Definition of Ishwara in Advaita Vedanta

[Guest guest]

Dear Advaitins,

 

Namaste,

 

There had been many discussions in this forum on the above topic.

The topic seems to be very abstruse. In advaita vedanta it is said

that liberation in the truest sense of the term consists in

transcending the triad of jiva, ishwara and jagat and in the same

breath it is said that mukti is possible only by the grace of god

which makes very difficult to define the role of ishwara and his

grace.

 

It is very interesting to see that in most rational schools of

indian philosophy like yoga and vedanta ishwara and grace has a

place. One of the most practical and scientific system ashtangayoga

of patanjali says that samadhi or spiritual illumination can be

attained either by the practice of ashtanga yoga or by the grace of

the ishwara. (Ishwara pranidanad va)

 

To come to the point in the Advaita vedanta Ishwara is defined as

Consciousness asscociated with Maya or Primordial ignoracne. Jiva

too is the 'part' of maya. It is said that Jiva is limited, ignorant

and bound. But ishwara is said to be the ruler of maya omnipotent

omniscient and endowded with all the virtues.

 

It means to say that

total maya+ asscociated consciousness=all powerful lord

jiva(part of maya and hence all jivas put together should be equal

to maya)+associated consciousness=Bound Ignorant Jiva.

 

Suppose there are 10 ignorant people in the room and individually we

are calling them ignorant and if we say that consciousness

asscoiated with all of them is ishwara then ishwara becomes nothing

but the consciousness associated with 10 ignorant people and hence

should be atleast as ignorant as any of the 10 individials if not

more!

 

How can we accept this?

 

Recently i was listening to the talk by Sw. Paramarthanandaji on

Tattwabodha and he said that Jiva is consciousness associated with

ashuddha sattva or avidya and the ishwara is shuddha sattwa pradhana

or maya in its purest form. This seems to be somewhat satisfactory

explanation. But still i am not fully conviced.

 

Can any of the members show references to the above mentioned points

in upnishads and the brahmasutra commentery by Adi Shankara? and

make my understanding better in this matter?

 

Yours in Sri Ramakrishna,

 

Br. Vinayaka

[Guest guest]

Vinayaka <vinayaka_ns > wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

It means to say that

total maya+ asscociated consciousness=all powerful lord

jiva(part of maya and hence all jivas put together should be equal

to maya)+associated consciousness=Bound Ignorant Jiva.

 

Suppose there are 10 ignorant people in the room and individually we

are calling them ignorant and if we say that consciousness

asscoiated with all of them is ishwara then ishwara becomes nothing

but the consciousness associated with 10 ignorant people and hence

should be atleast as ignorant as any of the 10 individials if not

more!

 

How can we accept this?

Dear Vinayka,

I am not well -read in scriptures to clarify this aspect. But my understanding from my small experience, which is not a non-verbal understanding, the position is as follows. The totality of Iswara is not in a fragmented sense to admit of the position of the ignorance of the jivas collectively being transmitted to Iswara. The several jivas constitute only the subjective dream of one jiva who has to ask himself the question, "To whom is the jivahood?" When the one jiva understands his true nature he is not different from Iswara. All problems arise only from the viewpoint of the reality of oneself as an individual, confounding the reflected consciousness to be the true Self. The Selfhood is taken for granted by this reflection which considers the dream objects of its own projection to be the others, which is the fate of others also. Iswara contains the potentiality of all unreal objects, the ignorance of such objects not being transmitted

to Him either individually or collectively. Iswarahood is a transition for the jiva that should take place in an objective sense to understand the transcendental Brahman. But Ramana Maharishi confines himself to the subjective side of Maya, asking us to trace back our thoughts to the basic origin of thoughts, the I thought. If we have the predilection for jnana path, we need not concentrate on this question which might even be a digression.

yours ever in Bhaghavan

Sankarraman

 

 

 

..

