RE.Help required in understanding a BhAShya quote

[Guest guest]

--- "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk > wrote:

 

> advaitin, "subrahmanian_v"

> <subrahmanian_v wrote:

 

Subbu - Prof. VK gave a very good analogy. Here is what I understand:

Simultaneity here involves the cause-effect relationship. The negation of duality involves an

assertion of singularity or affirmation of non-dual nature of the reality. Affirmation of

non-duality has to be associated with the negation of duality - They can not be sequential - They

are both the same only looking from different angles. Here illumination is clear vision of the

truth.

KshaNa is used in figurative sense to indicates it does not take any time ( it is not the literary

meaning of some momentary time) since both the negation of duality and assertion of singularity

are one and the same.

 

> > [ So also it will be said, `Duality ceases to exist after

> > realization' (Kaarika I.18), for knowledge (as a mental vritti) does

> > not continue for a second moment following the moment of the

> > cessation of duality.]

> >

> > Question: What is the kShaNa 'moment' that the Acharya talks about

> > here?

> > Does the cessation of duality happen in a moment?

>

> VK: Namaste, Subbu-ji. What is your objection to taking it as the

> moment of illumination?

>>And the bhashya says a little further down,

> >

> > // tasmAt pratiShedha-vi~jnAna-pramANa-vyApAra-samakAlA-eva Atmani

> > adhyAropita-antaH-pra~jnatvAdi-anartha-nivrittiriti siddham //

> >

> > [Therefore, the conclusion arrived at is that all evils, such as

> > being `conscious of the internal world', superimposed on the Self,

> > cease simultaneously with the application (i.e. birth) of the

> > instrument (pramAna) (of illumination, sAkshAtkAra) which is nothing

> > but a valid knowledge arising from negation of duality.]

 

These are figurative descriptions that which are beyond description. Realization that I am the

10th man comes immediately when the teacher says you are the tenth man. Is it the birth of a

knowledge. When the teacher says you are the tenth man, that very moment the knowledge that 'I am

the tenth man that I have been searching for' is immediate. You can call it as beginning of the

knowledge of the truth or end of the ignorance of suffering or evil. Any description falls short

of the truth. The moment (kshaNa) I touch the wire I will get a shock - I get the illumination

that the wire is live and if I have any ignorance about the wire is gone with the illumination of

the fact that the wire is live. Now you can apply your simultaneity or sequentially or any

process. It is immediate means no medium is required for knowledge to takes place. Of course I

can describe it by a process but the fact and the experience is beyond the process.

 

Bhashya has to use words to describe the state - Here the negation of duality is the negation of

the reality to duality - not elimination of the apparent duality. Knowledge does not eliminate

appearence - it can only eliminate the ignorance that causes assignment of reality to duality.

Appearence can get eliminated only if the instruments that cause apperence (upaadhis - Body-mind

complex) get eliminated.

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

[Guest guest]

advaitin, kuntimaddi sadananda

<kuntimaddisada wrote:

 

> Subbu - Prof. VK gave a very good analogy. Here is what I

understand:

 

 

Namaste SarvashrI Tony ji, Prof.VK ji and Sada ji,

 

Thanks for the sincere response. While Tony ji has upheld

his 'ajAtivAda' (nothing ever happened!), Prof.VK ji's reply

reflects the position of the traditional Advaita Vedanta as taught

by Acharya Shankara and the ParamAchArya of Kanchi presented

recently on this List. Upon reflecting on the questions, i

remembered that i had made a posting (msg. No. 33538 dt. 1st Oct.

2006) which covers the issue in some detail. This may be perused by

those interested.

 

There is not much to disagree in what you, Sada ji, have said. I

shall make my responses within [..] below:

 

Sada ji says:

> Simultaneity here involves the cause-effect relationship. The

negation of duality involves an

> assertion of singularity or affirmation of non-dual nature of the

reality. Affirmation of

> non-duality has to be associated with the negation of duality -

They can not be sequential - They

> are both the same only looking from different angles. Here

illumination is clear vision of the

> truth.

 

[ Yes. The above analysis is quite appropriate. A question arises:

Does the 'clear vision of the Truth' take place or not? If it does

take place, there has to be admitted a time when it happens. No

event takes place outside time. If it is an event, it has to be

within time. If it does not take place, no talk about illumination

and the resultant liberation could be meaningful. It is the

declaration of Vedanta that liberation ensues immediately upon

illumination. (note: 'immediately' does not mean 'without anything

to mediate, like an instrument or wall inbetween the one getting the

illumination and the Truth of which illumination is had. It means

only that there is no time gap between illumination and the

liberation that ensues. )

 

Supposing you do not admit of illumination at a particular time.

