Comparative religion is useless.

[theist]

All this talk of comparing one religion over another has no intrinsic value. Especially at the moment of death. At that point what matters is the Name of God and our realization of the transcendental nature of our own being.

 

The only religion is that one that is intrinsic to the eternal soul. Our eternal dharma. And that is loving service to the Lord. "Simple for the simple".

[suchandra]

 

All this talk of comparing one religion over another has no intrinsic value. Especially at the moment of death. At that point what matters is the Name of God and our realization of the transcendental nature of our own being.

 

The only religion is that one that is intrinsic to the eternal soul. Our eternal dharma. And that is loving service to the Lord. "Simple for the simple".

 

There will be in future surely also all kind of different Vaishnava schools for a fee in the West (see Certificate of Vaisnava Academy Graduation, "Instructor from the Inbound School of Yoga" from the "Vrindavan Institute for Vaishnava Culture and Studies" below, I found on a devotee blog) - but as you say - ultimate education (for free) is to remember Krishna at the time of death and go back home back to Godhead.

 

 

 

 

[Gaea]

 

All this talk of comparing one religion over another has no intrinsic value. Especially at the moment of death. At that point what matters is the Name of God and our realization of the transcendental nature of our own being.

 

The only religion is that one that is intrinsic to the eternal soul. Our eternal dharma. And that is loving service to the Lord. "Simple for the simple".

 

we've really got to ask the question why devotees, be they Vaishanavas or whatever, feel is necessary to lambast other religions or religious figures? Maybe to prove a point of some kind, but perhaps more subtely perhaps because of a little insecurity that they have within them? There's been a few threads about Christ and other religious figures in recent months on this forum where the opposition is more angry than skeptical, inquisitive or doubtful. When the case is such maybe it's best just to leave those topics alone and just concentrate on Love and Service.... haha, i just re-read that - it's best to just concentrate on Love and Service all the time i should say

[Guruvani]

I agree with the idea of this topic that comparitive religion is usless or worse than useless - it is just wrong and causes problems.

 

Along with comparitive religious writing, I think that the intermingling of religious thinkers is bad.

 

I don't think that there should be a forum where Christians come and try to cram acceptance of Jesus down the thoat of devotees, nor a forum where devotees cram their ideology down the throats of Jesus people.

 

These two faiths should stay seperate.

Christians are most unanimously against the Vaishnava religion and they are not flattered or impressed when Hare Krishna people try to present Jesus as a Vaishnava.

Any Christian would be very offended if some fanatic Hare Krishna told them that Jesus was a Vaishnava.

 

I think that the intermingling of conceptions should not be allowed.

Keep Christians out of devotee forums and keep devotees out of Christian forums.

However, since this forum is primarily Vaishnava oriented, I think the Jesus people should just be required to keep their Jesus to themselves.

[Guest guest]

Actually it is some Vaishnavas who have been offensive ranting on about christianity. Vaishnavas who were originally christians and still hold sentiments for Jesus have only been defensive against those offensive Vaishnavas.

 

But clearly, this defense is a waste of time and accomplishes nothing.

[Guruvani]

 

Actually it is some Vaishnavas who have been offensive ranting on about christianity. Vaishnavas who were originally christians and still hold sentiments for Jesus have only been defensive against those offensive Vaishnavas.

 

But clearly, this defense is a waste of time and accomplishes nothing.

 

This forum is owned and operated by Vaishnavas from a Vaishnava temple.

I think the forum should be for Vaishnava topics and the Jesus people should go to a Christian forum.

 

this mixing of Jesus people with Vaishnavas is bad chemistry and will cause nothing but friction.

[Guest guest]

Are you sure? I don't think so.

 

I think this forum is part of a master forum that is run by some Indians, hindus I would think. I'm not sure though.

 

 

This forum is owned and operated by Vaishnavas from a Vaishnava temple.

[Guest guest]

They are not Christians. Simply misguided people that call themselves Christians. Just as wearing tilak does not make one a Vaisnava. The real Christian would be thrilled to hear of Jesus being portrayed as a Vaisnava.

 

Also, the terms fanatic & Hare Krishna do not go together. A Vaisnava devotee of the Lord can never be fanatic and one who is fanatic is not a Hare Krishna.

