Sahajiyas??

[Tirisilex]

I have been researching Gaudiya Vaishnavas and in my search I have found Sahajiya.. I cant find much on the subject but I have found that they arent well liked.

Why are the Sahajiyas so looked down upon? What texts do they accept and not accept? What philosophical understandings they have that is different than Gaudiyas??

[Guest guest]

shajya means cheap ..

 

So no need to follow any regulation just accept there is god and do whatever you think is correct to get love of God.

 

Basically all relegions are basically sahajya in some sense hindusisim, muslims, christians .

 

More you can see in sri rupa goswami's nectar of instruction.

 

YS, DEV

[raga]

There: http://wiki.gaudiyakutir.com/Sahajiya

[Guruvani]

he is a link with some good info on the sahajiyas

 

http://banglapedia.search.com.bd/HT/S_0025.htm

[Tirisilex]

In my research so far there are 2 types of Sahajiya.. One is the Sahajiya Vaishnava.. which is a sect (Or also known as a Cult) The other type of Sahajiya is Certain Behaivoirs that are considered Heresy.. Things like Laughing in Ecstasy. Dancing in Ecstasy.. This kind of Sahajiya reminds me of the Pentacostal Churches in Christianity

[Tirisilex]

I have spent many hours searching the web for information on Sahajiya Vaisnava.. Most of the info I have found condemns Sahajiya because it offends Brahmacarya. I wonder how does Sahajayi justify their Tantric outlook?

[Gaea]

why is dancing or laughing in ecstacy heresy?

[Guest guest]

 

why is dancing or laughing in ecstacy heresy?

 

Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharaja has told, "we want devotion, not emotion".

This means that we don't want to force some kind of imaginary ecstacy like an actor "crying" in a drama. This is very much a fashion amongst some sections in India. If one is on the suddha sattva level of realisation and they laugh and dance in ecstacy when chanting the holy name then that is a different thing.

[taradevi]

Re:

"Why are the Sahajiyas so looked down upon? What texts do they accept and not accept? What philosophical understandings they have that is different than Gaudiyas??"

 

Namaste. Om Tat Sat.

 

I am a guru in the sahajiyana. I have been doing classical sadhana in this tradition [ set of traditions ] since taking high-level Buddhist and non-Buddhist initiations in 1980.

 

Sahajiyana focuses on inner aspects of yoga. It is not ruled so much by conventions and dictates. For example, there is no caste distinction, no sense of "my countryman vs. foreigner", or male in contrast to female.

 

Sahajiya practice focuses on whole person yoga, and wholeness and integration of yoga into all aspects on one's life. Thus, one could easily be a householder and a sahajiya, or sahajiya-adept, if one knew how to integrate yoga with the householder's life.

 

Not many tantric Buddhists in the West know it, but the inner and most central aspects of tantric Buddhism really are Sahajiyana. Two of the most important Indian sources of Indo-Tibetan Buddhism are the Mahasiddha Tilopa and the Mahasiddha Saraha. These two yogis truly embodied - and realized - the Sahajiya type of practice, up to full Buddhahood.

 

There are English language publications of the dohas of Saraha, and the yogas of Tilopa's lineage passed down through Naropa ( Nadapada ) to the Tibetan Pandit Marpa, to Milarepa, and down through the Karma Kagyu lineage of "Tibetan Buddhism", among other parallel lineages.

 

In Buddhatantra, Sahajayana is directly linked to the principle of "Buddhahood Already Present" in each and all. In the Karma Kagyu school, this teaching is called Mahamudra, the Great Seal [ of Primordial Pure Being ].

 

Sahajayana in Buddhist tantra and in Mahamudra is strongly linked to kundalini yoga and "the Six Yogas of Naropa", and the tantra of the deity Cakrasamvara, which passed down from Tilopa and Naropa to the Indo-Tibetan lineages.

 

There are other, alternative formulations and lineages of Sahajayana in Buddhatantra. The main alternative is Atiyoga, known in Tibet as "Dzogchen". This is associated with Mahaguru Padmasambhava and the Tibetan school known as Nyingma, or the Earlier Translation.

 

Both the Mahamudra of the Karma Kagyu and the Atiyoga of Padmasambhava are taught around the world. They are taught to four million Chinese in one Indo-Tibetan-Chinese lineage. Mahamudra / mantrayana has been taught in Japan since about 800 Common Era.

 

All Buddhist tantric lineages overlap the Hindu lineages to some degree, greater or smaller. In ancient India at a certain time there was great overlap between Hindu and Buddhist lineages. Various specifically Hindu deities are found in all tantric Buddhist schools of Nepal, Tibet, China, and Japan.

 

In my own case, the first inner connection is the devi Tara, who is equally Hindu and Buddhist.

 

Here's something to think about. Westerners typically think "yoga" is a form of physical exercise only. But actually, most yoga is linked to mantra and pranayama and kundalini, and a more integrative sadhana parampara.

 

This means that most of the classical and comprehensive teaching on yoga given in the West is actually being done by Tibetan lamas, and most of that leads pretty directly to the Mahasiddha tradition of pre-Islamic Buddhist India, and Hindu-Buddhist India.

 

It is laughable and foolish to think that the Islamists, or Hebrews etc. are in any way connected to Sahajayana. Sahajayana is a Sanskrit-based set of lineages and practices only.

 

Buddhist Sahajayana completely rejects the philosophy and culture of Islam and Judaism, just as Islam and Judaism completely reject all of the Buddhadharma. There is no overlap whatsoever! The basis for all Sahajayana philosophy in Buddhism is the Mahayana philosophy, which *completely* rejects caste, the "uniqueness" of a "chosen people", a "unique savior", and "a final testament of a creator god".

 

Sarva mangalam! Siddhi rastu!

 

Tara Devi

[Guest guest]

One thing I did notice is that HH Dalai Lama, whom some consider to be a manifestation of The Buddha of Compassion, does engage in Interfaith dialogues and as well as Science-Religion dialogues.

 

I notice that he has said this to the world: "My religion is kindness." And also more recently I have read that he has said this specifically to Christians, "If the idea that having a nice long rest or sleep after you die is appealing to you, then I have no problem with that" [paraphrased and summarized].

