vaisnava guru

[mahak]

Vaisnavism is often described as the descending process. Both occidental and oriental philosophies that confirm the goal in life is to be yoked with the Supreme Personality in loving relationship clearly describe that such a yoking is facilitated by the Will of the Supreme Lord. The Will of the Supreme Lord is the initiator of the yoking process, thus His feature of Sri Krsna, the all attractive, is the appropriate receptacle of the highest level of reciprocation of loving relationship endeavor.

 

On the other hand, ascending process philosophies are endeavors by the individual by their own initiative, to raise self-awareness through the sphere of the temporal to the platform of a spiritual nature, often quite mechanical. Because of this dependence on the self, often intervention by higher authority is neglected if not rejected entirely. Ascending processes establish the self as the Supreme Being capable of such great accomplishment, be it by acquisition of empiric knowledge, perfection of the mystic arts, etc. This "self only" philosophy results in the self being the means as well as the end of the quest for perfection. All knowledge may be present, eternality may be present, and freedom from the duality associated with the temporal world may also be available. However, ascending processes do not eventually lead to memory of spiritual identity due to the neglect in establishing relationship with the Supreme Lord. Teachers of ascending processes, if successful in imparting their knowledge to their students, have naturally created competitors who view themselves as the same person as their teacher. One can enter the clear light of the atmosphere of the spiritual realm, but not the variegated "mansions" of the Kingdom of God that are reserved for confidential servants acting in accordance with spiritual identity.

 

Although many ascending paths advertise as being various types of yoga, such a term is a misnomer. Yoga cannot be performed in a vacuum. The word itself indicates relationship, as “yoking” does to the adherents of occidental spiritual sciences. Even astanga, hatha and kundalini paths recognize the recipient of their austerities and subsequent pleasure and reward from the object of such practice. For scholars of western philosophies, the story of the tower of Babel is a very nice description of the futility of adopting an ascending path of personal effort. In oriental scripture, self-perfection quests are usually the stories of notorious figures such as Hiranyakasipu, King Bali prior to Lord Vamana's appearance, or other members of the asura class. Aside from misrepresenting the term "yoga", other items are impossible, yet casually presented, such as the idea of "Bodhisattwa", the compassionate descent from mystic liquid to uplift others, when compassion is only possible for those who acknowledge transcendental forms of diverse variety.

 

The descending process of God Himself taking the initiative in providing the topmost yoga to the fortunate living being, fitting in the category of the frustrated, the needy, the inquisitive, and the wise, is described in the Vaisnavism primer, the Bhagavad Gita. The very beginning of the philosophical understanding of Bhakti explains thoroughly the vehicle used in such a process, where the Supreme Lord descends to approach the four types of eligible candidates. This process is guru-tattwa, the system of associates fixed up in loving relationship with the Supreme Person, acting and empowered to act as intermediaries and preceptors to deliver God intact to the individual.

 

All intermediaries and preceptors are known as Guru, translated as one-pointedly performing the business of the Supreme Lord. The job of such empowered representatives is non-different than the Will of God, and this representation carries the same weight of Divinity as the full Divinity of the Supreme Lord. Srila Prabhupada, by His wonderful way of describing such guru-tattwa to His relatively uncultured disciples, uses the Postal System as a great example. The Main Post Office is God, but Postal Authority extends to not only official post boxes, but also to official employees of the Post Office and even to one's personal box at home. The key point is the main Post Office recognition of the satellite authority. One may construct an artificial post box that looks the same, someone may don the uniform of a postal employee without official position, yet without recognition by the Post Office, no connection is there, and the purpose of postal authority is thwarted in such concocted artificiality. There is no difference in placing a letter at the main branch, the remote box or the residential box with a flag raised to indicate outgoing. The letter is fully covered by authority and properly delivered, so all recognized satellites are as good as the main office.

 

So, back to the original thought of guru-tattwa, very analogous to this simple parable delivered by the expert guide, Srila Prabhupada, the descending process of Vaisnavism is also covered by "recognition" of empowerment. Guru is not only a term describing the agency; it also describes the branch office, employees of the office, receptacles of the office and the remote recognized delivery sites. We have God, residing as the Lord in the Heart, His first line agent providing access to Sri Chaitagurudeva, recognized servants of the agent and even the recipients of all this service, all are connected in a qualitative divinity by this arrangement.

