Krsna Story Borrowed from Christianity????

[theist]

 

So it may appear we are doing a lot of cutting. But that is just the nature of the jungle we are entering.

Couldn't help but notice your last line. You are cutting the wrong thing. When one wants to cross through a jungle he doesn't waste time cutting down any big trees he happens upon, rather he concentrates on cutting the vines that are immediately in his way (his own attachments to matter). It is foolish to try to cut down the whole jungle tree by tree. That would be over-cutting which is analagous to your over-thinking on this subject.

 

IOW's, don't spend time cutting away at all the false religiousity that you see in the world and instead concentrate on cutting away the false religiousity that you are bound with and which obscures your own understanding of the self and Superself.

 

"Dont bother with pointing out the splinter in another's eye while forgeting to take the log from your own."

[Tattvadasa]

If that were the attitude then Madhva Acharya would never have succeeded. Ramanuja Acharya would not have succeeded. Bhaktisiddhanta would not have succeeded.Baladeva Viyabhusana would not have validated our sampradaya. And on an on.

 

You are underthinking and mimicking the attitude of those you defend and you obviously have not studied the history of Vaishnavism. Debate and defeating opposing theology has its roots in Vedic thought and has always been a way to broadcast Vaishnava movements and other Vedic rooted movements.

 

We only point to individuals when it is absolutly necesary and stick to theologies and misconceptions and cut away at them. However of course on occasion we must name a fantatical individual who imbibes what he has learned from his scripture. I am sure no Christian would mind if we criticize persons such as Osama Bin Ladin. However when the same fanatacism is pointed out in Christianity we are the bad guys.

 

We do not care for the politcally correct Rodney King 'can't we all just get along' sampradaya.

 

Bible theology breeds fanatcism.

 

But under-thinkers will have a hard time digesting this. Especially those sentimentally attached to the Bible story.

[Tattvadasa]

 

 

The important point is to assist in raising the individuals standing. Focusing on the negative will only create more negative. Just look at the jihadists and the fruit coming from their teachers.

 

 

You call defeating in argument and logic those who put forward doctrines that breed Jihadists focusing on the negative? I fail to catch your logic here. What we are doing will help eliminate Jihadist mentality by destroying the dogmas and doctrines that breed it.

[bija]

I can see we must beg to differ in these points prabhu. Thank you for the discussion and debate on the methods to bring love of God to the world.

I have shared all my thoughts in relation to your subject matter...thank you for your time.

 

yours...bija.

[Tattvadasa]

 

I can see we must beg to differ in these points prabhu. Thank you for the discussion and debate on the methods to bring love of God to the world.

I have shared all my thoughts in relation to your subject matter...thank you for your time.

 

yours...bija.

 

Thank you for your input. As you know even in the spiritual world there is sometimes disagreement.

 

Glories to Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga.

[Tattvadasa]

 

I think you may have missed my point somewhat.

 

I would like to point out the nature of defect, ie maya and it's workings. But not such much the defects themselves.

 

It is good to look at what fruit each approach will give.

 

By teaching about the nature of defect one can give people knowledge as to the why's of the defects themselves.

 

If one just focus' on the defects themselves more prominently the audience influenced by ignorance will not enlighten, but become more divisive amongst their groupings.

 

The important point is to assist in raising the individuals standing. Focusing on the negative will only create more negative. Just look at the jihadists and the fruit coming from their teachers.

 

You see this is why Srila Prabhupada saw teaching about devotional service as the greatest humanitarian work.

Ok so bija seems to be bowing out in a dignified manner. But for those still watching here is some validation for what we are doing.

 

 

Lets not forget Mahaprabhu himself engaged in such 'negative' activity. When the sankirtana was curtailed by the Kazi, Mahaprabhu organized cvil protest and he was not afraid to argue issues.

 

CC Adi 17.6: By dint of pride in His education, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, not caring for anyone else, defeated all kinds of learned scholars while executing His studies.

 

And he said...

 

CC Adi 17.165: "Since you Muslims cannot bring killed cows back to life, you are responsible for killing them. Therefore you are going to hell; there is no way for your deliverance.

