Guest guest Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 *Dear sri vaishNava perunthagaiyeer, respected sadagopan iyengar swamy, and smt. Jayasree saranathan madam* Read the rejoinder of sri sadagopan swamy and madam, with interest. I would request sri swamy to quote the periyavachan pillai comments / version, as I am unable to locate same in bharathaadhi thani slokam book [78 pages] available in internet. [of course the copy is a little bad as same is not scanned with care - or may be the original from which this was scanned was also old / bad] On the kousalyaa's sOkham and the manu dharma on the age of upanayanam, my article as a sequel to the series of articles in june / july 2005 between jayasree madam and myself is reproduced below. [Raamabhakthi and oppiliappan archives]. On this 'Tat chakaara uttare kaavye' and that birth of lava kusa I will add points in next mail since the length of post applies brake. * * *Quote: * *MGV's reply on 3 july 05: * Dear Jayasree Saranathan madam and sri vaishnava perunthagaiyeer, On the point of relying on age of 17 based on slOkam 2-20–45 of ayOdhya kaaNdam, by Prof: Vartak, I have to add following. First what Smt. Jayasree said. Quote: Coming to the points raised in your mail, Prof Varthak has been right in having taken the age of 17 as the time when the coronation was fixed. The sloka, he has quoted in support of this, runs like this. "dasha sapta ca varSaaNi tava jaatasya raaghava | asitaani prakaankSantyaa mayaa duhkha parikSayam || 2-20-45 "Oh, Rama! I have been waiting for 17 years after your 2nd birth of thread ceremony, with the hope that my troubles will disappear at one time or the other." (unquote) Please note the word used by Kausalya. "tava jaatasya" has been translated as the thread ceremony here. I request scholars to explain the usage of this term to mean the thread ceremony. Unquote: MGV: I would like to add from same 20th sargam next slokam thadhakshayam mahaa dhukham nOtsahE sahithum chiram | viprakaaram sapathneenaam Evam jeerNaapi raaghava || 2-20-46 meaning: Oh, Rama! In this old age, I cannot bear insult from co-wives and this unending sorrow for a long time. sthhiram hi noonam hrudhayam mama aayasam | na bhidhyathE yadh bhuvi na avadheeryathE | anEna dhukhEna cha dhEham arpitham | dhruvam hi akaalE maraNam na vidhyathE || 2-20-51 Meaning: This grief has gone into my body. Even then, my heart is stable. It has not broken into pieces and fallen on the floor. It is indeed made of iron. There is no untimely death, it is certain". Comment: 1. In the mood of so much grief, mental strain and agony of separation, perhaps the figure of 17, what a mother says, can be taken as incorrect. That too, of mother kousalya, when she is sorrowful, for she is seeing her son off, when she was just anticipating the happy news of raamaa's coronation. She says my heart is of iron and not breaking – so much sorrow. In that stage, chances are very bright that figures are likely to be misquoted. [but that 17 years is also correct as per derivation given below]. 2. Against this scene, Just compare this with a wife introducing herself in clear terms to a 3rd party, "that we lived happily for 12 years after our marriage and in the 13th year, king monarch proposed the coronation" as given in my earlier post. If those are to be discounted – means something concrete is being brushed aside. 3. Further one more argument can be advanced – seethaa is also in a stressed mood after having heard raama is in trouble against the golden deer, because his voice of distress. But in reality, seethaa is not that grieving situation, like kousalya, for she is in her clear terms. That is understood from the way she introduces herself to raavanan, carrying out the athithi samskaaram to raavaNan thinking that he is a real sanyaasi. Later when he reveals himself as 10 headed only, she becomes afraid. On to this 'jaata' – Monier Williams dictionary gives following meanings. *jÄta *** *jÄtá* mfn. (√*jan* • ifc. PÄṇ.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#PÄṇ>6-2, 171) born, brought into existence by (loc.), engendered by (instr. or abl.) RV. <http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#RV>&c'>http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#RV>&c • grown, produced, arisen, caused, appeared ib.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#ib> • ifc. (cf. PÄṇ. 2-2, 5 KÄÅ›.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#KÄÅ›>; 36 VÄrtt. <http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#VÄrtt>1 ; vi, 2, 170) See *mÄsa-*, *saptâha-*, &c • appearing on or in VarBá¹›S.