worship

[mahak]

Yes, we beat the subject all around, but there has been accomplishment. My friend (and I do mean my friend) Guruvani came to note an important point that I have always tried to convey that christiand do not follow Lord Jesus Christ. This is why we have to distinguish between the two. Association with those who commit offenses at the expense of their spiritual master is to be avoided at all costs.

 

When we associate with the world, such as at work or other necessary endeavors outside our carefully screened vaisnava associates, we still, nevertheless, have the resp0onsibility to follow the gosthyanandi way of Srila Prabhupada. He recommends that we try to inject Krsna ideals into everyday conversation. So sometimes we may come accross folks who have genuinely good qualities who are open to the teachings of the Acaryas as we have heard and try to faithfully chant. This has been my experiance, and much of my works in regard to the teachings of Lord Jesus Christ have had good results.

 

So, I dont apologize for my delving into more occidental studies, because the results are there. And I also dont apologize in the slightest for my discernment of what is meant by worship, because this is the teachings of my spiritual master. The misunderstanding of what is meant by worship has destroyed christian theology, has made a hodgepodge mockery of everything. By the paulist idea that the soln is the father, the whole idea of relationship between the son and the father becomes moot. Vaisnavism is destroyed by paul and his ideas, is never attributed to actual teachings of Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Srila Prabhupada is not Krsna. He is not worshipped as Krsna, He rejects this idea vehemently. What is worshippable is his relationship with Krsna. Once this relationship is destroyed in favor of worshipping Guru as Krsna, the entire philosophy becomes as useless as so-called paulist christianity.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Shakti-Fan]

jadyapi amara guru chaitanyera das

tathapi janiye ami tanhara prakasha

(Chaitanyacharitamrita, Adi - 1/44)

 

Even if my guru is the servant of Lord Chaitanya I recognise him as His manifestation.

[theist]

Good points Mahak. I don't know enough about the writings of Paul to know what he taught or not but it is clear that a very great many christians are confused as to rather Jesus is the Son or the Father. This is where acintya-bedhabedha comes in. Jesus clearly taught it and lived it. Lord Caitanya's followers can explain it in philosphical terms whereas christians are mostly confused by it.

 

Some of them repeat the advaitic view that the Father manifested himself as the Son while on Earth and now has gone back to being the full fledged Father of spirit.

 

Lord Caitanya's followers would provide a great service to Lord Caitanya and simulataneously His good Son Jesus Christ by being patient with these christians and explaining this in more detail to those few that may listen.

 

The world needs teachers and not more sectarian warriors.

[Guest guest]

Here are some possibilities as a way to reconcile various world views: Unity in Diversity.

 

__ CLAIMS THAT LAKSMI IS MOTHER OF JESUS:

According to at least one Hindu teacher of the Shaivite sect, Hindu men are instructed to see their wives as a manifestation of the Goddess Laksmi. Therefore all mothers could in one sense be seen as manifestation of Goddess Laksmi. "Be a queen to they father-in-law, a queen to thy mother-in-law, a queen to they husband's sisters, and a queen to they husband's brothers." Rig Veda 10.85.46. HV, P. 139

 

__ CLAIMS THAT MARY IS THE ONLY LAKSMI:

On the other hand, it would be nice if Christians could be sensitive to the fact that not everyone in the entire world sees Mary as the ONLY manifestation of Goddess Laksmi. Gandhi [paraphrased] said that one of the problems he has with the Bible is he cannot accept the claim that Jesus is the ONLY son of God; that perhaps for him the only Son of God is Chaitanya.

 

 

 

__ CLAIMS THAT FOLLOWING [whoever] IS THE RIGHT WAY:

In Tibetan Buddhism it has been said, "If you worship a piece of straw as the Buddha, you get the blessings of a Buddha; if you worship a piece of straw as a piece of straw, you get the blessings of a piece of straw." They have this saying to illustrate that if you put your whole heart into worship, you sincerely follow all of the precepts, you will get the blessings of The Divine.

 

So even though who we are worshipping may not technically be correct, for example in Brhad Bhagavamrita the destination kept on changing for the sadhaka, if one worships sincerely he or she will finally reach the other shore and ultimate goal, the perfect place of refuge for that individual jiva.

 

So if some people wish to worship Jesus, and others feel that they know it is historically incorrect, factually incorrect, or incorrect as far as the highest siddhanta goes, that would be similar to worshipping a piece of straw as the Buddha, so they will get the blessings of a Buddha.

 

 

 

__ NEWLY REVEALED TEACHINGS AND SCRIPTURES SUCH AS KEBRA NAGAST

In Tibetan Buddhism there is the idea of terma. Terma are teachings that a sage or rsi wrote and then buried in a mountain cave somewhere to be uncovered later in Kali Yuga, as the work was too advanced at that time to be understood. Terma were also buried because the rsis knew that great libraries would be burned to the ground, monasteries dismantled, etc.