 

CC Adi 17.166: "Cow-killers are condemned to rot in hellish life for as many thousands of years as there are hairs on the body of the cow.

 

CC Adi 17.167: "There are many mistakes and illusions in your scriptures. Their compilers, not knowing the essence of knowledge, gave orders that were against reason and argument."

 

And the same mistakes and illusion can be found in the other Abrahamic religious texts like the Bible and Torah. THere is nothing offensive about pointing this out.

[Kanaka]

 

http://www.mapsofwar.com/images/Religion.swf

 

Thanks for the link.

Interesting flash movie but it is not correct. But as least Krishna is recognized as being the first to introduce religion on the planet. But they leave out the Zoroastrians that appeared before Abraham and Hinduism was mcuh bigger than shown on the movie. Zoroastrianism is the big connection western historians still ignore even with all the evidence at their hands they continue to ignore the Zoroastrian influence on Judaism. Another movie much better should be done and the Vaishnavas should challenge these omissions by the theologians, historians and scientist. We should be in their face about it until we are heard and the real history of religion is told.

[Tattvadasa]

Yes I agree. The movie could have been more accurate.

 

Telling the real story of religion on the planet can only help Mahaprabhus cause. The Vaishnavas have no reason to white wash anything. We have nothing to hide. Telliing the truth about the Abrahamic religions will help give us more dignity.

 

The truth is on our side. 'And they shall know the truth and the truth shall release them from concocted religious influence'. As Prabhupada said, 'all religion comes from India'. When people learn the real evolution of western religion they will want to look back at the origins of religion. Such people will look at the Veda. Those with good piety will then naturally conclude the Srimad Bhagavatam is the cream of all religion.

 

I am going to write the burning cross and suggest they do an accurate flash movie.

[Guest guest]

 

Tackle-berry,

I am thinking of a good name for the Christian/Vaishnava apa-sampradaya, those who are trying to mingle Christianity with Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Can you think of any? .

 

Must've missed this. That's an easy one.

 

Name of our new movement: Hare CHRISTna Movement

 

Our sampradaya: We trace our lineage to Holy Ghost, revered Guru of Brahma, Madhva and others. Hence, we call it the Brahma-Madhva-Ghostiya sampradaya. Any similarity to brahma-madhva-gaudiya is coincidental.

 

New Mahamantra: hare christna hare christna christna christna hare hare

hare mary hare mary mary mary hare hare

 

Other mantras: Om Sri Holy Ghostaya NamaH

Om Sri Johnaya NamaH

 

New prayer: Oh Lord, give us our daily breed. Some meat will be alright. Wouldn't mind pizza either. No veggie stuff, though.

 

New christna Greeting: All glories to AC (after christ) Bhaktivedanta Srila Peterpada.

 

Christna pastimes: Nothing much, just hanging around!

[Guruvani]

First, there was the Neanderthal man, then the Cro Magnan and then I think the Christians came right after that?

Oh, I forgot, the Jews were here before the Chrisitians, so that places them somewhere between Christians and Cro Magnan man.

[Tattvadasa]

Good thinking tackle-berry.

 

 

 

Dr. Arnold Joseph Toynbee (1889-1975) the great British historian. His massive research was published in 12 volumes between 1934 and 1961 as `A Study of History'. Author of several books, including Christianity: Among the Religions of the World and One World and India.

 

Toynbee was a major interpreter of human civilization in the 20th century.

 

"It is already becoming clear that a chapter which had a Western beginning will have to have an Indian ending if it is not to end in self-destruction of the human race. At this supremely dangerous moment in human history , the only way of salvation is the ancient Hindu way. Here we have the attitude and spirit that can make it possible for the human race to grow together in to a single family."

 

The tolerance of Hinduism was recognized by Toynbee, who on many occasions contrasted the exclusivity of the Jewish religion, based on the Jewish belief that the Jews are the chosen people with the large tolerance of the Hindus and Buddhist. This plague of exclusiveness, he claims, was inherited by both the Christians and Muslims: hence their lamentable record.

