stonehearted Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 There is always the possiblity that they are literal events that hold deeper meanings also although I do not think it to be the case or at least not always the case. Of course that's the case! They actually happen, and they have many layers of significance. These are, after all, the pastimes of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If multiple layers of meaning exist in mundane literature, how can transcendental literature be less interesting? As far as these particular assertions are concerned, there may be something in one of Srila Jiva Goswami's sandarbhas. I haven't read them much, so I can't say for sure. But Jiva is a source for much non-literal understanding of many aspects of the Bhagavatam. Has anyone here read them all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 I think that probably the false guru is functionally somewhat of the Putana type of evil. To say that Putana represents the pseudo guru is, I think, misunderstanding the allegorical concept. Putana was an evil, dark soul that was into witchcraft and demonic arts. She is not an allegory for a false guru. She was an evil living being. A false guru is a poison giver much like Putana, so that is why the Goswamis and acharyas sometimes draw a parallel between Putana and a false guru. Functionally, the false guru is Putana-like. Putana is not an allegorical figure that symbollically represents the false guru. Putana was an evil demoness. So, I think the allegorical principles are sometimes getting reversed or confused. I think the same thing holds true for all the other so-called allegorical explanations that are sometimes taken in the wrong light. Except in the stories that are said to be allegorical in the Bhagavatam, everything else was literal fact sometime in the history of the universe. The Bhagavatan does give some allegorical stories like the story of Puranjana, but unless the story is said to be strictly allegorical, it should be taken literally, otherwise the real meaning of the story can be lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 The Killing of Putana by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura Prabhupada (the following essay was printed in the January l932 edition of The Harmonist, or Sree Sajjanatoshani) The first act of New-born Infant Krishna recorded by the Bhagabatam is the slaying of the demoness Putana. The demoness Putana was deputed by King Kansa to kill all the newborn babies of the realm of Brag where the Divine sage Nard that his would-be slayer had been recently born informed him. Meanwhile Sherrie Krishna had been born in Kansa's prison and had been conveyed by His father Versed to the house of His foster parents Nana and Yasoda in Braja during the night of His advent. The guards of the prison had failed to detect the movements of Vasudeb who had returned to his prison with the new-born daughter of Yosoda with whom he had exchanged His own Boy without the knowledge of Yadosa herself. Vasudeb had carried Krishna in his arms across the flooded Yamaha lashed into fury by the tempestuous water of that moon-less night. He had waded on foot the deep waters which had been turned into yawning whirlpools by the fury of the tempest. The iron chains, bolts and locks of the barred gates of the prison had opened of their own accord on the approach of Vasudeb carrying Krishna to the home of His foster parents. The daughter of Yasoda was thereupon duly reported to King Kansa as the new-born-dreaded eighth issue of Devaki. The King rushed into the prison-cell on receipt of the tidings for which he had been waiting through long years of sleepless nights. He was at first willing to spare the life of the baby as the prophecy was to the effect that he would be killed by a male child, eighth issue of Vasudev and Devaki But he thought of being relieved of all possible doubts on the point by putting to death the new-born girl. As, however, King Kansa was on the point of dashing the baby on the block she escaped from the grip of the King and disclosing herself as the Deluding Energy of Godhead as she remained visible for a short time in mid-sky, assured the King of the certainty of the birth of his future slayer but dissuading him form the fruitless attempt of avoiding his fate by the cruel murder of innocent infants. Saying this Mahamaya disappeared from the view of the astounded King. Kansa was subsequently informed by the sage Narada that his future slayer must have been born among the denizens of Brag and that he was mindful of his safety he should lose no time in taking drastic measures for nipping the danger in the bud. This advice was relished by the blood-thirsty coward and he has accordingly deputed the demoness Putana to kill by an unsuspected process all the new-born infants of the surrounding country. The demoness Putana accordingly made her appearance in Braja and presented herself in the home of Yasoda during the absence of Nanda who was then in Mathura to pay the tribute due from him to King Kansa. The demoness has assumed the form of a most beautiful matron with a most benignant aspect as she approached the couch where Infant Krishna had been put to sleep by Yasoda. Yasoda noticed the unknown female as she entered the house, but did not suspect any foul play. She accordingly watched the new-comer without any anxiety as she made her way to the couch of the Baby, took Him up in her arms and offered her breast to the Infant to give Him to suck. But the nipples of Putana's breast has been tipped with the deadliest poison. The infant Krishna was aware of the intention of the demoness and took hold of the breast of the monster with His supple Arms. The grip of the Infant was so terribly severe that it was enough to drive the demoness to despair of her life as she was convulsed by the mortal agony of the pressure of Krishna's little Hands. The Infant then applied His lips to the breast of Putana and sucked away her life in an instant. The terrible monster bellowing with pain was