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#VarBá¹›S>lÄ«, 5 ff • destined for (dat.) RV.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#RV>iv,'>http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#RV>iv, 20, 6 ; ix, 94, 4 • turning to (dat.) SÄh.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#SÄh>iii, 58/59 • happened, become, present, apparent, manifest TS.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#TS> VS. <http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#VS> &c • belonging to (gen.) RV.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#RV>i,'>http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#RV>i, 83, 5 ; viii, 62, 10 • ready at hand Pañcat.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#Pañcat>ii,'>http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#Pañcat>ii, 16 • possessed of (instr.) MBh.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#MBh>iv,'>http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#MBh>iv, 379 • often ifc. instead of in comp. (cf. PÄṇ. 2-2, 36 VÄrtt.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#VÄrtt>1 ; vi, 2, 170 f • g. *Ähitâgny-Ädi*), e.g. *kiṇa-*, *danta-*, &c., qq.vv • m. a son RV.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#RV>ii,'>http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#RV>ii, 25, 1 AV. <http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#AV> xi, 9, 6 ÅšBr.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#ÅšBr>xiv Pañcat.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#Pañcat> • a living being (said of men, rarely of gods) RV.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#RV>iv,'>http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#RV>iv, 2, 2 ; v, 15, 2 ; x, 12, 3 AV. <http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#AV> xviii VS. <http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#VS> viii, 36 • N. of a son of BrahmÄ PadmaP.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#PadmaP>v • n. a living being, creature RV.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#RV> • birth, origin, i, 156, 2 and 163, 1 ; iii, 31, 3 • race, kind, sort, class, species, viii, 39, 6 AV.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#AV>&c • a multitude or collection of things forming a class (chiefly ifc., e.g. * karma-*', the whole aggregate of actions' Mn.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#Mn>vii,'>http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#Mn>vii, 61/62 *sukha-*, 'anything or everything included under the name pleasure' GÄ«t.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#GÄ«t>x, 3) Mn. <http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#Mn> ix MBh. <http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#MBh> &c • individuality, specific condition (*vyakta*) L.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#L> • = *-karman* NÄrS.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#NÄrS> • (impers. with double instr.) it turned out or happened that RÄjat.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#RÄjat>v, 364 [Page 417, Column 3] • (*Ä*), f. a daughter W.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#W> • [cf.-? ; Germ. *Kind* ; Lith. *gentis*.] So on a first study this 'jaatha' means born, brought into existence. But how this jaatha is taken as second birth is some thing to be probed further.. On a further analysis, the 'jaatha karman' is performed immediately or on the day of a child's birth. That is confirmed as in 'manu smruthi' chapter 2, which reads as follows. Quote: 2.2.1 Jatakarman Before the navel-string is cut, the Jatakarman (birth-rite) must be performed for a male (child); and while sacred formulas are being recited, he must be fed with gold, honey, and butter. [*v.*2.29.]. unquote: Now smt. Jayasree's point: quote: If it is taken as jaata karma - naama karma done soon after birth, Raama's age can be literally taken as 17 as per this sloka. Again if we look into the Valmiki Ramayana for the time of thread ceremony for Raama, we come across this verse. "braahmaNaan bhojayaamaasa pauraan jaanapadaan api | udadad braahmaNaanaam cha ratnaugham amalam bahu || 1-18-23 teSaam janma kriya aadIni sarva karmaaNi akaarayat | The king feasted Brahmans, urbanites and villagers and he gifted many valuable gems to Brahmans in an unlimited way, and all the rituals of birth and ceremonies sequel to it like naming ceremony, first-food-feeding ceremony, first-hair-removal ceremony, and sacred thread ceremony