A Verse from Mandukya

[Guest guest]

Dear Advaitins,

 

Namaste,

 

I was going through Mandukya Unpanishad, said to be one of the

finest and alone by itself capable to give the real nature of the

self to the sadhaka. Swami Paramarthanandaji and Vidyatheeratha

Mahaswamigal both have quoted from Muktikopanishad that first

Mandukya upanishad has to be read then if the aspirant is unable to

assimilate the real truth then he has to read 10 upanishads and

still he is not successful he has to read 32 upanishads which shows

the importance given to the upanishad.

 

There is a famous verse in the upanishad on which both Shankara and

Gaudapadacharya gives detailed explanation. It runs as under.

 

VII Turiya is not that which is conscious of the inner (subjective)

world, nor that which is conscious of the outer (objective) world,

nor that which is conscious of both, nor that which is a mass of

consciousness. It is not simple consciousness nor is It

unconsciousness. It is unperceived, unrelated, incomprehensible,

uninferable, unthinkable and indescribable. The essence of the

Consciousness manifesting as the self in the three states, It is the

cessation of all phenomena; It is all peace, all bliss and non—dual.

This is what is known as the Fourth (Turiya). This is Atman and this

has to be realized.

 

(Unquote)

 

It is said that it is not an exclusive forth state but a state which

is immenant in all the there states ie, waking, dream and deep sleep.

 

We can say that the turiya both transcends as well as immenant in

the three states.

 

It is argued in some circles that the search for the fourth state is

futile.

 

The question is, the three states cannot exist

obviously 'idependent' of the turiya or transcendental

conscsiousness which is the very substratum of these which is both

efficient and the material cause. But is there not a 'state' bereft

of association from the three states in which consciousness shines

in its prestine purity? Is it right to say that to aspire for such a

state is a serious misconception?

 

In my humble understanding the turiya is the goal which 'alone' can

give us emancipation and the moment some association with the

phenominal world arises there comes misery and limitation.

 

Paramarthanandaji traslates 'simple consciousness' or prajna

referred in the sloka as the Ishwara bhava and very aptly says that

even lordship is a kind of limitation and misery in the truest sense

of the term.

 

Hope to get some viws on the learned members of the group.

 

Yours in Sri Ramakrishna,

 

Br. Vinayaka

[Guest guest]

Vinayaka <vinayaka_ns > wrote:

 

 

It is said that it is not an exclusive forth state but a state which

is immenant in all the there states ie, waking, dream and deep sleep.

 

We can say that the turiya both transcends as well as immenant in

the three states.

 

It is argued in some circles that the search for the fourth state is

futile.

 

The question is, the three states cannot exist

obviously 'idependent' of the turiya or transcendental

conscsiousness which is the very substratum of these which is both

efficient and the material cause. But is there not a 'state' bereft

of association from the three states in which consciousness shines

in its prestine purity? Is it right to say that to aspire for such a

state is a serious misconception?

 

In my humble understanding the turiya is the goal which 'alone' can

give us emancipation and the moment some association with the

phenominal world arises there comes misery and limitation.

 

Paramarthanandaji traslates 'simple consciousness' or prajna

referred in the sloka as the Ishwara bhava and very aptly says that

even lordship is a kind of limitation and misery in the truest sense

of the term.

 

Dear Vinayaka,

I can answer your question only indirectly by quoting from the talks of Bhaghavan. When someone asks Bhaghavn the question regarding how long one should do the vichara, Bhaghavan replies that till the triputi disappears one should do the enquiry. It is only the intellectual dilettantes who hold such fanciful ideas that the search for the fourth state is futile as if they understood the truth that there is only one truth. In a similar strain they say that Nirvikalpa Samdhi is inferior, all these ideas being based on bookish knowledge.

with regards

Sankarraman

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

But is there not a 'state' bereft of association from the three states in

which consciousness shines

in its prestine purity? Is it right to say that to aspire for such a state

is a serious misconception?the turiya is the goal which 'alone' can give us

emancipation and the moment some association with the phenominal world

arises there comes misery and limitation.