Then, you are obviously admitting of a phased illumination. But

even this phased illumination has to attain completion at some time

in order to be considered 'illumination process is over' and you are

illumined. So, the exact time element is inescapable. Supposing a

person has commenced to be illumined (the process going over days,

weeks, months, years or even minutes or moments). When he is half-

way through supposing death occurs. Will there be rebirth or not?

According to Shastra, there will be rebirth because illumination is

said to destroy, burn down, all sanchita karma and as in this phased

illumination sanchita karma is not burnt down, there will be karma

left and the aspirant will have no escape from rebirth. On the

other hand, in a momentous illumination, karma is immediately burnt

away and instantaneous liberation results, ensuring no rebirth. The

Advaita Vedanta Shastra is crystal clear on this. It has not left

the topic hazy. The Gita says: JnAnAgnih sarva karmANi bhasmasAt

kurute...]

 

Sada ji says:

 

> KshaNa is used in figurative sense to indicates it does not take

any time ( it is not the literary

> meaning of some momentary time) since both the negation of duality

and assertion of singularity

> are one and the same.

 

Response:

 

[ Only recently we read that adhyaasa is a fact of life and Shankara

states this explicitly without using any figure of speech.

Naturally, the removal or destruction of adhyAsa by illumination of

the Truth too has to be admitted to be a fact of life and not a

figurative statement. Shankara scores full marks on this count

too. He does not leave the fact of Realization hazy. We advance

the example of the snake illusion and speak of the trepidation, etc.

it causes as comparable to the illusion pertaining to the Self and

the resultant samsara. In the snake illusion it is definitely

possible to talk of a particular time when the illusion ends owing

to the shining of the torch on the place we apprehended a snake.

What is wrong in talking about a time when the Self-illusion ends

upon illumination? Why should the shastra or Shankara use figure of

speech for this? Negation of duality and assertion of singularity

that you have mentioned above are implicitly admitted by you to be a

happening. If it is not a happening, no one can understand what you

mean by those terms. If it is a happening, an event, it has to

happen at a particular time. The shastra does not leave

illumination and liberation to chance. Shankara uses terms

like : 'yadA', 'yasmin kAle', tasmin avasthAyAm', etc. indicating

time. There can be no different interpretation possible. All the

traditional Acharyas have taught the Bhashya on this basis

only.]

 

Sada ji says:

 

> These are figurative descriptions that which are beyond

description. Realization that I am the

> 10th man comes immediately when the teacher says you are the tenth

man. Is it the birth of a

> knowledge. When the teacher says you are the tenth man, that very

moment the knowledge that 'I am

> the tenth man that I have been searching for' is immediate. You

can call it as beginning of the

> knowledge of the truth or end of the ignorance of suffering or

evil. Any description falls short

> of the truth. The moment (kshaNa) I touch the wire I will get a

shock - I get the illumination

> that the wire is live and if I have any ignorance about the wire

is gone with the illumination of

> the fact that the wire is live. Now you can apply your

simultaneity or sequentially or any

> process. It is immediate means no medium is required for

knowledge to takes place. Of course I

> can describe it by a process but the fact and the experience is

beyond the process.

 

Response:

 

[You have spoken about the 10th man getting that knowledge at the

very 'moment' the instruction was addressed to him. This moment has

to be in time only. So also does the saadhaka comes to the

realization of the Truth when the conditions are all conducive for

the realization to arise. Afterall, the Shastra is clear that

bondage, saadhana to get rid of it, and liberation are all in the

plane of avidya alone. Why fight shy of admitting that liberation

happens in the space-time plane of avidya? Whatever path of sadhana

a person adopts predominantly, vichAra (self enquiry) or yoga

(meditation), the culmination of sadhana is in illumination

resulting in liberation and cessation or rebirth. The Advaita

Acharyas who have had this liberating experience have explicitly

spoken about this.]

 

Sada ji says:

 

> Bhashya has to use words to describe the state - Here the negation

of duality is the negation of

> the reality to duality - not elimination of the apparent duality.

Knowledge does not eliminate

> appearence - it can only eliminate the ignorance that causes

assignment of reality to duality.

> Appearence can get eliminated only if the instruments that cause

apperence (upaadhis - Body-mind

> complex) get eliminated.

>

> Hari Om!

> Sadananda

 

[There is no dispute about this.There is a Sureshwaracharya's

varktia:

 

tattvamsyAdi-vAkhyOttha-samyag-dhI-janma-mAtrataH |

avidyA saha-kaaryeNa nAsIt naasti na bhavishyati ||

 

meaning: Coeval with the ARISING of the Knowledge of Truth owing to

the mahaavAkya 'tattvamasi', etc., avidya, along with its effects,

was not, is not and will not be. The words 'janma' and 'mAtrataH'

are indicative of time, undisputably. No figure of speech is

involved. Thus, we are able to see the concurrence of the

VArtikakAra with the view of the BhAshyakAra. ]

 

With respectful pranams,

subbu

Om Tat Sat