 

So from the Tibetan viewpoint, one may look at Kebra Nagast as a type of terma, and if it gives one strength in worshipping a piece of straw even as a Buddha, they will get the blessings of a Buddha.

 

 

 

DIFFERENT ACHARYAS HAVE DIFFERENT MISSIONS

__ Having said all of that, it would be appreciated if the advocates of peace and love and don't say anything to rock my worldview realize that there were and are many many different spiritual teachers on the planet besides whoever one's own spiritual role models are. Each spiritual teacher came with a different mission.

 

For example, some Hindu sects feel that people with very heavy samskaras based in Christianity may not in this lifetime be able to make the full conversion to Hinduism. They have very heavy samskaras of their Baptism, First Holy Communion, the nuns hitting their knuckles with a ruler if they went to Catholic school, their parents wailing and lamenting and threatening to disown them if they turn fully Hindu, their co-workers giving them the evil eye if they do not accept the "fact" that Jesus is Lord. So it is possible that for these persons remaining ardha Hindu or half Hindu in this lifetime is the biggest quantum leap that they can make, according to some Hindu sects.

 

On the other hand, the acharyas of these other Hindu sects traditions have instructed their faithful to speak out boldly against the Abrahamic religions and how they differ from Hinduism. So it is entirely possible that some people feel it is their moral duty to say that Hindusim is distinct from the Abrahamic religions. And why would that be? Well for starters in India the Christians went in and they robbed the temples systematically in the name of Jesus. It was called "shaking the pagoda tree". That is why Christopher Columbus was looking for a route to the New World, to get to those pagoda trees faster.

 

So I hope that people with the very heavy Christian samskaras will please have mercy on their brethren in Asia who do not have the same warm fuzzy feelings about Christianity that you do. Many feel a fierce anger and hatred towards the Abrahamic religions for the systematic destruction of their culture, the desecration of their temples, and for the mocking of their religion, and the erosion of their countrymen's self esteem. IT was all done in a very systematic way: to smash them down and oppress them. That is why acharyas appeared and told them to speak boldly and proudly and explain to the world how full conversion to Hinduism is different than ardha or half Hindu.

 

So please do not be so naive to be surprised when you speak so lovingly of a "special time of the year" that others will boldly challenge you. If you had foreigners come to your country in the name of Jesus and cut off the noses and ears of the brahmana priests of the Deities, plunder all the wealth of the Deities, and force the brahmanas to eat meat by tying them up and forcibly putting meat to their lips, then it is very possible that to vindicate the memory of your ancestors that you might want to point out the distinctions between one religion and another. You might feel angry when Christians try to appropriate aspects of your religion as part of Christianity because you do not want it to lose its purity. You do not want to see this happen because your own gurudeva has told all of his sisya to challenge this the moment you see people trying to pass off syncretic views of ardha Hindu as full Hindu.

[theist]

 

Here are some possibilities as a way to reconcile various world views: Unity in Diversity.

 

__ CLAIMS THAT LAKSMI IS MOTHER OF JESUS:

According to at least one Hindu teacher of the Shaivite sect, Hindu men are instructed to see their wives as a manifestation of the Goddess Laksmi. Therefore all mothers could in one sense be seen as manifestation of Goddess Laksmi. "Be a queen to they father-in-law, a queen to thy mother-in-law, a queen to they husband's sisters, and a queen to they husband's brothers." Rig Veda 10.85.46. HV, P. 139

 

I don't hear it that way at all. It is nice to see like that but Radha-tattva is deeper than that. And to be an expansion of that Radha-tattva is a different thing then seeing the woman next door in such a respectful way as you described.

 

 

__ CLAIMS THAT MARY IS THE ONLY LAKSMI:

On the other hand, it would be nice if Christians could be sensitive to the fact that not everyone in the entire world sees Mary as the ONLY manifestation of Goddess Laksmi. Gandhi [paraphrased] said that one of the problems he has with the Bible is he cannot accept the claim that Jesus is the ONLY son of God; that perhaps for him the only Son of God is Chaitanya.

 

Present Christians are not likely to have such a broad vision in most cases. They may need their Hindu brethren to show the truth by example.But will the Hindus arise beyond their own prejudices? that remains to be seen.

 

I hear the 'only Son of God differently than most' I think. Just like Lord Brahma is called the only son of God sometimes we need to understand that that desigination is only good on the material plane. He is the first only directly 'born' in the universe and everyone else came after him and through him. So in that sense Brahma is the only son of God.