 

So in that sense there can be Unity in Diversity: wherever there are kind people doing merciful things, living Love in thought, word, and deed in any tradition of the world, that could also be seen as a manifestation of universal concepts in action of the Universal Religion or Sanatana Dharma.

 

 

 

In the spirit of Interfaith dialogue, which HH Dalai Lama frequently engages in, here are some places to explore with further reading: one prabhu Isa Das has made a website of the parallels between Judaism and Hindusim, called Equal Souls. Another prabhu has written a book about The Druze which is a sect of Judaism with beliefs very similar to Hinduism [if I am mistaken about this I hope someone please correct me]. Yet another prabhu has written a book: Om Shalom - Judaism and KC in which relationship between Kabbalah and Kapila is explored amongst other things with the Founder-Director of Talmud and Torah Beth Rabbinical Association.

 

 

 

There may be many parallels between all of the world's religions. Joseph Campbell has certainly said as much in his seminal works such as The Hero With A Thousand Faces and The Power of Myth with Bill Moyers. Joseph Campbell has pointed out that every culture has a story about a great flood.

 

Linguists trace the origin of the Romance languages [the European languages such as French, Italian, etc.] to Sanskrit. So there may be many common elements. A book called You Mean That's In the Bible? shows harmony between Bible and Vedas. Another book The Reincarnation Controversy: Uncovering the Truth in World Religions shows the connection between Hindusim, Buddhism, Judaism, Kabbalah, Christianity, Origen controversy, Islam, the Druze, and explores the topic of reincarnation as heresy.

 

 

 

Of course if we are focusing on one lineage then we will become expert in our own lineage. To get PhD one must focus. Also there is only so much time we have in one lifetime, so perhaps some are learning focus, others learning harmony, still others are learning deconstruction, yet others are ABC. Over many many lifetimes gradually we can get the big picture yet can also zoom in to microscopic detail in some things.

 

And if we are searching for the essence then may come a stage where in our research we become outraged by the wide gulf of difference between what the imams, rabbis, nuns and/or priests shoved down our throat, accompanied by hurtful samskaras of corporal punishment and humiliation. We become livid that what we were forced to listen to was perhaps not Absolute Truth or totally honest.

 

And if we got corporal punishment from our care-givers for not wishing to go to Temple School or Sunday School and learning so much drivel then perhaps there is a stage we need to go through of point out to others different hypocrasies that were shoved down our throats. A type of deprogramming if you will from the wrong views and whitewash spin doctoring of the ways in which the Abrahamic religions radically depart from the Sanatana Dharma.

 

Such as the nuns tell us to shut up when we ask the hard questions publicly humiliating a little kid. Then to get whippings from the parents or the priests for "disrespect" to their crazy teachings. Or the Abrahamic religions parents disown us and force us to live like street person just because we can't accept that a merciful God casts some people into hell forever including babies who were not baptized or everyone who lived before Christ appeared.

 

Or Abrahamic religion parents force us to get an exorcism or sic Christian deprogrammers on us and shove hamburger down our throat in the name of Jesus. And turns out maybe they are the ones after all someone needs to tell "Shut Up" to and maybe they are the ones need exorcism or a tofu burger because now they are dying of meat-related diseases.

 

 

 

However since many Buddhists accept HH Dalai Lama as great soul then just wished to point out that he delighted in Interfaith dialogues and hope this was helpful and useful to those who wish to explore further investigations and research this topic of Unity in Diversity.

 

I also respect if anyone on the path of Diversity wishes to become expert in a topic and as such feel that they must focus on that topic. I apologize if I have agitated anyone's mind and if I have given incorrect information, I hope someone else will present their conception of right attitude and right views.

[Tirisilex]

Your a Sahajiya Guru? How much experience do you have in the Sahajiya Vaishnava? Where does Krishna fit in? Do you know of Sahajiya Vaishnava Gurus?

 

 

 

Re:

"Why are the Sahajiyas so looked down upon? What texts do they accept and not accept? What philosophical understandings they have that is different than Gaudiyas??"

 

Namaste. Om Tat Sat.

 

I am a guru in the sahajiyana. I have been doing classical sadhana in this tradition [ set of traditions ] since taking high-level Buddhist and non-Buddhist initiations in 1980.

 

Sahajiyana focuses on inner aspects of yoga. It is not ruled so much by conventions and dictates. For example, there is no caste distinction, no sense of "my countryman vs. foreigner", or male in contrast to female.

 

Sahajiya practice focuses on whole person yoga, and wholeness and integration of yoga into all aspects on one's life. Thus, one could easily be a householder and a sahajiya, or sahajiya-adept, if one knew how to integrate yoga with the householder's life.

 

Not many tantric Buddhists in the West know it, but the inner and most central aspects of tantric Buddhism really are Sahajiyana. Two of the most important Indian sources of Indo-Tibetan Buddhism are the Mahasiddha Tilopa and the Mahasiddha Saraha. These two yogis truly embodied - and realized - the Sahajiya type of practice, up to full Buddhahood.

 

There are English language publications of the dohas of Saraha, and the yogas of Tilopa's lineage passed down through Naropa ( Nadapada ) to the Tibetan Pandit Marpa, to Milarepa, and down through the Karma Kagyu lineage of "Tibetan Buddhism", among other parallel lineages.

 

In Buddhatantra, Sahajayana is directly linked to the principle of "Buddhahood Already Present" in each and all. In the Karma Kagyu school, this teaching is called Mahamudra, the Great Seal [ of Primordial Pure Being ].

 

Sahajayana in Buddhist tantra and in Mahamudra is strongly linked to kundalini yoga and "the Six Yogas of Naropa", and the tantra of the deity Cakrasamvara, which passed down from Tilopa and Naropa to the Indo-Tibetan lineages.

 

There are other, alternative formulations and lineages of Sahajayana in Buddhatantra. The main alternative is Atiyoga, known in Tibet as "Dzogchen". This is associated with Mahaguru Padmasambhava and the Tibetan school known as Nyingma, or the Earlier Translation.

 

Both the Mahamudra of the Karma Kagyu and the Atiyoga of Padmasambhava are taught around the world. They are taught to four million Chinese in one Indo-Tibetan-Chinese lineage. Mahamudra / mantrayana has been taught in Japan since about 800 Common Era.