 

Acintya Bheda bheda tattwa is a way to understand qualitative divinity from quantitative divinity. Divinity is not the issue at all, as all beings, moving and non-moving, have eternality and are impervious to the seeming duality of the temporal world. This is confirmed by Sri Krsna, clearly stating that neither birth nor death, heat - cold, pleasure - pain, etc., have influence on the living entity. Only the insanity of forgetfulness of spiritual identity, swarup, causes concern for these things, and all gurus are sent to break this bubble of insanity.

 

One great acarya gives full recognition as guru to a prostitute who gave a small nudge to partially awaken this person. Small nudges and great stimulation to break this slumber altogether are of the same exact status, because both are arranged specifically for the benefit of the individual self by the Guru who never leaves the side of the sleeping as well as the wide awake. Guru is the mother who arranges partial remembrance of intimate personal relationship. Guru is the talented artist that inspires one to look at the world in another way. Guru is the mentor who shows the dreaded death as a passing and recurring phenomena. Guru is the one inspiring proper and equal behavior toward one another. Guru is the one providing systematic practice to provide scientific spiritual growth. Guru is the unmotivated and selfless servant to all humankind. Guru is the one inviting us to the great feast of actual Life. Guru is the one welcoming us to the Feast. Guru is everyone in attendance at the Feast. Guru is also the one keeping the wonders of the Feast ingrained in the heart until the last biological gasp of air. Different functions? Every one. Sent by God? Every one. Uttama adhikari? Some are, some may not be, but this is the business of them and God, for they all have similar gurus of their own, as described.

 

So, Guru is One God, who expands Himself as He pleases in reciprocation to the four types who surrender to Him. Guru is used to fulfill the needy, satisfy the mental hankerings of the inquisitive and end the misery of the frustrated. These gurus solve the immediate needs and are often soon forgotten after the needs are met. For the wise, however, forgetfulness of the role and function of all gurus never takes place. The wise are also universally accepted as gurus of the highest caliber in their own right and always give full recognition to all who have facilitated such fulfillment. The wisdom itself prevents miscalculation of self-worth, and actual spiritual humility and respect and reverence for all is a natural byproduct of such wisdom.

 

If some glommed onto this "One Guru" article hoping the author would verify the uniqueness of one over another in the interest of fomenting a "personality cult" of exclusion and party spirit blindness, they wound up with a declaration of nothing more or less than a description of acintya bheda bheda tattwa as pertaining to the representative of the will of the Supreme Lord.

 

One Guru - One Love - Deserving praise for the kindness He shows us by expanding Himself as He pleases for our ultimate best interest. In the final cut, God is not the void in a vacuum. Included in the word "God" is His realm, His Names, Fame, and Glory, and His associates fully acting on His Will to rekindle in us realization of spiritual identity in reciprocal loving relationship to the all attractive Personality, Lord Sri Krsna.

 

All glories to Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga. This is not a solidarity slogan of party affiliation; it is a synonym of Sri Nitai and Sri Gauranga, the oneness of Guru and the Supreme Lord. I offer my humble obesancies, for Sri Gurudeva is way over the wall. Yet he leaves a thin string as strong as iron. This wall I am up against is very high, and I am thinking of climbing it at every moment. He is called guru for this string lifeline he leaves, but more of a guru for what else he has left me with. He allows me to pace this wall in contemplation by his very teachings and especially his uncommon patience. For unknown reasons, I cannot go back the path in which I came or the many other paths to the same wall others have used. If all I ever see is this wall and the ironlike lifeline, my life is perfect, for the top of that wall is my vyasasana facing south, and this is where I leave my string for others to climb with.

 

Hare Krsna, ys in cooperation, mahaksadasa

[cbrahma]

Yes but the diksa-enslavement process is dehumanizing. It cures the disease by eliminating the patient. By which I mean trading misery and suffering for the coma anesthestized state of 'surrender' where all conscious feeling and thought is dismissed as maya and irrelevant. A literal comatose would be preferable.

