Quotes of Narayana Maharaja on Prabhupada's books?

[Guest guest]

My impression from having been on the World Tour of BVNM was that many people had left ISKCON due to the things mentioned in "Dial Om for Murder", "Monkey on a Stick", and "Betrayal of the Spirit."

 

Such as: being dragged by their hair down Watseka Avenue for saying that the Zonal Acharyas are not the same as Prabhupada, when they ought to know that, having been married to one of them.

 

Also was my impression that some people who had tried their level best to work within the system of ISKCON had really horrendous experiences with management all the way up to the top: corruption in regards to the protection of women, children, cows, the elderly, and brahmanas.

 

That is why there were questions about the controversial topics that Guruvani mentioned. Some people in the audience who came to publicly advertised programs were asking the questions of BVNM: well why was there the child abuse in ISKCON then if it is a branch of the Chaitanya tree? Why did Swamiji say this and that if he was a self-realized soul and so on?

 

So from what I heard and saw, it appeared to me that BVNM was trying to help people not to lose faith. Also some people are not happy to smoke dope and paint Trident nuclear submarines as an alternative to being in ISKCON; ditto others are not happy to live on one acre of land in Florida in a shack and sit in front of a computer with a naked self-portrait of oneself criticising other people who are actually travelling around the world sharing hari-katha and who have led pilgrimmages in the holy dhama for over 50 years.

 

So I feel very sad that you feel the need to criticise people who like to do things like lead pilgrimmages for over 50 years in the holy dhama and give last rites to ACBSP per his request. I'm sure you are doing a better job sharing the message of BG, SB, and CC all over the world so you are really in a good position to criticise others. Why just looking at your naked avatar I feel purified and I certainly don't get the willies looking at it one iota.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

Wasn't the zonal acarya fiasco in part due to Narayana Maharaja's advice?

Didn't the Gaudiya Math suffer the same fate for exacly the same reasons?

There are quotes from Prabhupada that forbade his disciples from taking instruction from his godbrothers. All in all it's a risky business.

You are confusing the identities of Srila Sridhar Maharaja and Srila Narayana Maharaja.

[Guruvani]

 

It is you with your cultural conditioning that are saying that certain views are "racist and sexist". In his speech "The Bhagavat" Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur says that even transcendental writers must be viewed in relation to the times and culture in which they lived and preached. He also said that "no book is perfect".

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 1.5.11

tad-vāg-visargo janatāgha-viplavo

yasmin prati-ślokam abaddhavaty api

nāmāny anantasya yaśo 'ńkitāni yat

śṛṇvanti gāyanti gṛṇanti sādhavaḥ

 

On the other hand, that literature which is full of descriptions of the transcendental glories of the name, fame, forms, pastimes, etc., of the unlimited Supreme Lord is a different creation, full of transcendental words directed toward bringing about a revolution in the impious lives of this world's misdirected civilization. Such transcendental literatures, even though imperfectly composed, are heard, sung and accepted by purified men who are thoroughly honest.

According to Srila Sridhar Maharaja the scriptures are the recorded sound vibrations of the sadhus or "sages".

The concept of "as it is" presented by Srila Prabhupada is not necessarily siddhantic and is more in the realm of a preaching technique. The concept of "subjective evolution of consciousness" presented by Srila Sridhar Maharaja is more in the line of siddhanta. Although Srila Prabhupada did not use that terminology he certainly knew it but was reluctant to give such subtle concepts to his followers for fear that they would misinterpret such concepts and return to impersonalism.

If one mistakenly applies "as it is" to siddhanta avoiding the subtle concepts of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur, Srila Saraswati Thakur and Srila Sridhar Maharaja they become a sentimental literist and therefore a superfundamentalist fanatic. This phenomena is certainly to be seen in the so-called "Prabhupadanuga" and rtvik section wherein they totally misinterpret Srila Prabhupada's teachings for they divorce him from the entire guru varga. Like I have said before, it is as if Guruvani has never been exposed to the teachings of Srila Sridhar Maharaja, otherwise it would not be possible for him to continue with his preposterous ideas.

