Krsna Story Borrowed from Christianity????

[Tattvadasa]

I don't know who these guys are at this website. But my hats off to them.

 

Vaishnavas who want the truth about Christianity can get a good education here.

 

http://www.burningcross.net/index.html

[theist]

 

It is obvious isn't it...in the material realm religion is going to have defect. Not one is perfect in my opinion.

 

I agree totally. Thinking there is a perfect religion is what keeps people converting from this one to that one, changing their garb and rituals as they go. But amongst it all good is being attained. Every head bowed in prayer, every service rendered, all these are held in trust by the Lord Himself in that souls transcendental bank account irregardless of that souls religious affiliation..... or lack of it.

 

The ultimate religion was taught by Christ when he pointed to loving God with all of one's heart mind and strength and others as yourself as being the essence of religion.

 

Some think they have advanced beyond Christianity but they don't have a clue what Christianity even is. Christianity is not Pat Robertson or the Pope. Christianity is following the teaching of Christ which if analyized by any simple sane person can be understood as a total transformation of the heart from a lover of matter to a lover of God.

 

Jesus taught the same principle as Srila Prabhupada, karma yoga as action in Krsna consciousness.

 

If I was to refer to myself as a Christian I would be a liar just as I would be if I called myself a Vaisnava. Both terms are really the same. I am simply a demon who sees the need and wants to change but is having a hard time doing it and nothing more.

 

Oh and before someone chimes in with "Jesus never said Krsna in the Bible" I will remind them that Lord Caitanya said Krsna has hundreds of millions of names and that in each of them He had invested His transcendental energies.

[bija]

 

Bija,

and others of his mentality. I have a few serious question here. I want to find out just how deep your Judaeo-Christian conditioning goes.

 

1. Do you support Americas fight on terrorism?

2. Do you support the war in Iraq.

3. Who are the terrorists??? quote by Tattvadasa

Tattvadasa Prabhu, I had the courtesy to publicly answer your questions.

Could you show me the same courtesy?

 

Why did you ask these questions?

Where did you want to go with the answers?

What are your thoughts on the above questions?

[Tattvadasa]

 

Yes Tattva I would agree. But many fundamentalists are divisive or intolerant of other faith. Many I said...I do not know about all.

 

Do you think there are elements of fundamentalism in Gaudiya Vaisnavism?

Fanaticism cloaks itself in many dresses. Yes I know of some Vaishnavas who would like to round up every person with aids and put him in a concentration camp. They are as fundamentalist as any right wing Christian group. If it were up to them they would gas every practicing homo-sex person. That is one type of fundamentalism we are familiar with in the west. Funny thing is these same fundamentalist so-called Vaishnavas teach that Jesus is a pure devotee. They preach from the Bible as much as the Veda. I will not name the group. They even send their kids off to the war in Iraq. See the connection? Of course these Fundamentalist are not really Gaudiya Vaishnavas. But they claim to be.

 

But there is another type of fundamentalist also. That is one who sticks closely to the sampradaya and has not deviated. Yes he is a fundamentalist but not like the ones I mention above. Just like a Jain fundamentalist is harmless so the Vaishnava fundamentalist is harmless and even more. He is helpful to every living entity.

 

For instance we must try to convince others that Mahaprabhus mission is the best mission on earth. We should do what ever we can to convince them. If they are not convinced then we should encourage them to try to make progress on the path they are treading. Knowing that every soul will eventually make it home. So we do not need to curse them. But we should still tell the truth if they believe a philosophy that is wrong we shoud do our best to show them the fualt. Take away the poisen and give the nectar.

 

Try to consider that when the world was under Vaishnava rule, Vedic society was very pluralistic and many different theologies were tolerated and even promoted. Just imagine it was Vaishnavas at the top of the chain that allowed such pluralism. But philosophies that teach, 'only one way to god', 'believe or burn', and who are ready to put such theology to work like the Nazi's did cannot be tolerated in a pluralistic Vedic society. Whether they attach the label Christian, Jew, Moslem or Vaishnava it does not matter, they will spoil society. They have already done so. It is a matter of cleaning it up.