 

 

Christians are most unanimously against the Vaishnava religion and they are not flattered or impressed when Hare Krishna people try to present Jesus as a Vaishnava. Any Christian would be very offended if some fanatic Hare Krishna told them that Jesus was a Vaishnava.

 

Is it stated in the forum rules that Christians are not allowed to post? Then you cannot keep them out and it would be wrong to try to do so.

 

 

I think that the intermingling of conceptions should not be allowed. Keep Christians out of devotee forums and keep devotees out of Christian forums. However, since this forum is primarily Vaishnava oriented, I think the Jesus people should just be required to keep their Jesus to themselves.

[bija]

 

Revatinandana: "The ten offenses to avoid in chanting the maha-mantra. The first is blaspheming the Lord's devotee." Just read them?

 

Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Prabhupada: This is very important point, blaspheming the devotees. The Lord's devotee, in many countries, many places... Just like Lord Jesus Christ, he's also devotee of Lord. Muhammad, he's also devotee of Lord. So it is not that because we are Krishna conscious, we shall unnecessarily decry any other parts, any other devotee. It may be, according to time, place, and country, the method may be different, but anyone who is preaching devotion to God, he's a devotee of God. So he should never be blasphemed. Yes.

 

 

This forum is owned and operated by Vaishnavas from a Vaishnava temple.

I think the forum should be for Vaishnava topics and the Jesus people should go to a Christian forum. quote by Guruvani

 

 

 

However, since this forum is primarily Vaisnava oriented, I think the Jesus people should just be required to keep their Jesus to themselves. quote by Guruvani

 

 

To request that Vaisnava's who used to identify as chrisitians, should not be able to discuss about Jesus on this forum is a bit extreme. Then we would have to exclude Srila Prabhupada's words also.

 

These Vaisnava's no longer identify with material designation (so should not be labeled as such), because, they have chosen to transcend material designation and follow the Vaisnava path.

 

They are following the vision of Srila Prabhupada, as in the above verse, and seeing Jesus in a Vaisnava light. Ofcourse they still have attachment to Jesus. Because he was a devotee, who preached devotion to God.

 

It may be that those devotees who have a problem with devotees who still love Jesus, have limited vision somewhat. Or some personal bias or agenda. Or have not grasped in depth, the nature of transcendental faith.

 

We clearly need to make a distinction here between the person Jesus (Yeshua), the christian religion, and christian world history.

[bija]

 

Caitanya caritamrita Madhya 25:121

'As far as religious principles are concerned, there is a consideration of the person, the country, the time and the circumstance. In devotional service, however, there are no such considerations. Devotional service is transcendental to all such considerations.'

PURPORT

 

When we are on the material platform, there are different types of religions — Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and so on. These are instituted for a particular time, a particular country or a particular person. Consequently there are differences. Christian principles are different from Hindu principles, and Hindu principles are different from Muslim and Buddhist principles. These may be considered on the material platform, but when we come to the platform of transcendental devotional service, there are no such considerations. The transcendental service of the Lord (sādhana-bhakti) is above these principles. The world is anxious for religious unity, and that common platform can be achieved in transcendental devotional service. This is the verdict of Śrī Chaitanya Mahāprabhu. When one becomes a Vaiṣṇava, he becomes transcendental to all these limited considerations. This is confirmed by Lord Kṛṣṇa in the Bhagavad-gītā (14.26):

 

māḿ ca yo 'vyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena sevate

 

sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate

 

"One who engages in full devotional service, unfailing in all circumstances, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman."

 

The devotional activities of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement are completely transcendental to material considerations. As far as different faiths are concerned, religions may be of different types, but on the spiritual platform, everyone has an equal right to execute devotional service. That is the platform of oneness and the basis for a classless society. In his Amṛta-pravāha-bhāṣya, Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura confirms that one has to learn from a bona fide spiritual master about religious principles, economic development, sense gratification and ultimately liberation. These are the four divisions of regulated life, but they are on the material platform. On the spiritual platform, the four principles are jshāna, vijshāna, tad-ańga and tad-rahasya. Rules, regulations and restrictions are on the material platform, but on the spiritual platform one has to be equipped with transcendental knowledge, which is above the principles of religious rituals. Mundane religious activity is known as smārta-viddhi, but transcendental devotional service is called gosvāmi-viddhi. Unfortunately many so-called gosvāmīs are on the platform of smārta-viddhi, yet they try to pass as gosvāmi-viddhi, and thus the people are cheated. Gosvāmī-viddhi is strictly explained in Sanātana Gosvāmī's Hari-bhakti-vilāsa, wherein it is stated:

 

yathā kāshcanatāḿ yāti kāḿsyaḿ rasa-vidhānataḥ

 

tathā dīkṣā-vidhānena dvijatvaḿ jāyate nṛṇām

 

"By chemical manipulation, bell metal is turned into gold when touched by mercury; similarly, when a person is properly initiated, he can acquire the qualities of a brāhmaṇa."