[mahak]

Enslavement is never the process of a vaisnava guru. If a so-called guru does not recognize that exchange of love between god and man is a freedom of choice (I.e. I freely choose to alter my lifestyle in order to be pleasing to the Supreme Lord), then there is no guru there. Anyone who denies freedom of choice is demoniac in this regard, and does not deliver god, rather delivers the anti-thesis of the Supreme Lord.

 

You are rather new here, and should recognize that most folks who write here are NOT proponants of a particular religious ideology. It is fine to critique writings that appear here, but try to know where the author is coming from before you try to draw conclusions based on a bias you may have for someone who may have caused a negative experiance.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[cbrahma]

I don't what religious process you're affiliated with but diksa is diksa. Love is not ownership. The absolute demand for obedience is slavery, ownership, not love and certainly not freedom.

 

 

Enslavement is never the process of a vaisnava guru. If a so-called guru does not recognize that exchange of love between god and man is a freedom of choice (I.e. I freely choose to alter my lifestyle in order to be pleasing to the Supreme Lord), then there is no guru there. Anyone who denies freedom of choice is demoniac in this regard, and does not deliver god, rather delivers the anti-thesis of the Supreme Lord.

 

You are rather new here, and should recognize that most folks who write here are NOT proponants of a particular religious ideology. It is fine to critique writings that appear here, but try to know where the author is coming from before you try to draw conclusions based on a bias you may have for someone who may have caused a negative experiance.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[mahak]

You have no idea of what you are talking about. Maybe you should just go back to more familiar environs. Im sure they will love to hear your thesis on "diksa", but you sound like a real idiot here among those who actually have a grasp on the initiation process.

[Guruvani]

 

I don't what religious process you're affiliated with but diksa is diksa. Love is not ownership. The absolute demand for obedience is slavery, ownership, not love and certainly not freedom.

 

Slavery is inevitable.

Either we can be slaves of the Devotee or slaves of our senses or slaves of dogma and doctrine.

 

It is the consititutional position of the jiva to be slave.

If we refuse to be slaves of Krishna and his pure devotees, then we will be slaves of something else.

 

The real question is who or what do you want to be a slave of, because slavery to something or other is inevitable for a jivatma.

[cbrahma]

Cool. Then my hands are tied, along with my tongue. Can't duh ...uh..choose to get initiated..duh...

Tell it to a black person who had slave ancestors. There is a qualitative difference between living in a democracy and a despotism. Slavery is not philosophical. It is a painfully concrete state.

 

 

Slavery is inevitable.

Either we can be slaves of the Devotee or slaves of our senses or slaves of dogma and doctrine.

 

It is the consititutional position of the jiva to be slave.

If we refuse to be slaves of Krishna and his pure devotees, then we will be slaves of something else.

 

The real question is who or what do you want to be a slave of, because slavery to something or other is inevitable for a jivatma.

[Guruvani]

 

Cool. Then my hands are tied, along with my tongue. Can't duh ...uh..choose to get initiated..duh...

Tell it to a black person who had slave ancestors. There is a qualitative difference between living in a democracy and a despotism. Slavery is not philosophical. It is a painfully concrete state.

Well, I got initiated in ISKCON during the time of Srila Prabhupada and it was a known fact that I was independent and moved around from one temple to the next as I desired.

I was never the slave of the GCB or anything else.

 

Still, they gave me intiation becaue they said I was sincere.

 

Your propaganda that initiation is slavery is just patently false.

 

Ain't no guru that I have ever heard of that demands slavery from his disciple, as that goes against the principle of love.

 

Your complaint that initiation is slavery is just plain false allegations.

 

I have never seen any guru, real or bogus that demanded slavery, so you should taked your crock of false allegations elsewhere.

[cbrahma]

I am not organizing a propoganda. I am posting to a blog. Institutions organize propaganda. Institutions that need to increase their ranks by demanding diksa subjugation as a condition for God's love.

Your physical mobility is hardly the point. Potentially a diksa guru is supposed to be able to make any demands and the disciple is supposed to jump. Say a nice young boy is a disciple of a homosexual guru. That guru can demand sexual favors and the boy will believe he has to comply. Or in another instance somebody with a lot of money will believe he has to hand it all over to the 'loving' guru.