 

All Buddhist tantric lineages overlap the Hindu lineages to some degree, greater or smaller. In ancient India at a certain time there was great overlap between Hindu and Buddhist lineages. Various specifically Hindu deities are found in all tantric Buddhist schools of Nepal, Tibet, China, and Japan.

 

In my own case, the first inner connection is the devi Tara, who is equally Hindu and Buddhist.

 

Here's something to think about. Westerners typically think "yoga" is a form of physical exercise only. But actually, most yoga is linked to mantra and pranayama and kundalini, and a more integrative sadhana parampara.

 

This means that most of the classical and comprehensive teaching on yoga given in the West is actually being done by Tibetan lamas, and most of that leads pretty directly to the Mahasiddha tradition of pre-Islamic Buddhist India, and Hindu-Buddhist India.

 

It is laughable and foolish to think that the Islamists, or Hebrews etc. are in any way connected to Sahajayana. Sahajayana is a Sanskrit-based set of lineages and practices only.

 

Buddhist Sahajayana completely rejects the philosophy and culture of Islam and Judaism, just as Islam and Judaism completely reject all of the Buddhadharma. There is no overlap whatsoever! The basis for all Sahajayana philosophy in Buddhism is the Mahayana philosophy, which *completely* rejects caste, the "uniqueness" of a "chosen people", a "unique savior", and "a final testament of a creator god".

 

Sarva mangalam! Siddhi rastu!

 

Tara Devi

[Guest guest]

Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharaja has also told, "My religion is finding fault with my self".

[Guruvani]

Krishna says to abandon all religions and surrender unto him.

 

There is only one religioin:To obey the laws of God and develop love of God.

 

[Beggar]

To Become A Vaishnava Proper

Is Almost Impossible

It Is Only A Matter Of Grace

By Srila Bhakti Rakshak Sridhar Dev-Goswami Maharaja

"We can't see our own soul — that is our position. Engrossed in this gross matter of exploitation not even we can know what is our mind — what stuff it is made of; then what is the judgment faculty within us — buddhi — independent of this world; then the soul; then SuperSoul area. Living in this mundane world dreaming that I have got the God of my dreams… it is a farce!"

"Sahajiya are the worst enemy because by imitating not only their own self is going to hell but they are attracting so many towards that."

Question: "Which is worse, someone who falls down and becomes disconnected or one who becomes sahajiya?"

A poor man is better or a dacoit is better? A man had money but then he lost his money. Another man he is imitating that he has got money by committing a wrong thing. If one is disconnected he may be reconnected soon. Sahajiya means either he had real connection with the truth, disconnected then chose the wrong path or already he is engaged in the wrong path. Who will be in the better position? Not to get the real thing or to get some wrong thing — which will be better? Who is in the possession of the wrong thing Bhagavad Gita mentions that to be in tama-guna, the lowest position — one thinks A to be B. And raja guna that is doubt: whether this is real or that is real — can't ascertain what is true. And one who thinks that, "No, A is B or B is A" — this is the worse kind of error. Misguided, sahajiya means misguided, they are accepting matter as consciousness.

vishayi tabu bhalo mayavadi sanga nahi magi kono khalo

"Although both are undesirable, I would rather associate with a debauchee — never a mayavadi [or sahajiya] ."

I have got no money and another says — he has got really no money — some false papers and he says this is money [counterfeit]. He is in more distress: he is engaged in falsehood. And this man is not engaged, no engagement. The engagement he had is gone. But this man has taken one thing for another thing — matter for Divine — that is worse. To become sahajiya is worse — mal-possession — engrossed attention captured by the wrong conception. One man earlier had some conception but for some time he is disconnected, again he may get connection — easily. But this man is pre-possessed, to convince him of the truth is more difficult, because his mind is possessed by something — that prejudice.

I heard in my childhood in school, the teacher said that in America there is a school of music and if anyone has got some knowledge of music he will be charged double. And a man who has got no knowledge of music he will only have to pay a single charge. Because he does not know anything he may be taught in an easy way. And one who has got some knowledge of music — double charge. Because what he has gathered in the line of music that should be done away with and then he should be taken in a proper way. So double charge — to make him forget his previous prejudices — so double charge. It is something like that.

No bhakti, no devotion, that is one case and in the name of devotion some non-devotional thing has captured — imitation — that is worse. That is committing offenses. Prabhupada Srila Saraswati Thakur said it is to ridicule the devotees, Mahaprabhu, Rupa, Sanatan. It is to ridicule them. What is prema and what is kama: both are at opposite ends. To accept kama in the name of prema. That is not only heinous, injurious for him but it is to destroy the good name of the Vaishnava with the public.

Bhaktivinode Thakur says, dekho bhai kame preme veda naya — similar — tabu kama preme nahi haya — Still the lust is not love. Tumite bolite kama: you have accepted lust in place of love and if you give the stamp that this is prema — rakta vansha mayo kama this is concerned with flesh and blood but love is on the highest position of the spiritual existence (prema cidananda dhama).

So opposites: this Sumeru… South Pole and North Pole — the opposite. One is concerned with this body and another SuperSoul. There is a great gulf between: the ocean of dedication. At the top of dedication there is that sort of gopi-prema: wherever there is Krishna, it is there. And this is an imitation to that — treachery in the name of that highest thing.

Koti mukta 'durlabha' madhye eka krsna bhakta (you will find one krishna-bhakta amogst ten million liberated souls): these things are to be considered. It is possible in the highest position of the spiritual existence, that conscious area — spiritual. And not any concern with flesh and blood — body — not concerned with the body. This is the most heinous: one will play the part of Krishna and the other lady will play the part of gopi, they will unite and in that fashion they will… this is inconceivable! An ordinary pure type of man, a moral man, will hate this, what to speak of the higher devotees. An ordinary moral man will hate these sort of things.

