Quotes of Narayana Maharaja on Prabhupada's books?

[Shakti-Fan]

I've said this before that its odd that Guruvani was at one time a follower of Sridhar Maharaja. Some find it extreme that some of Sridhar Maharaja's followers from the eighties went to Narayana Maharaja. They certainly comprise a minority, maybe only 15 to 20%. But I know of no other follower of Sridhar Maharaja from the eighties who is an ISKCON Rtvik. But it goes even further. Guruvani claims that Sridhar Maharaja established a posthumous rtvik initiating system. He is the only person in any camp that promotes this.

A lone wolf in the darkness that none of the Sridhar Maharaja followers in any camp would agree with. I wonder why?

[suchandra]

 

that is a lie.

Srila Prabhupada designed the ritvik system.

The "ritivks" had nothing to do with it.

Sridhar Maharaja also used ritviks.

 

The ritvik system was implemented and authorized by Srila Prabhupada, so you should stop telling lies that it was concocted by his disciples.

 

You must be totally ignorant of the true history of ISKCON, or you would know that Srila Prabhupada designed and established the ritvik system himself.

 

Nobody nowadays is not aware of how ritvik is just defeating all other options how to run ISKCON without embarrassment of a huge logbook of "fallen masters" and that it is also clear that Prabhupada set it up that way.

Looks rather like purposeful deception to say, "ritvik is a concocted system".

[Guruvani]

Srila Prabhupada never gave the GBC the authority to terminate the ritvik system in ISKCON.

To terminate something as integral and authorized as the ritvik system that was set up by the acharya himself, it would require specific authority from the acharya himself for the GBC to have authority to dismantle the ritvik system.

 

The acharya never gave the GBC authority to terminate the ritvik system.

 

Terminating the ritvik system in ISKCON was illegal, unauthorized and improper due to the lack of any authority from the acharya to do so.

[Guruvani]

 

I've said this before that its odd that Guruvani was at one time a follower of Sridhar Maharaja. Some find it extreme that some of Sridhar Maharaja's followers from the eighties went to Narayana Maharaja. They certainly comprise a minority, maybe only 15 to 20%. But I know of no other follower of Sridhar Maharaja from the eighties who is an ISKCON Rtvik. But it goes even further. Guruvani claims that Sridhar Maharaja established a posthumous rtvik initiating system. He is the only person in any camp that promotes this.

A lone wolf in the darkness that none of the Sridhar Maharaja followers in any camp would agree with. I wonder why?

Let me tell you about the day I became a "ritvik".

 

It was at the San Jose temple in California.

I was discussing some thing with Sudhir Maharaja.

 

I asked him what did he think Srila Prabhupada really wanted for ISKCON after his passing and Sudhir Maharaja quoted Srila Prabhupada as saying "don't change anything after I am gone".

 

Sudhir Maharaja was not a "ritvik" and was not promoting the ritvik idea, but when I heard him quote Srila Prabhupada as saying "don't change anything after I am gone", I immediately decided that it included the ritvik system as well. From that moment on I have been a ritvik devotee, even during my days at the San Jose temple.

Sudhir Maharaja made a ritvik out of me.

Rather, the orders of Srila Prabhupada made a ritvik out of me.

 

Like I have said before and I will say it again......

"what part of DON"T CHANGE ANYTHING after I am gone" is it that you dullards just don't understand?

[SishirSaha]

Room Conversation

 

Los Angeles, June 26, 1975

 

Prabhupada: So you have given up the Vaisnava-sadacara for business selling. So you can be dangerous for that.

Jamadagni: But we have also maintained the Vaisnava-sadacara. They didn't tell us...

Prabhupada: That's all right. You do that. But they do not see whether you are maintaining.

Jamadagni: But at the same time, when we were maintaining that, we had the same problems, is that, when we presented sociological applications of the philosophy, for instance, to arrange marriages in a reasonable way, that the women not be sent out on sankirtana to prostitute themselves to sell books, but be trained up to be wives, or that the brahmacaris in the temple, someone would sit and talk with them and see how many of them want to be married and try and arrange some type of training for them, knowing that most of them are going to become married, rather than just have no training and one day find oneself married, out on the street with no occupation or training.

Prabhupada: First of all, you are not trained up. You are sometimes becoming astrologer, sometimes this, sometimes that.

Jamadagni: It's true, because of my birth in this...

Prabhupada: So how they can follow you?

Kanupriya: We're not asking them to follow us. We're asking you Prabhupada, that these are some problems.

Prabhupada: My request is that first of all you adopt yourself the Vaisnava acara. Then you try to teach others. Otherwise you have no right.

