Guest guest Posted January 8, 2007 Report Share Posted January 8, 2007 If we wish to use a minimum of words, we might write, all things are OneThing. There is no otherness, no separateness. Peace in The Oneness, Yosh >kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada > >advaitin >advaitin >CC: vasu <akvdeva (AT) aol (DOT) com> > Introduction to Vedanta-1 >Mon, 8 Jan 2007 06:49:23 -0800 (PST) > > Introduction to Vedanta-1 > >I will present my understanding of what is Vedanta and/or why is it >important to know Vedanta. >This presentation is supposed to be for a freshman in the Vedantic study >with minimum of Sanskrit >words needed to understand the concept. We recognize, however, that we >have to use some Sanskrit >words to bring out the full impact of the terms that are defined. Typical >example is the word >‘vaasana’ which is more a technical word with no appropriate equivalent >word in English. One can >say vaasanas manifest as ‘likes and dislikes’ both at individual level and >at collective level. >Thus we have individual vaasanas as well as collective vaasanas that propel >to act the way we act, >individually or collectively. Another Sanskrit word is ‘maaya’, which is >poorly translated as >‘illusion’. It can be considered as that ‘power’ because of which one >appears to be many or one >becomes many. While more of these terms will be introduced as we proceed >further, the point is I >would like to make is that there are many technical words in Vedanta that >one should familiarize >one self early in the game, if one wants to understand and participate in >the Vedantic >discussions. Like many of these things, it is not essential that one >should understand all these >terms to know Vedanta, but it will be helpful. It is not really a big >deal, since we do use many >technical or mathematical terms without fully appreciating their >significance. For example, we >learn the symbolic language of mathematics in the early schooling without >questioning their >meaning or validity. We use two parallel lines signifying an equal sign, >symbolizing an equality >of what is on the left hand side with that on the right hand side of the >equation. Symbolically >the equal sign establishes a relation between two the sides of the >equation. Later we learn in >mathematics that a symbol of three parallel lines is used to establish an >identity equation that >is to declare what is on left side of the equation to be identically equal >to the one on the right >side of the equation. No, I am not writing on mathematics, but want to lead >you to simple but >profound statements of the Vedanta that establishes some relations; not >relations establishing >equality, but statements confirming identity-relationships. The first one >(equal sign) provides a >relation of two entities that appear to be different. The second one >(identity equation) provides >a relation (in fact, a relationless relation) of two entities that appear >to be different, but, in >truth, are one and the same. Vedanta zeros in on the second aspect. > >Before I discuss about the above aspects, I want to identity those who are >the beginners to >Vedantic study, since this writing is intended for them. A serious study >of any subject would >require a student to have met some prerequisites. Vedantic study is no >exception. Shankara >defines these requirements as ‘The four-fold qualifications’ – collectively >called as 4-Ds: 1. >Discrimination of what is eternal and what is ephemeral, 2. Dispassion to >reject that which is >ephemeral to gain that which is eternal, 3. Discipline of the mind to >divert it from trivial or >ephemeral pursuits in life to conserve the energy to pursue that which is >eternal, and finally 4. >Desire strong enough to motivate oneself in that pursuit without getting >discouraged by any type >of obstacles that arise. They are somewhat interrelated with each one >reinforcing the other. >Hence, from Shankara’s point, if one does not have these four-fold >qualifications, he has not >prepared his mind, to own the knowledge of Vedanta. The mind that has >acquired these four-fold >qualifications is the ‘pure’ mind that is ready to take off when the >Vedantic teaching is imparted >by a competent teacher. The discipline of the mind (the third D above) >involves six basic >disciplines of the mind for uncompromising commitment for the study – most >important among them is >a full faith in the import of Vedanta, as explained by the teacher. Each >word and idea in this >paragraph is important and elaborate discussion of these is available in >text like >VivEkachUDAmaNi; but we can discuss those here on the need basis. > >Hence a beginner for Vedantic study is the one who has acquired the >four-fold qualifications for >the study. If one has the pre-requisites, then the study will be fruitful. >I will address some of >the misconceptions of the Vedantic study later, but suffice here to say >that if one experiences >that the Vedantic study has not been fruitful, it is not the fault of >Vedanta but it only >signifies that the prerequisites have not been met adequately. Next >question that arises then is, >should one study Vedanta without these pre-requisites. Vedanta itself >address that issue saying >that one has to listen to Vedanta from a competent teacher (shravaNam) and >reflect on it until all >doubts are fully resolved (mananam) and contemplate on it until the >teaching of Vedanta is >assimilated fully and completely (nidhidhyaasanam). Listening to the >teacher is sufficient if one >has all the pre-requisites. For those who do not have the prerequisites, >the other two are >required until that conviction takes place in the mind; a conviction that >what Vedanta says is >indeed true to the letter. To illustrate this point, we can remind >ourselves the story of our >friend, Mr. Jones and the rat. Mr. Jones got a feeling that he is rat and >not a man. Do not ask >me when that feeling started for Mr. Jones. As for as we are concerned, it >is from the beginning. >So Mr. Jones used to hide in a closet whenever he sees a cat, since he is >rat and that he needs to >protect himself from that terrible looking cat. Mrs. Jones saw this and >somehow recognizing his >problem, took him to a psychologist who tried to convince Mr. Jones that he >is indeed a man since >in his full glory he is identically equal to a man and not a rat. After >many hours of sitting for >a prolonged length of time with his psychologist, Mr. Jones understood that >he is indeed a man and >not a rat that he thought he was. With that clear understanding he >returned home to discover to >his horror that there was that terrible cat still sitting there and waiting >for him. He rushed >back to the doctor in a hurry and asked the doctor; “Sir, I know I am man >and not a rat, but does >that cat know that I am man and not a rat?” –We may laugh at this but our >situation is not much >different from Mr. Jones, as we see this later. What Mr. Jones needs to >understand is about his >true identity, not just ‘as a thought’ but ‘as a fact’ that he is always a >man and never a rat, >even when he thought he was a rat. Shankara says with adequate >pre-requisites of the four-fold >qualifications, the Vedantic teaching from a competent teacher would become >immediately fruitful. >Otherwise, one has to develop that clarity of understanding through >constant reflection and >contemplation on the teaching until it is assimilated, or what Bhagavaan >Ramana calls as firm >abidance in that knowledge. > >What constitutes clear understanding of Vedanta? We will discuss this more >extensively little bit >latter, but here it is suffice to know that it involves two essential >aspects: One is a clear >understanding of the INDENTITY relations or relationless relationships >called mahavaakyas or great >aphorisms, and the second is to realize that nothing else is required other >than the clear >understanding of the identity relations. The significance of these two >aspects will become >apparent when we discuss the identity relations, and their implications. >From Mr. Jones and the >rat story, we have clear understanding of what clear understanding means. > >If we do not have clear understanding of Vedanta, it only means either we >do not have proper >exposure to Vedantic study (with the emphasis on proper), or our minds are >not adequately prepared >and therefore saadhana is required to purify the mind for the teaching to >sink in. Hence from the >point of Vedantic study, most of us are beginner-students requiring >listening, reflecting and >contemplating on the teaching. The purpose of the advaitin list serve is >exactly to accomplish >that – hence it is intended for all the beginners only who are trying to >get a clear understanding >of the Vedantic teaching. For the silent majority – there is no silent >teaching or learning in any >field of study, including Vedanta. Only way to clarify one’s understanding >is through discussions >and by raising questions. > >Of course, the intent of this writing as per our Chief Moderator, is to >address to those who have >not been extensively exposed to Vedantic study. If one has the four fold >qualifications, then >Vedanta declares that such a student will be lead to an appropriate teacher >needed for his >evolution. Now we can ask ourselves if we have those four-fold >qualifications or not, and who is >going to evaluate if we have them to qualify us to study Vedanta? In olden >days, the teacher >normally used to observe the students individually for a prolonged length >of time and determine >who is qualified and who is not. In modern days we do not have such system >of teaching. A >student has to develop these qualifications through association with the >company of good and by >following karma, bhakti and jnaana yogas. These aspects are extensively >discussed