer to prepare a major topic for a monthly discussion, bearing in mind the criteria given above. This initiative will only succeed if those members who are able agree to help in this way. We know that there are a lot of you so there is no excuse!) Best wishes, Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2006 Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 Dear Dennis-ji, Welcome as chief moderator. I am very happy to note that 2007 has been dedicated for beginners. As a Beginner I request you to include some prakarana Granthas. I would appreciate if you could request some senior memebers to post on Panchadasi and viveka chudamai. Thanks Ravi Salem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2006 Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 Namste Peter-ji : You have made some excellent observations re the proposed 'card' system as suggested by Dennisji for 2007 . i am glad you have put all cards on the table - any pun intended is intentional !! Yes! when we were new immigrants to the United States , the very first question that was put to us during job interviews was 'are you a Green card holder ? " - thus, Green card came to be associated with acceptance ! Peterji , you brought up an interesting point - Do members really monitor themselves - i do not think so ! it is just that some members enjoy more freedom and lattitude in what they can say and get away with it . believe me , it is not always about Sankara's Advaita that there is a disagreement about ! the disagreements are at many levels - coceptual , philosophical and above all in interpretation of theories . Peterji - you also mention (Does this mean that moderators are necessarily infallible in terms of their> perceptions or that it will always be crystal clear to everyone when someone > has violated the rules of the list, say, by posting off topic, as can easily> happen as a thread develops) You have hit the nail on the head . There are always digressions , distractions and above all deviations from the topic under discussion . In any case nobody is perfect least of all moderators but at least with Dennis-ji proposed system of Yellow cards , all of us get a fair and equal chance , would you not agree ? In London, when you are riding the trains , you always hear the announcement 'Mind the Gap' - To paraphrase that expression , we must all ''Mind our Ps and Qs '- follow rules of Etiquette , be polite and courteous and avoid veiled sarcasm and personal attacks ! the two part yellow card system is 'ideally' suited to punish repeat offenders. but i have my reservations about the Red card - the crime does not warrant the punishment proposed - no body should be expelled from a group - that seems to be like a 'death' sentence - rather , an offending member should be denied posting privileges in the group - when the posting privileges are denied , the offending member may feel so frustrated that he/she may quit the group on his/her terms - quitting seems to be more honorable than being expelled , don't you think ? A bird without wings cannot fly and will therefore return to its nest to rest . Dennisji deserves applause for these suggestions because many of the moderators are too busy with their careers and family responsibilities and simply do not have the 'time' to attend to their Moderator responsibilities ! If you see, today's posts , you will know what i mean - in a group where only .5% is moderated , it took the moderator 'two whole days' to approve some posts ... But , in all fairness , let us give it an honest try and see if it works - we can always make changes if it fails ! On another note , i am pleased to see some old and valuable members are returning back - Vinayaka-ji, welcome back! This augurs well for the group ! Wishing you all a very Merry Chistmas and a Happy New Year ! "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. " (Galatians 5:22,23) Let 2007 herald 'NEW BEGINNINGS ' for all of us . love and only love advaitin, "Peter" <not_2 wrote: > > Namaste Dennis-ji, > > Good to read of active plans to increase the knowledge of beginners in the > group. I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2006 Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 Thanks to Ravi-ji and Peter-ji for excellent suggestions for discussions. vivekachUDAmaNi, pa~NchadashI and upadesha sAhasrI would obviously all be worthy of presentation and subsequent discussion. However, each would be a major undertaking and could easily occupy the group in discussion for the entire year (if not several!). I feel that any attempt to address these in addition to the existing suggestions would divide attention far too much. A single verse from VC could take up a month's discussion. (In fact I seem to recall that it has!) Accordingly, I suggest that these be put on hold, with a view to taking up one of them next year? Perhaps Ram-ji could consider this? It would also require considerable planning and effort (not to mention knowledge!) on the part of whoever was to direct it. This would need to be arranged well in advance of commencement. The moderators will consider this as an option for next year. Regarding the weekly topic, Ananda-ji has made the excellent suggestion that, although we have decided that no discussion of these is appropriate, we should allow members to provide alternative definitions. This is necessary because many words and concepts are used in slightly (sometimes significantly!) different ways according to the context. Different authors may have different contexts in mind for their definitions so it will be extremely valuable to include all relevant ones in the archive. Best wishes, Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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