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Vinayaka" <vinayaka_ns wrote:

>

>

> Dear Advaitins,

>

> Namaste,

>

> There had been many discussions in this forum on the above topic.

> The topic seems to be very abstruse. In advaita vedanta it is said

> that liberation in the truest sense of the term consists in

> transcending the triad of jiva, ishwara and jagat and in the same

> breath it is said that mukti is possible only by the grace of god

> which makes very difficult to define the role of ishwara and his

> grace.

 

Namaste All,

 

It is a case of semantics as usual. Iswara/Saguna and Grace are

actually Karma and Prana. Ultimately they are a delusion and don't

exist. There is no time therefore there is no Iswara doing anything

but supplying the illusory energy. I'm afraid chaps, no 'God' is

there to help you but yourself and your karma..........Tony.

[Guest guest]

advaitin, Ganesan Sankarraman <shnkaran

wrote:

 

 

Iswarahood is a transition for the

jiva that should take place in an objective sense to understand the

transcendental Brahman.

 

Dear Sir,

 

I am not sure whether this view has got scantion of the scriptures

in the advaita vedanta.

 

Even in Yoga philosophy eventhough there is no difference between

the mukta purusha and ishwara it is still differentiated. The

Example given is the criminal who got released from prison and a

free man who never went to jail at all. Both are free 'now' but

Ishwara was never bound. He is also called adi-guru.

 

Yours in Sri Ramakrishna,

 

Br. Vinayaka

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Vinayaka" <vinayaka_ns wrote:

>

>

> Dear Advaitins,

>

> Namaste,

..

 

> To come to the point in the Advaita vedanta Ishwara is defined as

> Consciousness asscociated with Maya or Primordial ignoracne. Jiva

> too is the 'part' of maya. It is said that Jiva is limited,

ignorant

> and bound. But ishwara is said to be the ruler of maya omnipotent

> omniscient and endowded with all the virtues.

>

> It means to say that

> total maya+ asscociated consciousness=all powerful lord

> jiva(part of maya and hence all jivas put together should be equal

> to maya)+associated consciousness=Bound Ignorant Jiva.

>

> Suppose there are 10 ignorant people in the room and individually

we

> are calling them ignorant and if we say that consciousness

> asscoiated with all of them is ishwara then ishwara becomes

nothing

> but the consciousness associated with 10 ignorant people and hence

> should be atleast as ignorant as any of the 10 individials if not

> more!

>

> How can we accept this?

>

> Recently i was listening to the talk by Sw. Paramarthanandaji on

> Tattwabodha and he said that Jiva is consciousness associated with

> ashuddha sattva or avidya and the ishwara is shuddha sattwa

pradhana

> or maya in its purest form. This seems to be somewhat satisfactory

> explanation. But still i am not fully conviced.

>

> Can any of the members show references to the above mentioned

points

> in upnishads and the brahmasutra commentery by Adi Shankara? and

> make my understanding better in this matter?

>

> Yours in Sri Ramakrishna,

>

> Br. Vinayaka

>

 

ShrIgurubhyo namaH

 

Namaste Br. Vinayaka ji,

 

Here is a Panchadashi verse:

 

MAyAkhyaayAh kAmadhenoH vatsau jIveshwarAvubhau

yatheccham pibatAm dwaitam tattvam tu advaitameva hi.

 

[The Celestial Cow 'Kaamadhenu'has two calves: Ishwara and jiva.

All dwaita is in the realm of these two calves, but the ultimate

Truth is Advaita where neither of these, Ishwara and jiva, exist.]

 

>From the above we learn that both Ishwara and jiva

are 'within'Maaya. Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa has put these

concepts in the most easily understandable manner: Ishwara

is 'vidya' Maayaa, and jiva is 'avidyaa' Maayaa. It is only when

jiva turns to Ishwara the avidya is gradually eradicated and finally

realization dawns. This is known as Vidya which leads to

liberation.