This kind of control is a cruel reality. Not proganda.

 

 

Well, I got initiated in ISKCON during the time of Srila Prabhupada and it was a known fact that I was independent and moved around from one temple to the next as I desired.

I was never the slave of the GCB or anything else.

 

Still, they gave me intiation becaue they said I was sincere.

 

Your propaganda that initiation is slavery is just patently false.

 

Ain't no guru that I have ever heard of that demands slavery from his disciple, as that goes against the principle of love.

 

Your complaint that initiation is slavery is just plain false allegations.

 

I have never seen any guru, real or bogus that demanded slavery, so you should taked your crock of false allegations elsewhere.

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

guru can demand sexual favors and the boy will believe he has to comply.

 

Only if both parties are insincere can that happen - such a move by a guru is grounds to disassociate with such a guru - any sincere student would know that a guru cannot ask one to compromise the principles - especially in such a request of such 'service' - if a seeker falls for that line with some bogus guru - then - he [or she] is as much a cheater as the unqualified guru.

[cbrahma]

bottom line - where I stand is nobody should be alllowed have that kind of power of anybody else.

 

 

Only if both parties are insincere can that happen - such a move by a guru is grounds to disassociate with such a guru - any sincere student would know that a guru cannot ask one to compromise the principles - especially in such a request of such 'service' - if a seeker falls for that line with some bogus guru - then - he [or she] is as much a cheater as the unqualified guru.

[Sridas]

 

Cool. Then my hands are tied, along with my tongue. Can't duh ...uh..choose to get initiated..duh...

Tell it to a black person who had slave ancestors. There is a qualitative difference between living in a democracy and a despotism. Slavery is not philosophical. It is a painfully concrete state.

 

You have to understand cbrahma who you are a slave too. Of course the black mans slavery to a despotic white exploitative master is dispicable. But when we are slaves to a compassionate well wishing master that has our very best wellfare at heart, then we can only gain and feel quite at home under the wing of such an affectionate friend and guardian. And you will find they don't ever see themselves as master rather just the opposite.

 

A real spiritual master doesn't need a thing from you they are self satisfied the only reason they are offering you diksa is so that you can better focus on Gods Name, Form and pastimes and discover your real happiness derived from that. They don't need your energy or your laborious service, but you need to give it, so that you don't become a self egocentric miser, instead of a God-centric servitor and they just help you in that process, you can take it or leave it at any time you choose the choice is always yours. No chains on your feet, just a set of beads on your neck to remind you of your real identity as loving servant of the servant of a very beautiful God.

We don't lose anything by divine slavery, we gain everything.

[Guest guest]

Moscow, July 30, 2000

Srila Narayana Maharaja:

“There is one other thing I want to also clarify for you. A sad-guru never thinks of his disciples as his property. You are not my property. If you take initiation from me, you do not become my property; you are the property of Krishna. I may help you to clear (the land of your heart), to make a more smooth seed, and to ultimately offer you to the lotus feet of Krishna. I never think - no bona fide guru ever thinks - that his disciples are his property. He thinks that they are the property of Krishna.”

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

bottom line - where I stand is nobody should be alllowed have that kind of power of anybody else.

 

The vedic texts - when properly advanced - agree with you on this point...we must understand that a guru is a teacher and - that is all.

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

You have to understand cbrahma who you are a slave too. Of course the black mans slavery to a despotic white exploitative master is dispicable. But when we are slaves to a compassionate well wishing master that has our very best wellfare at heart, then we can only gain and feel quite at home under the wing of such an affectionate friend and guardian. And you will find they don't ever see themselves as master rather just the opposite.

 

A real spiritual master doesn't need a thing from you they are self satisfied the only reason they are offering you diksa is so that you can better focus on Gods Name, Form and pastimes and discover your real happiness derived from that. They don't need your energy or your laborious service, but you need to give it, so that you don't become a self egocentric miser, instead of a God-centric servitor and they just help you in that process, you can take it or leave it at any time you choose the choice is always yours. No chains on your feet, just a set of beads on your neck to remind you of your real identity as loving servant of the servant of a very beautiful God.

We don't lose anything by divine slavery, we gain everything.