compelled to disclose her own huge, loathsome demoniac form as she fell lifeless on the ground covering with her hideous carcass a long distance with Infant Krishna still clinging to her poisoned nipples. Accordingly the first act of the milkmaids, who with Yasoda rushed to the spot, was to snatch the Infant Krishna from the breast of the terrible demoness. Then they all marveled how the Baby could escape unhurt from the clutches of the demoness. They attributed the safety of the Infant to the mercy of the gods who are especially kind to the helpless. The affrighted milkmaids invoked the help of all the gods and goddesses for their continued protection of the Infant. Meanwhile, Putana was saved by her service to Krishna for having offered Him the suck of her poisoned breast. The author of the Bhagabatam is careful to mention that the good fortune of the demoness equaled that of Yasoda in as much as her breast had been sucked by Krishna. Putana, therefore, attained to the eternal status of the foster-mothers of the Supreme Lord in the Realm of the Absolute. The above narrative of the Bhagabatam embodies a most important moral for the seekers of the Absolute. Butbefore offering the interpretations of the texts favored by the former Acharyas I would like to draw the attention of the reader to certain possible misconceptions regarding the nature of the interpretations about to be offered. The transcendental meaning of the words cannot be conveyed to the senses of the conditioned soul so long as he does not agree to follow the method of submissive listening to the transcendental sound appearing on the lips of the pure devotee. There is a definite line of succession of the bonafide teachers of the truth. The bonafide teacher should be available sooner or later to the real seeker of the Truth. The bonafide Acarya is not recognizable by the hypocrites and atheists who do not really want to serve Godhead. So long therefore, as the bonafide teacher does not manifest his appearance to the pure cognitive essence of the seeker of the Absolute Truth it is necessary for the candidate for spiritual enlightenment to concentrate on self-examination to be able to avoid harboring any lurking traces of insincerity. The words of the sadhu are also available, by his causeless mercy, for bearing the efforts of such candidates, for finding out their own insincerity. It is by overlooking or deliberately neglecting to undergo this preliminary training for obtaining access to the transcendental meaning of all words that the literal interpretationists who follow the ordinary lexicographical meaning of the words of the scriptures fail to understand the necessity of never deviating from the interpretations offered by the self-realized souls to whom the transcendental meaning of the words is available. Those empiricists who, while following the lexicographical and syntactical method of the literal interpretationists, do not scruple to read their own meanings into the texts under the impression that the scriptures and the products of the human brain liable to every form of error and, therefore, fit to be corrected by the equally erring caprices of other hypothetical thinkers on the ground of allegations of error that cannot be proved, are disposed to think that the interpretations offered by the Acharyas are not scrupulously faithful to the texts and offer allegorical explanations for supporting their own sectarian views. These possible misunderstandings are stated to invite the attention of the reader to their bearing on the following interpretation of the narrative of Putana based on the exposition of the former Acaryas heard from the lips of the bonafide teacher of the Absolute. The interpretation is not offered as a literal lexicographical explanation nor as an allegory concocted in the light of empiric knowledge of the past history of the race and may accordingly be accepted as such. Shree Krishna manifests His Eternal birth in the pure cognitive essence of the serving soul who is located above all mundane limitations. King Kansa is the typical aggressive empiricist. He is ever on the look-out for the Appearance of the Truth for the purpose of suppressing Him before He has time to grow up. This is no exaggeration of the real connotation of the consistent empiric position. The materialist has a natural repugnance for the transcendental. He is disposed to think that faith in the incomprehensible is the parent of dogmatism and hypocrisy under the guise of religion. He is also equally under the delusion that there is and can be no really dividing line between the material and the spiritual. He is strengthened in his delusion by the interpretation of the scriptures by persons whoa re like-minded with himself. This included all the lexicographical interpreters. The lexicographical interpretation is upheld by Kansa as the real scientific explanation of the Scriptures and one that is perfectly in keeping with his dread of an aversion of the transcendental. These lexicographical interpreters are employed by Kansa in purring down the first suspected appearance of any genuine faith in the transcendental. King Kansa knows very well that if the faith in the transcendental is once allowed to grow it is sure to upset all his empiric prospects. There is historical ground for such misgivings. Accordingly if the empiric domination is to be preserved intact it would be necessary not to lose a moment to put down the transcendental heresy the instant it threatens to make its appearance in right earnest. King Kansa acting on this transitional fear is never slow to take the scientific precaution of debuting empiric teachers of the scriptures backed by the resources of Dictionary and Grammar and all empiric subtleties to put down, by the show of spacious arguments based on hypothetical principles, the true interpretation of the eternal religion revealed by the scriptures. Kansa is strongly persuaded that the faith in the transcendental can be effectively put down by empiricism if prompt and decisive measures are adopted