 

To say that the "AS IT IS" idea is not siddhantic is dullard thinking.

All the acharyas have stressed that spiritual knowledge must come down unadulterated, intact and "As It Is".

"As It Is" simply means that it is coming down through disciplic succession.

 

To say that "As It Is" is not siddhantic is a blatant assault on the integrity of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Please show us any original Vedic text which promotes the concept of "subjective evolution of consciousness" as told by Sridhar Maharaja.

 

On the basis of what Gaudiya text is that idea based on?

 

Is consciousness evolving or unfolding?

 

Is there something in the consciousness that evolves or it is something that is unearthed from the coverings of illusion?

[Guruvani]

 

You are confusing the identities of Srila Sridhar Maharaja and Srila Narayana Maharaja.

Don't fool yourself.

Narayana Maharaja has been in the mix from the very beginning as being involved with all the senior ISKCON men during the funeral process of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Right off the bat Narayana Maharaja was hatefully decrying the ritvik concept and saying that nothing except the "traditional" parampara can be acceptable.

 

Sridhar Maharaja NEVER espoused the kind of vile contempt for the ritvik system that Narayana Maharaja has from the very beginning.

 

However, because these 11 ritviks knew that Srila Prabhupada gave more seniority and recognition to Sridhar Maharaja than Narayana Maharaja, they preferred to use Sridhar Maharaja as the fall-guy for the zonal guru scam, even though Narayana Maharaja was always there in the background spewing hatred and venom against the ritvik concept.

[cbrahma]

This isn't just my confusion and/or speculation. Others have said similar things.

 

 

 

<B>Duties & Position of the GBC and Current Diksha gurus

We’ve outlined the management system and how new devotees obtained guidance from that system in Srila Prabhupad's physical presence. Since then several systems have been tried since Srila Prabhupad’s disappearance to accommodate the new diksha gurus into that established system.

 

 

 

The Zonal Acharya

This was the first attempt. Many have documented that this idea came from consulting Srila Sridhar Maharaj and

possibly Srila Narayan Maharaj,

and many also understand that to have been against the desire and instructions of Srila Prabhupad. Srila Sridhar Maharaj’s main point for suggesting the Zonal Acharya system rests at the heart of this issue as I have also pointed out. His point was that you cannot have two authorities. A disciple cannot accept the GBC as ultimate authority, and accept a spiritual master, as the spiritual master, by definition, is taken as one’s master, one’s ultimate authority. You cannot have two such masters

 

 

 

</B>

http://www.16108.com/NoNeedOfChange.htm

 

 

You are confusing the identities of Srila Sridhar Maharaja and Srila Narayana Maharaja.

[cbrahma]

He must be pushing the 'living-guru' agenda or he would leave well enough alone. Srila Prabhupada has given sufficient instructions. Why do I need Narayana Maharaja's instructions as well?

I know, so I can take initiation from him.

 

 

That's more or less what I meant. He is aware of some of the things Srila Prabhupada has taught, but he has not studied thoroughly everything Srila Prabhupada wrote.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

Is consciousness evolving or unfolding?

 

Is there something in the consciousness that evolves or it is something that is unearthed from the coverings of illusion?

The answer is both are true and that paradoxical reality was decscribed by Mahaprabhu as acintya-bheda (a)bheda tattva. The simultaneous one and difference of every aspect of Reality the Beautiful. Is consciousness dynamic or static?

[Shakti-Fan]

 

He must be pushing the 'living-guru' agenda or he would leave well enough alone. Srila Prabhupada has given sufficient instructions. Why do I need Narayana Maharaja's instructions as well?

I know, so I can take initiation from him.