 

The conclusion is that devotional service is open for everyone, regardless of caste, creed, time and country. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is functioning according to this principle.

[sanatan]

 

This forum is owned and operated by Vaishnavas from a Vaishnava temple.

I think the forum should be for Vaishnava topics and the Jesus people should go to a Christian forum.

 

this mixing of Jesus people with Vaishnavas is bad chemistry and will cause nothing but friction.

 

I don't think the people who post here regularly are in any sense what could be called "Jesus people", with the exception of the occasional roaming spot proselytizer...and they are very obvious.

 

A good number of us were born in America or other western nations, grew up in Christian homes, and became affiliated with the Hare Krishna movement during our youth or young adulthood...for me, I saw my first devotees in 1969, had my first extended association in 1971, and have hung in, in one way or another, ever since.

 

Though we took a drastic detour from the religious training of our childhood, many still have strong impressions, both good and bad, of that period of their lives, and it is part of our psycho/spiritual makeup...it's something that not all can discard with ease, or may not want to discard or completely dissociate from. We also face situations in our present lives which we must deal with all manner of Christians...from the Bible-thumping hellfire fanatics to some very cool and open individuals.

 

So what better place to discuss our issues with Christianity, Christians, the Bible, and so on than an intelligent Vaisnava forum, with other Vaisnavas? As has been suggested previously, a regular forum for this type of discussion could be established and those who don't want to go there wouldn't have to...there's no reason for friction unless people choose to create it.

[Guruvani]

 

Prabhupada: This is very important point, blaspheming the devotees. The Lord's devotee, in many countries, many places... Just like Lord Jesus Christ, he's also devotee of Lord. Muhammad, he's also devotee of Lord. So it is not that because we are Krishna conscious, we shall unnecessarily decry any other parts, any other devotee. It may be, according to time, place, and country, the method may be different, but anyone who is preaching devotion to God, he's a devotee of God. So he should never be blasphemed. Yes.

 

I don't believe in offenses to mythological characters.

There is no such thing.

 

Srila Prabhupada was being diplomatic in his preaching in the western world.

What he said was a preaching device.

It is not factual.

He just didn't want to start a war with Christians in the western world.

He was the leader of a religious movement, he was obliged to make such concessions.

I am not a leader of a religious movement.

I am just speaking without diplomacy.

 

It'a about time the war with the Christians got acknowledged.

It's time to take off the kid gloves and put on the boxing gloves.

 

Krishna went to war with great religious men and followers of Vedic religions and killed them all.

Balarama was against it.

Krishna wiped-out the entire Kuru dynasty who were all strict followers of the Vedic religions.

 

Krishna said abandon Jesus, Mohammed and all the rest of them and just surrender unto him.

 

Leave Jesus behind and surrender to Krishna.

Hanging on to Jesus is just a way of resisting Krishna.

[Guest guest]

"Hindu Brahmin, scholar, and reformer Ram Mohan Roy played a major role in the intellectual life of early 19th century India. His views on religion and culture sparked fierce debate among British missionaries and Hindu pandits HELPING TO ELEVATE THE PUBLIC'S POLITICAL AND SOCIAL AWARENESS."

 

What Life Was Like in the Jewel of the Crown p. 132 Time Life Books

 

 

Prabhupada letter 15 Sept 1971

to Madhudvisa Maharaja

"...Yes, this program is very nice to attract the attention of students...Socrates, Plato, Aristotle...we shall also discuss Marx philosophy of communism..."

 

 

The previous acharyas debated. Strongly debated. So there is a tradition in Western culture, Indian society, and Hinduism of debate. We do not live in a totally fascist global planet state yet where no one may question others' assertions in public or else the Thought Police come to purify us of our deviance from the official Party Line.