at the very outset. He attributes the failures of atheism in the past to the neglect of the adoption of such measures before the theistic fallacy has time to spread among the fanatical masses. But Kansa is found to count without his host. When Krishna is born He is found to be able to upset all sinister designs against those who are apprised by Himself of His Advent. The apparently causeless faith displayed by persons irrespective of age, sex and condition may confound all rabid empiricists who are on principle averse to the Absolute Truth Whose Appearance is utterly incompatible with the domination of empiricism. But no adverse efforts of the empiricists, whose rule seems till then to be perfectly well-established over the minds of the deluded souls of this world, can dissuade any person from exclusively following the Truth when He actually manifests His birth in the pure cognitive essence of His soul. Putana is the slayer of all infants. The baby, when he or she comes out of the mother's womb, falls at once into the clutches of the pseudo-teachers of religion. These teacher are successful in forestalling the attempts of the good preceptor whose help is never sought by the atheists of this world at the baptisms of their children. This is ensured by the arrangements of all the established churches of the world. They have been successful only in supplying watchful Putanas for effecting the spiritual destruction of persons from the moment of their birth with the co-operation of their worldly parents. No human contrivance can prevent these Putanas from obtaining possession of the pulpits. This is due to the general prevalence of atheistic disposition in the people of this world. The church that has the best chance of survival in this damned world is that of atheism under the convenient guise of theism. The churches have always proved the staunchest upholders of the grossest forms of worldliness from which even the worst of non-ecclesiastical criminals are bound to recoil. It is not from any deliberate opposition to the ordained clergy that these observations are made. The original purpose of the established churches of the world may not be always objectionable. But no stable religious arrangement for instructing the masses has yet been successful. The supreme Lord Shree Krishna Chaitanya in pursuance of the teaching of the scriptures enjoins all absence of conventionalism for the teachers of the eternal religion. It does not follow that the mechanical adoption of the unconventional life by any person will make him a fit teacher of religion. Regulation is necessary for controlling the inherent worldliness of conditioned souls. But no mechanical regulation has any value even for such a purpose. The bonafide teacher of the religion is neither any product nor the favorer of any mechanical system. In his hands no system has likewise the chance of degenerating is not a lifeless arrangement. The mere pursuit of fixed doctrines and fixed liturgies cannot hold a person to the true spirit of doctrine or liturgy. The idea of an organized church in an intelligible form, indeed, marks the close of the living spiritual movement. The great ecclesiastical establishments are the dykes and the dams to retain the current that cannot be held by any such contrivances. They, indeed, indicate a desire on the part of the masses to exploit a spiritual movement for their own purpose. They also unmistakably indicate the end of the absolute and unconventional guidance of the bonafide spiritual teacher. The people of this world understand preventive systems, they can have no idea of the unprevented positive eternal life. Neither can there be any earthly contrivance for the permanent preservation of the life eternal on this mundane plane on the popular scale. Those are, therefore, greatly mistaken who are disposed to look forward to the amelioration of the worldly state in any worldly sense from the worldly success of any really spiritual movement. It is these worldly expectants who become the patrons of the mischievous race of the pseudo-teachers of religion. the Putanas, whose congenial function is to stifle the theistic disposition at the very moment of its suspected appearance. But the real theistic disposition can never be stifled even by the efforts of those Putanas. The Putanas have power only over the atheists. It is a thankless but salutary task which they perform for the benefit of their willing victims. But as soon as the theistic disposition proper makes its appearance in the pure cognitive essence of the awakened soul the Putanas are decisively silences at the very earliest stage of their encounter with new-born Krishna. The would-be slayer is herself slain. This is the reward of the negative services that the Putanas unwittingly render to the cause of theism by strangling all hypocritical demonstrations against their own hypocrisy But Putana does not at all like to receive her reward in the only form which involves the total destruction of her wrong personality. King Kansa also does not like to lose the service of the most trusted of his agents. The effective silencing of the whole race of the pseudo-teachers of religion is the very first clear indication of the Appearance of the Absolute on the mundane plane. The bonafide teacher of the Absolute heralds the Advent of Krishna by his uncompromising campaign against the pseudo-teachers of religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 I think that probably the false guru is functionally somewhat of the Putana type of evil.To say that Putana represents the pseudo guru is, I think, misunderstanding the allegorical concept. Putana was an evil, dark soul that was into witchcraft and demonic arts. She is not an allegory for a false guru. Prabhupada Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur has a different opinion from you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 Ms. Nixon: No, I agree with you one hundred percent.... One thing I'm very curious about: can the Vedas be taken symbolically as well as literally? Srila