 

The issue for so many is that these gurus are not qualified - they try to pass as pure devotees and they are conditioned - just like those who have taken shelter of them. Prabhupada was a Pure devotee and - he didn't become a guru until he was a senior citizen.

 

...a disciple who strongly executes devotional service like Dhruva Maharaja can be carried by the disciple even though the instructor is not as advanced... [sB 4.12.33, Purport]

 

...So anyone of you, you can become guru. It is not that I am an extraordinary man, an extraordinary god coming from some mysterious place. It is not that—it is very simple thing.... [Lecture, August 19, 1976]

 

...So whatever limited circle, you just become guru and deliver them. Deliver means deliver from the ignorance...Don’t make addition, alteration. Then you become guru. Very simple thing. If I say that “My father said, ‘This is a bell,’ ” I am correct because I have learned it from my father, authority. I may be fool, rascal. It doesn’t matter. But because I have learned it from the authority and presenting it that “This is a bell,” this is perfect. Similarly, I cannot become guru because I am imperfect. My senses are imperfect. I cannot see even what is beyond this wall, although I am very much proud of my eyes. I want to see. What you can see? Imperfect, all senses. But if some authority says that “Beyond this wall this is the..., like this,” it is all right. So we have to follow this path, that you become guru, deliver your neighborhood men, associates, but speak the authoritative words of Krsna. Then it will act... [Conversations, May 1977]

 

How many gurus have fallen in ISKCON and even outside ISKCON? How many started out 'very nice' and then - after taking so many worldly minded disciples - became polluted as a result?

 

I think that people should forget about initiations and just spend time in study and worship - gurus are teachers - this can be serviced through the senior devotees helping the new devotees to learn - really - temples have to become learning institutions - not hotels nor ritual centers.

 

Sure - there are good gurus out there - i even know some [like the one murdered on Janmashtami in Manipur ] - but - we need them to focus on teaching in a broad sense - not that they are teaching only their own students and that's it [of course this goes on].

 

I have not taken initiation and i won't be taking initiation - everything that I'm supposed to learn from a guru - can be learned from Prabhupada's teachings - that is why he went to such efforts to produce the books and give the lectures - not that it was only for those devotees who were at that time his students - his intent is that we are all his students - that his presence shall be seen in his books - that his books would even become law books!

 

Srila Prabhupada is the teacher and - we can get the vedabase and search and learn faster and better than on a 1 on 1 - with some guy [who may or may not be qualified] - and - who may or may not be learned himself...at least Prabhupada's books presents us with the standards by which we can judge all these things.

 

"...So whatever limited circle, you just become guru and deliver them. Deliver means deliver from the ignorance..."

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

bottom line - where I stand is nobody should be alllowed have that kind of power of anybody else.

Who is the immediate authority in the christian traditions?

 

When people go to churches - how do they look upon the pastors?

 

What standards are expected for the pastor? What standards do pastors expect from their congregations?

 

If we are our own 'authority' - we may begin to take things too cheaply - thus - there is no question of authorities.

 

In churches everywhere people are advanced on their path because they accept the authorities - if the authorities are bonafide - then people learn and grow - if they are not - then they become further lost.

 

This is the case for all faith groups!

 

It is up to the followers - in any group - to understand - from scriptures [*and to a lesser degree - depending on 'where' in the world we live - community standards] what sort of interactions we aught to have with these authorities - what level of authority we shall give them over our thinking process etc., we must not follow blindly.

 

Like when we are in primary school [and our engagement choices were made for us by others] - when we were eight years old and stuck in some classroom - we may have felt subjugated and enslaved - by being forced to stay there and - the fact that the teacher made us stay - didn't make her a slave owner - perspective is the key.

 

Later - as adults - we give others authority over us - such as employers and pastors and gurus etc., - so - it's really a matter of informed perspective.

 

*Such as in places like Iran - where there are no 'real' community standards [due in part to a lack of intellectual diversity and - the state enforced religious and political ideologies] - due to the fact that too many of the authorities and leaders there are become so bogus - so - sincere peoples - in places like that cannot use the CS measure - in the manner which we are able to here in the west.