in Bhagavad >Gita as preparatory for Brahma vidya or Vedantic study. Not all minds are >ready for such kind of >study. Krishna gives out statistics in Gita – of thousands of people, very >few are interested in >this study and of those who are interested only few have the commitment to >study and of those very >few have the commitment to pursue till they realizes that identity >emphasized in Vedanta. >However, once one is exposed to Vedantic teaching, there is no fall back in >the sense that the >teaching will start to germinate slowly but studiedly once the mind is >purified through normal >life’s trifles. Krishna says, even if one dies in the Vedantic pursuit, he >will be born in the >next life in a conducive environment for his rapid growth. It also means >that our preparations >will never go waste and we do not have to redo all over in the next life. >It is a continuous >evolution. Examination of the life stories of some great souls indicates >that they took off >rapidly without any preparatory discipline required. All that means they >have already done all >those preparations in the past life or lives. Hence nothing will be wasted >as per the law of >action and result. It also means nothing is given free; one has to work for >it. This is true for >any field of study, and so is true for Vedantic study too. > >Shankara says, to be born as human being is very rare indeed when there are >billions of life forms >available for birth. Having been born as human being, the desire for >liberation is very rear >indeed, as emphasized by Krishna’s teaching. Finally, getting exposed to >teaching of Vedanta >through the association of great masters is even very rare indeed. In that >sense, we are blessed >indeed to have that opportunity to learn and those who can avail this >opportunities are blessed >indeed. > >With this sense of optimism, let us begin our study of Vedanta. > >--------- >A note to the other beginners: >I am formulating as it comes and how it is going to shape up with each post >will depend on the >feed back from you. I have no claims of the authorship since it is an >eternal teaching that is >flowing from the beginning-less time. You can raise the issues by way of >asking, but if you can >give me some freedom, all the questions will be addressed in appropriate >sequence. Of course if >you do not have any questions, I assume you have already graduated from the >beginner’s state. > > > > _______________ Dave vs. Carl: The Insignificant Championship Series. Who will win? http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://davevscarl.spaces.live.com/?icid=T001MSN38C07001 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2007 Report Share Posted January 9, 2007 --- doug revelle <mdrdsr41 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote: > If we wish to use a minimum of words, we might write, all things are > OneThing. There is no otherness, no separateness. > Peace in The Oneness, Yosh > Shree Doug Revelle - PraNAms. I appreciate your comment. I agree that there is no need of any words about that peace that passth understanding. If we are in that oneness, there is no need of advaitin list either or any other verbage including the word 'peace' - onenness' etc, about that peace that transcends the words as well. The study of vedanta is only for those who are still struggling with words and to those people only as Shree Dennis Waite indicated the discussion is intended. May request you as well as other members that in replying to previous message not to reproduce the entire massage, which is already available to the readers. Please select the points that you want to respond to. Hari Om! Sadananda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 to all it is a good beginning.while all the qualifications are to be met with as per scriptures i do not know how many really are qualified that way.as my guru said if one has the yearnings towards spirituality is good enough to start in our highly materialistic world . one can start at ant time .you join the stream and it will take you along. a start is what is important and for an earnest seeker he is lead by gods blessings to a guru who takes him further. best wishes to all who want to start . doug revelle <mdrdsr41 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote: If we wish to use a minimum of words, we might write, all things are OneThing. There is no otherness, no separateness. Peace in The Oneness, Yosh >kuntimaddi sadananda >advaitin >advaitin >CC: vasu > Introduction to Vedanta-1 >Mon, 8 Jan 2007 06:49:23 -0800 (PST) > > Introduction to Vedanta-1 > >I will present my understanding of what is Vedanta and/or why is it >important to know Vedanta. >This presentation is supposed to be for a freshman in the Vedantic study >with minimum of Sanskrit >words needed to understand the concept. We recognize, however, that we >have to use some Sanskrit >words to bring out