 

If you read in the first verses of the first chapter of John you will see that Jesus Christ is seen by the writer as the same person that we call Brahma. This is yet another reason they confuse Jesus with the Cause of all Causes for they don't conceive of anything really beyond this universe. They misunderstand what John wrote.

 

From the spiritual point of view we are all sons/daughters of God and we are infinite in number. We all need to rise to this level of seeing reality.

 

 

 

[quote]__ CLAIMS THAT FOLLOWING [whoever] IS THE RIGHT WAY:

In Tibetan Buddhism it has been said, "If you worship a piece of straw as the Buddha, you get the blessings of a Buddha; if you worship a piece of straw as a piece of straw, you get the blessings of a piece of straw." They have this saying to illustrate that if you put your whole heart into worship, you sincerely follow all of the precepts, you will get the blessings of The Divine.

[Guest guest]

Right. The Queen of Spain who financed Columbus was sincerely looking for spices, not gold. Gotcha. Just like Dubya is in Iraq for democracy, not oil. That's why when Columbus landed in the Americas he was asking all of the indigenous peoples where their spices were, not where is all of your gold.

 

 

"...The nabobs who returned after SHAKING THE PAGODA TREE represented so much wealth taken out of India, which was never returned..." --HM Hyndman, England for All, Chapter VI India

 

"...The lure of the exotic East was strong and especially the chance of SHAKING THE PAGODA TREE..." --India, Topographical, Historical www nationalgalleries org

 

"...Most of them were into making quick money: SHAKING THE PAGODA TREE which dropped gold and returned to Ole Blighty to live in luxury on their ill-gotten gains...This Above All" The Tribune India Sat 9-22-2001

[mahak]

There are other topics about Lord Jesus Christ that we can continue argumentative spirit. This one may be linked, because of the false worship of Lord Jesus Christ as the Supreme Father (thus destroying bhakti yoga, meaning reciprocation of transcendental relationship), but lets discuss worship, because this is the topic.

 

Some insist that Srila Prabhupada is worshipped exactly like krsna, which is also a concoction that he never taught. To try to make sense without understanding acintya bhedabheda tattwa is just manufactured philosophy. Srila Prabhupada accepts guru puja, but not for himself, but as servant, immediately placing such worship at the feet of KRSNA. He does not accept

worship as krsna, as the deity, he is not visnu tattwa. For better

understanding, one should study Bhagavad Gita As It Is, wherein

Srila Prabhupada describes the difference between worship (which is

placed with brahmanas, guru, superior persons, gurus, ancestors, etc) and BHAJATE, which is reserved ONLY for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. When Srila Prabhupada instructs his disciple to worship him as God, he is

also considering acintya bhedabheda tattwa, meaning, and fully describing throughout his teachings, that his divinity is as the enjoyed (servant), not the enjoyer (Purusa). Latter day devotees have missed these important instructions when they describe worship of the Spiritual Master, making no distinction between worsahip and bhajanti. If one thinks Srila Prabhupadas krsna consciousness cannot be attained by the disciple, then he wasted his

time in trying to teach such sentimental devotees. This is where we

are eternally lost, that we cannot have what Srila Prabhupada offers.

 

 

 

<CENTER>Chapter 6. Knowledge of the Absolute</CENTER>

 

TEXT 47

 

yoginam api sarvesam

mad-gatenantar-atmana

sraddhavan bhajate yo mam

sa me yuktatamo matah

SYNONYMS

 

yoginam--of all yogis; api--also; sarvesam--all types of; mat-gatena--abiding in Me; antah-atmana--always thinking of Me within; sraddha-van--in full faith; bhajate--renders transcendental loving service; yah--one who; mam--Me (the Supreme Lord); sah--he; me--Mine; yukta-tamah--the greatest yogi; matah--is considered.

 

 

TRANSLATION

 

And of all yogis, he who always abides in Me with great faith, worshiping Me in transcendental loving service, is most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all.

 

 

 

PURPORT

 

The word bhajate is significant here. Bhajate has its root in the verb bhaj, which is used when there is need of service. The English word "worship" cannot be used in the same sense as bhaj. Worship means to adore, or to show respect and honor to the worthy one. But service with love and faith is especially meant for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One can avoid worshiping a respectable man or a demigod and may be called discourteous, but one cannot avoid serving the Supreme Lord without being thoroughly condemned. Every living entity is part and parcel of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and thus every living entity is intended to serve the Supreme Lord by his own constitution. Failing to do this, he falls down. The Bhagavatam confirms this as follows:

 

 

 

ya esam purusam saksad

atma-prabhavam isvaram

na bhajanty avajananti

sthanad bhrastah patanty adhah

 

 

"Anyone who does not render service and neglects his duty unto the primeval Lord, who is the source of all living entities, will certainly fall down from his constitutional position."