Kanupriya: But we have done that for five years, and no one here listened to us at all.

Prabhupada: So why you are anxious to listen... You... Let them not listen. You do your own duty.

Kanupriya: We had no duty. They gave us nothing to do. They would not recognize our qualities, as we understand, even of, say Krsna consciousness.

Prabhupada: So what can I do?

Kanupriya: Well, you can make statements on certain of these things so that when they hear them, their ignorance will be dispelled.

Prabhupada: Then we have to hear both of you. We have to hear both you... There will be regular court, and we shall see.

Jamadagni: Not court, simply...

Prabhupada: No, no.

Kanupriya: That would be fine.

Jamadagni: Okay.

Prabhupada: Before me. You are saying something. They may say something else. So brothers together, we sit down together, and bring this...

Kanupriya: All right. But we have some, also, questions that don't require that. These are philosophical questions. For instance, in Krsna Book there is a statement that King Ugrasena had four billion personal servants. Now you have asked that we go and spread Krsna consciousness to the scientific community.

Prabhupada: So everyone is servant. What is the question of four billion? Krsna's servant...

Kanupriya: No, Ugrasena, King Ugrasena, that when he was on the planet, he had four billion personal servants.

Prabhupada: That's all right. He is always the master. He... The Krsna is the only master.

Kanupriya: Not Krsna. No. King Ugrasena, Prabhupada. Not Krsna. King Ugrasena. The statement is that King Ugrasena had four billion personal servants. Now, we have gone and tried to spread to the scientific community. And if we say to them, "There was a king whose name was Ugrasena. He had four billion personal servants," they laugh and say, "What did they do for toilets? What did they do for food? Where did they live?"

Prabhupada: So you want to preach this particular portion and no other portion?

Jamadagni: No. We want to... We want to know if the story has an allegorical meaning rather than a literal translation, or that King Ugrasena who was a man who lived five thousand years ago and had four billion bodyguards, or whether the stories within the Bhagavatam, apart from some of them being actual, are allegorical stories. Such as the story of Krsna and Balarama chopping off the the eighty-eight...

Prabhupada: All right. You can give up that portion. You can take other portion.

Kanupriya: We don't mean to give it up.

Jamadagni: We don't mean to give it up.

Kanupriya: We're saying how can we say to them...

Prabhupada: Anyone, anyone... Why you are going to preach that portion to a professor?

Jamadagni: No. When they read your books, they pose that question to us.

Kanupriya: They read it. They say to us.

Jamadagni: And unless we can answer that question...

Prabhupada: They ask to only you, but they never ask to us.

Revatinandana: They have. Sometimes they ask me.

Prabhupada: That's all right. Let them ask. But you can tell away that(?) but you don't repeat this thing. You can give up that portion. You read other portion.

Jamadagni: But then because so many things they have to accept on faith without knowing, it then weakens their faith as to what they should accept and why should they accept Krsna, who they can't see any more than King Ugrasena's four billion bodyguards.

Prabhupada: Don't accept. Don't accept.

Kanupriya: But we want them to accept. The point is, if we say to a scientific man, "There was four billion," and if our statement is wrong...

/Prabhupada: But our position is that if some portion we cannot understand, it is our incapability.

Kanupriya: That is all right. But since we are...

Prabhupada: That's all. Unless we have got this faith we cannot use these Puranas. In the Puranas there are many such statements.

Kanupriya: Yes, but we just want to understand.

Prabhupada: Therefore many people, they do not accept Puranas. So what can be done?

Kanupriya: We're just trying to understand it because we've never dealt with Puranas before. We have been your disciples. But when we present this to the scientific community, because you have said that if one word is wrong, the whole philosophy is wrong, so they will say to us...

Prabhupada: So let them take it and throw out, don't read it. That's all.

Kanupriya: But then they discredit the Bhagavad-gita. We don't like that when they discredit the Bhagavad-gita.

Prabhupada: Why? They don't believe. What is the use?

Kanupriya: Well, because we also want to know how did they have four billion personal servants just so that we'll be able to convince them and also...

Prabhupada: If a king has four billion servants, so it is not very astonishing. Why do you think that a king shall have only four servants?

Kanupriya: Well, there's only two billion people on the planet right now.

Prabhupada: That's all right.

Kanupriya: So where did they all go?

Prabhupada: I say you don't believe, you don't take it. Why you are insisting on that point? If you don't believe, you don't take it. If you don't believe the whole book or the whole society, then who forbids you?

Kanupriya: We were hoping that there are some things which can be improved, because they have not been set up by you.

Prabhupada: No. You cannot improve. Whatever we are, we are.

Kanupriya: Why can we not improve it?