the full impact of the terms that are defined. Typical >example is the word >‘vaasana’ which is more a technical word with no appropriate equivalent >word in English. One can >say vaasanas manifest as ‘likes and dislikes’ both at individual level and >at collective level. >Thus we have individual vaasanas as well as collective vaasanas that propel >to act the way we act, >individually or collectively. Another Sanskrit word is ‘maaya’, which is >poorly translated as >‘illusion’. It can be considered as that ‘power’ because of which one >appears to be many or one >becomes many. While more of these terms will be introduced as we proceed >further, the point is I >would like to make is that there are many technical words in Vedanta that >one should familiarize >one self early in the game, if one wants to understand and participate in >the Vedantic >discussions. Like many of these things, it is not essential that one >should understand all these >terms to know Vedanta, but it will be helpful. It is not really a big >deal, since we do use many >technical or mathematical terms without fully appreciating their >significance. For example, we >learn the symbolic language of mathematics in the early schooling without >questioning their >meaning or validity. We use two parallel lines signifying an equal sign, >symbolizing an equality >of what is on the left hand side with that on the right hand side of the >equation. Symbolically >the equal sign establishes a relation between two the sides of the >equation. Later we learn in >mathematics that a symbol of three parallel lines is used to establish an >identity equation that >is to declare what is on left side of the equation to be identically equal >to the one on the right >side of the equation. No, I am not writing on mathematics, but want to lead >you to simple but >profound statements of the Vedanta that establishes some relations; not >relations establishing >equality, but statements confirming identity-relationships. The first one >(equal sign) provides a >relation of two entities that appear to be different. The second one >(identity equation) provides >a relation (in fact, a relationless relation) of two entities that appear >to be different, but, in >truth, are one and the same. Vedanta zeros in on the second aspect. > >Before I discuss about the above aspects, I want to identity those who are >the beginners to >Vedantic study, since this writing is intended for them. A serious study >of any subject would >require a student to have met some prerequisites. Vedantic study is no >exception. Shankara >defines these requirements as ‘The four-fold qualifications’ – collectively >called as 4-Ds: 1. >Discrimination of what is eternal and what is ephemeral, 2. Dispassion to >reject that which is >ephemeral to gain that which is eternal, 3. Discipline of the mind to >divert it from trivial or >ephemeral pursuits in life to conserve the energy to pursue that which is >eternal, and finally 4. >Desire strong enough to motivate oneself in that pursuit without getting >discouraged by any type >of obstacles that arise. They are somewhat interrelated with each one >reinforcing the other. >Hence, from Shankara’s point, if one does not have these four-fold >qualifications, he has not >prepared his mind, to own the knowledge of Vedanta. The mind that has >acquired these four-fold >qualifications is the ‘pure’ mind that is ready to take off when the >Vedantic teaching is imparted >by a competent teacher. The discipline of the mind (the third D above) >involves six basic >disciplines of the mind for uncompromising commitment for the study – most >important among them is >a full faith in the import of Vedanta, as explained by the teacher. Each >word and idea in this >paragraph is important and elaborate discussion of these is available in >text like >VivEkachUDAmaNi; but we can discuss those here on the need basis. > >Hence a beginner for Vedantic study is the one who has acquired the >four-fold qualifications for >the study. If one has the pre-requisites, then the study will be fruitful. >I will address some of >the misconceptions of the Vedantic study later, but suffice here to say >that if one experiences >that the Vedantic study has not been fruitful, it is not the fault of >Vedanta but it only >signifies that the prerequisites have not been met adequately. Next >question that arises then is, >should one study Vedanta without these pre-requisites. Vedanta itself >address that issue saying >that one has to listen to Vedanta from a competent teacher (shravaNam) and >reflect on it until all >doubts are fully resolved (mananam) and contemplate on it until the >teaching of Vedanta is >assimilated fully and completely (nidhidhyaasanam). Listening to the >teacher is sufficient if one >has all the pre-requisites. For those who do not have the prerequisites, >the other two are >required until that conviction takes place in