vaisnava guru

[cbrahma]

Ah yes offenses. The 4th principle in action.

To which truth, logic provability must take second place.

How admirably effective this system is.

 

 

rotfl

 

anything else just aids you in perpetrating more offenses. I choose not to go that route.

 

admin, are you on vacation or something?

[Guest guest]

 

The scholars, elders and priests were questioning Lord Jesus Christ thus: "Who gives You the power to do these things?" He responded, "I will answer on the condition you answer whether the baptism of John is heaven-sent or of human origin?"

 

The church leaders conferred among themselves, deciding both possible answers threatened their positions. Heaven-sent meant they denied the Will of the Supreme, human origin meant that they were to be attacked by the people, so they diplomatically answered, "We cannot tell."

Lord Jesus Christ then said, "Then I won't tell you either."

 

mahaksadasa Comment: The lesson here is that authority of Gurudeva is never discussed among the faithless.

 

Sounds strange. People who ask legitimate questions should be given logical answers. Playing cat and mouse games and avoiding the question is not a good sign.

 

The faithful do not need any discussion on the authority of the gurudeva. And if the faithless should not discuss this topic, then this topic is not open for discussion for anyone.

[cbrahma]

Yes Jesus is the Master. Jesus is also divine.

 

 

Sounds strange. People who ask legitimate questions should be given logical answers. Playing cat and mouse games and avoiding the question is not a good sign.

 

The faithful do not need any discussion on the authority of the gurudeva. And if the faithless should not discuss this topic, then this topic is not open for discussion for anyone.

[cbrahma]

This is not an installment of the "Evil Christians vs the Sainly Vaisnava" graphic novel. I am discussing principle against principle not stereotypes.

 

 

As a "Christian" you certainly didn't come here to learn.

You came here to find faults and criticise the Vaishnava ways.

 

As a Christian, you came here thinking you already have all the answers and wanted to show all the flaws and defects in the Vaishnava path.

 

I don't think you converted anybody, so now you can back back to Church and smell the moth balls and flatulence in the pews as the congregation has trouble digesting the dead animal caracasses they gorged on before coming to church.

[Admin5]

Moderator's note:

We have merged two threads ( vaisnava guru and what i've learned) as one seems to be a continuation of the other.

Most likely everyone has made any points they were going to make by now. At the end of this day we will close this thread. It is being left open so that anyone who wants to make any new points or summarize their points can do so. Please try to express your views without insulting others.

[cbrahma]

This is a good one. It is like the compassionate dictator. The Inquisitors claimed to be torturing people for the 'good of their soul'. I always worry when people claim to be controlling me 'for my own good'. It turns out no good ever comes of it.

 

 

But when we are slaves to a compassionate well wishing master that has our very best wellfare at heart

,

[Hari Bhakta dasa]

 

Moderator's note:

We have merged two threads ( vaisnasa guru and what i've learned) as one seems to be a continuation of the other.

Most likely everyone has made any points they were going to make by now. At the end of this day we will close this thread. It is being left open so that anyone who wants to make any new points or summarize their points can do so. Please try to express your views without insulting others.

 

i hope the end of your day is sooner than here. IMHO it should be shut down many posts ago.

[cbrahma]

At this point I agree, since most of the bloggers engaged in the 'discussion' seem only to be capable of responding by flaming.

 

 

i hope the end of your day is sooner than here. IMHO it should be shut down many posts ago.

[cbrahma]

I Googled for slave of guru and got returned to this site with the following quote from the

<TABLE class=tborder cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt1 width="100%"><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=bottom><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD width="100%">Audarya Fellowship <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: navbar_link -->> Email Discussion Lists <!-- END TEMPLATE: navbar_link --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: navbar_link -->> Shakti Sadhana <!-- END TEMPLATE: navbar_link -->> <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: navbar_link -->Fwd: Re: Need of a Guru, diksha and rosary for mantra japa <!-- END TEMPLATE: navbar_link --></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

 

Lastly, I wish to qoute the great Kannada saint-poet-musician Shree

PurandharadhAsa :

 

"guruvina gulAmanAguva thanaka dhoreyadaNNa mukuthi"

 

[it is impossible to attain mukthi (salvation or emancipation) until

one becomes a slave of the Guru (without the divine grace of the

Guru)]

 

A man might be well-versed in different scriptures. He might have

renounced the world and might have crucified his flesh, but Truth is

revealed only to him who has become the slave of the Sadguru.