 

Yea they weren't all bad the British. It is too bad this is not the poplular version of India. Instead to this day all the negative stuff the missionaries imagined is still embedded in the psyche of most of us from the west.

 

[Tattvadasa]

...

[gHari]

 

[...]

We should all be like swans??? I agree with this one hundred percent.

[...]

It's time to get beyond the mind and words, time to do as we say and as Srila Bhaktivinoda says in the following link about truly swan-like men:

 

 

 

http://geocities.com/caitanyamahaprabhu/garland1.htm

 

[bija]

 

From Moses To Mahaprabhu

By Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

 

If the reader carefully considers, it will be found that the spiritual science gradually evolved from ancient times and became more simple, more clear and more condensed. The more impurities arising from time and place are removed, the more the beauties of the spiritual science brightly shine before us. This spiritual science took birth in the land of kusha grass on the banks of the Sarasvati river in Brahmavarta. As it gradually gained strength, this spiritual science spent its childhood in the abode of Badarikashram, which is covered with snow. It spent its boyhood in Naimisharanya on the banks of the Gomati river and its youth on the beautiful banks of the Kaveri river in the province of Dravida. The spiritual science ayyained maturity in Navadvip, on the banks of the Ganges, which purifies the universe.

 

By studying the history of the world, it is found that the spiritual science reached its peak in Navadvip. The Supreme Absolute Truth is the only object of love for the living entities. Unless one worhips Him with attachment, however, the living entity can never attain Him. Even if a person gives up all affection for this world and thinks of the Supreme Lord, He is still not easily achieved. He is controlled and attained by transcendental mellows alone. These mellows are of five types - shanta, dasya, sakya, vatsalya and madhurya.

 

The first mellow, shanta, is the stage in which the living entity surpasses the pains of material existence and situates himself in transcendence. In that state there is a little happiness, but no feeling of independence. At that time the relationship between the practitioner and the Lord is not yet established.

 

Dasya rasa is the second mellow. It contains all the ingradients of shanta rasa as well as affection. "The Lord is my master, and I am His eternal servant". This type of relationship is found in dasya rasa. No one cares much for any of the best things of this world unless they are connected with affection. Therefore dasya rasa is superior to shanta rasa in many ways.

 

Sakya is superior to dasya. In dasya rasa there is a thorn in the form of awe and reverence, but the main ornament in sakya rasa is the feeling of friendship in equality. Among the servants, one who is a friend is superior. There is no doubt about it. In sakya rasa all the wealth of shanta and dasya is included.

 

It is easy to understand that vatsalya is superior to sakya. A son gives more affection and happiness than any friend. Therefore in vatsalya rasa we find the wealth of four rasas. Although vatsalya rasa is superior to these other rasas, it appears insgnificant before madhurya rasa. There may be many secrets unknown between father and son, but this not the case between husband and wife. Therefore, if we deeply consider, it will be seen that all the above-mentioned rasas attain perfection within madhurya rasa.

 

If we go through the histories of these five rasas, it is clearly understood that shanta rasa was seen in the beginning days of India. When the soul was not satisfied after performing sacrifices with material ingredients, then transcendentalists like Sanaka, Sanatana, Sanat-kumara, Sananda, Narada and Lord Shiva all became detached from the material world, situated in transcendence and realized shanta rasa.

 

Much later, dasya rasa manifested in Hanuman, the servant of Sri Ramachandra. That same dasya rasa gradually expanded in the northwest and manifested in a great personality named Moses.

 

In the age of Dvapara, Uddhava and Arjuna became the qualified authorities of sakhya rasa. They preached this rasa throughout the world. Gradually tha rasa expanded up to the Arabian countries and touched the heart of Mohammed, the knower of religious principles.

 

Vatsalya rasa manifested throughout India in different forms at different times. Among the different forms, vatsalya mixed with opulence crossed India and appeared in a great personality named Jesus Christ, who was a preacher of Jewish religious principles.