Prabhupada: No. There is no possibility.

Kanupriya: Then what is the use of action?

Prabhupada: Action, whatever action we can do by chanting Hare Krsna, that's all.

Kanupriya: But we also have to make varnasrama society or farms or businesses.

Prabhupada: That, when we shall do, we shall see to it.

Kanupriya: But we are doing it. We are.

Jamadagni: We are doing it now, and that's the question...

Prabhupada: So do it in your own way.

Kanupriya: We don't want to. We want to do everything Krsna's way.

Prabhupada: Stop it. Stop it. I say stop it. You have come to me for my advice. I say you stop it.

Kanupriya: Then, we say, what should we do?

Prabhupada: You should do your business. That's all. Earn money and enjoy.

Kanupriya: No, I mean what should we do Krsna consciously?

Prabhupada: You give up Krsna consciousness, I say. That is my advice.

Kanupriya: Why should we do that?

Prabhupada: Then that I cannot say.

Jamadagni: Isn't there a middle of the road?

Prabhupada: If you are finding so many faults, you give it up.

Jamadagni: No. We're not finding fault.

Prabhupada: Then there is no other advance, alternative. No alternative. Either you accept or reject it.

Jamadagni: We accept, but we would like some instruction on...

Prabhupada: No. I have no such knowledge to convince you.

Jamadagni: No, we accept Krsna consciousness philosophy...

Prabhupada: That's all right. Accept, or if you reject, reject.

Jamadagni: We accept.

Kanupriya: We want to apply it.

Jamadagni: We want to apply it to the world as it is now.

Prabhupada: No no. You cannot. You are not authorized.

Jamadagni: Well, who is authorized?

Prabhupada: The authorized... You are not authorized. Who is authorized, that is not your business.

Kanupriya: Then what does it mean to become disciple?

Prabhupada: Disciple, if you don't like, give it up.

Kanupriya: We do like it.

Prabhupada: You have already given up.

Kanupriya: If we didn't like it, we would not come here.

Prabhupada: No, no. You have already given up. My disciples do not keep so many hair.

Kanupriya: Many of your disciples do.

Prabhupada: No. I don't accept that. You just this one circle, little. But those who are keeping big hairs, they are rejected from my disciples.

Kanupriya: All right. That is clearing some things up.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Kanupriya: This is what we want to know.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Kanupriya: Because then that is an unequivocal statement.

Prabhupada: No. This is, that you can, that anyone who is keeping hairs and not following the rules and regulations, they are rejected from second initiation.

Kanupriya: What if they are keeping hair but they are following the rules and regulations.

Prabhupada: Then let them follow. That's a good life. But from external features he must be a Vaisnava.

Kanupriya: To get second initiation.

Jamadagni: Does that mean shaved head?

Prabhupada: Caitanya Mahaprabhu, when His students used to come without tilaka, so He refused to see his face. He refused to see his face. He said it is a crematory ground.

Kanupriya: Why is that?

Prabhupada: There is no "why." If you accept it, accept. If you don't accept, leave us, leave us. There is no "why."

Kanupriya: Then that is...

Prabhupada: You are not following strictly. You cannot ask why.

Kanupriya: We could not ask why when we were following strictly either, Prabhupada. So I'm sorry that it has to be this way.

Prabhupada: No, our thing is that we have got some principles. If anyone cannot follow, then we don't accept him.

Jamadagni: Then what do you do with the rest of the world, except for the few people who...

rabhupada: So what I can do I am doing. Therefore you have no right to ask me. What is possible by me I am doing. And those who are able to follow, they are following. That's all.

Kanupriya: But they cannot engage anyone else. How can you reach the intelligent class?

Prabhupada: So that is their business. That is not your business.

Kanupriya: We are trying to be disciples, so we considered it our business because we are sincerely trying.

Prabhupada: So why you are bothering me? You do your business.

Kanupriya: Because from you only...

Prabhupada: I do not accept you because you are keeping hairs.

Kanupriya: I did not know that.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Kanupriya: You never told me that in Hawaii.

Prabhupada: Now I say, I'll repeat that anyone who is keeping long hairs, he is no more my disciple.

Kanupriya: All right.

Prabhupada: This is the first condition.

Jamadagni: Does that apply also for householder dharma, or is that simply for brahmacari dharma? Even you... I have pictures of you on the Bhagavatam when you did not have shaved head, with a mustache when you were doing your business as a householder. So does that apply to householders, or only to brahmacaris, that a householder must also keep a shaved head or is that...?

Prabhupada: At that time I was not initiated. You were seeing my picture, mustaches, at that time I was not initiated. Since I became initiated, I have shaven.

Jamadagni: Well, in India where one can do business...