The steps are shown to us:

adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sango 'tha bhajana-kriya

tato 'nartha-nivrttih syat tato nistha rucis tatah

athasaktis tato bhavas tatah premabhyudancati

sadhakanam ayam premnah pradurbhave bhavet kramah

What is anartha? Anartha nivrtti, nistha, ruci, asakti, bhava, prema. These are the steps. And from another standpoint

vaikunthera prthivy-adi sakala cinmaya

mayika bhutera tathi janma nahi haya

I repeatedly tell this. From where are we born? We are the offspring of tatastha-sakti, marginal potency. And we are to go through swarupa-sakti,that which is higher than us, that soil is of higher stuff than I meself am made of. All superior: earth, air, water, tree, mud, everything to be found there, they are all superior to me. And I am to enter there; It is not a small thing, easy thing — a childish thing.

It is not in the hand of the person who will go there — enter there. All dependent upon the grace of the superior — Vaishnava-krpa — Guru-krpa, Vaishnava-krpa. We are to walk there on our head not by leg. All Guru: the soil is guru, the paraphernalia is guru — means superior. I am made of lower stuff and that is all higher stuff. And it is impossible, so up to mukti, liberation, that may be easy, but then to go further that must be drawn by there grace and not as a matter of right anyone can enter the realm. Only through wholesale, cent percent grace of the child of that soil, that camp, can take me there. Like a bondsman, an agent of that soil must be the guarantor for me. For his risk I can go. He will take the risk of taking me there. So Vaishnava guru, they will take the risk, at their risk they can take me there — the child of the soil. So Vaishnava-krpa, guru-krpa, bhagavat-krpa — without their grace — no right, all grace, that can take me there. From our side no right. I am a child of the marginal potency. Everything, the whole stuff of that plane is made of higher stuff than my own position. It is all "person" and they are superior persons. How a person can walk on the head of the person? Only for their interest. It is inconceivable and impossible. To accept this principle that is most difficult what to speak of entering there.

bahunam janmanam ante jñanavan mam prapadyate

vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma su-durlabhah

To have this conception, that is also very rarely found.

muktanam api siddhanam narayana-parayanah

sudurlabhah prasantatma kotisv api maha-mune

It is easy to think but it is hard to attain, to get. No right can be established there: not as a matter of right we can go. So the rights seeker, they will be totally frustrated. All risk no gain. But if somehow we can attain, we can reach there — all gain, no risk. So to become a Vaishnava proper is almost impossible. It is only a matter of grace from that land. They can go. Nothing to do from our side.

So complete surrender: full, complete identification with Their interest. Complete self-forgetfulness. And the identification with the interest of that layer, that plane, that also should be substantial, then we can hope to be taken to that soil.

vaikunthera prthivyadi sakala cinmaya

mayika bhutera tathi janma nahi haya

A devotee of Uddhava's caliber says, he prays, that if I can be a creeper here, I shall consider it to be my fortune to the highest extent. In Vrindavan the creeper is such a valuable thing that Uddhava is aspiring after that position. Whom the Lord says, "You are the most favorite devotee of mine, even I love you more than my own self." And that Uddhava is aspiring after that birth that I can be… this is not hyperbolic. If there is any reality in this, then how are we to prepare? He is aspiring to be a shrub or a blade of grass and I shall have to walk over that place. I shall have to walk over the head of Uddhava. So such a higher conception that thing may have — ha, ridicules! Sahajiya.

Sahajiya: by imitation here in the flesh and blood, they will achieve that. They are the worst enemy because by imitating not only their own self is going to hell but they are attracting so many towards that. Not conscious of the fact: what is what. So they have got their position in the society like that — hate. The general society has got hate for them, those babajis.

We have to put faith in our Guru Maharaja... after wandering through the whole of Braja Mandal he came and striking his forehead he told, "It is my misfortune that I could not find a single Vaishnava in this Braja Mandal." That was his utterance. "It is my misfortune" he pressed his hand to his forehead: "It is my misfortune that I could not find a single Vaishnava in this great holy place of Braja Mandal." That was his statement.

And also after he performed Braja Mandal Parikrama who has got recognition as the best of the sahajiya Vaishnavas, the head, he told, "He is a kanistha adhikari. He may be considered as a beginner: admission in the infant class." Who is considered unanimously to be a siddha-babaji. He has attained the highest position among the babajis. But Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur told he has got admission into the primary class — in Patrika [a magazine] in writing he told that — in Gaudiya Patrika. And we are trained accordingly and consciously not blind faith. He explained to us what is what. And we try to follow his direction. And we have also come to such conclusion. Step by step we are to climb to the highest peak.

karmibhyah parito hareh priyataya vyaktim yayur jñaninas

tebhyo jãna-vimukta-bhakti-paramah premaika-nisthas tatah

[jñanis are superior to karmis; muktas are superior to jñanis; bhaktas are superior to muktas; among devotees those who have attained Krishna-prema are superior] — bhakti-parama—Narada; premaika-nistha—Uddhava.

tebhyas tah pasu-pala-pankaja-drsas tabhyo 'pi sa radhika

prestha tadvad iyam tadiya-sarasi tam nasrayet kah krte

[of those who have achieved Krishna-prema the Braja Gopis are best and among the Braja Gopis Srimati Radharani is incomparable and dearest to Krishna as is the liquid representation of herself in the form of Radha Kunda. To take shelter there, to bathe there, is to transform oneself wholesale — to identify exclusively with the interest of Srimati Radharani — radha-dasyam]

These shall be our guiding mantram.

Otherwise it is all mental concoction — imitation. Imitation, that is worse, that is hateful — filthy. In the name of that higher love if we represent this fleshy connection with the body. And the mind that cultivates that thing, that is the most hateful thing. Avoid, we shall try to avoid with the utmost will and energy.

The scientific survey of the land is possible to our soul's eye. Kaviraja Goswami' informs us: vaikunthera prthivyadi sakla cinmaya [the spiritual world from the ground up is constructed of cinmaya — "pure thought,pure conception," — cent percent Krishna conscious dedicating substance] and we must understand that. That is true: after brahmaloka [the brahmajyoti] viroja, brahmaloka: what is Viroja? What is brahmaloka? We are in such a material position we cannot understand this lower process also.

indriyani parany ahur indriyebhyah param manah

manasas tu para buddhir yo buddheh paratas tu sah

We can't follow what is our soul. This world, we perceive it through our senses, that is higher, the mind receives through the senses, worldly experience, over mind there is the faculty of judgment within us, over that there is soul proper and then there is the SuperSoul, brahmaloka, Vaikuntha, Viroja, so many things — layers. We cannot find out our own soul — what it is — what is the characteristic of our own soul! We are far away from that conception, in a hopeless position and we say that the highest conception of the Paramatma World is in our fist? Foolish thing!