Not necessarily. This is a siksa guru parampara. The rule is diksa, but there are always exceptions to the rule. In fact the sastra says that the holy name is so powerful that diksa may not be required. Yet the same thing is true of sadhana siddha and krpa siddha (through mercy only). Most people get a bachelors degree by matriculating through a four year college program. Some very rare persons get an honorary degree. So like Srila Prabhupada said, don't count on it. Do the sadhana, the work, and qualify for the mercy. So the standard process is to start connecting with the spiritual master through submissive inquiry and service Then generally one will receive hari nama and diksa mantras and then comes the real sadhana. But sadhana is just devotional service in practice not service "proper". Our real eternal service connection will descend to us by the sweet will of the Lord. Try to apply the Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's concept of acintya bheda (a)bheda tattva. Prabhupadanuga is a bogus concept. Our line is Rupanuga and Srila Prabhupada is Rupanuga.

[Guest guest]

if your really read Srila Prabhupada´s books, you would not be discussing these points, and you should be serving Srila Narayana Maharaja!

[Shakti-Fan]

 

if your really read Srila Prabhupada´s books, you would not be discussing these points, and you should be serving Srila Narayana Maharaja!

This is the kind of neophyte sentimentalism that sometimes disguises itself in the name of devotion to Krsna and guru. You are simply giving the enemies of Srila Narayana Maharaja reasons to support their own doubts that there is some kind of irrational fanaticism in your sanga. Not all his followers believe that Srila Narayana Maharaja is the only guru.

"Religion without philosophy is sentiment, or sometimes fanaticism, while philosophy without religion is mental speculation." Srila Prabhupada's purport B.G. As it Is 3.3.

On the other hand one cannot deny the importance of practical service to Sri Guru. But who is really serving their guru?

 

Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

Los Angeles, May 30, 2000

"We should not always remain in the kanistha-adhikari stage. There should be a way to go up to something superior, but our minds will not go there. We should try to make advancement through someone who is superior, through those who are practically serving, whose minds are there, who know Prabhupada's mood, and who know the very deep process of Srila Rupa Gosvami and Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami that Srila Svami Maharaja has written about in his books. We should try to go very deep."

[gibbon]

When is Krishna returning?

[cbrahma]

Yes I know what kind of parampara it is. There is much evidence that formal diksa is not an absolute requirement (how could it be). I'm sure that Narayana Maharaj would promote it though if I asked him directly. Why would I need his siksha otherwise? I only know of his supsicious involvment with ISKCON GBC. There are so many book by Prabhupada that contain more than I can even read in this lifetime.

 

 

 

Not necessarily. This is a siksa guru parampara. The rule is diksa, but there are always exceptions to the rule. In fact the sastra says that the holy name is so powerful that diksa may not be required. Yet the same thing is true of sadhana siddha and krpa siddha (through mercy only). Most people get a bachelors degree by matriculating through a four year college program. Some very rare persons get an honorary degree. So like Srila Prabhupada said, don't count on it. Do the sadhana, the work, and qualify for the mercy. So the standard process is to start connecting with the spiritual master through submissive inquiry and service Then generally one will receive hari nama and diksa mantras and then comes the real sadhana. But sadhana is just devotional service in practice not service "proper". Our real eternal service connection will descend to us by the sweet will of the Lord. Try to apply the Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's concept of acintya bheda (a)bheda tattva. Prabhupadanuga is a bogus concept. Our line is Rupanuga and Srila Prabhupada is Rupanuga.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

Yes I know what kind of parampara it is. There is much evidence that formal diksa is not an absolute requirement (how could it be). I'm sure that Narayana Maharaj would promote it though if I asked him directly. Why would I need his siksha otherwise? I only know of his supsicious involvment with ISKCON GBC. There are so many book by Prabhupada that contain more than I can even read in this lifetime.