 

My whole life is not just sufficient to explain the glory of the

Sadguru.

 

[Guest guest]

Can you actually state your goal in posting on this forum? You say you want to chant but have been discouraged in that desire by the posts of devotees. You say you want to understand diksha, but all you do is fixate on your pre-conceived idea which is incorrect and keep trying to defeat a principle which has nothing to do with genuine diksha.

 

It is quite clear that you feel all humans are flawed and incapable of rising above false ego and the dictates of the mind and senses.

 

You have read some books that are central to Gaudiya Vaishnavas. Have you read the Upadesamrta by Rupa Goswami? The first verse says:

 

One who has controlled his/her tongue, belly and genitals and the urge to speak is qualified to make disciples all over the world.

 

What does that mean? It means that a person who has genuinely gone beyond the dictates of the mind and senses and is living in the land of divine service to Krsna can help others to attain to such a state - he/she can share their heart and experience with others.

 

You have a very poor understanding of Gaudiya Vaishnavism for someone who has read as much and been to 'many lectures'. Sri Guru is not independent of sastra or it's conclusions, nor is he/she free from the peer review of other sadhus. Sri Guru serves one function only - to serve Sri Radha Krsna and help others to imbibe a serving attitude - that's it. Nothing nefarious or unbecoming about it - it is in fact the most noble and dignified life.

 

Sri Guru will never make demands or treat his/her sisyas like slaves as you have repeatedly stated. Sri Guru will show by his/her personal example how to live a progressive life meant to dissolve the material ego and uncover the treasure of divine love which is barried in every persons heart.

 

At any rate it certainly does not appear that you have come to this forum to learn anything. All you have done so far is denigrate vaishnavas and vaishnava scriptures (although admittedly you have misrepresented the scriptures so what you are speaking out against isn't really our scriptures anyway, rather it is your own misunderstanding).

 

I would suggest that you read Sikshastakam - these are eight prayers attributed to Sriman Mahaprabhu glorifying Hari Nama Prabhu. I already answered your accusatory statements regarding what you termed the 'lie' about there being no hard and fast rules. Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and all his genuine followers all teach this essential doctrine. Anyone can chant Hari Nama. There is no requirement for diksha, no restrictions in terms of time, place or circumstance.

 

Sincere chanting will remove the dust covering your heart and the misconceptions you have - gradually. In the third verse of Siksastakam Sriman Mahaprabhu has said that 'one should chant the Holy Names in a humble state of mind, being more tolerant than a tree and humbler than a blade of grass. One should offer all respect to others and expect none in return and in this way one will be able to chant constantly.

[cbrahma]

You have not declared your login as I have. You can see all my posts simply by clicking on my login link. Go to the very first post and you will find my initial motive. My idea BTW is not pre-conceived as I have found proof of it on this very site as you may read in the previous posts.

<TABLE class=tborder cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt1 width="100%"><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=bottom><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD width="100%">Audarya Fellowship <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: navbar_link -->> Email Discussion Lists <!-- END TEMPLATE: navbar_link --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: navbar_link -->> Shakti Sadhana <!-- END TEMPLATE: navbar_link -->> <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: navbar_link -->Fwd: Re: Need of a Guru, diksha and rosary for mantra japa <!-- END TEMPLATE: navbar_link --></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

 

 

Can you actually state your goal in posting on this forum? .

[mahak]

Haribol. I agree with all your decisions, and I humbly apologize for my terrible post last week that you so kindly deleted. My attempt at humor was very ill-conceived.

 

However, I did not intend for my post that begins this topic to be so disruptive, and the content of this post has many things that the vaisnava community can find greatly comforting. Especially the gist of the article which states our responsibilities toward all those who were kind enough to give the nectar of instruction, that we should in turn, take to the distributing of the same as we have received.