are performed in respect of the princes. [1-18-23, 24a] The years in which these have been done is not mentioned, but sounds that the thread ceremony was pretty early considering the sequence of ceremonies mentioned in this verse. Unquote: MGV: I wish to add the next slOkam of baala kaaNdam same sargam - sarvE vEdha vidha: sooraa: sarvE lOkahithE rathaa: || 1-18-25 sarvE j~naanOpasampannaa: sarvE samudhithaa guNai: | Meaning: All the princes are scholars in VEdhaas, valiant ones, all are interested in the welfare of the world, all are intellectuals and all of them possess an air of probity. [1-18-25b, 26a]. Point: So, one to become qualified to study vEdhaas, as per manu smruthi, they should be initiated. That has to be done, as per manu smruthi, in the age of SIX [6] for kshathriyaas [raama being a kshathriya]. See portion of manu smruthi *Quote: **Part 2: The Brahmacari Asrama* 2.3 Upanayana 2.3.1 The time In the eighth year after conception, one should perform the initiation (upanayana) of a Brahmana, in the eleventh after conception (that) of a Kshatriya, but in the twelfth that of a Vaisya. [*v.*2.36.] (The initiation) of a Brahmana who desires proficiency in sacred learning should take place in the fifth (year after conception), *(that) of a Kshatriya who wishes to become powerful in the sixth,* (and that) of a Vaisya who longs for (success in his) business in the eighth. [*v.*2.37.] The (time for the) Savitri (initiation) of a Brahmana does not pass until the completion of the sixteenth year (after conception), *of a Kshatriya until the completion of the twenty-second,* and of a Vaisya until the completion of the twenty-fourth. [*v.*2.38.] After those (periods men of) these three (castes) who have not received the sacrament at the proper time, become Vratyas (outcasts), excluded from the Savitri (initiation) and despised by the Aryans. [*v.*2.39.] With such men, if they have not been purified according to the rule, let no Brahmana ever, even in times of distress, form a connexion either through the Veda or by marriage. [*v.*2.40.] 4.3 First, second & third birth According to the injunction of the revealed texts the first birth of an Aryan is from (his natural) mother, the second (happens) on the tying of the girdle of Munja grass, and the third on the initiation to (the performance of) a (Srauta) sacrifice. [*v.*2.169.] Among those (three) the birth which is symbolised by the investiture with the girdle of Munja grass, is his birth for the sake of the Veda; they declare that in that (birth) the Savitri (verse) is his mother and the teacher his father. [*v.*2.170.] They call the teacher (the pupil's) father because he gives the Veda; for nobody can perform a (sacred) rite before the investiture with the girdle of Munja grass. [*v.*2.171.] (He who has not been initiated) should not pronounce (any) Vedic text excepting (those required for) the performance of funeral rites, since he is on a level with a Sudra before his birth from the Veda. [*v.*2.172.] The (student) who has been initiated must be instructed in the performance of the vows, and gradually learn the Veda, observing the prescribed rules. [ *v.*2.173.] Whatever dress of skin, sacred thread, girdle, staff, and lower garment are prescribed for a (student at the initiation), the like (must again be used) at the (performance of the) vows. [*v.*2.174.] Unquote: Note: the manu smrithi translation is taken from internet. MGV: Now, my point is as stated by kousalya she waited for 17 years, after raamaa's second birth – that is the initiation in study of vEdhaas is done to raama as per manu smruthi or saasthraas, [we can definitely take that, for raama, the rituals are all done as per saasthraas – that was derived from the composition of the gurus and the super cabinet, king dhasaratha had, consisting of vasishta and other rishis] - not like kali – this era. So now raama is 24 – for kousalya waited for 17 years after initiation in study of vEdhaas at the age of 6, and now it is 18th year – the period of coronation and being exiled. This CAN DEFINITELY BE TAKEN AS CORRECT. The other point of raamaa's marriage is at 12 + lived for 12 years as per seetha slokam already quoted and repeated here, also more or less tallies. So this 'thava jaathasya' as the second birth - thread ceremony also appears ok. mama bharthaa mahaathEjaa vayasaa pancha vimsaka || 3-47-10 aSTaa dasha hi varshaaNi mama janmani gaNyathE | Meaning: My great-resplendent husband was of twenty-five years of age [at that time] and to me, eighteen years are reckoned up from my birth. But leaving for forest at 17 is the thing, which is not ok. So we have to look for more evidence. The intention of writing this, is not to bring in any controversy etc but go into some more 'depth' of raamaayaNam. Dhasan Vasudevan m.g. -- unquote -- Vasudevan MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 SrI: Respected Swamin, I agreed with your clarification and that was a basis for me writing in my recent mail that 17 years are calculated above Rama's upanayanam - year. But given that he was 25 (as per Sita's contention) it points to his 8th year as the year of his upanayanam. 