[bija]

sorry...my below post came through twice after editing. I have deleted it here.

[bija]

It is pleasing to hear your understandings. In that there can be tolerance in fundamental faith.

 

Once fundamentals are grasped....do you think there is a level of realization where literal interpretation of scripture is not of highest importance?

 

Or should scripture always be taken literally. Is literal interpretation only for those of certain qualification?

 

(edited section) Personally I find much advantage reading the Bhagavatam literally. It adds so much to my spiritual life and imagination as a human being. Actually such an interpretation I feel is of great benefit to spiritual growth...and development of faith.

 

But saying this...I would not feel threatened in belief if someone proposed that some topics are myth or should not be taken literally. Because I can also see the power of myth in relation to psyche.

 

So there is no conflict within me regarding these issues.

 

In my basic understandings I feel Gaudiya Vaisnavism is to deep and transcendental to fall

under the label of fundamentalist. But ofcourse we may be fundamentalist in our approach.

[Tattvadasa]

 

Tattvadasa Prabhu, I had the courtesy to publicly answer your questions.

Could you show me the same courtesy?

 

Why did you ask these questions?

Where did you want to go with the answers?

What are your thoughts on the above questions?

I was just wondering how far to the right some on this thread lean thats all.

 

I know some who would anwer.

 

1. Yes we support the war on terrorism.

2. Yes we support the war in Iraq.

3. They are fundamentalist Islamist who want to destroy western culture that is who the terrorists are. We are the good guys. God bless America.

 

Funny thing is these same people beat around the bush trying to speak from a very highly elevated platform. They say such things as 'we are not vaishnavas we are not Christians we are spirit souls...etc etc etc Jesus was a pure devotee, my guru said so, etc etc etc.. But their actions tell us who they really are. They are not different than your average fundamentalist born again crazies but they are posing as Vaishnavas who know the real purport of both the Bible and Vedas.

 

http://www.burningcross.net/index.html

 

and you thought i was the fundie?????

[bija]

 

and you thought i was the fundie????? quote by Tattvadasa

 

And you had a hunch I was a neo-con did you? Or do you think I am a fundie too?

 

Thanks to Srila Prabhupada I left the arena of politics some years back.

 

Strange old world.

[bija]

http://www.burningcross.net/index.html

 

Strange name to call a website...the burning cross was the symbol of the Klu Klux Klan wasn't it?

 

So little precious time in this life...and we spend all our energy in developing something like this. With drama flicks and Damien Omen music.

[Tattvadasa]

 

It is pleasing to hear your understandings. In that there can be tolerance in fundamental faith.

 

Once fundamentals are grasped....do you think there is a level of realization where literal interpretation of scripture is not of highest importance?

 

Or should scripture always be taken literally. Is literal interpretation only for those of certain qualification?

 

(edited section) Personally I find much advantage reading the Bhagavatam literally. It adds so much to my spiritual life and imagination as a human being. Actually such an interpretation I feel is of great benefit to spiritual growth...and development of faith.

 

But saying this...I would not feel threatened in belief if someone proposed that some topics are myth or should not be taken literally. Because I can also see the power of myth in relation to psyche.

 

So there is no conflict within me regarding these issues.

 

In my basic understandings I feel Gaudiya Vaisnavism is to deep and transcendental to fall

under the label of fundamentalist. But ofcourse we may be fundamentalist in our approach.

 

Yes I would say some literal interpretations are for those with a particular adhikari. It is not wrong to take things literally.

 

Some things are meant to be taken literally and others not. For instance the injunction that one should cut the tongue from the mouth of an offender. In this case lets not take it literally but understand strong emphasis has been put in order for us to understand it is a very bad thing to blaspheme a devotee of the Lord. The same type of fundamentalist who would gas an active homo-sex person would also cut your tongue out and start an iquisition to purify society.

 

We know that Vaishnavism is the oldest religion on earth. But have you ever read many stories where people had their tongues cut out? No of course not. The stories that we do hear of beheadings etc always have a happy ending. But some with a Judaeo Christian psyche might consider cutting out ones tongue as a way to purify them. This is not different than putting one on the rack and torturing them for purification.