 

On this planet there were and are public talks and public debates in the past as well as the present and if anyone in the audience asked questions or challenged assertions that the previous acharyas did not hide behind a mask of Hello Kitty and My Little Pony.

 

The reason why they did not limit the topics they discussed in public was as mentioned above in both the cases of Ram Mohan Roy and Prabhupada that such discussions elevate the public's awareness of certain topics.

 

So to ask questions and challenge any speakers' assertions has value for enhancing intellectual understanding. That is why Prabhupada said, "Yes this program is very nice" when devotees went out into the public. Even he sent RDTSP to every college campus in the United States. He didn't just preach to the choir.

 

If people do not know your philosophy then you call them an offender, aparadhi, and/ or an infidel if they challenge a speaker like any college student would do? People who are university educated especially if they are from parts of the planet where in-your-face discussions are the norm are used to asking questions as well as challenging others' assumptions strongly.

 

If you want a Hello Kitty, My Little Pony forum then that is possible also. There are certainly many such "official church organ" websites that only present "feel good" discussions in which no one ever asks any hard-ball questions or challenges assertions.

 

However, if you allow people to voice their opinions freely, especially if the writer is asking to hear others' opinions, then that is how people understand what others' philosophies are: they ask questions. Then that way they can determine if a certain religion or philosophy is a good match for them or not.

 

And if they already think they understand their own religion, but were always afraid to ask the hard questions that she or he could never ask in the Temple Room or in Sunday School for fear of retrobution, if they get good answers then they get a deeper understanding and clarification from hearing the widest range of voices present the widest variety possible of opinions. It is an edifying experience. It helps them understand what path to follow.

 

Especially if a person was raised in only one tradition where the visiting Zonal Acharya and his goondas, or the priests and nuns slammed one's parents for asking questions, perhaps for them the acid test of whether or not any given philosophy is a good religion is do they get to ask hardball questions or not?

 

These are the ways in which comparative religions ARE helpful: people can compare and contrast and see what they want to believe in. And if an individual thought they believed in something, they find out if they still want to believe in it or not: by having philosophical points clarified.

[sanatan]

 

I don't believe in offenses to mythological characters.

There is no such thing.

 

Srila Prabhupada was being diplomatic in his preaching in the western world.

What he said was a preaching device...

...Leave Jesus behind and surrender to Krishna.

Hanging on to Jesus is just a way of resisting Krishna.

 

Guruvani...methinks you are a fundie in your own right.

[Guruvani]

 

Guruvani...methinks you are a fundie in your own right.

 

I'll plead the 5th and avoid self-incrimination.

[bija]

 

It'a about time the war with the Christians got acknowledged.

It's time to take off the kid gloves and put on the boxing gloves. quote by Guruvani

Guruvani....that is a wee bit hilarious . I do not take some things you say seriously.

 

 

Leave Jesus behind and surrender to Krishna.

Hanging on to Jesus is just a way of resisting Krishna. quote by Guruvani

Surrender to Krsna means eventually, to love Krsna. And to love Krsna means to love him in full (that includes his parts and parcels). How much more so his sweet devotee parts and parcels.

 

 

I don't believe in offenses to mythological characters.

There is no such thing. quote by Guruvani

 

Don't worry...I had no intention of calling you an offender. It was the 'devotee' part of the Srila Prabhupada quote that was of relevance.

 

Whether Jesus was historical or myth...it is irrelevant to me. It is the substance (essence) of the teaching that is of relevance. In that the person (myth) Yeshua's teachings were, to have love and devotion toward God. This is why Srila Prabhupada called him a devotee.

 

We could beat around the bush all day on this topic...but I am sure we will not reach common ground too soon.

 

__________________________

 

Different religions are for specific time, place, and circumstance. Ofcourse comparisons can be found, and also great differences.

 

So from a Gaudiya Vaisnava perspective we have to look at what the common essence is in comparitive study. Srila Prabhupada's consclusion, and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's conclusion was that the eternal common ground was...devotional service. Simple for the simple...to quote Theist.

 

Rather than staying on the material platform and finding points of contention...or all out war as you suggest Guruvani. Why not keep things simple. Transcendental. Eternal. Devotional.

 

Devotional service.... The real point of unity.

The world is anxious for religious unity, and that common platform can be achieved in transcendental devotional service. quote Srila Prabhupada

[Guruvani]

 

Guruvani....that is a wee bit hilarious . I do not take some things you say seriously.