Prabhupada: I can... Why you are bringing this question? You ask, "Why you had mustaches?" I say when I had mustaches, at that time, I was not initiated. That answer is given. That's all.

Kanupriya: Can I ask one more question, Prabhupada? What I would like to understand is why it is wrong to ask why? If I can just understand this, why it is wrong for us to ask you in a submissive way. We were humbly asking you these "whys," not because we are trying to be intimidating or we were trying to rebel, but because we have sincerely tried to understand as your disciples.

Prabhupada: So you better ask my so many other disciples?

Jamadagni: They don't have any answers.

Prabhupada: Then there is no answer. I cannot attend so many things.

Kanupriya: We are not so many.

Jamadagni: But these are the same questions which we have talked over with Revatinandana Swami and Jayatirtha. A great many...

Prabhupada: If my disciples, advanced students, cannot answer, then I am sorry. I cannot answer. I cannot answer.

Kanupriya: That we did not know. That we did not know.

Prabhupada: Yes. Now you know it. I have appointed so many GBCs because to help me. It is not possible to see everyone, individual. This is not...

Jamadagni: But these are the same questions which they themselves are posing to you.

Revatinandana: I have never met any other people who asked questions on the level that they are asking questions. I cannot answer many of their questions. I have studied all your books.

Prabhupada: I cannot. If you cannot, I cannot also. Because you have been taught by me, if you cannot, then it is...

Kanupriya: We have also been taught.

Revatinandana: I have read your books, and I have heard you lecture. And so many things they are asking, I am, have no capacity to answer them. But you must have the capacity because you know Krsna. Therefore they want to ask you personally.

Jamadagni: So that is the...

Prabhupada: So far I am not so able to answer. I admit my fault.

Jamadagni: Oh, so then that is...

Prabhupada: I cannot answer.

Jamadagni: I understand. Okay? But they are saying, the general conception of you is that because you know Krsna...

Prabhupada: You can... You...

Jamadagni: (interrupting) Excuse me. Because you know Krsna, therefore you know everything about the material world and can answer all questions.

Prabhupada: So whatever I know I have explained in my books. Beyond that I have no knowledge.

Kanupriya: If that is the case, Srila Prabhupada, that does not diminish our respect for you in the least because we have always held...

Prabhupada: So what can I do? I say that whatever I have got experience, I am explaining in my books. I have explained. So it is not possible for me to answer every individual person. It is not possible.

Kanupriya: We respect that. We understand. It is just that because they are saying these things...

Prabhupada: I have got my advanced students. They can answer. If they are unable, answer, if you do not find answer from my books, then it is hopeless.

Jamadagni: Ah! But your advanced students are saying if they give an answer that because they have been appointed by you, therefore their answer is perfectly correct, because, absolutely correct on all things in the relative world because, they have been appointed by you, and because you know...

Prabhupada: You may... That's all right. If you don't believe them, you can finish business.

Kanupriya: But are they correct? That's what we want to know.

Prabhupada: Yes. They are correct.

Kanupriya: That everything they say is the absolute truth?

Prabhupada: So what can I say? But I have no time to meet everyone.

Kanupriya: Is that correct, Srila Prabhupada? I want to know very clearly that every word that anyone whom you have appointed says is completely correct on all things?

Prabhupada: Yes. If they are authorized, it is correct.

Kanupriya: If they are authorized by you to be temple president...

Prabhupada: There is no reply.

Kanupriya: Then when (name witheld) said to me that he wanted to have homosexual affair with me, I should have said, "Okay. Whatever you say." Is that correct?

Prabhupada: So how to answer these questions?

Kanupriya: That is what he said to me. And he was a sannyasa. He is sannyasa and he said to me, "I want to have sex with you." Does that mean that Krsna was saying I should have sex with him?

Jayatirtha: So you have to see whether it is according to our principles.

Kanupriya: I'm asking you on a very practical... No. That is not what he said. He didn't say that. He said absolutely, and this is...

Upendra: Then you should listen to everything he said.

Kanupriya: I am. Because if I can judge then, if I can say, "Oh, at this point he is wrong," then that is what we are talking about, Srila Prabhupada. That is the issue. If they are absolutely right all the time and they can make no error, they wield absolute power over our lives.

Prabhupada: Where is (name witheld)? Where is (he)?

Satsvarupa: He is across the street.

Prabhupada: Has he said like that?

Kanupriya: Yes. I have witnesses.

Upendra: But he's admitted his error.

Kanupriya: That's beside the point.

Revatinandana: That's all right. But that's not the point here.

Upendra: The point is that Prabhupada, that if you come before Prabhupada for your own spiritual advancement, then it doesn't matter what other people are thinking...