Prabhupada: No. They must be taken as they are, not symbolically. That is why we are presenting the Bhagavad-gita As It Is. Seems pretty clear to me. No possibility for anything other than a literal understanding of the texts. They must be taken as they are, not symbolically. That is why we are presenting the Bhagavad-gita As It Is.They must be taken as they are, not symbolically. That is why we are presenting the Bhagavad-gita As It Is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 Prabhupada Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur has a different opinion from you. be more specific...... Srila Prabhupada did not teach any allegorical understanding of these things. If he did, please show me where. Srila Prabhupada did not promote these allegorical concepts. Show me anywhere he has? The Bhagavatam itself does not portray these things as allegorical, so who can then do so? Putana was not an allegory bevis. Srila Saraswati Thakur didn't say that. He said that false preachers are Putanas. Putana was a poison given in the guise of mother. You can copy and paste a piece, but you can show where Bhaktsiddhanta says that Putana is an allegory for a false guru. You posted a copy/paste and claimed to defeat me, but really all you did make yourself look like an idiot. Show me anywhere that Saraswati Thakur says Putana is an allegorical figure. You can't. Basically, he said the same thing that I have been saying that false gurus are like Putanas. He certainly never said that Putana was an allegory. I didn't see that in the article you posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 The Killing of Putana by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura Prabhupada The first act of New-born Infant Krishna recorded by the Bhagabatam is the slaying of the demoness Putana. The demoness Putana was deputed by King Kansa to kill all the new-born babies of the realm of Braja, where he was informed by the Divine sage Narada that his would-be slayer had been recently born. Meanwhile Shree Krishna had been born in Kansa's prison and had been conveyed by His father Vasudeb to the house of His foster parents Nanda and Yasoda in Braja during the night of His advent. The guards of the prison had failed to detect the movements of Vasudeb who had returned to his prison with the new-born daughter of Yasoda with whom he had exchanged His own Boy without the knowledge of Yasoda herself. Vasudeb had carried Krishna in his arms across the flooded Yamuna lashed into fury by the tempestuous weather of that moonless night. He had waded on foot the deep waters which had been turned into yawning whirlpools by the fury of the tempest. The iron chains, bolts and locks of the barred gates of the prison had opened of their own accord on the approach of Vasudeb carrying Krishna to the home of His foster parents. The daughter of Yasoda was thereupon duly reported to King Kansa as the new-born dreaded eighth issue of Devaki. The King rushed into the prison cell on receipt of the tidings for which he had been waiting through long years of sleepless nights. He was at first willing to spare the life of the baby as the prophecy was to the effect that he would be killed by a male child, eighth issue of Vasudeb and Devaki. But he thought of being relieved of all possible doubts on the point by putting to death the new-born girl. As, however, King Kansa was on the point of dashing the baby on the block, she escaped from the grip of the King and disclosing herself as the Deluding Energy of Godhead as she remained visible for a short time in mid-sky, assured the King of the certainty of the birth of his future slayer but dissuading him from the fruitless attempt of avoiding his fate by the cruel murder of innocent infants. Saying this, Mahamaya disappeared from the view of the astounded King. Kansa was subsequently informed by the sage Narada that his future slayer must have been born among the denizens of Braja and that if he was mindful of his safety he should lose no time in taking drastic measures for nipping the danger in the bud. This advice was relished by the blood-thirsty coward and he had accordingly deputed the demoness Putana to kill by an unsuspected process all the new-born infants of the surrounding country. The demoness Putana accordingly made her appearance in Braja and presented herself in the home of Yasoda during the absence of Nanda who was then in Mathura to pay the tribute due from him to King Kansa. The demoness had assumed the form of a most beautiful matron with a most benignant aspect as she approached the couch where Infant Krishna had been put to sleep by Yasoda. Yasoda had noticed the unknown female as she entered the house, but did not suspect any foul play. She accordingly watched the new-comer without any anxiety as she made her way to the couch of the Baby, took Him up in her arms and offered her breast to the Infant to give Him suck. But the nipples of Putana's breast had been tipped with the deadliest poison. The Infant Krishna was aware of the intention of the demoness and took hold of the breast of the monster with His supple Arms. The grip of the Infant was so terribly severe that it was enough to drive the demoness to despair of her life as she was convulsed by the mortal agony of the pressure of Krishna's little Hands. The Infant then applied His lips to the breast of Putana and sucked away her life in an instant. The terrible monster bellowing with pain was compelled to disclose her own huge, loathsome demoniac form as she fell lifeless on the ground covering with her hideous carcass a long distance with Infant Krishna still clinging to her poisoned nipples. Accordingly the first act of the milkmaids, who with Yasoda rushed to the spot, was to snatch the Infant Krishna from the breast of the terrible demoness. Then they all marveled how the Baby could escape unhurt from the clutches of the demoness. They attributed the safety of the Infant to the mercy of the gods who are specially kind to the helpless. The affrighted milkmaids invoked the