 

Consider this. In math numbers represent something. They are only symbols. Stories can also be like that. The characters represent something. It is not necessary to take it all literally. It is science.

 

As you know Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur made novels and stories. Are they to be taken literally. Not necessarily. I would like to think these things happened somewhere in time. But understanding the spiritual truth is the important thing.

 

Of course the 10th canto and Krishnas pastimes can and should be taken literally in my opinion.

 

All of Krishnas pastimes I take literally. Many of the stories in the Bhagavatam I also take literally. But when it comes to such things as the Universal form or Brahma sitting on a Lotus flower, if we were looking from a distance I do not think it would look exactly like that. I think the Bhagavatam in many cases explain things in a a way our minds can grasp it using characters as symbols.

 

On the Jesus subject. I believe in fact he did not exist. That is my gut feeling. Or if he did he was not the person we have been led to believe he is. Perhaps the account is a fictionalized version of a real person. But the ideal that some propose that he entailed is certainly worthy of consideration. But that ideal cannot be found in the Bible if we take the Bible to be the history. So where does the ideal come from? And as far as wild speculations that he was Lord Brahma, this must be dismissed. That is just mental concoction. No acharya teaches that.

 

 

This is how I see it.

[Tattvadasa]

 

http://www.burningcross.net/index.html

 

Strange name to call a website...the burning cross was the symbol of the Klu Klux Klan wasn't it?

 

So little precious time in this life...and we spend all our energy in developing something like this. With drama flicks and Damien Omen music.

 

I think many of the articles have been researched well. Yes it is a myth buster that is for sure. The Klu Klux Klan were a Christian group lets not forget. Protecting society from evil influence that is what they thought they were doing and still think they are doing. The Bible is still read at their gatherings. I know I came from that region. . I believe that is the point of the symbol. A burning cross is the symbol of hatred, atrocity, intolerance and so on that Christianity had imbibed for centuries. I found a lot of good reads on the site and think it is a very good source of information concerning the history of Christianity. I would like to see one done about Islam.

[bija]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts about literalism Tattva. I feel somewhat similar.

 

 

We know that Vaishnavism is the oldest religion on earth. But have you ever read many stories where people had their tongues cut out? No of course not. The stories that we do hear of beheadings etc always have a happy ending. quote by Tattvadasa

Ahh...thanks for the giggle.

 

 

A burning cross is the symbol of hatred, atrocity, intolerance and so on that Christianity had imbibed for centuries. I found a lot of good reads on the site and think it is a very good source of information concerning the history of Christianity. I would like to see one done about Islam. quote by Tattvadasa

Yes...why we are at it why don't we wish one to be done for the whole shaboogle!(just kidding)

 

This material realm is full of problem....I think we already know that Tattva. Best to focus on the transcendental and maybe point out the nature of defect. Rather than focusing on all the defects themselves. And be grateful that we have entered a tradition that has a reasonably good track history compared to the history of some other traditions...ie inquisition etc.

[Guest guest]

I just read an article on the BBC about the middle Kumba Mela going on now, here is the last paragragh..

 

"According to Hindu mythology, gods and demons fought a celestial war over a pitcher of divine nectar. Allahabad is one of the four towns where drops of nectar fell during the battle."

 

 

 

I think it is a direct result of Christian doctrine and brainwashing that causes everyone to dismiss everything else but Jesus as a myth. Yes they are a deceitful cheating bunch who have written history, all under Christian influence. The masses are brainwashed by such propaganda. No one would dare portray Jesus as a mythological deity in the mainstream news.

 

Western writers still portray Indian scriptures as MYTHOLOGY. Can you imagine a story relating to a Christian holy day that at the end read something like...

 

"According to Christian mythology the god-man Jesus was born on December 25, walked on water, and performed other miracles. According to the mythological story he requested his followers to drink his blood and eat his flesh as a way to attain salvation in a mythical heaven where he promises to serve them lemonaide on a golden platter."

[theist]

How many Indians are there that consider the stories in the Puranas as mythology. You sound as if the one billion Indians have only one mind.