Where is my real identification in the spiritual position then that soul will have to go higher and higher crossing the more valuable planes he is to go up. It is a farce!

In conclusion, the sahajiya imitationists should be considered as the enemy. The enemy means like that Quisiling of Norway. As with Vibhishan, his own brother was Ravana, the enemy who sprung up from the womb — his own family.

Imitation is bad. Imitation of the ordinary thing is rather better than imitation of the highest thing. That the highest thing is being exploited in such a low manner should be condemned with extreme hatred.

We can't see our own soul — that is our position. Engrossed in this gross matter of exploitation not even we can know what is our mind — what stuff it is made of; then what is justice, the judgment faculty within us — buddhi — independent of this world; then the soul; then SuperSoul area. Living in this mundane world dreaming that I have got the God of my dreams — it is a farce!

[Shakti-Fan]

 

Bhaktivinode Thakur says, dekho bhai kame preme veda naya — similar — tabu kama preme nahi haya — Still the lust is not love. Tumite bolite kama: you have accepted lust in place of love and if you give the stamp that this is prema — rakta vansha mayo kama this is concerned with flesh and blood but love is on the highest position of the spiritual existence (prema cidananda dhama).

So opposites: this Sumeru… South Pole and North Pole — the opposite. One is concerned with this body and another SuperSoul. There is a great gulf between: the ocean of dedication. At the top of dedication there is that sort of gopi-prema: wherever there is Krishna, it is there. And this is an imitation to that — treachery in the name of that highest thing.

 

Here the simple facts are stated: confusing lust and divine love, prema is sahajiyaism.

 

 

In conclusion, the sahajiya imitationists should be considered as the enemy. The enemy means like that Quisiling of Norway. As with Vibhishan, his own brother was Ravana, the enemy who sprung up from the womb — his own family.

Imitation is bad. Imitation of the ordinary thing is rather better than imitation of the highest thing. That the highest thing is being exploited in such a low manner should be condemned with extreme hatred.

 

Now the phrase "sahajiya imitationists" is used. Sometimes those who loosley follow Sridhar Maharaja will use the words imitationists and sahajiyas interchangably. Then what transpires is that anyone who does not give the exact siddhanta and mood given by Sridhar Maharaja are called imitationist which now implies sahajiyaism. Therefore by definition anyone who is not a formal follower of Sridhar Maharaja becomes and imitationist and therefore a sahajiya by this logic. (or lack of it). In the realm of "spiritual politics" this becomes particularly nasty for it is applied selectively. In acarya X says something which can be construed as even superficially different than Sridhar Maharaja then he is an imitationist. But if "Swami Maharaja" (Srila A.C. Bhaktivendanta Swami) has said the same thing that was spoken by acarya X then its just glossed over and ignored.

[taradevi]

Re:

"Krishna fits in where?

Your a Sahajiya Guru? How much experience do you have in the Sahajiya Vaishnava? Where does Krishna fit in? Do you know of Sahajiya Vaishnava Gurus?"

 

Om Tat Sat.

 

Namo Guru Sri Padmasambhavaye!

 

Namo Guru Sri Arya Taraye!

 

Yes, again, I am a classical Sahajayana guru, individually trained and licensed by a world renowned teacher who is the refuge of four million Buddhists, and who has licensed over two hundred Buddhist acaryas. Two of these senior acaryas can throw lightning. I've seen and felt it. The lineage is entirely real, even if Chinese have a really difficult time reciting and studying Sanskrit.

 

I have received highest level transmission from over forty Buddhist gurus, and complete cycles of transmission in the Nyingma and Kagyu schools of Indo-Tibetan Buddhism, which properly is called Vajrayana.

 

The energy yogas and awareness yogas of Lord Shiva and especially Kali are actually of crucial importance in esoteric Buddhist tantra. So is the Hindu / Buddhist deity Vajrayogini, and the Hindu / Buddhist deity Tara.

 

The personal protector of the Dalai Lama is wrathful Sri Devi. In Tibet she is called Palden Lhamo.

 

An absolutely primary and central practice of the Nyingma school is the deity Vajrakilaya, which is basically a sublimated Buddhist form of Lord Shiva, as the source tantras of Vajrakilaya clearly state.

 

An absolutely primary protector practice of all the New Schools of Tibetan Buddhism is Mahakala, who is no other than Shiva Mahakala. There are many forms of Buddhist Mahakala. The personal protector of the Karmapa is ( Shiva ) Mahakala in union with Sri Devi.

 

Many primary deities of Indo-Tibetan Buddhism carry the Trident ( trisula ) of Lord Shiva. It's a long list. The Buddhist trident has all the same meanings of the Hindu trident, such as piercing the Three Channels of the subtle body. The Buddhist trident also carries the meaning of "transcending the Three Worlds" of Desire, Form, and Formlessness. That is, the Kamadhatu, the Rupadhatu, and the Arupadhatu.

 

The Buddhist deity Cakrasamvara is essentially a form of Shiva, trident and all. This is clear from the fact that the Body Mandala practice of Cakrasamvara is essentially a restatement of Hindu Ayurveda subtle body / nadi energy lines. Cakrasamvara is absolutely central to all the New Schools of Tibetan Buddhism, the Sakya, the Kagyu, and the Gelugpa. So in that functional sense all New School lineages are strongly focused on the yogas of Shiva / Cakrasamvara. What is different is the philosophy, which as I have mentioned is called Mahamudra and Mahayana.

 

The Indian Guru Padmasambhava is almost always shown with a trident. For all intents and purposes, he is the Buddhist Lord Shiva, as human guru, sorcerer, avatar, and transcendent god. The guruyoga of Padmasambhava is practiced not only in the Nyingma / Earlier Transmission School ( every day by everyone ), but also very much in two of the Later Transmission or New Schools. In fact, there are gurus of the Sakya School and the Kagyu school who function some of the time as Nyingma lamas. Functionally speaking then, they have capabilities and practices that are essentially identical to major Shaiva gurus, but by a different name and with a different ( anatman ) philosophy.