 

The same exact arguments were used against associating with Srila Sridhar Maharaja in the 1980's. Adi Kesava Prabhu who was a GBC told me personally that Srila Prabhupada told him personally that if he had any questions after him departure to go to Srila Sridhar Maharaja. At the time he told me this, he had no connection with any sanga of devotees; so I don't see that he would have any unseen motives. This confirms what Satsvarupa Maharaja said in his Potomac speech of Oct. 1980. Also any bonafide Gaudiya Vaisnava would promote diksa, just like any college official would tell you to enroll in college and not expect an honorary degree. Honorary degrees exist but they are very rare. If no one enrolled in colleges then the whole system would be finished. That is why the apasidhhantic Rtvik misconception is a direct threat to the very existance of Brahma Madhva Gaudiya Sampradaya. Whether you know it or not the ideas that you espouse are the very cornerstone of "Prabhupadanuga Rtvikism". It is almost like you are diksa-phobic. Just because some people are cheated into purchasing Fool's Gold as real gold, doesn't mean that real gold doesn't exist. At least by some good fortune I have seen real gold so I know that it exists.

[cbrahma]

Prabhupada said, Prabuhpada told . That and a couple of dollars will buy you lunch at the corner deli. I am very careful about selling my soul, yep. I'm very phobic about that. Bogus-phobic.

 

 

 

The same exact arguments were used against associating with Srila Sridhar Maharaja in the 1980's. Adi Kesava Prabhu who was a GBC told me personally that Srila Prabhupada told him personally that if he had any questions after him departure to go to Srila Sridhar Maharaja. At the time he told me this, he had no connection with any sanga of devotees; so I don't see that he would have any unseen motives. This confirms what Satsvarupa Maharaja said in his Potomac speech of Oct. 1980. Also any bonafide Gaudiya Vaisnava would promote diksa, just like any college official would tell you to enroll in college and not expect an honorary degree. Honorary degrees exist but they are very rare. If no one enrolled in colleges then the whole system would be finished. That is why the apasidhhantic Rtvik misconception is a direct threat to the very existance of Brahma Madhva Gaudiya Sampradaya. Whether you know it or not the ideas that you espouse are the very cornerstone of "Prabhupadanuga Rtvikism". It is almost like you are diksa-phobic. Just because some people are cheated into purchasing Fool's Gold as real gold, doesn't mean that real gold doesn't exist. At least by some good fortune I have seen real gold so I know that it exists.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

...I am very careful about selling my soul, yep. I'm very phobic about that. Bogus-phobic.

Bogus-phobic is OK but you must admit that the reason persons are cheated by those selling Fool's Gold is that they are looking for real gold; and that real gold exists.

[Guest guest]

 

Right off the bat Narayana Maharaja was hatefully decrying the ritvik concept and saying that nothing except the "traditional" parampara can be acceptable.

 

 

 

But what can be done? Does Narayana Maharaja ever change his policy? Just because he doesnt change he and his followers consider that as the cause of his success!

That Prabhupada's original ISKCON doesnt exist anymore can only be compensated with this attitude:

 

SB 10.8.41

...Therefore when a devotee cannot ascertain the cause of suffering, he concludes:

 

tat te 'nukampāḿ susamīkṣamāṇo

bhuñjāna evātma-kṛtaḿ vipākam

hṛd-vāg-vapurbhir vidadhan namas te

jīveta yo mukti-pade sa dāya-bhāk

 

(Bhāg. 10.14.8)

 

The devotee accepts that it is due to his own past misdeeds that the Supreme Personality of Godhead has caused him some small amount of suffering...

 

Same thing, followers of Prabhupada consider all that is happening right now as suffering, but can it be changed? No!

Therefore it is to be considered as the mercy of the Lord and we have to accept. It's that simple.

[cbrahma]

The real gold is Srila Prabhupada's instructions, recorded in his books and lectures. I follow those and I don't get burned. I become happy.

 

 

Bogus-phobic is OK but you must admit that the reason persons are cheated by those selling Fool's Gold is that they are looking for real gold; and that real gold exists.