the mind; a conviction that >what Vedanta says is >indeed true to the letter. To illustrate this point, we can remind >ourselves the story of our >friend, Mr. Jones and the rat. Mr. Jones got a feeling that he is rat and >not a man. Do not ask >me when that feeling started for Mr. Jones. As for as we are concerned, it >is from the beginning. >So Mr. Jones used to hide in a closet whenever he sees a cat, since he is >rat and that he needs to >protect himself from that terrible looking cat. Mrs. Jones saw this and >somehow recognizing his >problem, took him to a psychologist who tried to convince Mr. Jones that he >is indeed a man since >in his full glory he is identically equal to a man and not a rat. After >many hours of sitting for >a prolonged length of time with his psychologist, Mr. Jones understood that >he is indeed a man and >not a rat that he thought he was. With that clear understanding he >returned home to discover to >his horror that there was that terrible cat still sitting there and waiting >for him. He rushed >back to the doctor in a hurry and asked the doctor; “Sir, I know I am man >and not a rat, but does >that cat know that I am man and not a rat?” –We may laugh at this but our >situation is not much >different from Mr. Jones, as we see this later. What Mr. Jones needs to >understand is about his >true identity, not just ‘as a thought’ but ‘as a fact’ that he is always a >man and never a rat, >even when he thought he was a rat. Shankara says with adequate >pre-requisites of the four-fold >qualifications, the Vedantic teaching from a competent teacher would become >immediately fruitful. >Otherwise, one has to develop that clarity of understanding through >constant reflection and >contemplation on the teaching until it is assimilated, or what Bhagavaan >Ramana calls as firm >abidance in that knowledge. > >What constitutes clear understanding of Vedanta? We will discuss this more >extensively little bit >latter, but here it is suffice to know that it involves two essential >aspects: One is a clear >understanding of the INDENTITY relations or relationless relationships >called mahavaakyas or great >aphorisms, and the second is to realize that nothing else is required other >than the clear >understanding of the identity relations. The significance of these two >aspects will become >apparent when we discuss the identity relations, and their implications. >From Mr. Jones and the >rat story, we have clear understanding of what clear understanding means. > >If we do not have clear understanding of Vedanta, it only means either we >do not have proper >exposure to Vedantic study (with the emphasis on proper), or our minds are >not adequately prepared >and therefore saadhana is required to purify the mind for the teaching to >sink in. Hence from the >point of Vedantic study, most of us are beginner-students requiring >listening, reflecting and >contemplating on the teaching. The purpose of the advaitin list serve is >exactly to accomplish >that – hence it is intended for all the beginners only who are trying to >get a clear understanding >of the Vedantic teaching. For the silent majority – there is no silent >teaching or learning in any >field of study, including Vedanta. Only way to clarify one’s understanding >is through discussions >and by raising questions. > >Of course, the intent of this writing as per our Chief Moderator, is to >address to those who have >not been extensively exposed to Vedantic study. If one has the four fold >qualifications, then >Vedanta declares that such a student will be lead to an appropriate teacher >needed for his >evolution. Now we can ask ourselves if we have those four-fold >qualifications or not, and who is >going to evaluate if we have them to qualify us to study Vedanta? In olden >days, the teacher >normally used to observe the students individually for a prolonged length >of time and determine >who is qualified and who is not. In modern days we do not have such system >of teaching. A >student has to develop these qualifications through association with the >company of good and by >following karma, bhakti and jnaana yogas. These aspects are extensively >discussed in Bhagavad >Gita as preparatory for Brahma vidya or Vedantic study. Not all minds are >ready for such kind of >study. Krishna gives out statistics in Gita – of thousands of people, very >few are interested in >this study and of those who are interested only few have the commitment to >study and of those very >few have the commitment to pursue till they realizes that identity >emphasized in Vedanta. >However, once one is exposed to Vedantic teaching, there is no fall back in >the sense that the >teaching will start to germinate slowly but studiedly once the mind is >purified through normal >life’s trifles. Krishna says, even if one dies in the Vedantic pursuit, he >will be born in the >next life in a conducive environment for his rapid