Kanupriya: That's not the...

Jamadagni: That's not the crux of the matter at all.

Revatinandana: The point here is not to criticize (him).

Jamadagni: No. We did not come for that at all.

Revatinandana: That wasn't the reason. The point is that anyone, (name witheld) or anybody else, he may be a sannyasi, but if he's doing all kinds of nonsense, how can we say that he has absolute authority? Because he was in charge of the place, etc., and he is also in an authoritative position, yet he breaks the principles.

Kanupriya: His personal servant, when he came... His name is (name witheld). (He) instigated a homosexual affair with him. This boy came to surrender to Krsna and surrendered to (him). But (he) told him to do that.

Upendra: But Prabhupada...

Kanupriya: Wait. I am not speaking with you. He said he did that and he did it in the name of his authority as a sannyasa. So if you say, Prabhupada, that everything that they say is absolutely true, then they will have absolute power and can do anything that they want, and anything that they say and any opinion they express is taken to be the same as yours, then it becomes implied that you agree with and condone such things, because they do them with absolute license. And we don't believe that to be true. So we think it is some kind of mistake.

Prabhupada: They say like that?

Jamadagni: Everyone says like that.

Kanupriya: They do, Prabhupada.

Satsvarupa: No, they don't. Srila Prabhupada has said these things don't apply to you. Don't worry about them because you are not following the principles.

Jamadagni: But they do say, and we are following and you don't know what we're doing, Satsvarupa, because you haven't known me for two years. So you really don't know what I'm doing. You're not around.

Satsvarupa: But our society is going nicely. It's not...

Kanupriya: In some respects it's going fine. But these are problems which can be dealt with amongst us, and they are affecting all of us. And for some people these are problems though they may not be for you. I think, as far as I know, your conduct has always been very honorable. But for some people who it's not and where these misconceptions apply, it's a real problem and we're trying to deal with it because it affects our lives.

Upendra: The strength to deal with those problems comes from following sadhanacara.

Kanupriya: We are also attempting to follow sadhanacara. And if we are imperfect...

Prabhupada: Anyway, if he has said so, that is wrong.

Jamadagni: But is that then applying to everyone. Does someone who is in the adminis... (end)

 

© 1991 by Bhaktivedanta Book Trust

[Guruvani]

The cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is explained here very nicely. One who surrenders to Him and is ready to follow Him with heart and soul does not need to change his location. Nor is it necessary for one to change status. One may remain a householder, a medical practitioner, an engineer or whatever. It doesn't matter. One only has to follow the instruction of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and instruct relatives and friends in the teachings of the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam.

[Guruvani]

Prabhupada: So whatever I know I have explained in my books. Beyond that I have no knowledge.

[Guest guest]

 

Upendra: The strength to deal with those problems comes from following sadhanacara.

 

 

Upendra was really big on sadhanacara.

[Guruvani]

That conversation between Jamadagnya, Kanupriya, Srila Prabhupada and the others is just plain disturbing.

It really appears to show Srila Prabhupada in a bad way.

I have never seen anything which presents Srila Prabhupada as so angry and ungracious.

 

On the other hand he used the review of the meat-eater Dr. Stillson Judah in the introduction to his original edition of the Bhagavad-gita, so as long as you don't come to challenge or criticise Srila Prabhupada and show appreciation for what he has given, then he is very kind and gracious,

 

I still have some brass Gaura-Nitai deities that I bought off of Jamadagni at the Santa Cruz flea market.

He was selling out all his devotee paraphernalia and moving on to something else.

The deities were setting on a madras on the ground at the flea market and I bought them because I did not like seeing them there on the ground, even though I have never been able to worship them properly.

 

I think Jamadagnya and Kanupriya were as much casualites of a runaway GBC whose authority had gotten out of control, as they were their own offenses in the face of Srila Prabhupada.

 

It's a damn shame.

[Beggar]

Yeah, Jamadagni and Kanapriya were then what I've become now. I'm just good at faking it. But still, even in my present condition, I would back off when I saw Prabhupada's mood. Some devotees use that transcript to condemn those guys forever. The condemners should remember, what comes around goes around and judge not lest you be judged.

[Guest guest]

Endless repetition of the same old rants and raves that never give much other than disillusionment. Flip-floping from one boring perspective to another.

 

The art of speech is for the satisfaction of guru-vaisnava, and ones audience not the frustration such distasteful and disturbing exchanges reap.

 

Give it a break, learn to appreciate Hari Katha, coming from the well adjusted hearts of devotees who care about what they subject others to.

[Guruvani]

 

Endless repetition of the same old rants and raves that never give much other than disillusionment.