 

Madhurya rasa first shone brightly in Braj. It is extremely rare for this rasa to enter the hearts of conditioned souls, because this rasa tends to remain with qualified, pure living entities. This confidential rasa was preached by Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, the moon of Navadvipa, along with His followers.

 

Till now, this rasa has not crossed beyond India. Recently a scholar from England named Newman realized something about this rasa and wrote a book about it. The people of Europe and America have not been satisfied with vatsalya rasa mixed with opulence as preached by Jesus Christ. I hope, by the grace of the Lord, in a very short time they will become attached to drinking the intoxicating nectar of madhurya rasa.

 

It has been seen tha any rasa that appears in India eventually spreads to the western countries, therefore madhurya rasa will soon be preached throughout the world. Just as the sun rises first in India and gradually spreads its lights to the West, the matchless splendor of spiritual truth appears first in India and gradually spreads to the Western countries.

[bija]

Srimad Bhagavatam: "As a bee takes honey from many different flowers, so a wise man takes the truth from many different great and small books"

Purport by Bhaktivinoda: In this way the Vaisnava philosophers find the truth in books like the Vedas and Srimad-Bhagavatam. In the less important books, the books written by materialistic philosophers, and in the very important books, the books that truly explain the science of the soul, the Vaisnavas find the real truth….(from Tattva-Viveka Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura)

 

 

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Tattva-Viveka Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura part 1.doc

Tattva-Viveka Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura part 2.doc

[Guest guest]

After 1750 A.D., the influence of the Sankirtana Movement seemed to wane. Many sects of sahajiyas (cheap pseudo-devotees) sprouted up, each claiming to be the true purveyors of Vaishnava-dharma (the religion of Lord Vishnu or Krishna). Because of their bad character, the sahajiyas brought disrepute upon the pure movement of love of God begun by Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. In the 1800's, an eternally perfect devotee of Krishna descended from the spiritual world to the material world to revive the Sankirtana Movement and to initiate its expansion beyond the borders of India. This was Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur.

 

As the headmaster of the Medinipura high school, Kedaranatha Datta (Bhaktivinoda Thakur) looked into the various religious sects, their philosophies and practices. He could see that many of them were taking it all very cheaply. He came to understand that the only real religion that had ever been established in Bengal was that of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu; unfortunately at present, His movement was not well-represented. Due to the misrepresentation, and coruptions and influence of the 'Apa-sampradayas'...

 

The Thakura made an onslaught against those who belonged to the apasampradayas who were polluting Gaudiya Vaisnavism by basically thirteen deviant philosophies - Aula, Baula (2 types), Karttabhaja, Neda, Daravesa, Sani, Sahajiya, Sakhibheki, Smarta, Jatagosani, Ativadi, Cudadhari and Gauranga-Nagari. These deviant groups, mostly because of their boldness, had been seen by the public as the Gaudiya Sampradaya, though actually none were following the pure Vaisnava regulative principles strictly, as laid down by the followers of Sri Krsna Caitanya (namely the Goswamis). Distinguishing himself as one not afraid to point out the defects of the sahajiya schools Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur gained the reputation as a fierce fighter against the deviant theologies promoted in the name of the Sankirtana Movement.

 

By the end of the last part of the 20th century after the Gaudiya Sampradaya had been established in the western countries by Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, some persons began mixing other philosophies with the pure teachings of the Gaudiya Sampradaya thereby again tainting Mahaprbhus pure movement. Giving great importance to books considered spiritually void by the followers of Mahaprabhu some deviant idiologies again began appearing and their proponents began boldly preaching their misconceptions along with old sahajiya groups oozing their way into the west.

 

Some of the misconceptions propounded never heard before...

 

1. Jesus Christ is an incarnation of Lord Brahma.

2. Jesus Christ taught Bhakti Yoga.

3. The Christian Bible is revealed scripture.

4. The God mentioned in the Christian Bible is Krishna.

5. The names of the God mentioned in the Christian Bible are transcendental names of God on the same platform as the names of Krishna or Vishnu.

 

the story continues....

 

Praying for a new Bhaktivinode Thakur to appear.