 

The Sakya school retains a direct transmission of Vajrakilaya / Shiva from Padmasambhava in the Eighth Century Common Era, and the Karma Kagyu some centuris back incorporated much Nyingma practice until it is in effect half Nyingma. I have primary transmissions from principal and seniormost gurus of the Sakya, Kagyu, and Nyingma schools, including many full Cakrasamvara initiations, many Vajrakilaya transmissions, numerous transmissions of the Buddhist Kali ( known as Troma Nagmo in Tibetan ) and many many ultimate transmissions of Padmasambhava.

 

Simply put, if someone wanted to practice the yogas of Lord Shiva here in the West, I would recommend that they take Buddhist initiations of Cakrasamvara / Vajrayogini, Vajrakilaya, Mahakala, and the initiations of the mahasiddhas Padmasambhava and Milarepa. The practice texts are available.

 

Another alternative is the New School Tantra of Kalacakra. Kalacakra Deva is almost so completely a form of Mahadeva Shiva that it is embarassing to the Tibetan Buddhists. Look at the bijamantras for Kalacakra - they're all bijamantras very specific to Lord Shiva! "Hrm. Hrah. Hrum. Hrl." And so forth. Don't take my word for it. Read the Kalacakra initiation texts authorized by HH the Dalai Lama.

 

If you live in India, there are certainly large, well-attended, well-publicized empowerments for Tantraraja Kalacakra! These transmissions are given in Europe and North America as well. I received this empowerment twice.

 

I have full authorization for Hindu / Sanatana Dharma Shiva and for Hindu Kali.

 

The Hindu practices of Kundalini yoga passed down through the Sikh lineage and religion, which has a confused philosophy, being both Hindu Shakti, but also honoring the Middle Eastern god Allah, and apparently the birthday of Lord Buddha! Anyway, I received shakti / tantric empowerment from a Sikh lineage holder here in the West in 1980, and began a daily practice of kundalini yoga in the Hindu / Sikh tradition.

 

It is of course very strange to learn that the Sikh Guru Ram Das honored Allah. Anyway, the Sikhs sing "Adi Shakti, Adi Shakti Namo Namo". So I am certainly correct in seeing their practice as founded in the dharma of the Great Mother and Shiva. None of their mantras come from the wazifas ( sacred invocations ) of Allah or of the Islamic Sufis! And all Sufis are Islamists!

 

As a sahajayana guru who has studied some under Sufi teachers ( 1980 - 1983 ), I completely reject the bizarre notion that Sufis practice any thing like tantra, Hindu or Buddhist. The fact is that they don't. They don't use bijamantra or kundalini yoga or guru yoga or mandala or yantra or agni puja. Sufis are simple Middle Eastern Bhakti types with a minor affinity for outer Hindu devotionalism.

 

Now we have briefly introduced some of the correspondences or bridges between Hindu tantra and Buddhatantra. Note well that these are all Shiva oriented or Shiva based, such as Mahakala, Vajrakilaya, Cakrasamvara, and Kalacakra. The ones that are not in this category are oriented or based on the practices and tantras of Kali, Vajrayogini, or Tara.

 

Lord Krishna plays absolutely no part in Buddhist tantra, not in Nepal, Tibet, Mongolia, China, Japan, or any Buddhist lineage that passes into the West. You won't find more than bare references to Lord Brahma or Lord Visnu in any the Buddhist tantras. At most, Brahma and Visnu are VERY peripheral mandala deities in the retinue of Mahavairocana Buddha and so forth.

 

There is a major place for Hindu Goddesses and Shaivite manifestations in Buddhist tantra, but the interpretations are rather complex and fairly self-contradictory. Except for Tara, who is universally loved.

 

Really, the best way to connect up Hindu and Buddhist tantra is through the Buddhist texts and practices of the Noble Mother Tara. This gives the proper foundation and perspective. You can start with books like

"In Praise of Tara", by Martin Willson, and

"The Cult of Tara", by Stephen Beyer.

 

Vedacarya Dr David Frawley has an amzing and wonderful book on tantra and Hindu goddesses. It is called

"Tantric Yoga and the Wisdom Goddesses".

I strongly recommend this book to all who wish to understand or undertake any of the subjects of tantra, mantra, vajrayana, Hinduism, Buddhism, deity yoga, Goddess traditions, etc. This is truly profound Veda teaching from an authorized Vedic guru. Blessings of the Great Goddess to Dr. Frawley!

 

Of course, all this authentic tantric teaching as presented in these three books is completely incompatible with Judaism, Islam, and all received forms of Christianity, and therefore with "Sufism".

 

The esoteric traditions of Asia, whether Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist or Taoist, all connect through Buddhist vajrayana. This pan-Asian multi-faith tradition of yoga and dharma has no FUNCTIONING connection with Middle Eastern religion of any kind.

 

Sarva mangalam! Siddhi rastu!

 

Tara Devi

 

[Guest guest]

In China, Japan, Vietnam, Korea, Taiwan, and Hong Kong Radha and Krsna are worshipped in a hidden way. Just go to library and get any book on Weaving Princess and Cowherd Boy and you will see the Radha Krsna story. They are worshipped to this day even by the upper middle class people in best restaurants, shops, hotels on Ginza in Tokyo as well as most humble places during Star Day or Seventh Day of the Seventh Month.

 

If you google "Star Day" or "Weaving Princess and Cowherd Boy" you will see how the story of Radha and Krsna manifested in these different cultures. In these Eastern cultures is followed Confucianism in which there are five relationships one must honor of filial piety. Therefore does not go over well in those cultures that a married lady ran away from home into the forest with a lover and that is the highest relationship.

 

So they tweaked the stories so Radha is the daughter of Jade Emperor of Heaven, and she falls in love with a mortal who fits the descriptions of Krsna: a guy good-looking who steals her clothes from riverbank and makes her come and get them herself from him. She was bored in Heaven and played hooky from Heaven with her sisters and bathed in beautiful pristone pastoral setting on earth where there she encounter Cowherd Boy.