 

It would be pertinent to look at these two, Ishwara and jiva, with

the aid of an example. Let us take the familiar 'jail' example

which you alluded to in a later post.

 

Supposing there is a jail: Central Prison. There are many convicts,

prisoners, undergoing sentences. To manage the prison/ers, there is

an establishment headed by a Jail Superintendent. Now, both the

establishment and the whole lot of prisoners exist in the prison

premises. Yet, the establishment is not called 'criminals'; only

the prisoners are. While the establishment takes care of the

prisoners by providing food, clothing, medical care, entertainment,

moral education, recreation, games, etc., the prisoners are

dependent on these. When a prisoner completes the term and the

establishment gets the order to release him, the Jail Suptd.

officially declares him released. When in the prison, both the

establishment and the prisoners have a common shelter, the prison.

But, we can see another dimension too. The people in the

establishment and the prisoners are all citizens of this country.

That way, they all share another common feature, the citizenship of

one country.

 

We have Ishwara and jivas, both existing within Maaya. Jivas are

bound and can't go out of Maya of their own. Ishwara takes care of

all jivas by giving their karma phala; He is karma phala daataa.

When the jivas remain obedient to the rules of Ishwara and develop

devotion to Him, He, at the appropriate stages, gives them

opportunity for Atma Vidya and helps them in saadhana. He provides

them with the apt Guru. He pardons their mistakes, slips, in life.

He gives them strength to cultivate daivi sampat, divine qualities

and eschew aasurii sampat, demoniacal traits. When the jivas are

ripe He bestows them with Atma vidya and releases them from samsara

and from His hold.

 

>From the metaphysical angle, the prison example helps understand

this concept thus: Maaya, the prison, houses both Ishwara and jiva.

Yet, as Pure Consciousness ('citizens of a country'), Ishwara and

jiva share the same property; in essence both are Pure Consciousness

alone. This is what is taught by the Mahavakya.

 

The equations that you have provided can be seen to be without

substance. The avidya of the jivas cannot be added up to constitute

the Maya that is the upaadhi of Ishwara. We call a huge group of

trees a forest. A forest thus is a totality of the trees. Yet we

have not put together all the trees to make one huge tree. Each

tree exists, although within the forest, as an individual tree.

Likewise, even though Ishwara is the 'samashti', total avidya, He is

not the totality of all the avidyas added together. Each

avidya/jiva exists individually within the Total Ishwara. Even in

pralaya, the avidya/karma of each jiva is held intact; only that it

is rendered unidentifiable then. Ishwara, in this sense, should not

be understood as a mere collection of the avidyas of the jivas; He

is much more than that: He is the whole creation itself consisting

of various other objects like oceans, rivers, mountains, etc.

 

When we say Ishwara is associated with 'total' Maya, what is meant

is he is associated with the knowledge of all the jivas' karma,

their avidya and more than that, the knowledge of eradicating that

avidya. This extra thing Ishwara has the jivas do not have. It is

only Ishwara that can give this knowledge, its method, the sadhana,

etc. Since all these: the jivas, their karma, their avidya, the

knowledge that removes avidya, Iswara himself etc., are included

under that one umbrella called Maya, we get the picture that Ishwara

is associated with this total knowledge and jiva is not so fully

accomplished. That is why jiva is called 'alpajna', little-knower,

and Ishwara is called 'sarvajna', all-knower. It is only with this

sarvajnatva that Ishwara manages with world-show in an 'orderly'

manner.

 

All these are mentioned in the Brahma sutras, spread out in many

sutras and the Acharya has commented upon these. It is based upon

these that the later Advaita Acharyas have developed several

prakriyas. A study of the Panchadashi will give a clear idea of the

Ishwara-jiva concept.

 

Prof.VK ji too recently replied some questions of Shri

Mahadevaadvaita with the Panchadashi quotes.