 

 

Finally, somebody who really understands me.

If you were a girl I would wanna kiss you.....

 

I am the clown prince of Bhakti and it's about time people started to appreciate that.

[bija]

 

Finally, somebody who really understands me.

If you were a girl I would wanna kiss you.....quote by Guruvani

Struth.........mate...

 

....I feel no attraction for your avatara (your photo).

 

Aussie slang:Struth-Derived from God's truth.

[Beggar]

 

Finally, somebody who really understands me.

If you were a girl I would wanna kiss you.....

 

I am the clown prince of Bhakti and it's about time people started to appreciate that.

 

Mister Vani your Maxwell is ready!

[Beggar]

This is boring. Time to reignite the Rtvik Wars! Just kidding Only, I wish I really was:crazy:

[Guest guest]

"Everything can be used in KRSNA's service." How many times have you heard that saying? Therefore it is possible that comparative religion is not "useless".

 

It is possible that such things are only "useless" if one does not know how to utilize it expertly, if one doesn't have gift from Goddess for academic inquiry that comes from Goddess Saraswati or in more modern terms: you may not have the socio-emotional-intellectual brain wiring to know how to use the ability to compare and contrast religions in service of The Divine.

 

There are various chakras that lift the sadhaka up higher: academic knowledge and debate involves the chakras of Muladhara [memory-time-space] as well as Svadhishthana [reason] and Manipura [the chakra of willpower]. Debate actually strengthens the devotional platform of sadhakas who are at a certain level of understanding.

 

People don't just jump to the top of the reincarnation tree i.e. become firmly established in the Sahasrara chakra [spiritual illumination] by proclaiming, "Now I am a devotee". Reincarnation is a gradual process. Not everyone is at the same stage. There are unlimited jivas all reincarnating and each have a different type of faith. Some are at a stage of development in reincarnation where they utilize the processes of questioning and using intellectual capacity, reason and understanding more than others.

 

For example: in some religious traditions no genuine debate is ever allowed. Then all of a sudden someone constantly lording it over the others and calling everyone else "evil-doers" falls down. So why is that? If they were truly convinced of The Absolute Truth and such understanding had evolved in a natural way--which would include being able to question the very foundation of one's faith and religion--then nothing could ever swerve or derail them. So by not allowing questioning or debate, you are trying to keep people at an infantile level of awareness. People can't mature in understanding.

 

In Western culture there is a saying that the biggest compliment to one's religion is the ability to be able to question it.

[Guruvani]

 

Mister Vani your Maxwell is ready!

 

I am an herb tea kinda guy myself.

Coffees is nasty.

Matter o' fact I am sippin' some right now....

[Guruvani]

 

Struth.........mate...

 

....I feel no attraction for your avatara (your photo).

 

Aussie slang:Struth-Derived from God's truth.

 

I am kinda homely, but I'm nice.

Thats gotta count for sumthin'.

 

That avatar is a digital pic of my vapu setting on the beach of Mindoro Island in the Philppines last year.

It's home to the smallest volcano in Asia.

I thought it was kinda cool myself.

[bija]

 

If they were truly convinced of The Absolute Truth and such understanding had evolved in a natural way--which would include being able to question the very foundation of one's faith and religion--then nothing could ever swerve or derail them. quote by guest

 

In Western culture there is a saying that the biggest compliment to one's religion is the ability to be able to question it. quote by guest

Yes...I think for some in their natural progression of faith, such a stage arises.

Moving on from the initial acceptance of a belief system, to really investigating within oneself.

 

I think this point has been touched on in another thread in regards to Guru. I feel when we come to this questioning stage of our faith we need to have a very open relationship with our spiritual guides.

 

I am sure a balanced guru would be open to such questioning, and understand.

 

If this stage can be appreciated...the outcome is surely a strengthening of faith and a new maturity and development.

 

 

Debate actually strengthens the devotional platform of sadhakas who are at a certain level of understanding. quote by guest

Yes....open ended discussion is beneficial for growth.

 

I can see some benefit from comparitive study if the outcome is deepening of faith. By the way...I read in the Sri Krsna Samhita that....'Vrindavana is a land of faith'.

[bija]

 

That avatar is a digital pic of my vapu setting on the beach of Mindoro Island in the Philppines last year. quote by Guruvani

 

In the photo..is that a bead bag around your neck?