 

And the endless whining and complaining that follows it along with the arrogance of proposing to have attained perfect equilibrium by running around the world chasing the vapuvada of some embodied sadhu who claims to have all the answers.

[theist]

Their questions were/are important ones but they should not have persisted once they saw Srila Prabhupada's mood.

 

Personally I don't accept for one second that King Ugrasena had 4 billion bodyguards so I just take "other portion". I also don't accept that if one thing is wrong in the Bhagavatam that cancels out the rest.

[Guruvani]

 

Their questions were/are important ones but they should not have persisted once they saw Srila Prabhupada's mood.

 

Personally I don't accept for one second that King Ugrasena had 4 billion bodyguards so I just take "other portion". I also don't accept that if one thing is wrong in the Bhagavatam that cancels out the rest.

I Think the four billion bodyguards were more than likely Gandharva warriors from higher planets who lived in subtle bodies not observable to the naked eye.

There were astral warriors who defended the King on a plane that we cannot understand with our limited concepts.

[Guest guest]

 

Room Conversation

 

Los Angeles, June 26, 1975

 

Prabhupada: You are not authorized.

Jamadagni: Well, who is authorized?

Prabhupada: The authorized... You are not authorized. Who is authorized, that is not your business.

Kanupriya: Then what does it mean to become disciple?

Prabhupada: Disciple, if you don't like, give it up.

Kanupriya: We do like it.

Prabhupada: You have already given up.

Kanupriya: If we didn't like it, we would not come here.

Prabhupada: No, no. You have already given up. My disciples do not keep so many hair.

Kanupriya: Many of your disciples do.

Prabhupada: No. I don't accept that. You just this one circle, little. But those who are keeping big hairs, they are rejected from my disciples.

 

© 1991 by Bhaktivedanta Book Trust

 

Everyone should take the teachings of Srila Prabhupada "AS IT IS" and not change or concoct our own ideas about what is right or wrong. What Prabhupada says is right. If you doubt Srila Prabhupada you are offensive like Kanapriya and Jamadagnya.

 

 

Prabhupada: I want a glass of water, and if my servant gives me a glass of hot milk, is that worship? Worship means what I want, if you give me, then I am satisfied. But if I want a cold glass of water, you give me..., if you think, "No. Milk is better than water," so that, will that satisfy me? So these concocted ideas of worshiping will actually satisfy God, that is wrong theory, that one can worship God according to his own dictation.

 

Prabhupada knows what is best.

[Beggar]

 

Everyone should take the teachings of Srila Prabhupada "AS IT IS" and not change or concoct our own ideas about what is right or wrong. What Prabhupada says is right. If you doubt Srila Prabhupada you are offensive like Kanapriya and Jamadagnya.

 

I knew both Kanapriya and Jamadagni and I knew them both years later. Yes, I believe that they both became offensive individuals. But I don't see them as revealing this through their words to Prabhupada in this conversation. It wasn't really what they said to Prabhupada, it was their underlying attitude.

And Prabhupada could see right through their facade and even see into their futures. I see Srila Prabhupada as challenging them to surrender. Even if they didn't surrender then or even now there is always the future, even in another body. Otherwise what hope is there for any of us?

[theist]

 

I Think the four billion bodyguards were more than likely Gandharva warriors from higher planets who lived in subtle bodies not observable to the naked eye.

There were astral warriors who defended the King on a plane that we cannot understand with our limited concepts.

 

Well that may be but it is not the way it is presented.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

And the endless whining and complaining that follows it along with the arrogance of proposing to have attained perfect equilibrium by running around the world chasing the vapuvada of some embodied sadhu who claims to have all the answers.

Everything is in the sastra, Prabhupada's books, but if it just so happens that there is an embodied sadhu who has complete faith in guru, sastra and sadhu then one should be anxious to get the association of such a person. You become like those you associate with. Good association is the key to Krsna Consciousness. Just reading is not enough. On the other hand if one is getting in the physical proximity of a sadhu with a heart full of duplicity, yearning for name and fame, what good is it? Just because something extremely precious and holy can be abused doesn't mean it should be rejected. Guruvani's attitude is to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Then when he is discovered, he will endlessly justify himself. The rtvik philosophy is the rope if given enough of, we can spiritually hang ourselves.

[Beggar]

Mr. Guruvani and Mr. Shakti fan, what gives gentlemen? Are you guys going to argue this till your 90 yrs. old? (if you live that long). You're both in it for the ego rush. Hey, I've got an idea, instead of debating rtvik on the internet why don't you both sit down to a game of chess. If you don't know how to play its not that hard to learn. Then the winner can buy the loser a veggie meal. Why not? Let us know how it turns out.