[Guest guest]

this post has absolutly no sence, is like wondering if Srila Prabhupada ever read, preach and distribute the books of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur, or if Srila Bhaktisiddhanta evere distribute and read the books of Srila Gour Kishore dasBabaji Maharaja....

 

no sence, pure devotees know the absolute trouth by heart, realization and the mercy of their own diksa and siksa guru.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

The real gold is Srila Prabhupada's instructions, recorded in his books and lectures. I follow those and I don't get burned. I become happy.

Great sentiment but that's a classic circular argument, meaning that its an illogical response. We are essentially discussing what is in Prabhupada's books not whether we accept them or who is most appreciative of them. I'm assuming that your idea is that you have received Hari Nama from Srila Prabhupada through his books or cds and mp3s etc. It also seems that you do not consider receiving the diksa mantras to have much value. The whole thing comes down to this. Just because structure and form are only there to transfer the real substance doesn't mean that the structure and form should be abandoned. If we have to choose between form (formality not spiritual form) and substance we must choose substance. Yet if we renounce all form, in this case the formality of diksa, on a permanent basis, then we will destroy the vessel in which the Absolute substance is generally conveyed in this relative world. Formal diksa is not the real substantial diksa which entails full surrender to the Lord. But this doesn't mean that formal diksa is to be thrown out because it is the formal diksa that gives one the opportunity of a real connection with divinity through surrender and therefore surrender to Sri Guru. Now another point is that I are not saying that you are not connected with Srila Prabhupada through his vani (books).

Maybe that's part of why this seems so absurd to you. You definitely feel the connection and you have direct experience of it, and its like the so called "vapu-vadis" are telling you that this is not the case. But I am not telling you that and its not the real issue. Of course there are fanatics on both sides of the issue. Remember we are dealing with something which is really the most subte of the subtle. We are really dealing with Krsna Himself and ultimately He is free to reveal Himself however he chooses.

[cbrahma]

It is perfectly logical, speaking to your statement about authentic gold.

To call the acknowledgment of a self-effulgent acarya sentimental is really twisted.

 

 

Great sentiment but that's a classic circular argument, meaning that its an illogical response. We are essentially discussing what is in Prabhupada's books not whether we accept them or who is most appreciative of them. I'm assuming that your idea is that you have received Hari Nama from Srila Prabhupada through his books or cds and mp3s etc. It also seems that you do not consider receiving the diksa mantras to have much value. The whole thing comes down to this. Just because structure and form are only there to transfer the real substance doesn't mean that the structure and form should be abandoned. If we have to choose between form (formality not spiritual form) and substance we must choose substance. Yet if we renounce all form, in this case the formality of diksa, on a permanent basis, then we will destroy the vessel in which the Absolute substance is generally conveyed in this relative world. Formal diksa is not the real substantial diksa which entails full surrender to the Lord. But this doesn't mean that formal diksa is to be thrown out because it is the formal diksa that gives one the opportunity of a real connection with divinity through surrender and therefore surrender to Sri Guru. Now another point is that I are not saying that you are not connected with Srila Prabhupada through his vani (books).

Maybe that's part of why this seems so absurd to you. You definitely feel the connection and you have direct experience of it, and its like the so called "vapu-vadis" are telling you that this is not the case. But I am not telling you that and its not the real issue. Of course there are fanatics on both sides of the issue. Remember we are dealing with something which is really the most subte of the subtle. We are really dealing with Krsna Himself and ultimately He is free to reveal Himself however he chooses.

[theist]

 

if your really read Srila Prabhupada´s books, you would not be discussing these points, and you should be serving Srila Narayana Maharaja!

 

This is the attitude that causes me to avoid Naryana Maharaj's teachings. It is so long held and widely accepted by his followers that the sincere followers of Srila Prabhupada are the ones that serve Narayana Maharaja and that is how you can measure their level of sincerity.