growth. It also means >that our preparations >will never go waste and we do not have to redo all over in the next life. >It is a continuous >evolution. Examination of the life stories of some great souls indicates >that they took off >rapidly without any preparatory discipline required. All that means they >have already done all >those preparations in the past life or lives. Hence nothing will be wasted >as per the law of >action and result. It also means nothing is given free; one has to work for >it. This is true for >any field of study, and so is true for Vedantic study too. > >Shankara says, to be born as human being is very rare indeed when there are >billions of life forms >available for birth. Having been born as human being, the desire for >liberation is very rear >indeed, as emphasized by Krishna’s teaching. Finally, getting exposed to >teaching of Vedanta >through the association of great masters is even very rare indeed. In that >sense, we are blessed >indeed to have that opportunity to learn and those who can avail this >opportunities are blessed >indeed. > >With this sense of optimism, let us begin our study of Vedanta. > >--------- >A note to the other beginners: >I am formulating as it comes and how it is going to shape up with each post >will depend on the >feed back from you. I have no claims of the authorship since it is an >eternal teaching that is >flowing from the beginning-less time. You can raise the issues by way of >asking, but if you can >give me some freedom, all the questions will be addressed in appropriate >sequence. Of course if >you do not have any questions, I assume you have already graduated from the >beginner’s state. > > > > _______________ Dave vs. Carl: The Insignificant Championship Series. Who will win? http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://davevscarl.spaces.live.com/?icid=T001MSN38C07001 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 > > Sadanandji, PraNams. > Thank you for this post, a "thinking aloud"..exercise that most people go through, I guess, especially when we are plagued by problems and bouts of unhappiness. Along with all the issues you have raised, one thought that has often cropped up in my mind is 'why did God create the world?" I am sure some of the esteemed members have pondered on this or already have some rationale to explain the question based on their studies. I 'think' I know several answers :-) I would be grateful if members pitched in with their views: firstly, the very question is wrong, because as per Advaitha all that we see is an illusion, ascribed to Maya. We are all actors in a live dream, so that when each of us wakes up, we will no longer be asking this question. It is a very unsatisfactory answer, but at this point in time seems the most appealing. Then there is the possibility, that God created the world for his pleasure. The first few chapters of the Bhagavatham does talk about how the world was created, right? with Brahma meditating on Brahman and then generating the seven sages, Sanatkumara, Sadananda, et al., and setting off a chain. But the problem here is why would God create a world where people end up forgetting him? Then the third possibility is that, God did create the world for his pleasure as well as ours, so that we could enjoy his creations; but then God also gave Man "free will" so that he could exercise it as he chose. Now the problem that happened is that Man exercised it so much that it gradually took him away and away from God. So if we start at the top, sages like Sanatkumara, were only occupied with God and nothing else and quickly at the end of their life-span merged back with Him. This continued for some generations, or several hundreds of years, so that even in the age of Yagnavalkya and Maitreyi we see them at the end of a life of enjoying all the worldly pleasures, they have an urge to realize God. But this urge reduced with time as Man got more busy with the worldly pleasures, to such an extent that we now need to observe austerities for several janmas before we can hope to merge back into God... This is an okay explanation but puts too much importance on "free will". Then concepts such as "prarabdha karma, sanchita karma" all can be accommodated in this view. I am squarely responsible for my current life and the best I can do is try and pay off the 'debts' and not incur any new ones. PraNams. Veena. > > ..-------------------- > ...where I am going. I have no knowledge of the life before or life after. > Religions tell me that I go heaven or hell, depending on whether I follow > them or not. Only thing that I am sure of is that I am here and the world is > there, and I am forced to deal with it through out my life. In fact, life is > nothing but transacting with the world from > birth to death................ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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