[cbrahma]

I got this response from a related site

 

 

I heard that in Sri Sri Ravishankar's AOL sessions, shedding the ego is one of the first teachings, where a member is asked to do things in full view of the other members. The things include crawling, barking like dog, dancing, singing, etc.--generally chores that would lesson the personal ego.

 

 

This description is really frightening. In the seventies and eighties there were a number of cults that used 'loss of ego' to justify all sorts of abusive excesses. EST is one classic case.

I can't imagine all the destructive practices that can be justified under the 'loss of ego' pretext.

Ego is such an abstract concept, hard to pin down. The only truly ego-less people I've met were mentally ill.

It's so convenient. A guru could commit all sorts of artrocities on a disciple like rape and justify it as an excercise for losing ego.

How horrifying. A religion in which a loving God is nominal.

 

 

 

 

The vedic texts - when properly advanced - agree with you on this point...we must understand that a guru is a teacher and - that is all.

[cbrahma]

I have studied the G Vaisnava religion for years. Read Caitanya Caritamrta, read the first two Cantos of the Srimad Bhagavatam. Listened to numerous lectures, (some by Prabuhpada) and have talked one on one with initiated disciples.

These are my sources. Diksa is a process that binds you to another person for eternity. Whatever the diksa guru demands you must do.

There is nothing esoteric about this. What better definition for such a relationship but slavery.

 

Now if I don't know something, if I am such an idiot, the appropriate response from a vaisnava is to instruct, not to resort to name-calling.

Any idiot can do that.

 

 

 

You have no idea of what you are talking about. Maybe you should just go back to more familiar environs. Im sure they will love to hear your thesis on "diksa", but you sound like a real idiot here among those who actually have a grasp on the initiation process.

[cbrahma]

 

Surrender to authority is an integral part of the psychology of authoritarian hierarchy. Hierarchies of power, especially those that purport to be spiritual, are based on a hierarchy of value where the leader is considered better, purer, or essentially different. Next comes the heir-apparent or inner circle. This creates separation between those at different levels, and also between the group as a whole and those outside the hierarchy. Surrendering to a guru thus involves surrendering to a hierarchical mode of relating that has within it dominance and submission.

People are especially vulnerable to charismatic leaders during times of crisis or major life change. Most often those who enter into this kind of authoritarian group are having problems bringing meaning, human connection, and good feelings into their lives, all of which become instantly available upon joining. What they also gain is a sense of power, usually greater than any they previously had. Although seemingly relinquishing their power, they actually trade what little personal power they had to piggyback on the guru's power. Occasionally people who did have power elsewhere forsake their old lives to become disciples, largely because their previous successes were unsatisfying, Interestingly, these people usually end up in the guru's inner circle. The higher up one is in the organization, the more one's power and even livelihood are hooked into it and the guru. This makes it very difficult not to accept, rationalize, or deny any incongruent, greedy, or corrupt behavior on the part of the guru or the organization as a whole.

 

The Guru Papers

 

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Guest guest]

 

Srila Prabhupada is the teacher and - we can get the vedabase and search and learn faster and better than on a 1 on 1 - with some guy [who may or may not be qualified] - and - who may or may not be learned himself...at least Prabhupada's books presents us with the standards by which we can judge all these things.

"

Once in 1993 some of the Srila Prabhupada and Srila Sridhar Maharaja disciples asked Srila Govinda Maharaja how they could assist him in his mission. He thought for a moment and then told, "actually a disciple must live with the guru for a least 7 years otherwise he will not be properly trained up, but what to do? These are moderns times and we have an international mission. Actually the best thing that you can do is to act as a siksa guru for my disciples."

If you go to India you will find this system of the disciples living with their guru and very senior devotees still going on for the most part. How else will you learn how an experience and advanced Vaisnava feels, thinks and acts in specific situations like the kind you will face in your practical devotional life? Yes, the precepts are now codified in books, but you need personal association to learn the Vaisnava sadacara or behaviour of Vaisnavas.