8+17 = 25 looks reasonable, not 6+17. The possibility is that he started at 8, said to be the age of destiny taking control over the person . (how destiny plays with their lives is told by Sita in Sundhara khandam) Since he was also a prince to be readied to take over the kingdom, the possibility is that they would not have delayed his education but instead started at the time permitted in the usual course. Again we can stretch our analysis to another level too, on the basis of who is more entitled to vedic education, a kshathriya or a Brahmin on the basis of such an argument in Mahabharatha, which places superior status on khshathriya over a brahmin. By that we can establish that Rama indeed has had his upanayanam like a brahmin at the age of 8. Moving to teh otehr issue, it is also natural to expect Kausalya to count the years from when he became independent (from his re-birth upon upanayanam) waiting for the day of his coronation. It is said in Valimiki Ramayana that the people had been waiting for the king to transfer the rule to Rama. So not only Kausalya, but all citizens must have been counting the years from the time he was declared to be re-born. May be the 10 + 7 (with cha) has to be viewed as this. They waited for the coronation to be held 10 years after his dwija birth. Now 7 more years also passed off and at last the good news about the coronation. I concur >> The intention of writing this, is not to bring in any controversy etc but go into some more 'depth' of raamaayaNam. pranams. jayasree , "MG Vasudevan" <vasudevanmg wrote: > > *Dear sri vaishNava perunthagaiyeer, respected sadagopan iyengar swamy, and > smt. Jayasree saranathan madam* > > > > Read the rejoinder of sri sadagopan swamy and madam, with interest. I would > request sri swamy to quote the periyavachan pillai comments / version, as I > am unable to locate same in bharathaadhi thani slokam book [78 pages] > available in internet. [of course the copy is a little bad as same is not > scanned with care - or may be the original from which this was scanned was > also old / bad] > > > > On the kousalyaa's sOkham and the manu dharma on the age of upanayanam, my > article as a sequel to the series of articles in june / july 2005 between > jayasree madam and myself is reproduced below. [Raamabhakthi and oppiliappan > archives]. On this 'Tat chakaara uttare kaavye' and that birth of lava kusa > I will add points in next mail since the length of post applies brake. > > * * > > *Quote: * > > *MGV's reply on 3 july 05: * > > Dear Jayasree Saranathan madam and sri vaishnava perunthagaiyeer, > > > > On the point of relying on age of 17 based on slOkam 2-20â€"45 of ayOdhya > kaaNdam, by Prof: Vartak, I have to add following. > > > > First what Smt. Jayasree said. Quote: > > Coming to the points raised in your mail, Prof Varthak has been right in > having taken the age of 17 as the time when the coronation was fixed. The > sloka, he has quoted in support of this, runs like this. > > > > "dasha sapta ca varSaaNi tava jaatasya raaghava | > > asitaani prakaankSantyaa mayaa duhkha parikSayam || 2-20-45 > > > > "Oh, Rama! I have been waiting for 17 years after your 2nd birth of thread > ceremony, with the hope that my troubles will disappear at one time or the > other." (unquote) > > > > Please note the word used by Kausalya. "tava jaatasya" has been translated > as the thread ceremony here. > > > > I request scholars to explain the usage of this term to mean the thread > ceremony. Unquote: > > > > MGV: I would like to add from same 20th sargam next slokam > > thadhakshayam mahaa dhukham nOtsahE sahithum chiram | > viprakaaram sapathneenaam Evam jeerNaapi raaghava || 2-20-46 > > > > meaning: Oh, Rama! In this old age, I cannot bear insult from co-wives and > this unending sorrow for a long time. > > > > sthhiram hi noonam hrudhayam mama aayasam | na bhidhyathE yadh bhuvi na > avadheeryathE | > anEna dhukhEna cha dhEham arpitham | dhruvam hi akaalE maraNam