religion means being a slave - Thy will be done

[cbrahma]

So many atrocities have been committed in the name of religion. Violence is being inflicted in Iraq at the moment under that rubric. Even Bush sees himself mandated by God. India's history is red with blood shed. The crusades ravaged the land with pillaging, rape and destruction in their wake. Innocent people were tortured and killed in the Inquisition 'for the good of their souls' etc... More recently the brutalities and murders in ISKCON.

All of it can be accounted for by one principle - Absolute subjugation to a group or an individual. God is Love. Freedom is the essential condition of love. Even Jesus did not expect total prostration, in fact forbade it.

Totalitarian enslavement of mind and soul is not of God. It is darkness, evil.

[Guest guest]

 

Freedom is the essential condition of love. Even Jesus did not expect total prostration, in fact forbade it.

Totalitarian enslavement of mind and soul is not of God. It is darkness, evil.

 

For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

-- Matthew 5:18-20

 

 

...Having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

-- Romans 6:22

[cbrahma]

Let's not forget slavery was a commonplace at the time Paul wrote the slave passage. So the analogy is just that - an analogy.

Oh there are all kinds of 'hard' teachings that Christ gave that religious totalitarians and despots cling to and build on, totally out of context of his main message of course.

They do this in the same way the Pharisees condemned Jesus on many occasions for breaking the Sabbath etc...

Jesus IS the Law incarnate. He IS the fulfillment of the law. He spoke these words after the Beatitudes. They are not in condemnation, but a promise.

Legalism, subjugation to human self-appointed religionists, is the stuff of religious violence of the kind that inspire suicide bombers and arbortion clinic bombing. Fanatics love power hierarchies and lots and lots of laws.

Because their impulse is to control and condemn, not to serve.

Christ discipleship is not slavish. It is an act of grace not works, faith not legal purity. Most importantly Christ ought to be worshipped and followed - because he is God incarnate.

 

 

For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

-- Matthew 5:18-20

 

 

...Having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

-- Romans 6:22

[Kulapavana]

 

So many atrocities have been committed in the name of religion.

 

even more atrocities have been committed in the name of patriotism.

 

primitive people have primitive religions and they act like savages. that does not mean that it has to be that way. seek out advanced religious concepts and stay away from religious savages.

[Guest guest]

You need to see a psychologist.

 

If you have so many problems with ISKCON, just get out and find some place else.

 

 

So many atrocities have been committed in the name of religion. Violence is being inflicted in Iraq at the moment under that rubric. Even Bush sees himself mandated by God. India's history is red with blood shed. The crusades ravaged the land with pillaging, rape and destruction in their wake. Innocent people were tortured and killed in the Inquisition 'for the good of their souls' etc... More recently the brutalities and murders in ISKCON.

All of it can be accounted for by one principle - Absolute subjugation to a group or an individual. God is Love. Freedom is the essential condition of love. Even Jesus did not expect total prostration, in fact forbade it.

Totalitarian enslavement of mind and soul is not of God. It is darkness, evil.

[cbrahma]

Patriotism is the close cousin of religion. "God and country" are often sounded together.

 

 

even more atrocities have been committed in the name of patriotism.

 

primitive people have primitive religions and they act like savages. that does not mean that it has to be that way. seek out advanced religious concepts and stay away from religious savages.

[cbrahma]

Who said I was IN ISKCON? Why don't you have the courage to identify yourself? Sniping personal attacks behind an anonynous login is cowardice.

Are you apsycholgist? A psychic or clairvoyant maybe. You are in denial about the public documented atrocities spawned by religion. Very sane and healthy persons have noted this. Do you need some references?

 

 

You need to see a psychologist.

 

If you have so many problems with ISKCON, just get out and find some place else.

[Beggar]

I think that one of the main reasons people are attacking you so much is your lack of clarity. Most of the posters here are western men who like to compete. Many of these dicsussions are really debates. Its not really possible to debate an issue with someone if they are constantly going off point and even changing the issue mid-stream. Not only that, it drives most people crazy and thats one of the reasons that they (we) are lashing out at you.