[Guest guest]

I am no expert but as far as I know the Indian education system was turned over to Christians after Indian independence. It was one of the political deals those who stole Gandhis movement made with the powers that be. The western view of history is being taught in about every public school and has been for over 50 years. Jesus is referred to as a real person and all the gods of other cultures are referred to as myths including the gods of India. Therefore now a large percentage of the Indian population, and most of the younger generation, consider the Veda to be myth and even those who accept the Veda as scripture refer to their deities as idols. No Indians are not of one mind. Those who adhere to tradition are seen as fanatics by many.

[bija]

I find this is the wonderful openess of Vedic literature. It can be taken on many levels. Such as literally, mythologically and even deeper, transcendentally in relation to the higher self.

 

It seems to speak in relation to the full being; body, psyche, and spirit.

 

Similarly these three dimensions can be encountered in one's being, without need for contradiction.

 

How one perceives may be due to qualification.

[Guest guest]

It is a fact most of the major media outlets in India today are owned by Christians. Bollywood the biggest movie industry in the world has a strong biased for promoting western ideals. In many films the progressive Christian society is played up and Indian culture played down. The sadhus are portrayed as fools or comical characters in many Bollywood films. The propaganda is great and is working on the Indian population.

[Tattvadasa]

 

This material realm is full of problem....I think we already know that Tattva. Best to focus on the transcendental and maybe point out the nature of defect. Rather than focusing on all the defects themselves. And be grateful that we have entered a tradition that has a reasonably good track history compared to the history of some other traditions...ie inquisition etc.

 

Allow me to diagree with you. Yes the world is a stoolhouse we should try to get out of. It is the place of maya. That does not mean we do not need to know how the maya is working. I think we should understand what is happening in the world. There is a lot more happening behind the curtain that many of us are completely oblivious to. I think we should educate ourselves about the deceptive nature of current governments in power and try to speak the truth about what is happening worldwide on such issues as global warming, globalization, one world government etc. . Not just sit back chanting hare krishna trying to be aloof and not knowing what is happening around us. I think the Vaishnavas can make a difference and should be more outspoken about current events.

[Guest guest]

 

It is a fact most of the major media outlets in India today are owned by Christians. Bollywood the biggest movie industry in the world has a strong biased for promoting western ideals. In many films the progressive Christian society is played up and Indian culture played down. The sadhus are portrayed as fools or comical characters in many Bollywood films. The propaganda is great and is working on the Indian population.

 

 

Take a look at the hit movie Lagan if you think Bollywood is against Bhakti

 

That will change your thinking - I'm sure of it.

[bija]

 

Allow me to diagree with you. Yes the world is a stoolhouse we should try to get out of. It is the place of maya. That does not mean we do not need to know how the maya is working. I think we should understand what is happening in the world. There is a lot more happening behind the curtain that many of us are completely oblivious to. I think we should educate ourselves about the deceptive nature of current governments in power and try to speak the truth about what is happening worldwide on such issues as global warming, globalization, one world government etc. . Not just sit back chanting hare krishna trying to be aloof and not knowing what is happening around us. I think the Vaishnavas can make a difference and should be more outspoken about current events.

quote by Tattvadasa

 

I think you may have missed my point somewhat.

 

I would like to point out the nature of defect, ie maya and it's workings. But not such much the defects themselves.

 

It is good to look at what fruit each approach will give.

 

By teaching about the nature of defect one can give people knowledge as to the why's of the defects themselves.

 

If one just focus' on the defects themselves more prominently the audience influenced by ignorance will not enlighten, but become more divisive amongst their groupings.

 

The important point is to assist in raising the individuals standing. Focusing on the negative will only create more negative. Just look at the jihadists and the fruit coming from their teachers.

 

You see this is why Srila Prabhupada saw teaching about devotional service as the greatest humanitarian work.

[theist]

 

I am no expert but as far as I know the Indian education system was turned over to Christians after Indian independence....

 

LOL. Yeah in the West many are convinced the Jews run everything.

 

I do not think you are being very precise with what you consider a Christian. Just because someone is from the west does not mean they are a Christrian. Christians don't run things in the west. The public schools are not even allowed to to talk about God.