 

praNAms Sri Vinayaka prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

I do agree that brahmAnubhava / Atma jnAna/ultimate knowledge of one's own

self (svarUpa jnAna) is the goal of every spiritual aspirant & which

*alone* can give us eternal emacipation from the saMsAra...But it is also

important to note that this turIya is not restricted to any peculiar state

(avasTha) specific experience of some individual which is bereft of other

three normal states...Examination of three states (avasthAtraya vivEka)

from the standpoint of the sAkshi chaitanya (witnessing consciousness)

itself reveals the fact that the three phenomena of waking, dream and deep

sleep have occured (or are occuring) is itself a delusory dream!! Hence,

shruti says Atman has three states and all the three states are dreams

(tasya traya avasathA trayI svapnAH - AitarEya shruti )....& bhagavadpAd

himself clarifies this view point & says that Atma jnAna is not some

special avasTha (avasTha vishEsha) since any avasthA is subject to change

within the frame of time & space!!! Hence, it can be said that

AtmajnAna is not like turIyAvasTha which most of the people believe that

it can be had/experienced through some intensive meditation in mind blank

state on a particular date & time. jnAni after the dawn of ultimate

knowledge realizes intuitively that he was/is/will be brahman always &

never bound by limited adjuncts (upAdhi-s) and gets a sublated knowledge

(bhAdita jnAna) about the phenomenal world. samaM sarvEshu bhutEshu

tishTantaM paramEshwaraM, samaM pashyanhi sarvatra samavasThita IshwaraM

etc. etc. says Lord in gIta which emphasizes the jnAni's cosmic /equal

vision (saMyag drushti) ...

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

Hence, it can be said that

> AtmajnAna is not like turIyAvasTha which most of the people

believe that

> it can be had/experienced through some intensive meditation in

mind blank

> state on a particular date & time. samaM sarvEshu bhutEshu

> tishTantaM paramEshwaraM, samaM pashyanhi sarvatra samavasThita

IshwaraM

> etc. etc. says Lord in gIta which emphasizes the jnAni's

cosmic /equal

> vision (saMyag drushti) ...

>

> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

 

Dear Bhaskarji,

 

Excellent explanation. If this is not culmination of advaita sadhana

i do not know what it is. But let me highlight some points. You have

said

 

jnAni after the 'dawn' of ultimate

> knowledge realizes 'intuitively' that he was/is/will be brahman

always &

> never bound by limited adjuncts (upAdhi-s) and gets a 'sublated

knowledge

> (bhAdita jnAna)' about the phenomenal world.

 

Perfectly agreed this is the hallmark of advaita and advaita alone

and this is what is called 'realisation of the ultimate' or total

eradication of falsehood or Advaita Siddhi of an accomplished jnani.

This is what is called jivan mukti freedom even while living.

 

But my differences are only with those people, with due respect

who 'emphatically say'----There is no 'intution' we believe only

in 'tution'. There is no 'dawn' and 'dusk' of knowledge :-) and

there is no thing called realisation!

 

Hope i have made my stand clear.......

 

Yours in Sri Ramakrishna,

 

Br. Vinayaka

[Guest guest]

advaitin, bhaskar.yr wrote:

 

> praNAms Sri Vinayaka prabhuji

> Hare Krishna

>

> I do agree that brahmAnubhava / Atma jnAna/ultimate knowledge of

one's own

> self (svarUpa jnAna) is the goal of every spiritual aspirant &

which

> *alone* can give us eternal emacipation from the saMsAra...But it

is also

> important to note that this turIya is not restricted to any

peculiar state

> (avasTha) specific experience of some individual which is bereft

of other

> three normal states...Examination of three states (avasthAtraya

vivEka)

> from the standpoint of the sAkshi chaitanya (witnessing

consciousness)

> itself reveals the fact that the three phenomena of waking, dream

and deep

> sleep have occured (or are occuring) is itself a delusory

dream!!

 

Following is the Swami Vivekananda's explanation of the point

mentioned by you.