 

Pure nonsense. But they keep coming with the same tired refrain. They don't seem to understand that the same Srila Prabhupada can still be served. They also don't seem to understand that all their talk of replacing Srila Prabhupada with a new figurehead because the new one has a manifested body is highly offense to the followers of Srila Prabhupada. It sounds very much like the christian fanatics that tell you you must worship Jesus or you are doomed.

 

Man, these guru pushers are irritating as hell.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

It is perfectly logical, speaking to your statement about authentic gold.

To call the acknowledgment of a self-effulgent acarya sentimental is really twisted.

I'm not perfect but try to also respond to some of the other points I brought up in my post. (think first).

[Guruvani]

In this purport by Srila Prabhupada he explains the wide and expansive platform of the Krishna conciousness movement.

He makes it clear that joining the cult and adopting all the cult trappings is not necessary.

As Krishna consciousness sheds the cloak of ritual, ceremony and formality it will spread far and wide unfettered by the cultural shackles of India and Indian tradition.

As the yuga-dharma, the chanting of the Holy Name is above and beyond all ritual, ceremony and formality.

It is the birthright of all the souls who get human birth in this kali-yuga.

 

CC,Madhya 7. 128, purport -

 

 

This is the sublime mission of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. Many people come and inquire whether they have to give up family life to join the Society, but that is not our mission. One can remain comfortably in his residence. We simply request everyone to chant the maha-mantra: Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare. Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. If one is a little literate and can read the Bhagavad-gita As It Is and Srimad-Bhagavatam, that is so much the better. These works are now available in an English translation and are done very authoritatively to appeal to all classes of men. Instead of living engrossed in material activities, people throughout the world should take advantage of this movement and chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra at home with their families. One should also refrain from sinful activities--illicit sex, meat-eating, gambling and intoxication. Out of these four items, illicit sex is very sinful. Every person must get married. Every woman especially must get married. If the women outnumber the men, some men can accept more than one wife. In that way there will be no prostitution in society. If men can marry more than one wife, illicit sex life will be stopped. One can also produce many nice preparations to offer Krsna--grain, fruit, flowers and milk. Why should one indulge in unnecessary meat-eating and maintain horrible slaughterhouses? What is the use of smoking and drinking tea and coffee? People are already intoxicated by material enjoyment, and if they indulge in further intoxication, what chance is there for self-realization? Similarly, one should not partake in gambling and unnecessarily agitate the mind. The real purpose of human life is to attain the spiritual platform and return to Godhead. That is the summum bonum of spiritual realization. The Krsna consciousness movement is trying to elevate human society to the perfection of life by pursuing the method described by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu in His advice to the brahmana Kurma. That is, one should stay at home, chant the Hare Krsna mantra and preach the instructions of Krsna as they are given in the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam.

 

This is the message of Srila Prabhupada.

Chasing this sadhu or that sadhu around the world hoping for some magical transformation because one can make airfare to get on a wide-body jet and fly around the world is artificial beyond description.

 

Airfare can't get you to Vrindavan, neither can it get you sadhu sanga if you can't find it in the Srimad Bhagavatam and Caitanya Caritamrita.

 

We can associate with so many great sadhus and pure devotees in the books of Srila Prabhupada.

Chasing the vapu of some so-called holy man around the world is not sadhu sanga.

We need sadhu sanga to get good instructions.

Sadhu sanga is not about physical proximity to the vapu of a pure devotee.

It's about hearing the instructions and teachings of all the greatest devotees who have contributed a vast treasure of Vaishnava literatures.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

This is the attitude that causes me to avoid Naryana Maharaj's teachings. It is so long held and widely accepted by his followers that the sincere followers of Srila Prabhupada are the ones that serve Narayana Maharaja and that is how you can measure their level of sincerity...

 

I've read most of Srila Narayana Maharaja's books and meet him several times. I condsider him one of my siksa gurus. If look at my post #60 on this thread you'll see my attitude towards "guru fanatics".

[Guest guest]

 

When is Krishna returning?

He will be arriving at Logan Airport at 7:40 this evening if the Boston weather holds up.