na vidhyathE > || 2-20-51 > > > > Meaning: This grief has gone into my body. Even then, my heart is stable. It > has not broken into pieces and fallen on the floor. It is indeed made of > iron. There is no untimely death, it is certain". > > > > Comment: 1. In the mood of so much grief, mental strain and agony of > separation, perhaps the figure of 17, what a mother says, can be taken as > incorrect. That too, of mother kousalya, when she is sorrowful, for she is > seeing her son off, when she was just anticipating the happy news of > raamaa's coronation. She says my heart is of iron and not breaking â€" so much > sorrow. In that stage, chances are very bright that figures are likely to be > misquoted. [but that 17 years is also correct as per derivation given > below]. > > > > 2. Against this scene, Just compare this with a wife introducing herself in > clear terms to a 3rd party, "that we lived happily for 12 years after our > marriage and in the 13th year, king monarch proposed the coronation" as > given in my earlier post. If those are to be discounted â€" means something > concrete is being brushed aside. > > > > 3. Further one more argument can be advanced â€" seethaa is also in a stressed > mood after having heard raama is in trouble against the golden deer, because > his voice of distress. But in reality, seethaa is not that grieving > situation, like kousalya, for she is in her clear terms. That is understood > from the way she introduces herself to raavanan, carrying out the athithi > samskaaram to raavaNan thinking that he is a real sanyaasi. Later when he > reveals himself as 10 headed only, she becomes afraid. > > > > On to this 'jaata' â€" Monier Williams dictionary gives following meanings. > > *jÄta *** > > *jÄtá* mfn. (√*jan* > > • ifc. PÄṇ.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#PÄṇ>6-2, > 171) born, brought into existence by (loc.), engendered by (instr. or > abl.) RV. <http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#RV>&c'>http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#RV>&c > > • grown, produced, arisen, caused, appeared > ib.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#ib> > > • ifc. (cf. PÄṇ. 2-2, 5 > KÄÅ›.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#KÄÅ›>; > 36 > VÄrtt. <http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#VÄrtt>1 > ; vi, 2, 170) See > *mÄsa-*, *saptâha-*, &c > > • appearing on or in > VarBá¹›S.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#VarBá¹›S>lÄ«, > 5 ff > > • destined for (dat.) > RV.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#RV>iv,'>http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#RV>iv, > 20, 6 ; ix, 94, 4 > > • turning to (dat.) > SÄh.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#SÄh>iii, > 58/59 > > • happened, become, present, apparent, manifest > TS.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#TS> > VS. <http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#VS> &c > > • belonging to (gen.) > RV.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#RV>i,'>http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#RV>i, > 83, 5 ; viii, 62, 10 > > • ready at hand > Pañcat.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#Pañcat>ii,'>http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#Pañcat>ii, > 16 > > • possessed of (instr.) > MBh.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#MBh>iv,'>http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#MBh>iv, > 379 > > • often ifc. instead of in comp. (cf. PÄṇ. 2-2, 36 > VÄrtt.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#VÄrtt>1 > ; vi, 2, 170 f > > • g. *Ähitâgny-Ädi*), e.g. *kiṇa-*, *danta-*, &c., qq.vv > > • m. a son RV.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#RV>ii,'>http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#RV>ii, > 25, 1 > AV. <http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#AV> xi, > 9, 6 ÅšBr.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#ÅšBr>xiv > Pañcat.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#Pañcat> > > • a living being (said of men, rarely of gods) > RV.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#RV>iv,'>http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#RV>iv, > 2, 2 ; v, 15, 2 ; x, 12, 3 > AV. <http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#AV> xviii > VS. <http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#VS> viii, > 36 > > • N. of a son of BrahmÄ > PadmaP.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#PadmaP>v > > • n. a living being, creature > RV.