[Guest guest]

Hey, I've got an idea, instead of debating rtvik on the internet why don't you both sit down to a game of chess.

 

Great idea!

 

There's a wonderful chess site called FICS (Free Internet Chess Server.) You get a real chess rating and you can play slow chess, speed chess, and different variations. Yes, I play there on occasion. You can play as a guest, or play as a registered (free) member.

 

I've seen some devotee names logged on there. I sometimes wonder if they are from this site.

 

Anyway, maybe some of us can get together and slug it out there.

[Beggar]

The way I see it is that Prabhupada knew what Krsna wanted him to know, when he wanted him to know it. There was another side of Prabhupada that was extremely insightful into the character of those around him. He knew who he could engage in helping him spread the Krsna Conciousness Movement. He also knew who would give him problems. Kirtanananda helped Prabhupada in the beginning, then gave him some trouble, then helped again --then big trouble. Prabhupada must have known that Kirtanananda could have gone either way (Yeah, yeah I see you smiling-- I don't mean AC/DC or do I?). Just like all of us can go towards Krsna or away from Krsna. Also you could certainly say that Prabhupada knew that Jamadagni and Kanapriya had at least latent offensive tendencies. They certainly expressed those tendencies in the conversation with Prabhupada. Theres more to it that we didn't see in the words like their tone of voice and body language. I'm sure that Prabhupada saw certain latent tendencies in Kirtanananda but he was hoping that Kirtanananda would take seriously the process and be purified. He wanted that all of us would take to Krsna Consciousness seriously and be purified and he still does. And he's still our "Ever well wisher".

[Guruvani]

 

Everything is in the sastra, Prabhupada's books, but if it just so happens that there is an embodied sadhu who has complete faith in guru, sastra and sadhu then one should be anxious to get the association of such a person.

 

 

That's exactly my point.

You hit the nail on the head.

You see, I see hundreds and thousands of sadhus all over the world and hundreds of them here in my home town area.

I don't just see one bearded old sannyasi as the only sadhu sanga available.

I think the sadhu sanga of the disciples of Srila Prabhupada is sadhu sanga par-excellance.

I don't just see sadhu sanga in the old Indian "Swamis" that have some Matha or establishment.

If I wanted sadhu sanga I could go to any ISKCON temple where devotees give classes on the books of Srila Prabhupada and I don't think there is any better sadhu sanga than that.

 

So, I don't need to chase some old sannyasi around the world trying to get sadhu sanga, because by the mercy of Srila Prabhupada the sadhu sanga is readily available in most all the major cities of the world and even in small obscure places like Alachua, Florida.

 

I don't place any special importance on "THE SADHU" that so many people are hyping, because I think the sadhu sanga of the disciples of Srila Prabhupada is just as good or even better in alot of cases.

 

Hellsfire, even the cook at Krishna-Balaram mandir, old Bhuvaneshvar prabhu is excellant sadhu-sanga.

I don't exclude all the nice devotees that Srila Prabhupada made from the category of sadhu sanga in favor of an old outspoken indian Swami.

 

Those devotees who gave their lives to serve Srila Prabhupada are the best sadhus that I know of.

They did more than give lip service to Srila Prabhupada.

They gave their lives and many times all their worldy possessions to Srila Prabhupada.

 

If I wanted sadhu sanga there are many options and possibilities.

I don't limit the idea of sadhu sanga to Narayana Maharaja or Govinda Maharaja or any of the other Indian Swamis that are getting in on the action of a disintegrating ISKCON.

 

Thanks to Srila Prabhupada there are embodied sadhus all over the world.

I regret missing them all, not just the old Indian Swamis that so many people are going gahgah over.

[Guest guest]

I agree that they should give it a rest but I'd just like to point out that Shakti-fan is quoting from Sastra and the teachings of other current great Acaryas and not mindlessly speculating.

 

 

Mr. Guruvani and Mr. Shakti fan, what gives gentlemen? Are you guys going to argue this till your 90 yrs. old? (if you live that long). You're both in it for the ego rush. Hey, I've got an idea, instead of debating rtvik on the internet why don't you both sit down to a game of chess. If you don't know how to play its not that hard to learn. Then the winner can buy the loser a veggie meal. Why not? Let us know how it turns out.

[Guruvani]

 

I agree that they should give it a rest but I'd just like to point out that Shakti-fan is quoting from Sastra and the teachings of other current great Acaryas and not mindlessly speculating.

 

I could just as well say that all the promotion of "traditional" parampara amongst a cult of reformed (supposedly) derelicts who have been falling down right and left since the passing of Srila Prabhupada is MINDLESS.