These are the issues or questions that you are raising, mixing together and jumping back and forth amongst:

1) Can humans approach God directly without an intermediary?

2) Does religious hierarchy, that is organized religion, always lead to repression and oppression?

3) Is there really and omnipotent, omniscient and merciful God? And if so why do bad things happen to good people?

4) Is the God of Israel the only real God and is Jesus Christ His "only begotten son" and the only saviour of all human-kind? And can Jesus be approached directly?

Many of the persons that ISKCON (through Prabhupada's preaching) has drawn in are not really Gaudiya Vaisnavas at heart. So much of "preaching" is really just propaganda and not the real cannons of Mahaprabhu's movement. It seems that you are a person captured by the propaganda and now regreting it. Whether or not you want to accept the real precepts of Gaudiya Vaisnavism or return to Christianity is really about your own soul searching and should not be subject to an internet debate. Often those who engage in such a debate are no longer acting in good faith but rather have a grudge or "axe to grind".

[cbrahma]

The thread is mine. I continued the topic very consistently. It was everything I could do to prevent personal attacks and readdress issues. That is a very feeble excuse.

 

 

I think that one of the main reasons people are attacking you so much is your lack of clarity. Most of the posters here are western men who like to compete. Many of these dicsussions are really debates. Its not really possible to debate an issue with someone if they are constantly going off point and even changing the issue mid-stream. Not only that, it drives most people crazy and thats one of the reasons that they (we) are lashing out at you.

These are the issues or questions that you are raising, mixing together and jumping back and forth amongst:

1) Can humans approach God directly without an intermediary?

2) Does religious hierarchy, that is organized religion, always lead to repression and oppression?

3) Is there really and omnipotent, omniscient and merciful God? And if so why do bad things happen to good people?

4) Is the God of Israel the only real God and is Jesus Christ His "only begotten son" and the only saviour of all human-kind? And can Jesus be approached directly?

Many of the persons that ISKCON (through Prabhupada's preaching) has drawn in are not really Gaudiya Vaisnavas at heart. So much of "preaching" is really just propaganda and not the real cannons of Mahaprabhu's movement. It seems that you are a person captured by the propaganda and now regreting it. Whether or not you want to accept the real precepts of Gaudiya Vaisnavism or return to Christianity is really about your own soul searching and should not be subject to an internet debate. Often those who engage in such a debate are no longer acting in good faith but rather have a grudge or "axe to grind".

[Beggar]

 

The thread is mine. I continued the topic very consistently. It was everything I could do to prevent personal attacks and readdress issues. That is a very feeble excuse.

You posted your reply 3 minutes after I posted mine. There is no way that you actually read closely and thought about what I said. I consequently believe that you are not acting in "good faith" and I am hereby requesting Administrator 5 to combine this thread with your previous thread and lock it.

I am also request that cbrahma be prohibited from starting threads on this forum.

[cbrahma]

Good luck with your hostile campaign. You obviously have a personal problem.

Your excuse didnt' require much thinking.

It is quite arrogant to presume that disagreement has to be in 'bad faith'.

 

 

 

You posted you reply 3 minutes after I posted mine. There is no way that you actually read closely and thought about what I said. I consequently believe that you are not acting in "good faith" and I am hereby requesting Administrator 5 to combine this thread with your previous thread and lock it.

I am also request that cbrahma be prohibited from starting threads on this forum.

[Guest guest]

I agree. All that CBRAHMA is doing is start nonsensical propaganda threads. he should not be allowed to start new threads if he continues this trend.

 

 

You posted your reply 3 minutes after I posted mine. There is no way that you actually read closely and thought about what I said. I consequently believe that you are not acting in "good faith" and I am hereby requesting Administrator 5 to combine this thread with your previous thread and lock it.

I am also request that cbrahma be prohibited from starting threads on this forum.