 

Funny we have Christian fundementalist parents sometimes mounting big protests if a school offers a class in hatha-yoga because they think it is the Hindu's sneaking in. LOL. Don't be like that.

[theist]

 

It is a fact most of the major media outlets in India today are owned by Christians. Bollywood the biggest movie industry in the world has a strong biased for promoting western ideals. In many films the progressive Christian society is played up and Indian culture played down. The sadhus are portrayed as fools or comical characters in many Bollywood films. The propaganda is great and is working on the Indian population.

You must be the same Guest I just replied to. Now the Christians have taken over Bollywood huh? You are cracking me up. Whoever runs Bollywood I am not sure but they certainly are not Christians, Do you think Christians also run Hollywood?

 

The people who run Bollywood and Hollywood are simply materialists out for a buck.

 

Indian culture may be following Western culture more and more but that is just a reaction to India having been so poor materialy for so long and now they are trying to catch up. This is maya for sure as happiness can never come from matter. But to blame Jesus Christ for the material appetite of the people of the world is simply beyond bizarre.

 

edited for sp mistakes

[Tattvadasa]

To blame Jesus for the condition of western society is a big stretch of the imagination and I am not sure that is what our guest was alluding to. However to blame western society, imperialism and colonialism for India's degraded condition is not a stretch of the imagination by any means. It is not the single solitary reason for India's moral decay but it is a very large contributing factor. It is also now a contributing factor in India's new economy and growing wealth. Western based colonist and imperialist have always found ways to destroy cultures and then rebuild them, replacing the old cultures with the western version of civilization.

 

The British destroyed the ancient Indian school system and let education lie idle for decades. And yes it was Christians who molded the modern education system we find in India today. Now the schools are teaching western curriculum and history. The village school system had vedic roots but was destroyed by the British invaders who were indeed all Christians. Where the schools taught eastern history from the Veda before the British arrived now they teach the Veda is myth. Where the schools taught Krishna and all the demigods were real personalities and historical persons they now teach all the Veda is a myth and all the characters mythical. However they teach Jesus is an historical person, they teach Jesus is not a myth and was a real live person. No they do not teach Christianity in the schools per-se they merely lay the seed of doubt about India's heritage teaching it is myth. This has caused many Indians to doubt their own heritage and be ashamed of it. It is a type of cultural genocide masquerading as modern education. Now all of India goes by the Christian calendar, takes Sunday off like all Christians do, celebrate the Christian New Year etc. etc. etc. In the not so recent past different cultures were destroyed by the sword, deities and temples destroyed, and people forced to convert. Now societies are being destroyed in a much more clever and seemingly human way. But it is the same old western mentality, our way is the best and everything else should be replaced by our system.

 

"I say without fear of my figures being challenged successfully, that today India is more illiterate than it was fifty or a hundred years ago, and so is Burma, because the British administrators (all Christians) , when they came to India, instead of taking hold of things as they were, began to root them out. They scratched the soil and began to look at the root, and left the root like that, and the beautiful tree perished (in other words they destroyed the school system). The village schools were not good enough for the British administrator, so he came out with his program. Every school must have so much paraphernalia, building, and so forth. Well, there were no such schools at all. There are statistics left by a British administrator which show that, in places where they have carried out a survey, ancient schools have gone by the board, because there was no recognition for these schools, and the schools established after the European pattern were too expensive for the people, and therefore they could not possibly overtake the thing. I defy anybody to fulfill a program of compulsory primary education of these masses inside of a century. This very poor country of mine is ill-able to sustain such an expensive method of education. Our state would revive the old village schoolmaster and dot every village with a school both for boys and girls."

 

(Mahatma Gandhi at Chatham House, London, October 20, 1931)

 

Western thought helped to mold western society. But it was Chrisitianity that in many ways help develope the thought. As I pointed out earlier it was Christianity that took the divinity out of nature and paved the way for extended exploitation. This extended exploitative mentality has culminated in capitolism. The evolution of capitalism has created the Corporation who I believe embodies the age of Kali greater than any other single entity at this time. The 'throw away society' that rapes, pillages and plunders mother earth to keep the consumers happy is the result of western culture and our culture does indeed have its roots in Christianity. The war in Iraq is the most recent example of the rape, pillage and plundering that has gone on for centuries. Our society needs to keep the fires burnings at any cost. So the crusade continues into the new century. Those who cannot make the connections have not been paying attention and do not know western history.