 

All the Upanishads prescribe the three-fold path: Karma, Bhakti and

Jnana. It is a sequential path and no element of these can be

avoided; they are not optional. It is an evolutionary path. It is

not for nothing that Lord Krishna explicitly mentions in the Gita

several times: Be devoted to Me, become My devotee, prostrate to Me,

offer everything to Me, adore Me, think and talk about Me, etc.

Only if the element of Bhakti to Ishwara is cultivated and put in

place, our karma will start behaving favourably and the goal of

liberation attained. Ishwara cannot be dismissed from the scheme of

sadhana. It is an indispensible factor that gets sublimated finally

into realization.

 

Just some thoughts. Trust these help in your quest. I just spared

myself the labour of picking out a number of references from the

Upanishads, sutras, Gita, etc. Many of these are covered

elaborately in the notes on Sridakshinamurtistotram.

 

Warm regards,

subbu

Om Tat Sat

[Guest guest]

Vinayaka <vinayaka_ns > wrote: advaitin, Ganesan Sankarraman <shnkaran

wrote:

 

Iswarahood is a transition for the

jiva that should take place in an objective sense to understand the

transcendental Brahman.

 

Dear Sir,

 

I am not sure whether this view has got scantion of the scriptures

in the advaita vedanta.

 

Even in Yoga philosophy eventhough there is no difference between

the mukta purusha and ishwara it is still differentiated. The

Example given is the criminal who got released from prison and a

free man who never went to jail at all. Both are free 'now' but

Ishwara was never bound. He is also called adi-guru.

Dear Vinayka,

I have already told you that I am not well-tutored in traditional philosophy to be competent enough to answer your question. In the strict understanding of advaita, even the jiva has never been bound; he is not the criminal who got released from the prision; were it so, he would go to the prison again in the future, because the very individual existence, as well as time, is a case of perpetration of the crime of anjana, carrying the risk oneself being imprisoned. It is all an incubus one understands it to be one one wakes up. What I have attempted to convey by the position of jiva's transition to the status of Iswara is not to invest him with powers to create etc, which all at the pinnacle of understanding has been declared to be unmitigated illusions. Iswara has been declared to be Suddha-satva by Ramana Maharishi. The Jiva also should be filled with satva to have the final understanding. Pancadasi has declared Iswara and the jiva to be

reflections of Brahman in the Satvic and Rajasic aspects of Maya, with the hypothesis that Iswara is not bound by the Maya whereas the very same Maya as Avidya makes the Jiva flounder under the illusion that he is different from the very same Iswara. Your example of equating the avidyas of jiva with Iswara is not correct. The unreal aspect of the jiva is not at once the Iswara. The jiva and Iswara shorn of their adventitious attributes, carrying the common ground of consciousness, alone are equal. It is not even, I think, after a reading of Bhaghavan, a fact of one becoming the other. There is only the Brahman. The existence of Iswara is only a working hypothesis to explain the reason for this creation. This statement is not to decry Yoga and the devotional schools. Advaita seems to be a paradox and mystery, and even appears to be blasphemy if understood purely from a verbal level. I am also not free from doubts since all my understanding is born of belief in some

theories, and does not constitute a real perception. Nisargdatta says that the Jnani is a non-doer as against the Iswara being the cause of creation. Excuse me if my understanding is very poor. I request the new moderator to explain this subject in a better way.

Yours ever in Bhaghavan

Sankarraman

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Advaitins,

 

Thanks for correcting my equation and helping me to see the concept

from different perspectives.

 

Someone was explaining about incarnation. He told, See it is very

difficult rather impossible to explain how the lord the absolute

brahman incarnates and descends to the relative plane and what his

real nature as an incarnation is. But it is a fact and cannot be

denied too.

 

Personally i do not believe that ishwara is a working hyposthesis. But

he is the bestower of knowledge and freedom to the bound souls by his

immaculate grace. One of my prayer to him is 'Please help me

understand who you are and what is your real nature is!'