 

It obviously is, as there are thousands of victims of these MINDLESS gurus all over the world to testify that the ISKCON guru system has failed, is failing and will fail indefinitely as long as neophyte devotees attempt to artificically ascend to the platform of being more important than God himself.

 

The Gaudiya tradition is that devotees of the topmost platform have done the work of diksha guru.

 

This new fad of becoming guru even though one is just a neophyte struggling with a conditoned mind has nothing to do with the Gaudiya tradition.

The Gaudiya tradition is not a heritage of cheaters and the cheated.

But, that is what the GBC guru system is promoting today.

 

There is no shastric injunction against a ritvik system.

In fact the authority and power that shastra gives to the great acharyas is well within the range of establishing a ritvik system.

 

The ritvik system is inherint in the Bhagavat culture, as all gurus in the Gaudiya line are supposed to have the seat of Vyasadeva: the Vyasasan.

 

All gurus in the Gaudiya line are simply representatives of Vyasadeva.

That is why THE BIG SEAT is called the "VYASASANA".

 

All the gurus and acharyas are simply ritviks of Vyasadeva.

So, the idea of being a ritvik of Srila Prabhupada is very much in line with the Bhagavat siddhanta.

 

The post-samadhi history of ISKCON is all the proof we need that the ritvik system was authorized and essential for the upkeep of ISKCON.

 

Chanting the Holy Name is the Yuga-Dharma.

It's everyone's God given right to chant the Holy Name. Mahaprabhu gave the authority for everyone to chant the Holy Name.

You don't need "initiation" into the Holy Name.

You just need to hear it from any devotee of the Krishna consciousness movement and you have already been initiated.

 

The Maha-mantra is above all other mantras and all other Vedic mantras are contained within the Maha-mantra.

The Gayatri mantras are contained within the Maha-mantra.

Chanting the Maha-mantra already includes whatever is contained within the Gayatri mantras.

 

For the most part, the so-called "diksha" that is going on all over the world now is just an international fraud that has no genuine spiritual significance.

It's a cheap imitation of the real thing.

It's not "diksha" as is known in the shastra.

[Guest guest]

I couldn't care less if the ISKCON guru system is the best or worst.

 

What I'm saying is simple ... The parampara doesn't end with Srila Prabhupada, as the ritviks claim. It doesn't take much to understand this. Give it a shot.

 

 

I could just as well say that all the promotion of "traditional" parampara amongst a cult of reformed (supposedly) derelicts who have been falling down right and left since the passing of Srila Prabhupada is MINDLESS.

 

It obviously is, as there are thousands of victims of these MINDLESS gurus all over the world to testify that the ISKCON guru system has failed, is failing and will fail indefinitely as long as neophyte devotees attempt to artificically ascend to the platform of being more important than God himself.

 

The Gaudiya tradition is that devotees of the topmost platform have done the work of diksha guru.

 

This new fad of becoming guru even though one is just a neophyte struggling with a conditoned mind has nothing to do with the Gaudiya tradition.

The Gaudiya tradition is not a heritage of cheaters and the cheated.

But, that is what the GBC guru system is promoting today.

 

There is no shastric injunction against a ritvik system.

In fact the authority and power that shastra gives to the great acharyas is well within the range of establishing a ritvik system.

 

The ritvik system is inherint in the Bhagavat culture, as all gurus in the Gaudiya line are supposed to have the seat of Vyasadeva: the Vyasasan.

 

All gurus in the Gaudiya line are simply representatives of Vyasadeva.

That is why THE BIG SEAT is called the "VYASASANA".

 

All the gurus and acharyas are simply ritviks of Vyasadeva.

So, the idea of being a ritvik of Srila Prabhupada is very much in line with the Bhagavat siddhanta.

 

The post-samadhi history of ISKCON is all the proof we need that the ritvik system was authorized and essential for the upkeep of ISKCON.

 

Chanting the Holy Name is the Yuga-Dharma.

It's everyone's God given right to chant the Holy Name. Mahaprabhu gave the authority for everyone to chant the Holy Name.

You don't need "initiation" into the Holy Name.

You just need to hear it from any devotee of the Krishna consciousness movement and you have already been initiated.

 

The Maha-mantra is above all other mantras and all other Vedic mantras are contained within the Maha-mantra.

The Gayatri mantras are contained within the Maha-mantra.

Chanting the Maha-mantra already includes whatever is contained within the Gayatri mantras.

 

For the most part, the so-called "diksha" that is going on all over the world now is just an international fraud that has no genuine spiritual significance.

It's a cheap imitation of the real thing.

It's not "diksha" as is known in the shastra.