 

Concerning the media. It is a fact Christians DO control most of the media in India. I believe the media in America is corporate controlled. Most likly becasue India is imitating the west, corporation control will eventually win out.

8 out of 10 people in America claim to be Christian. SO without doing any research I would say it is a logical guess to say at least 8 out of 10 media outlets are run by Christians today. Media control in the west is becoming smaller and smaller and more controlled. But who are the controllers? How many of the CEO's who sit on the boards of these corporations claim to be Christian? I would guess at least 8 out of 10. I am not saying this is some deliberate conspiracy by Christians to take over the world. It is the Judaeo-Christian psyche at work. It is a type of mentality that has evolved. No there are no secret meetings of an elite underground evil network of want to be world controllers. What is happening is the natural evolution of the exploitive hedonistic consumer society mentality. SO we are uncovering the root of this mentality and where it originated and Christianity is strongly implicated.

 

Now if you want to say these people were not Christians or are not Christians who do these things is like saying some one who chants Hare Krishna, wears the dress and worships Krishna is not a Hare Krishna. If you want to split hairs on who is a real devotee or who is a real Christian that is your freedom. But the people we are talking about do worship Jesus, go to Christian Churches, eat the body and blood of Jesus etc. etc. etc. therefore they are indeed Christians by definition of the word.

 

 

America is considered a Christian nation by every other nation on earth because the population is somewhere around 77 to 80% Bible believing, Jesus worhipping, church going Christians. A very high percentage of this 77 to 80% take the Bible to be the literal word of God.

[Tattvadasa]

 

I think you may have missed my point somewhat.

 

I would like to point out the nature of defect, ie maya and it's workings. But not such much the defects themselves.

 

It is good to look at what fruit each approach will give.

 

By teaching about the nature of defect one can give people knowledge as to the why's of the defects themselves.

 

If one just focus' on the defects themselves more prominently the audience influenced by ignorance will not enlighten, but become more divisive amongst their groupings.

 

The important point is to assist in raising the individuals standing. Focusing on the negative will only create more negative. Just look at the jihadists and the fruit coming from their teachers.

 

You see this is why Srila Prabhupada saw teaching about devotional service as the greatest humanitarian work.

 

In our humble opinion there is a very great segment of western society that has rejected religion altogether based on their dealings with the big three religions. They have recognized the absurdness of the theology at the basis of these religions and their complete disconnect from science and history. These are very intelligent free thinking people who respond very well to logic and reason. Many of them have very high morals and really do want the truth. Many have no understanding of Vaishnavism or Vedic thought and have simply dismissed it altogether as just another religion based on their dealings with the big three. It is really to them we are preaching. NOT to those who adhere to out dated religious systems like Christianity. That is not our audience. Mahaprabhu and his followers must find new ways to reach the masses and no section can be left out. Many people are turning to atheism. This seems to be the evolution of western society. So they must be approached in a different way in order to win them over. If they perceive we promote religious texts that are completely illogical they will at once put us in the category of fanatics.

 

I believe Srila Prabhupada skimmed the cream of Christianity when he came to the west. I am sure there are still some to reach but I do not see that segment of society as a very fertile preaching ground at this time in history. And I know for a fact many young people are being swayed toward atheism because science and history is more and more debunkiing the myths of the Abrahamic relgions. While at the same time in recent history the same scientist are confirming the validity of the Veda. It is now accepted by most scholars and historians that the worship of Krishna pre-dates all others and the Veda is the oldest religious work on earth. Many archaeological discoveries in the past few decades is giving more and more credence to the Veda. We have much going for us at this time in history.

 

So it may appear we are doing a lot of cutting. But that is just the nature of the jungle we are entering.

[Tattvadasa]

http://www.mapsofwar.com/images/Religion.swf