 

 

---------

Two questions now arise. The first is: "Is it possible to realise

this? So far it is doctrine, philosophy, but is it possible to

realise it?" It is. There are men still living in this world for

whom delusion has vanished for ever. Do they immediately die after

such realisation? Not so soon as we should think. Two wheels joined

by one pole are running together. If I get hold of one of the wheels

and, with an axe, cut the pole asunder, the wheel which I have got

hold of stops, but upon the other wheel is its past momentum, so it

runs on a little and then falls down.

 

 

This pure and perfect being, the soul, is one wheel, and

this external hallucination of body and mind is the other wheel,

joined together by the pole of work, of Karma. Knowledge is the axe

which will sever the bond between the two, and the wheel of the soul

will stop -- stop thinking that it is coming and going, living and

dying, stop thinking that it is nature and has wants and desires,

and will find that it is perfect, desireless. But upon the other

wheel, that of the body and mind, will be the momentum of past acts;

so it will live for some time, until that momentum of past work is

exhausted, until that momentum is worked away, and then the body and

mind fall, and the soul becomes free. No more is there any going to

heaven and coming back, not even any going to the Brahmaloka, or to

any of the highest of the spheres, for where is he to come from, or

to go to? The man who has in this life attained to this state, for

whom, for a minute at least, the ordinary vision of the world has

changed and the reality has been apparent, he is called the "Living

Free". This is the goal of the Vedantin, to attain freedom while

living.

 

Once in Western India I was travelling in the desert

country on the coast of the Indian Ocean. For days and days I used

to travel on foot through the desert, but it was to my surprise that

I saw every day beautiful lakes, with trees all around them, and the

shadows of the trees upside down and vibrating there. "How wonderful

it looks and they call this a desert country!" I said to myself.

Nearly a month I travelled, seeing these wonderful lakes and trees

and plants. One day I was very thirsty and wanted to have a drink of

water, so I started to go to one of these clear, beautiful lakes,

and as I approached, it vanished. And with a flash it came to my

brain, "This is the mirage about which I have read all my life," and

with that came also the idea that throughout the whole of this

month, every day, I had been seeing the mirage and did not know it.

The next morning I began my march. There was again the lake, but

with it came also the idea that it was the mirage and not a true

lake. So is it with this universe.

 

We are all travelling in this mirage of the world day after day,

month after month, year after year, not knowing that it is a mirage.

One day it will break up, but it will come back again; the body has

to remain under the power of past Karma, and so the mirage will come

back. This world will come back upon us so long as we are bound by

Karma: men, women, animals, plants, our attachments and duties, all

will come back to us, but not with the same power. Under the

influence of the new knowledge the strength of Karma will be broken,

its poison will be lost. It becomes transformed, for along with it

there comes the idea that we know it now, that the sharp distinction

between the reality and the mirage has been known.

 

This world will not then be the same world as before.

 

This was told in the lecture 'Real and the Apparant Man' which comes

in Jnana Yoga.

[Guest guest]

But my differences are only with those people, with due respect

who 'emphatically say'----There is no 'intution' we believe only

in 'tution'. There is no 'dawn' and 'dusk' of knowledge :-) and

there is no thing called realisation!

 

praNAms Sri Vinayaka prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

So, you have the differences with gaudapAda & shankara :-)) coz.

gaudapAdAchArya declares there is no aspirant, no bondage, no realization

etc. Ofcourse this is the ultimate reality...you know, you cannot have

differences with *ultimate reality!! can you prabhuji?? and shankara in

adhyAsa bhAshya categorically say bondage - realization business only in

vyavahAra...So, nobody say in vyavahAra there is no use of sAdhana in the

path of jnAna...and further nobody would argue *shravaNa* is mere

tuition...In upadEsha sAhasri shankara beautifully explains what

*intuition* is, The witnessing self (sAkshi chEtaH) would be intuited by

itself of the nature of intuition. This intuition cannot be a one time,

time bound temporary experience, nor we can say it is an event in a

particular point of time & lasted till some time etc. Because, the jnAni

who realized the ultimate, knows that the entangled sould which is found in

the body now, was/is/will be brahman itself. Shankara makes it clear in

the bruhadAraNyaka bhAshya that *even* before the enlightenment the

socalled jIva is brahman itself. & Only without enlightenment it

superimposed upon itself that I am not brahman, nor am I the whole etc..So

there is no *time* a jIva is baddha, he is brahman always..so under these

circumstances how can we say there is a *rise* & *fall* of brahma jnAna???