In this verse also the word bhajanti is used. Therefore, bhajanti is applicable to the Supreme Lord only, whereas the word "worship" can be applied to demigods or to any other common living entity. The word avajananti, used in this verse of Srimad-Bhagavatam, is also found in the Bhagavad-gita: avajananti mam mudhah: "Only the fools and rascals deride the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Krsna." Such fools take it upon themselves to write commentaries on the Bhagavad-gita without an attitude of service to the Lord. Consequently they cannot properly distinguish between the word bhajanti and the word "worship."

The culmination of all kinds of yoga practices lies in bhakti-yoga. All other yogas are but means to come to the point of bhakti in bhakti-yoga. Yoga actually means bhakti-yoga; all other yogas are progressions toward the destination of bhakti-yoga. From the beginning of karma-yoga to the end of bhakti-yoga is a long way to self-realization. Karma-yoga, without fruitive results, is the beginning of this path. When karma-yoga increases in knowledge and renunciation, the stage is called jnana-yoga. When jnana-yoga increases in meditation on the Supersoul by different physical processes, and the mind is on Him, it is called astanga-yoga. And, when one surpasses the astanga-yoga and comes to the point of the Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna, it is called bhakti yoga, the culmination. Factually, bhakti-yoga is the ultimate goal, but to analyze bhakti-yoga minutely one has to understand these other yogas. The yogi who is progressive is therefore on the true path of eternal good fortune. One who sticks to a particular point and does not make further progress is called by that particular name: karma-yogi, jnana-yogi or dhyana-yogi, raja-yogi, hatha-yogi, etc. If one is fortunate enough to come to the point of bhakti-yoga, it is to be understood that he has surpassed all the other yogas. Therefore, to become Krsna conscious is the highest stage of yoga, just as, when we speak of Himalayan, we refer to the world's highest mountains, of which the highest peak, Mount Everest, is considered to be the culmination.

It is by great fortune that one comes to Krsna consciousness on the path of bhakti-yoga to become well situated according to the Vedic direction. The ideal yogi concentrates his attention on Krsna, who is called Syamasundara, who is as beautifully colored as a cloud, whose lotus-like face is as effulgent as the sun, whose dress is brilliant with jewels and whose body is flower garlanded. Illuminating all sides is His gorgeous luster, which is called the brahmajyoti. He incarnates in different forms such as Rama, Nrsimha, Varaha and Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and He descends like a human being, as the son of mother Yasoda, and He is known as Krsna, Govinda and Vasudeva. He is the perfect child, husband, friend and master, and He is full with all opulences and transcendental qualities. If one remains fully conscious of these features of the Lord, he is called the highest yogi.

This stage of highest perfection in yoga can be attained only by bhakti-yoga, as is confirmed in all Vedic literature:

 

 

yasya deve para bhaktir yatha deve tatha gurau

tasyaite kathita hy arthah prakasante mahatmanah

"Only unto those great souls who have implicit faith in both the Lord and the spiritual master are all the imports of Vedic knowledge automatically revealed."

Bhaktir asya bhajanam tad ihamutropadhi-nairasyenamusmin manah kalpanam; etad eva naiskarmyam. "Bhakti means devotional service to the Lord which is free from desire for material profit, either in this life or in the next. Devoid of such inclinations, one should fully absorb the mind in the Supreme. That is the purpose of naiskarmya." (Gopala-tapani Upanisad 1.15)

These are some of the means for performance of bhakti, or Krsna consciousness, the highest perfectional stage of the yoga system.

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guest guest]

Sanjay Subrahmaniam went to Lisbon and went through the Portuguese documents The Career and Legend of Vasco de Gama. Results of his findings? Vasco de Gama cut off the ears and noses of hundreds of innocent Indian fishermen, sent them to the ruler, and told him to make curry out of them. From 1540 onwards, the Portuguese Catholic Christians destroyed Hindu temples and erected Christian churches and chapels by using temple stones. Example Santome Church in Chennai after destroying Kapileswara temple.

 

From 1560 to 1812 the barbaric Catholic Portuguese Christians tortured and killed Hindus in what is now known as the inquisition. Hindu men, women, and children were brutally interrogated, flogged, and slowly dismembered in front of their own relatives. Their eyelids were sliced off and their limbs were so amputated so that the victim could remain conscious to find only his torso and head remaining behind.

 

-- from "NGOs work hand in hand with proselytisers" The Organiser April 17, 2005 page 30 by N. Krishna.

[theist]

 

There are other topics about Lord Jesus Christ that we can continue argumentative spirit. This one may be linked, because of the false worship of Lord Jesus Christ as the Supreme Father (thus destroying bhakti yoga, meaning reciprocation of transcendental relationship), but lets discuss worship, because this is the topic.

 

Important point, bhajate.