And Sri Guru may be a teacher but he is not, "just a teacher". This is an interesting passage from "Sri Guru and His Grace" by Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar-deva Gsovami Maharaja:

Srila Raghunatha Dasa Goswami prays, "I only aspire after one thing. I cherish the hope that one day I may be welcomed into the plane where Radhika and Madhava are in their glory, sitting and playing." That should be our prospect. This is found in Raghunatha Dasa Goswami's prayer to his guru. He says:

 

nama-srestham manum api saci-putram atra svarupam

rupam tasyagrajam uru-purim mathurim gostavatim

radha-kundam giri-varam aho radhika-madhavasam

prapto yasya prathita-krpaya sri gurum tam nato 'smi

 

"I am fully indebted to sri gurudeva. Why? He has given me so many things. He has given me the highest conception of the holy name of Krsna, the highest form of sound which contains the highest form of thought, aspiration, ideal, everything. And next he has given me the mantra. " The name is there within the mantra. Without the name, the mantra is nothing. If the name of Krsna is withdrawn and replaced with another name, the mantra will give the opposite result. The name of Krsna is all in all. And within the mantra, the name is couched in a particular way as a sort of prayer.

 

And then he says, "He has given me the service of that great saviour, the son of Mother Saci, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, who is like a golden mountain standing to show the direction of krsna-lila. And gurudeva has brought me to the lotus feet of Mahaprabhu's most favorite personal assistant, Svarupa Damodara, who is the representation of Lalita devi, the most favorite friend of Radhika .

 

"Then he has brought me in connection with Sri Rupa, who was ordered to distribute the highest kinds of devotional love, rasa. " Vaidhi bhakti, the worship of the Lord in awe and reverence, is of a lower order. But raganuga-bhakti, spontaneous love, the hearts innermost dealings, was distributed through Srila Rupa Goswami. Mahaprabhu considered Sri Rupa the best to deal with raganuga-bhakti.

 

Dasa Goswami says, "Then, by his grace, I have achieved the association of Srila Sanatana Goswami, who adjusts our position in relation to raganuga-bhakti.

 

He explains the path of vaidhi-bhakti, and gives us sambandha-jnana : the knowledge of what is what, a proper acquaintance with the environment." Then he says, "Gurudeva has given me Mathura Mandala, where Radha and Govinda have their pastimes; where the forest, the hills, every creeper, shrub, and grain of sand, everyone is bearing the acquaintance of Radha-Krsna lila, and wherever I shall cast my glance they will help me in my remembrance of Radha and Govinda. I have received all these things from my gurudeva : Vrndavana, where the cows and the milkmen have their village constructed. I am becoming acquainted with their association, their nature, and their feelings of love for Krsna.

 

"By the grace of gurudeva, I have become acquainted with Radha-kunda, the favorite place of Radha and Govinda for their pastimes, and this great Govardhana. And lastly he has given me the hope that one day I can get the service of Sri Sri Radhika and Madhava. I have been given all these assurances by my gurudeva, so I bow my head with all my respects to his lotus feet."

 

So, if we are conscious of all these spiritual matters, then we can think that we have approached our gurudeva properly. What is our guru? What is his mission? It is filled with all these things. Devoid of that, what is our interest?

[cbrahma]

not the vapu vani thing again. Yawn. I thought Prabhupada laid that one to rest a long time ago.

 

 

EK 4

There are two conceptions of presence--the physical conception and the vibrational conception. The physical conception is temporary, whereas the vibrational conception is eternal. When we enjoy or relish the vibration of Krsna's teachings in Bhagavad-gita, or when we chant Hare Krsna, we should know that by those vibrations He is immediately present. He is absolute, and because of this His vibration is just as important as His physical presence. WHEN WE FEEL SEPARATION FROM KRSNA OR THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, WE SHOULD JUST TRY TO REMEMBER THEIR WORDS OF INSTRUCTIONS, AND WE WILL NO LONGER FEEL THAT SEPARATION. SUCH ASSOCIATION WITH KRSNA AND THE SPIRITUAL MASTER SHOULD BE ASSOCIATION BY VIBRATION, NOT PHYSICAL PRESENCE. THAT IS REAL ASSOCIATION. We put so much stress on seeing, but when Krsna was present on this earth, so many people saw Him and did not realize that He is God; so what is the advantage of seeing? By seeing Krsna, we will not understand Him, but by listening carefully to His teachings, we can come to the platform of understanding. We can touch Krsna immediately by sound vibration; therefore we should give more stress to the sound vibration of Krsna and of the spiritual master--then we'll feel happy and won't feel separation.