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

praNAms Sri Vinayaka prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

Thanks a lot for sharing this excerpts from swamiji's jnAna yOga book...I

have the Kannada translation of this book with me. The world is both real

& unreal (tattvAnatvAbhyaM) says shankara in sutra bhAshya...Our prof. VK

prabhuji explains in 3 different steps why this world is unreal. First one

is rope-snake analogy, the analogy that we are discussing in the adhyAsa

topic. Second one is just you have quoted a mirage on dry surface & third

one is dreams.

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

advaitin, bhaskar.yr wrote:

>

>

> But my differences are only with those people, with due respect

> who 'emphatically say'----There is no 'intution' we believe only

> in 'tution'. There is no 'dawn' and 'dusk' of knowledge :-) and

> there is no thing called realisation!

>

> praNAms Sri Vinayaka prabhuji

> Hare Krishna

>

> So, you have the differences with gaudapAda & shankara :-)) coz.

> gaudapAdAchArya declares there is no aspirant, no bondage, no

realization

> etc. Ofcourse this is the ultimate reality...you know, you cannot

have

> differences with *ultimate reality!! can you prabhuji?? and

shankara in

> adhyAsa bhAshya categorically say bondage - realization business

only in

> vyavahAra...So, nobody say in vyavahAra there is no use of sAdhana

in the

> path of jnAna...and further nobody would argue *shravaNa* is mere

> tuition...In upadEsha sAhasri shankara beautifully explains what

> *intuition* is, The witnessing self (sAkshi chEtaH) would be

intuited by

> itself of the nature of intuition. This intuition cannot be a one

time,

> time bound temporary experience, nor we can say it is an event in a

> particular point of time & lasted till some time etc.

 

Dear Prabhuji,

 

My perspective is:

 

There was 'no time' when there was 'no creation' but to realise this

we take so much 'time'

 

Let us proceed to other points since it is taking too much

of 'time'.......... :-))

 

Yours in Sri Ramakrishna,

 

Br. Vinayaka

[Guest guest]

advaitin, bhaskar.yr wrote:

In upadEsha sAhasri shankara beautifully explains what

> *intuition* is, The witnessing self (sAkshi chEtaH) would be

intuited by

> itself of the nature of intuition. This intuition cannot be a one

time,

> time bound temporary experience, nor we can say it is an event in a

> particular point of time

 

Dear Sir,

 

The dictionary mean of the word intution is as under:

 

(knowledge obtained from) an ability to understand or know something

immediately without needing to think about it, learn it or discover

it by using reason:

Often there's no clear evidence one way or the other and you just

have to base your judgement on intuition. (Cambridge)

 

Intuted is to know, sense, or understand by intuition( Merriam

Webster)

 

Now whether knowledge is gained by intution or reasoning there is a

presupposed condition that there was 'no knowledge' before intution

or reasoned out understanding.

 

Here you are referring to witnessing self. Can you kindly explain

what do you mean by The witnessing self (sAkshi chEtaH) would be

intuited by itself of the nature of intuition. Do you mean to say

that witnessing self lost its awareness somehow and regained its

awareness by intution?

 

If a knowledge is gained by intution why dont you accept that that

also happens in time.

 

There is a deep meaning in the words of Sri Ramachandranji. It is

quite obvious, even the sacred words of shruti mata are incapable of

conveying the correct meaning of the atman and the moment anything

is uttered there comes limitation and we cannot help it. That is why

the most popular definition of atamn is NETI NETI....

 

Yours in Sri Ramakrishna,

 

Br. Vinayaka