help of all the gods and goddesses for their continued protection of the Infant. Meanwhile, Putana was saved by her service to Krishna for having offered Him the suck of her poisoned breast. The author of the Bhagavabatam is careful to mention that the good fortune of the demoness equaled that of Yasoda in as much as her breast had been sucked by Krishna. Putana, therefore, attained to the eternal status of the foster-mothers of the Supreme Lord in the Realm of the Absolute. The above narrative of the Bhagabatam embodies a most important moral for the seekers of the Absolute. But before offering <strong>the interpretations of the texts favored by the former Acharyas</strong>, I would like to draw the attention of the reader to certain possible misconceptions regarding the nature of the interpretations about to be offered. There is a class of persons who insist on the texts being taken in their literal worldly sense. Much ingenuity has been expended for extracting meanings that may be satisfactory to the empiric judgment of the interpreters working by this literal method. Their argument is not unintelligible. As the revealed literatures are to be regarded as containing the information of the Absolute the language should be regarded as part and parcel of the meaning of the text. From this conclusion the literal interpreters jump to the wrong inference that it should be possible for the conditioned soul to ascertain the real meaning of the scriptures by sticking to the lexicographical sense of their actual wordings. This latter part of the argument is inapplicable to the subject which is transcendental. The words possess a double meaning. The lexicographical meaning refers to the entities of this world and is, therefore, inapplicable to the case. The esoteric meaning is not accessible to the gross senses and mind of the conditioned soul. This is the great and insuperable difficulty. <strong>The literal interpreters who follow the lexicographical meaning of the words err grievously in overlooking this all-important consideration.</strong> The transcendental meaning of the words cannot be conveyed to the senses of the conditioned soul as long as he does not agree to follow the method of submissive listening to the transcendental sound appearing on the lips of the pure devotee. There is a definite line of succession of the bonafide teachers of the truth. The bonafide teacher should be available sooner or later to the real seeker of the Truth. The bonafide Acharya is not recognizable by the hypocrites and atheists who do not really want to serve Godhead. So long therefore, as the bonafide teacher does not manifest his appearance to the pure cognitive essence of the seeker of the Absolute Truth it is necessary for the candidate for spiritual enlightenment to concentrate on self-examination to be able to avoid harboring any lurking traces of insincerity. The words of the sadhu are also available, by his causeless mercy, for bearing the efforts of such candidates, for finding out their own insincerity. It is by overlooking or deliberately neglecting to undergo this preliminary training for obtaining access to the transcendental meaning of all words that the literal interpretationists who follow the ordinary lexicographical meaning of the words of the scriptures fail to understand the necessity of never deviating from the interpretations offered by the self-realized souls to whom the transcendental meaning of the words is available. Those empiricists who, while following the lexicographical and syntactical method of the literal interpretationists, do not scruple to read their own meanings into the texts under the impression that the scriptures and the products of the human brain liable to every form of error, and therefore, fit to be corrected by the equally erring caprices of other hypothetical thinkers on the ground of allegations of error that cannot be proved, are disposed to think that the interpretations offered by the Acharya are not scrupulousy faithful to the texts and offer allegorical explanations for supporting their own sectarian views. <strong>These possible misunderstandings are stated to invite the attention of the reader to their bearing on the following interpretation of the narrative of Putana based on the exposition of the former Acharyas heard from the lips of the bonafide teacher of the Absolute.</strong> The interpretation is not offered as a literal lexicographical explanation nor as an allegory concocted in the light of empiric knowledge of the past history of the race and may accordingly be accepted as such. Shree Krishna manifests His eternal birth in the pure cognitive essence of the serving soul who is located above all mundane limitations. King Kansa is the typical aggressive empiricist. He is ever on the look-out for the Appearance of the Truth for the purpose of suppressing Him before He has time to grow up. This is no exaggeration of the real connotation of the consistent empiric position. The materialist has a natural repugnance for the transcendental. He is disposed to think that faith in the incomprehensible is the parent of dogmatism and hypocrisy under the guise of religion. He is also equally under the delusion that there is and can be no really dividing line between the material and the spiritual. He is strengthened in his delusion by the interpretation of the scriptures by persons who are like-minded with himself. This included all the lexicographical interpreters. The lexicographical interpretation is upheld by Kansa as the real scientific explanation of the Scriptures and one that is perfectly in keeping with his dread of and aversion of the transcendental. These lexicographical interpreters are employed by Kansa in putting down the first suspected appearance of any genuine faith in the transcendental. King Kansa knows very well that if the faith in the transcendental is once allowed to grow it is sure to upset all his empiric prospects. There is historical ground for such misgiving. Accordingly, if the empiric domination is to be preserved