 

[mahak]

cbrahma insists on the slavery point. Normally, Id feel quite concerned that unfortunate experiances have led to his views, experiances that are predictable because of this age. Cheaters abound.

 

However, Im not so concerned with his feelings or beliefs, because they are tainted with the actual reason he has come to these forums. His motives are clear, he is acting on true missionary concerns, that which makes him bring about his point that entirely everyone who uses these pages are in need of his liberating services. He has come to save us from slavery.

 

He rants and raves about homo gurus and slavemaster gurus, but there is no such thing. There are pedophiles and criminals, but those who have any sense at all can recognize non-vaisnava character, and do not go near such people (animals).

 

Actually, Srila Prabhupada told it to me, personally, that the devotee owns only three things, Krsna, Japa beads, and the Spiritual Master. In other words, cbrahma has it backwards, the diksa guru agrees to be the slave of his disciple, fulfilling every desire of the disciple. The archives of letters, teachings, books, tape ministries, all confirm that Srila Prabhupada is the servant of the servant, that he serves even his disciples. Perhaps this service attitude, when judged by mundane historians, can be viewed as a fault with Srila Prabhupada, that he provided service to some very unqualified persons, giving them everything, as he has confirmed in a stateme3nt made just 35 days before he ledft this world. In this statement of October 5, 1977, he tells his disciples that he has gioven them everything they have desired, but now they must protect the gift, or spoil it forever.

 

No, cbrashma, the resident servant and slave of the deprogrammers and christian superiority nazis who say all that Iraq needs is Jesus, is not speaking from actual knowledge of the wonders of diksa. Sri Narayana Maharaja has clearly stated fact, that the spiritual master owns nothing but Krsna, and his relationship with his disciples is rather unique in that he agrees to become their servants as well.

 

Haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

[cbrahma]

 

However, Im not so concerned with his feelings or beliefs, because they are tainted with the actual reason he has come to these forums. His motives are clear, he is acting on true missionary concerns, that which makes him bring about his point that entirely everyone who uses these pages are in need of his liberating services. He has come to save us from slavery.

 

 

What a convenient presumption for dismissing anything you don't want to and can't addess.

Nor do I care about your cyber-psychology in discerning my motives over HTTP. You are a desperate soul indeed. Such strategy is intellectual and philosophical bankruptcy.

I came into this forum because I had a new interest in chanting. That interest of course has been completely preempted by the attitudes I've encountered by so-called vaisnavas on this site.

[Guest guest]

 

"Actually the best thing that you can do is to act as a siksa guru for my disciples."

If you go to India you will find this system of the disciples living with their guru and very senior devotees

That why I put "very senior devotees". And if you look to first sentence and extrapolate what Srila Govinda Maharaja said then you will understand that in the physical absence of guru the "very senior devotees" will act as siksa gurus. This will especially be the case in an "international mission" of our modern times. In this case the disciples will generally serve in separation and associate with Sri Guru's sound vibration through his books and recordings. And of course this can also continue after the guru leaves this world. So its not all black and white. But still the disciple will have to watch and listen to the behaviour of advanced devotees to know how to act under specific situations. The process is not just to sit at the computer all day and quote sastric evidence that we read in the books.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

I came into this forum because I had a new interest in chanting. That interest of course has been completely preempted by the attitudes I've encountered by so-called vaisnavas on this site.

All pre-religious systems such as modern psychology and Zen etc. as well as all true religious systems teach us not to blame anyone but ourselves for the predicament in which we find ourselves. As aspiring followers of Gaudiya Vaisnavism we accept that our predicament is that we are adverse to the service of Sri Krsna from time immemorial. In our practical lives it often manifests as a lack of interest in chanting Krsna Nama. So it is impossible to blame others for our lack of attraction to Krsna Nama, and in fact, impossible that others are responsible for our fallen condition. cbrahma in many posts whines and blames others for his own personal predicament. Of course cbrahma while certainly a classic self-deceiver seems also to have have hidden motives. Whether these motives are consciously known to him, only he and the Lord knows.