 

Then he asked her to marry when she retrieve her clothes from him. So she stayed with him in his simple hut. She had observed that although human he had best character and although covered with dust an honest fellow and hard-working and most handsome guy and brave and strong. Then I won't spoil the rest of story for you but this story has as its moral that one must not indulge in one's love life to the exclusion of one's duties. So it is in harmony with Confucianism.

 

Versus in India they tell the same story but the guy dumps the girl and she cries forever. She can never go back home and has to live in forest crying forever. In one sense this can be seen as cautionary tale also to young girls and ladies to be careful do not fall for some good looking guy because if you don't follow society's rules a sad ending for you. Better to just accept the husband your family pick for you even if he is boring and do not run to the forest to meet with a paramour otherwise bad situation for you.

 

 

 

Also I believe there is difference between the two terms sahajiya and sahajana which Srimati Taradevi is speaking of. The root words in Sanskrit of sahajana is sajjan or "great soul" perhaps? As you can tell she has researched very very carefully and has taken initiation from authorised teachers so this aids in intercultural communication and understanding between Hindusim and Buddhism what she is sharing.

 

 

 

Versus the term Sahajiya in Gaudiya Vaisnavism means "one who takes things very cheaply." Originally related to a practice you can learn about by viewing the film Water by Deepa Mehta.

 

In North India during certain period of time in Kali Yuga, any lady whose husband died was told to commit suicide or sent with no money to live in either Vrndavana or Varanasi. So had so many ladies there with no money some as young as eight years old.

 

So some these ladies they formed like tribal community in order to receive food since no money and some affection from some of the men who were like sexual predators already living there. Guys sitting there like spider in a web waiting for another fly to come into the web. They are only too happy to have predatory relationship with these ladies that their families so mercifully deliver to him by not allowing them to remarry and inherit property after death of the spouse like any lady can do in the West.

 

And such a great proportion of ladies to the guys so the guys say, "Oh is like Krsna and the gopis." Because the poor girls are chaste and now this hellish situation for them. They are crying and man is ready to sex them so to get girl he is hitting on to stop crying he tells her this.

 

But was just a survival mechanism based on the sinful greedy practice of heavy handed extortion tactics and myth that when husband dies it was the ladies' fault and she is sinful and can't remarry and no money or property to her. So if some lady is in position like that she is very vulnerable like street girls in the Western countries who look for a pimp to protect them when their family situation is very bad like get kicked out of the house or runaway due to incest or child abuse at home.

 

Nobody said to the girls, "Honey it's just as easy to remarry a rich man as a poor man so you go and find a nice new husband like Jackie O did." Or they don't say, 'Now honey you go and take this money from your spouse and get PhD and then be self-supporting." Or "Honey put this money into the stock market and when it's a bull market put it into EuroPacific mutual funds."

 

So Sahajiya was used to describe guys who go to a holy dhama and wear holy vestments and then hit on girls and take many groupies. This how it began. But then later on turned political that was a smear campaign that anyone disagree with me is sahajiya, due to nature of Kali Yuga quarrel and hypocrisy. Actually as in all fields of endeavors there are good people and bad people and the confused easily misled people everywhere and in every situation.

[Sridas]

A little more explainining what sahajiyaism is from Srila Sridhara Maharaj. Forget the politics.... just try to guide sincere souls thru the quagmire of these hybrid misconceptions that pose in the spiritual cloth of love and devotion to Krsna, but underrneath are really in the business of exploitation to attract and cheat the vulnerable.

 

So many classes of imitation are there, it is very difficult to understand from this jungle of different conceptions of imitationists. So to find the genuine thing is very difficult, hence the process, the steps of progress should not be omitted. It is given to us as to how we are to enquire, as to how we have to serve the method by a scientific investigation. Step by step we come to a conclusion, but if we take short cuts, the answer may be wrong.

A bona-fide student will avoid all kinds of imitation, sahajiyism. We have to cross through Bhu, Bhuvah, Maha, Jana, Tapa, Viraja, Brahmaloka, to Vaikuntha and ultimately Goloka, step by step.

Anuraga, our affinity for the Supreme Personality is not a very cheap thing. We have to understand who Krishna really is.

Those without dedication should not deceive themselves into thinking they can find Him in the area of the material zone.

Madhvacaryya gave one hundred points against mayavadism - mere renunciation. And our Guru Maharaj gave prakrita-rasa-sata-dusani one hundred points against this sahajiyism to guard against imitating Krishna-bhajan in our material life. So many ways, at every step we have to make decisions to go this way or that. Every moment we are at the crossing, but on the whole my sincerity will guide me. Deception and illusion are there, but the grace of the Lord is also there in the background. But He won’t allow these agents of deception to misguide me if I don’t associate with them.

Srila Rupa Goswami says we must observe vaidhi bhakti (regulative practice) for as long as we can’t get admission into the level of raga bhakti (spontaneous affection). Das Goswami also says we shall show reverence to raga bhakti, but we shall try to live within vaidhi bhakti, rules and regulations, shastra regulated devotion. But the arrogant do not care for this instruction of the followers of Sri Chaitanya Maharapbhu. There was a party of Hari Vamsa in Vrindavan who took the name Radha-Vallabha. They do not admit the necessity for formal devotion. Many others you will find in Vrindavan also. This party say they have connection with the Gopal Bhatta Gaudiya Sampradaya - vaisnavism with a little deviation. They want to begin with raga bhakti, anu raga.

Disciple: If they don’t have regard for vaidhi bhakti (regulated devotion )and go directly to raga-nuga bhakti, (spontaneous devotion) isn’t this something like sahajiyism?

Srila Sridhara Maharaj: Worse than sahajiyism. Sahajiyism formerly accepts everything, but they want easy entrance to do only what comes naturally without work, and they don’t admit the necessity for formal devotion. They are lazy in their practice, preferring the enjoying mood to the serving mood, but service means sacrifice. So the atmosphere is dangerous and any theistic awakening we should mark with all attention and care so that we may not go down again to the depths of nescience. Very carefully we shall try to collect our wealth. Real progress towards the Infinite gives the idea, “That I am nothing, I am in great danger.” Progress towards the Infinite is like that. “Thinking I have it, I am above.” This is a foolish feeling, foolish statement. The very nature of advancement is that, “I am low, I am undone, I am the most helpless.” The closer we are the further away we will feel, whereas the further away we actually are from divinity, we may complacently feel we are close. As much as we come into the relativity of the Infinite, we cannot but conceive ourselves to be the lowest of the low. That is the criteria... humility.