 

Someone comes to disrupt, and many thoughtful posts are eliminated. The whole idea of slavery is very off-topic, and this shows a complete lack of concern for proper ettiquette. The "flaming" that has occurred is because someone has incited such responses, blinded by party spirit, the great curse against those seeking absolute truth.

 

So, by all means, delete this entire thread. In fact, maybe it can be done from here, maybe we will start all over.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

Diksa is a process that binds you to another person for eternity. Whatever the diksa guru demands you must do.

There is nothing esoteric about this. What better definition for such a relationship but slavery.

 

That is bogus - please do yourself a favor and download the free Vedabase and study that:

 

http://www.winsite.com/bin/Info?26500000037010

 

This is an old version - but - it has everything Prabhupada gave us and it's not too hard to use - with this and use of the search engine - you can see what is what and see that the above concept isn't what were taught by Prabhupada. It sounds like you've some cheaters in your midst....

[cbrahma]

I've studied hard copies of the Srimad Bhagavatam. The absolute obedience of the disciple is NOT bogus. I even produced a link from this very site to prove it.

<TABLE class=tborder cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt1 width="100%"><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=bottom><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD width="100%">Audarya Fellowship <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: navbar_link -->> Email Discussion Lists <!-- END TEMPLATE: navbar_link --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: navbar_link -->> Shakti Sadhana <!-- END TEMPLATE: navbar_link -->> <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: navbar_link -->Fwd: Re: Need of a Guru, diksha and rosary for mantra japa</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

 

That is bogus - please do yourself a favor and download the free Vedabase and study that:

 

http://www.winsite.com/bin/Info?26500000037010

 

This is an old version - but - it has everything Prabhupada gave us and it's not too hard to use - with this and use of the search engine - you can see what is what and see that the above concept isn't what were taught by Prabhupada. It sounds like you've some cheaters in your midst....

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

I got this response from a related site

 

 

 

This description is really frightening. In the seventies and eighties there were a number of cults that used 'loss of ego' to justify all sorts of abusive excesses. EST is one classic case.

I can't imagine all the destructive practices that can be justified under the 'loss of ego' pretext.

Ego is such an abstract concept, hard to pin down. The only truly ego-less people I've met were mentally ill.

It's so convenient. A guru could commit all sorts of artrocities on a disciple like rape and justify it as an excercise for losing ego.

How horrifying. A religion in which a loving God is nominal.

 

Why did you place a quote from me about guru being teacher - with this bunk? I see that you're frustrated but - do know that such a mood in you is playing more defiance than defense...

[cbrahma]

I didn't know who it was from but here is the quote again since it is so relevant to my point.

 

 

I heard that in Sri Sri Ravishankar's AOL sessions, shedding the ego is one of the first teachings, where a member is asked to do things in full view of the other members. The things include crawling, barking like dog, dancing, singing, etc.--generally chores that would lesson the personal ego

 

 

There is no mood but trying to support a point with evidence, a point that keeps getting denied as bogus, bunk...etc as though its just a product of my defiant imagination. There is so much evidence out there.

 

 

 

Why did you place a quote from me about guru being teacher - with this bunk? I see that you're frustrated but - do know that such a mood in you is playing more defiance than defense...

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

I've studied hard copies of the Srimad Bhagavatam. The absolute obedience of the disciple is NOT bogus. I even produced a link from this very site to prove it.

<table class="tborder" align="center" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="1" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td class="alt1" width="100%"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr valign="bottom"><td></td><td></td><td width="100%">Audarya Fellowship <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: navbar_link -->> Email Discussion Lists <!-- END TEMPLATE: navbar_link --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: navbar_link -->> Shakti Sadhana <!-- END TEMPLATE: navbar_link -->> <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: navbar_link -->Fwd: Re: Need of a Guru, diksha and rosary for mantra japa</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table>

 

Is whatever is found on that link from Prabhupada's books? Can you copy-n-paste the part that says one must serve the carnal desires of a so-called guru?

 

In Bhagavad Gita 4.34 God says:

 

Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth.

 

So what sort of service do we think that God is speaking of? Take it from there - if it becomes jaded into something else - we know that it has taken leave of this verse.