intact, it would be necessary not to lose a moment to put down the transcendental heresy the instant it threatens to make its appearance in right earnest. King Kansa acting on this traditional fear is never slow to take the scientific precaution of debuting empiric teachers of the scriptures backed by the resources of Dictionary and Grammar and all empiric subtleties to put down, by the show of spacious arguments based on hypothetical principles, the true interpretation of the eternal religion revealed by the scriptures. Kansa is strongly persuaded that the faith in the transcendental can be effectively put down by empiricism if prompt and decisive measures are adopted at the very outset. He attributes the failures of atheism in the past to the neglect of the adoption of such measures before the theistic fallacy has time to spread among the fanatical masses. But Kansa is found to count without his host. When Krishna is born He is found to be able to upset all sinister designs against those who are apprised by Himself of His Advent. The apparently causeless faith displayed by persons irrespective of age, sex and condition may confound all rabid empiricists who are on principle averse to the Absolute Truth Whose Appearance is utterly incompatible with the domination of empiricism. But no adverse efforts of the empiricists, whose rule seems till then to be perfectly well-established over the minds of the deluded souls of this world, can dissuade any person from exclusively following the Truth when He actually manifests His birth in the pure cognitive essence of His soul. Putana is the slayer of all infants. The baby, when he or she comes out of the mother's womb, falls at once into the clutches of the pseudo-teachers of religion. These teachers are successful in forestalling the attempts of the good preceptor whose help is never sought by the atheists of this world at the baptisms of their children. This is ensured by the arrangements of all the established churches of the world. They have been successful only in supplying watchful Putanas for effecting the spiritual destruction of persons from the moment of their birth with the co-operation of their worldly parents. No human contrivance can prevent these Putanas from obtaining possession of the pulpits. This is due to the general prevalence of atheistic disposition in the people of this world. The church that has the best chance of survival in this damned world is that of atheism under the convenient guise of theism. The churches have always proved the staunchest upholders of the grossest forms of worldliness from which even the worst of non-ecclesiastical criminals are found to recoil. It is not from any deliberate opposition to the ordained clergy that these observations are made. The original purpose of the established churches of the world may not be always objectionable. But no stable religious arrangement for instructing the masses has yet been successful. The supreme Lord Shree Krishna Chaitanya in pursuance of the teaching of the scriptures enjoins all absence of conventionalism for the teachers of the eternal religion. It does not follow that the mechanical adoption of the unconventional life by any person will make him a fit teacher of religion. Regulation is necessary for controlling the inherent worldliness of conditioned souls. But no mechanical regulation has any value even for such a purpose. The bonafide teacher of the religion is neither any product or the favorer of any mechanical system. In his hands no system has likewise the chance of degenerating into a lifeless arrangement. The mere pursuit of fixed doctrines and fixed liturgies cannot hold a person to the true spirit of doctrine or liturgy. <strong>The idea of an organized church in an intelligible form, indeed, marks the close of the living spiritual movement. </strong>The great ecclesiastical establishments are the dykes and the dams to retain the current that cannot be held by any such contrivances. They, indeed, indicate a desire on the part of the masses to exploit a spiritual movement for their own purpose. They also unmistakably indicate the end of the absolute and unconventional guidance of the bonafide spiritual teacher. The people of this world understand preventive systems; they can have no idea of the unprevented positive eternal life. Neither can there be any earthly contrivance for the permanent preservation of the life eternal on this mundane plane on the popular scale. Those are, therefore, greatly mistaken who are disposed to look forward to the amelioration of the worldly state in any worldly sense from the worldly success of any really spiritual movement. It is these worldly expectants who become the patrons of the mischievous race of the pseudo-teachers of religion, the Putanas, whose congenial function is to stifle the theistic disposition at the very moment of its suspected appearance. But the real theistic disposition can never be stifled even by the efforts of those Putanas. The Putanas have power only over the atheists. It is a thankless but salutary task which they perform for the benefit of their willing victims. But as soon as the theistic disposition proper makes is appearance in the pure cognitive essence of the awakened soul, the Putanas are decisively silenced at the very earliest stage of their encounter with New-born Krishna. The would-be slayer is herself slain. This is the reward of the negative services that the Putanas unwittingly render to the cause of theism by strangling all hypocritical demonstrations against their own hypocrisy. But Putana does not at all like to receive her reward in the only form which involves the total destruction of her wrong personality. King Kansa also does not like to lose the service of the most trusted of his agents. The effective silencing of the whole race of the pseudo-teachers of religion is the very first clear indication of the Appearance of the Absolute on the mundane plane. <strong>The bonafide teacher of the Absolute heralds the Advent of Krishna by his uncompromising campaign against the pseudo-teachers of religion.