The very sign of real progress will show I am nothing, I am the most needy, the most wretched and the most helpless. The negative aspect must be improved to attract the positive. If one point of the negative will say, “I am positive” then immediately it will be rejected, you are under the false control of maya. Rather to think, “I am the meanest of the mean,” that will attract the attention of the high. This is the science of devotion proper.

<FONT size=3>When I first came here to Nabadwip, one boy used to dress as a woman. He would tell, “Oh, I have seen <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comKrishna</st1:place><font color=" /><st1:place><FONT color=black><FONT face="Arial Narrow">Krishna</st1:place><FONT color=black><FONT face="Arial Narrow"> and I have shown so many.” When he came to me, I said, “No, no, no, we know a little of what is <st1:place><FONT color=black><FONT face="Arial Narrow">Krishna</st1:place><FONT color=black><FONT face="Arial Narrow"> and how to see Him, also who can see Him. Some knowledge we have gathered from different scriptures and saints.” So I related some of it. Then he persisted, “I have shown <st1:place><FONT color=black><FONT face="Arial Narrow">Krishna</st1:place><FONT color=black><FONT face="Arial Narrow"> on the branch of this tamarind tree, so many have witnessed that.” I said, “In spite of your statement that you have shown <st1:place><FONT color=black><FONT face="Arial Narrow">Krishna</st1:place><FONT color=black><FONT face="Arial Narrow"> to so many, I disregard that.” Summarily this is all bogus. “Why are you cheating yourself”? I asked. “You are cheating the public and yourself, so be careful of that.” Then after some months that man came back to me and said, “What you say is all true.”<FONT color=black><FONT face="Times New Roman">

[Tirisilex]

Are you saying that Sahajiyas are like TV Christian evangelists.. They pretend to be filled with Christ but all they are is someone seeking fame and fortune.. Acting on the guise as a Bonafide Christians.. He pretends to be full of knowledge and wisdom.. Even can quote scripture like a bonafide preacher but it's all an act..

 

I'm confused because I see 2 diffrent arguements as to what a Sahajiya is.

The first being the Sahajiya Vaisnava.. Who are pretty much identical to Gaudiya Vaisnava but they disagree when it comes to sex.. Sahajiya accepts Tantric views of sex.

 

Where as the other Sahajiya is just someone who is a Heretic.. Who hides behind a guise.. Who pretends to know but really doesnt know much about Krishna or Is ignorant of Krishna but Teaches his ignorance to others.

[Beggar]

 

I'm confused because I see 2 diffrent arguements as to what a Sahajiya is.

The first being the Sahajiya Vaisnava.. Who are pretty much identical to Gaudiya Vaisnava but they disagree when it comes to sex.. Sahajiya accepts Tantric views of sex.

 

Where as the other Sahajiya is just someone who is a Heretic.. Who hides behind a guise.. Who pretends to know but really doesnt know much about Krishna or Is ignorant of Krishna but Teaches his ignorance to others.

I don't think you are confused. Sridhar Maharaja is giving "2 different arguements as to what a Sahajiya is". First those who confuse lust with divine love are classic sahajiyas. One of the primary reasons that they do this is that they "take it cheaply". It being divine love of Krsna which is not just a state of ecstacy but a manifestation of total dedication. Those who just want the ecstacy without the dedication and service mood are "taking things cheaply". It is like an imitation of the real thing. That's were the definition of sahajiya morphs into all forms of imitationism, which is in a senses a second conception. Someone who teaches about Krsna and "pretends to know but doesn't know is imitating a real teacher of Krsna Consciousness.

[Tirisilex]

Ive got it I think.. Kind of like people in christianity who goto church and participate in worship and talk about Jesus but once they leave church they go right back to their lives and forget about Jesus..

[raga]

The word "sahajiya" in its normal usage outside IGM circles, generally indicates the acceptance of a monistic theology aside the ritual sexual practices. Its usage within IGM hardly merits discussion, as everyone there has an opinion of what the word means, and we know how opinions are like a certain body part, everyone has one. Understand the standard usage of the word if you want to use it in a meaningful way.

[Guest guest]

 

The word "sahajiya" in its normal usage outside IGM circles, generally indicates the acceptance of a monistic theology aside the ritual sexual practices. Its usage within IGM hardly merits discussion, as everyone there has an opinion of what the word means, and we know how opinions are like a certain body part, everyone has one. Understand the standard usage of the word if you want to use it in a meaningful way.

 

Interesting to see your opinion about usage of the word sahajiya. Interesting too, that you promote yourself as someone whose vision of life, the universe and God is from a more broad standpoint. A more universal standpoint than the (in your opinion) narrow viewpoint of people inside "IGM circles".

 

The only thing is, while you say that in "IGM circles" people have a misinformed view of what things such as sahajiyaism are, you too are full of your own self-invented cliches that you have developed over the years, such as the term "IGM" which means something to you, no doubt, but which others outside your circle would never use in conversation.

[Guruvani]

 

The word "sahajiya" in its normal usage outside IGM circles, generally indicates the acceptance of a monistic theology aside the ritual sexual practices. Its usage within IGM hardly merits discussion, as everyone there has an opinion of what the word means, and we know how opinions are like a certain body part, everyone has one. Understand the standard usage of the word if you want to use it in a meaningful way.

That is why in the IGM tradition, the actual term is prakrita sahajiya.

A prakrita sahajiya is a materialistic sahajiya as opposed to an authentic sahajiya.

The term sahajiya in and of itself does not denote anything particularly bad, as does the term prakrita sahajiya which denotes the following of ones conditioned material nature and wrongly thinking it as spiritual as opposed to the pure concept of sahajiya - the following of one's innate spiritual nature.

 

The Saraswata acharyas specifically denounce the prakrita sahajiyas, not any form of true sahajiya.

[Tirisilex]

Whats IGM ???