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#RV> > > • birth, origin, i, 156, 2 and 163, 1 ; iii, 31, 3 > > • race, kind, sort, class, species, viii, 39, 6 > AV.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#AV>&c > > • a multitude or collection of things forming a class (chiefly ifc., e.g. * > karma-*', the whole aggregate of actions' > Mn.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#Mn>vii,'>http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#Mn>vii, > 61/62 > *sukha-*, 'anything or everything included under the name pleasure' > GÄ«t.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#GÄ«t>x, > 3) > Mn. <http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#Mn> ix > MBh. <http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#MBh> &c > > • individuality, specific condition (*vyakta*) > L.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#L> > > • = *-karman* NÄrS.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#NÄrS> > > • (impers. with double instr.) it turned out or happened that > RÄjat.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#RÄjat>v, > 364 [Page > 417, Column 3] > > • (*Ä*), f. a daughter > W.<http://students.washington.edu/prem/mw/worksAuthorsAbbrs.html#W> > > • [cf.-? ; Germ. *Kind* ; Lith. *gentis*.] > > > > So on a first study this 'jaatha' means born, brought into existence. But > how this jaatha is taken as second birth is some thing to be probed further. > > > > On a further analysis, the 'jaatha karman' is performed immediately or on > the day of a child's birth. That is confirmed as in 'manu smruthi' chapter > 2, which reads as follows. > Quote: 2.2.1 Jatakarman > > Before the navel-string is cut, the Jatakarman (birth-rite) must be > performed for a male (child); and while sacred formulas are being recited, > he must be fed with gold, honey, and butter. [*v.*2.29.]. unquote: > > > > Now smt. Jayasree's point: quote: If it is taken as jaata karma - naama > karma done soon after birth, Raama's age can be literally taken as 17 as per > this sloka. Again if we look into the Valmiki Ramayana for the time of > thread ceremony for Raama, we come across this verse. > > > > "braahmaNaan bhojayaamaasa pauraan jaanapadaan api | > > udadad braahmaNaanaam cha ratnaugham amalam bahu || 1-18-23 > > teSaam janma kriya aadIni sarva karmaaNi akaarayat | > > > > The king feasted Brahmans, urbanites and villagers and he gifted many > valuable gems to Brahmans in an unlimited way, and all the rituals of birth > and ceremonies sequel to it like naming ceremony, first-food-feeding > ceremony, first-hair-removal ceremony, and sacred thread ceremony are > performed in respect of the princes. [1-18-23, 24a] > > > > The years in which these have been done is not mentioned, but sounds that > the thread ceremony was pretty early considering the sequence of ceremonies > mentioned in this verse. Unquote: > > > > MGV: I wish to add the next slOkam of baala kaaNdam same sargam - > > sarvE vEdha vidha: sooraa: sarvE lOkahithE rathaa: || 1-18-25 > sarvE j~naanOpasampannaa: sarvE samudhithaa guNai: | > > > > Meaning: All the princes are scholars in VEdhaas, valiant ones, all are > interested in the welfare of the world, all are intellectuals and all of > them possess an air of probity. [1-18-25b, 26a]. > > > > Point: So, one to become qualified to study vEdhaas, as per manu smruthi, > they should be initiated. That has to be done, as per manu smruthi, in the > age of SIX [6] for kshathriyaas [raama being a kshathriya]. See portion of > manu smruthi > > > > *Quote: **Part 2: The Brahmacari Asrama* > 2.3 Upanayana 2.3.1 The time > > In the eighth year after conception, one should perform the initiation > (upanayana) of a Brahmana, in the eleventh after conception (that) of a > Kshatriya, but in the twelfth that of a Vaisya. [*v.*2.36.] > > > > (The initiation) of a Brahmana who desires proficiency in sacred learning > should take place in the fifth (year after conception), *(that) of a > Kshatriya who wishes to become powerful in the sixth,* (and that) of a > Vaisya who longs for (success in his) business in the eighth. [*v.*2.37.] > > > > The (time for the) Savitri (initiation) of a Brahmana does not pass until > the completion of the sixteenth year (after conception), *of a Kshatriya > until the completion of the twenty-second,* and of a Vaisya until the > completion of the twenty-fourth. [*v.*2.38.] > > > > After those (periods men of) these three (castes) who have not received the > sacrament at the proper time, become Vratyas (outcasts), excluded from the > Savitri (initiation) and despised by the Aryans. [*v.