 

The idea here is that when we are with this teacher we are going to help him - by way of menial service - usually devotional service if the guru is qualified - that is how we serve the guru - by asking questions and doing nice service - if it is taken that we are to serve the bodily needs of the guru and that is 'service' - then that is cheap:

 

...Because demoniac people want to be cheated, so many cheaters are present to cheat them. At the present moment in this age of Kali-yuga, the entire human society has become an assembly of cheaters and cheated. For this reason the Vedic scriptures have given us the proper directions for sense gratification... [sB 4.26.6, purport]

 

So again it is up to us to know the truth and if some bogus guru or pastor or whatever is cheating us and - if it goes on for some time - one may have to ask if it is that way - due to our being a cheater too.

 

An example:

 

...In some religious sects a sinful man goes to a priest to confess his sinful acts and pay a fine, but then he again commits the same sins and returns to confess them again. This is the practice of a professional sinner... [sB 6.1.9, purport]

 

In another posting i mentioned that in this vedic path there are nine processes for devotional service:

 

'hearing [reading is hearing too], chanting, remembering, serving, worshiping, praying, obeying, maintaining friendship [with God] and surrendering everything'

 

So chanting is only one item - hearing is only one - praying is only one - pick one and - do it with great faith and - you'll see success. These nine methods are 'the way' for any sincere seeker in any faith - it's all a science if you will.

 

So please don't make everything so narrow and blighted.

 

If i may i would like to share [if it's worth anything] that i too have great stress and pain in my life right now - I have endured a state induced abuse - for nearly five years now [don't want to get into what it is right now] - even i have occasion at times to become frustrated and to 'question' - but - that is where our 'real' faith in God comes in - we are not to limit God in our lives - God is God and - He has given us many scriptures - vedic and biblical - for us to learn from and - at times of great stress and questioning - it is having a good and broad scriptural education - which gets me through....

 

As for the point of our false ego being broken - God does that to us through life experiences - not that his servants are to forge some 'program' to do it for Him.

 

I used to say to one devotee that i know that i felt that they didn't see a devotee's surrender as genuine - unless it was induced by a nervous breakdown - like in the dark ages during the inquisition - a confession was not seen as full or even 'sincere' - if not effected with torture.

 

Some so-called servants of God - within all faiths - are infected with this nonsense.

 

We can use our minds and know that this is not the way that it's supposed to be and to make adjustments - for our own spiritual well-being.

 

God Bless you and i know that you shall find your faith footing and - you are correct - you have to find your faith in God and - that it must be independant of - or rather - not dependant on any other person must be realized too. It's just us and God - that's all [the rest must follow from there].

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

I didn't know who it was from but here is the quote again since it is so relevant to my point.

 

 

 

There is no mood but trying to support a point with evidence, a point that keeps getting denied as bogus, bunk...etc as though its just a product of my defiant imagination. There is so much evidence out there.

 

Denied as bogus because it is bogus - as noted before - it's all a matter of informed perspective.

 

Of course - that quote isn't 'relevant' - you don't even know who it is - where it is - so what we know is that there are many such cheaters - that doesn't negate the facts and that is that you and - many many others - have wrong ideas about what is a guru and what our dealings might be with some guru.

 

Please read my last posting to you for a better view of my opinions.

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

If you go to India you will find this system of the disciples living with their guru and very senior devotees still going on for the most part. How else will you learn how an experience and advanced Vaisnava feels, thinks and acts in specific situations like the kind you will face in your practical devotional life? Yes, the precepts are now codified in books, but you need personal association to learn the Vaisnava sadacara or behaviour of Vaisnavas.

 

How many letters and conversations are found in the vedabase?

 

I think that one can surmise what an 'advanced Vaisnava feels, thinks and acts in specific situations like the kind you will face in your practical devotional life' in these - if you cannot - then by all means - go live with some guru and hope that you get the 'real' thing.

 

Just think - many who go to live with these gurus are looking more for some esoterica and not - practical realizations...

[Guest guest]

INITIATION INTO THE SPRIRITUAL LIFE

(by Srimad Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Goswami)

 

The questions that are frequently asked are these: "Why should it be at all necessary to submit to any particular person or to to any particular ceremony for the purpose of realizing the Absolute, Who, by His nature, is unconditioned? Why should Krishna require our formal declaration of submission to Himself?