*2.39.] > > > > With such men, if they have not been purified according to the rule, let no > Brahmana ever, even in times of distress, form a connexion either through > the Veda or by marriage. [*v.*2.40.] > > > 4.3 First, second & third birth > > According to the injunction of the revealed texts the first birth of an > Aryan is from (his natural) mother, the second (happens) on the tying of the > girdle of Munja grass, and the third on the initiation to (the performance > of) a (Srauta) sacrifice. [*v.*2.169.] > > > > Among those (three) the birth which is symbolised by the investiture with > the girdle of Munja grass, is his birth for the sake of the Veda; they > declare that in that (birth) the Savitri (verse) is his mother and the > teacher his father. [*v.*2.170.] > > > > They call the teacher (the pupil's) father because he gives the Veda; for > nobody can perform a (sacred) rite before the investiture with the girdle of > Munja grass. [*v.*2.171.] > > > > (He who has not been initiated) should not pronounce (any) Vedic text > excepting (those required for) the performance of funeral rites, since he is > on a level with a Sudra before his birth from the Veda. [*v.*2.172.] > > > > The (student) who has been initiated must be instructed in the performance > of the vows, and gradually learn the Veda, observing the prescribed rules. [ > *v.*2.173.] > > > > Whatever dress of skin, sacred thread, girdle, staff, and lower garment are > prescribed for a (student at the initiation), the like (must again be used) > at the (performance of the) vows. [*v.*2.174.] > > > > Unquote: > > > > Note: the manu smrithi translation is taken from internet. > > > > MGV: Now, my point is as stated by kousalya she waited for 17 years, after > raamaa's second birth â€" that is the initiation in study of vEdhaas is done > to raama as per manu smruthi or saasthraas, [we can definitely take that, > for raama, the rituals are all done as per saasthraas â€" that was derived > from the composition of the gurus and the super cabinet, king dhasaratha > had, consisting of vasishta and other rishis] - not like kali â€" this era. > > > > So now raama is 24 â€" for kousalya waited for 17 years after initiation in > study of vEdhaas at the age of 6, and now it is 18th year â€" the period of > coronation and being exiled. This CAN DEFINITELY BE TAKEN AS CORRECT. > > > > The other point of raamaa's marriage is at 12 + lived for 12 years as per > seetha slokam already quoted and repeated here, also more or less tallies. > So this 'thava jaathasya' as the second birth - thread ceremony also appears > ok. > > > > mama bharthaa mahaathEjaa vayasaa pancha vimsaka || 3-47-10 > aSTaa dasha hi varshaaNi mama janmani gaNyathE | > > > > Meaning: My great-resplendent husband was of twenty-five years of age [at > that time] and to me, eighteen years are reckoned up from my birth. > > > > But leaving for forest at 17 is the thing, which is not ok. So we have to > look for more evidence. The intention of writing this, is not to bring in > any controversy etc but go into some more 'depth' of raamaayaNam. Dhasan > Vasudevan m.g. > > -- unquote > > > -- > Vasudevan MG > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 dasha sapta cha varSHANI tava jAtasya rAghava | AsItAni prakAnkSHantyA mayA duhkhaparikSHayam ||2-20-45|| dasha sapta can also mean sapta dasha (70) or dasha saptams, 10 times 7 (70) [like trissapta of puruSHasUktam, which means 3 times 7=21] Thus, it would be 70, perhaps kausalya's age. rAma, I have waited for seventy years with the hope that my grief will be redeemed after your birth. This is like telling I have waited for 90 years to see my son get nobel prize. dAsan K.S. tAtAchAr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 SrI: My humble pranams. I have a small doubt. I have read your book on Purusha sookhtham and I understand the meaning of trissapta. It is three times seven. But in the context below 'dasha sapta cha varSHANI' why 'cha'? From my very little knowledge of sanskrit, I see it as dasha: saptha: cha, meaning ten and seven. What does ten and seven imply? Ten plus seven or ten times seven? I see a parallel to this Thiruchanda viruttham pasurams, where the addition is indicated by 'um' (ummai-th-thogai, the Tamil equivalent of sanskrit samaasam) and an absence of 'um' (cha) indicates multiplication. Kindly correct me and clarify. With humble pranams, jayasree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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