 

Admitting that it is our duty to serve Krishna, why should we have to be introduced to Him by a third party? Why is it impossible for one to serve Sri Krishna directly?" It would no doubt be highly convenient and helpful to be instructed by a good Preceptor, who is well-versed in the Scriptures, in understanding the same.

 

But one should never submit to another to an extent that may furnish a rascal with an opportunity of really doing harm. The bad preceptor is a familiar character. It is inexplicable how those gurus, who live in open sin, contrive, nevertheless, to retain the unquestioning allegiance of the cultured portion of their disciples.

 

Such being the case, can we blame any person who hesitates to submit unconditionally to a preceptor, whether he is good or bad? It is, of course, necessary to be quite sure of the bona fides of a person before we accept him, even tentatively, as our spiritual guide. A Preceptor should be a person who appears likely to possess those qualities that will enable him to improve our spiritual condition.

 

Those and similar thoughts are likely to occur to most persons who have received an English education, when they are asked to accept the help of any particular person as his spiritual Preceptor. The literature, science, and art of the West body forth the principle of the liberty of the individual and denounce the mentality that leads one to surrender his right of choosing his own course to another, however superior a person. They inculcate the necessity and high value of having faith in oneself.

 

But the submission of the disciple is neither irrational nor blind. It is complete, on condition that the Preceptor himself continues to be altogether good. The disciple retains the right of renouncing his allegiance to the preceptor the moment he is satisfied that the preceptor is a fallible creature like himself.

 

from: therealexplanation.org/article/initiate_life.html

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

INITIATION INTO THE SPRIRITUAL LIFE

(by Srimad Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Goswami)

 

The questions that are frequently asked are these: "Why should it be at all necessary to submit to any particular person or to to any particular ceremony for the purpose of realizing the Absolute, Who, by His nature, is unconditioned? Why should Krishna require our formal declaration of submission to Himself?

 

Admitting that it is our duty to serve Krishna, why should we have to be introduced to Him by a third party? Why is it impossible for one to serve Sri Krishna directly?" It would no doubt be highly convenient and helpful to be instructed by a good Preceptor, who is well-versed in the Scriptures, in understanding the same.

 

But one should never submit to another to an extent that may furnish a rascal with an opportunity of really doing harm. The bad preceptor is a familiar character. It is inexplicable how those gurus, who live in open sin, contrive, nevertheless, to retain the unquestioning allegiance of the cultured portion of their disciples.

 

Such being the case, can we blame any person who hesitates to submit unconditionally to a preceptor, whether he is good or bad? It is, of course, necessary to be quite sure of the bona fides of a person before we accept him, even tentatively, as our spiritual guide. A Preceptor should be a person who appears likely to possess those qualities that will enable him to improve our spiritual condition.

 

Those and similar thoughts are likely to occur to most persons who have received an English education, when they are asked to accept the help of any particular person as his spiritual Preceptor. The literature, science, and art of the West body forth the principle of the liberty of the individual and denounce the mentality that leads one to surrender his right of choosing his own course to another, however superior a person. They inculcate the necessity and high value of having faith in oneself.

 

But the submission of the disciple is neither irrational nor blind. It is complete, on condition that the Preceptor himself continues to be altogether good. The disciple retains the right of renouncing his allegiance to the preceptor the moment he is satisfied that the preceptor is a fallible creature like himself.

 

from: therealexplanation.org/article/initiate_life.html

 

With Prabhupada's vani - we get everything we need - most of which is common sense no matter our faith leanings.

 

Of course we need a teacher - that is never the question here - it is a question of who and what.

 

You're posting this quote from Srila Prabhupada's guru or teacher and it is good for this discussion. However - i feel that despite the point that we need advanced devotees to associate with - most people are going to learn more from Prabhupada's vani - in a shorter time - than shall in the 'traditional' guru arrangement.

 

Of course even these days - people take initiation and have a guru but - hardly ever see this guru - they may get an hour a year out of their guru - so where and from whom do they learn during the guru's away time?

 

Prabhupada is our best connection for answers. We have to accept that he is the most qualified of gurus for the modern age - with extensive writings etc., to deliver us from ignorance.