</strong> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 You can copy and paste a piece, but you can show where Bhaktsiddhanta says that Putana is an allegory for a false guru. Putana is the slayer of all infants. The baby, when he or she comes out of the mother's womb, falls at once into the clutches of the <b>pseudo-teachers of religion</b>. These teachers are successful in forestalling the attempts of the good preceptor whose help is never sought by the atheists of this world at the baptisms of their children. This is ensured by the arrangements of all the established churches of the world. They have been successful only in supplying watchful Putanas for effecting the spiritual destruction of persons from the moment of their birth with the co-operation of their worldly parents. <b>No human contrivance can prevent these Putanas from obtaining possession of the pulpits</b>. This is due to the general prevalence of atheistic disposition in the people of this world. The church that has the best chance of survival in this damned world is that of atheism under the convenient guise of theism. The churches have always proved the staunchest upholders of the grossest forms of worldliness from which even the worst of non-ecclesiastical criminals are found to recoil. On a technicality, you can claim you are right, since the word Guru is not used in this article. But if you read Sri Krishna Samhita or Sri Chaitanya Siksamrtam where this topic is discussed in detail you will see the word Guru used extensively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakti-Fan Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 Haribol, with all due respect, you gotta get rid of this theme that the vaisnava acaryas use "Devices" to try to reach people. It was Srila Prabhupada who personally coined the phrase "transcedental trickery". That didn't mean to lie to people to get them to give a donation for a book but it certainly meant to reach people by "devices" or "hook or crook" methods. Here, I do not believe that I am giving a "lexicographical interpretation." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 The churches have always proved the staunchest upholders of the grossest forms of worldliness from which even the worst of non-ecclesiastical criminals are found to recoil. What a priceless quote. Send that one to the GBC. The worst non-ecclesiastical criminals are recoiled or sickened by the immoral activities of church men. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted January 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 Of course that's the case! They actually happen, and they have many layers of significance. These are, after all, the pastimes of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If multiple layers of meaning exist in mundane literature, how can transcendental literature be less interesting? As far as these particular assertions are concerned, there may be something in one of Srila Jiva Goswami's sandarbhas. I haven't read them much, so I can't say for sure. But Jiva is a source for much non-literal understanding of many aspects of the Bhagavatam. Has anyone here read them all? Nice to hear your input again Babhru. I haven't yet found a simple concise way to say what I mean. But I will try once again. The confusion is around the word literal. There is the common understanding of something happening literally in the past like Thomas Jefferson and the Declaration of Independence or Gandhi's campaigns in India. Historical facts on this plane. Then I believe there is a transcendental literalism. Say Krsna lifting the factual "earthly" Govardhana Hill 5000 years ago. Now this would be a transcendental literal event due to the presence of Krsna since He Himself is the Ultimate Reality anything that is connected to His pastimes must be considered suprareal(is that a word?) or transcendental. I see this as also being true in the realm of literature, not historical accounts mind you, but I believe Krsna could enter into the mind of His pure devotee in the form of so-called "imagined" acts which due to the presence of Krsna would be literal and trascendental although not enacted on our common earthly plane but rather just in the mind of His devotee. And when His devotee wrote them down faithfully Krsna would still be there personally in the narrative. So in this way we could have accounts of the pastimes of Lord Krsna in the forest of Vrndavan with 8 mile long dead demon bodies crashing down in the forest without it actually happening on the gross physical plane. No one could say it wasn't literal just because there is no evidence for it happening that are five gross senses can register because literal is Literal due to the presence of Krsna and Krsna is literally there in the mind of His pure devotee. Like a pure devotee can cook and offer foodstuffs for Krsna soley within his mind and that is ever bit as literal and real as if he used his bodies working senses to do the same thing and offer it to the Deity in the temple. This is how I take the pastimes of Krsna as literal. He incarnated in literary form. The Srimad Bhagavatam is the literary incarnation of the Supreme personality of Godhead. There are other meanings and teachings within His actions as well that are meant to help us in the path back to Him. Another angle is it can be considered that the pastimes of Krsna, just the so-called surface pastimes like killing Putana, without the explanation of her being the false guru, is more Literal or Real than the explanation because the explanation deals with overcoming a mundane pyschological block to transcendence whereas Krsna's pastimes are that very transcendence itself. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted January 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 It was Srila Prabhupada who personally coined the phrase "transcedental trickery". That didn't mean to lie to people to get them to give a donation for a book but it certainly meant to reach people by "devices" or "hook or crook" methods. Here, I do not believe that I am giving a "lexicographical interpretation." Srila Prabhupada often had a slightly different connotation attached to his words then the ones we think he did. For instance he talked of the need to "cheat" a child into taking his medicine by putting it in candy" (paraphrased). That carries the idea of innocence in acting for the childs own good. But we might hear him say such a thing and conclude that meant we could cheat the karmis by short changing them or stealing their wallets while selling a book(for their own good) which is analogous to cheating or stealing candy from a child. Our material minds easily can turn the devotees message on its head if we are not careful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted January 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 The final question which was asked by Tosana about the validity of the story of the sparrow and the ocean, you should know that everything that is found in these scriptures is factual. There is nothing allegory. But you must not depend upon your own limited experience. What happens in different corners of the Lord's Creation no one can say. But we can hear from the authentic Vedic sources such as the Puranas. This story of the sparrow is found in the Puranas.---letter to Harer Nama LA 1968 Hear it seems Srila Prabhupada makes it clear in no uncertain terms that such stories are not allegories. Yet he says the opposite in a letter to Krsnadasa in 1972. So what to do.We can't use one statement as authoritative because it came from Srila Prabhupada and ignore the opposite opinion from the same source. Yet another reason not to worry over it and wait for the caitya-guru to fill in the details as He sees fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakti-Fan Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 Srila Prabhupada often had a slightly different connotation attached to his words then the ones we think he did. For instance he talked of the need to "cheat" a child into taking his medicine by putting it in candy" (paraphrased). That carries the idea of innocence in acting for the childs own good. But we might hear him say such a thing and conclude that meant we could cheat the karmis by short changing them or stealing their wallets while selling a book(for their own good) which is analogous to cheating or stealing candy from a child. Our material minds easily can turn the devotees message on its head if we are not careful. Transcendental trickery from Srila Prabhuapada's perspective would be to say, "this Krsna Conciousness Movement is so nice, there is simply chanting, dancing and feasting". Meanwhile the kitchen crew stayed up all night preparing the feast for the large group of devotees and guests. Another example would be where he would say, "the process of Krsna Consciousness is very easy". In both of these cases he's encouraging newcomers. Then sometimes he would say, "actually to become Krsna Conscious is not so easy". This would encourage the devotees who had been around for a while with there struggle to remember Krsna and control their senses. He told the book distributors, "Work very hard for Krsna one life. ..." Sometimes he would give a more complex instruction such as, "Krsna Consciousness is easy for the simple and difficult for the crooked." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted January 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 Transcendental trickery from Srila Prabhuapada's perspective would be to say, "this Krsna Conciousness Movement is so nice, there is simply chanting, dancing and feasting". Meanwhile the kitchen crew stayed up all night preparing the feast for the large group of devotees and guests. Another example would be where he would say, "the process of Krsna Consciousness is very easy". In both of these cases he's encouraging newcomers. Then sometimes he would say, "actually to become Krsna Conscious is not so easy". This would encourage the devotees who had been around for a while with there struggle to remember Krsna and control their senses. He told the book distributors, "Work very hard for Krsna one life. ..." Sometimes he would give a more complex instruction such as, "Krsna Consciousness is easy for the simple and difficult for the crooked." Nice examples Shakti-Fan. Another thing he would hold back was that beyond the kitchen work there were the often agganizing internal changes one could expect when confronting his own mind and the deep rooted (to the core level) enviousness of Krsna. Which brings us to the point of following in his footsetps and doing likewise when talking to folks. Emphasize the party portion and avoid anything that might be a strong point of conflict for them to where they become inclined to ignore the chanting itself by thinking they have to swallow other things they can't do. The chanting is the key. I have an example of what I mean and is a part of why I think we need to air all this out in a thread like this. From the Berkeley temple in the early ninties one small group of bhaktas went through a phase of going up to the UC @ Berkeley campus and debating(arguing) with the students there on their idea of the cosmology presented in the SB vs. modern science with special emphasis on the whole Mooon thing. This was not the folks from Bhativedanta Institute and happened before they came to share the temple there. I can only imagine how many people came to think of the Hare Krsna conscious movement as being based on fairy tales and fables and just laughed the whole thing off, while viewing the "debates" as some cheap entertainment between classes. Our great strength lies in the knowledge the SB gives on first the nature of the self as being disctinct from matter, we are not these bodies. That itself is mind boggling and throws all modern science into a tailspin so I believe this should be our point of attacking atheism in science form. Many of us are not educated enough to try to talk with their terminology and address the concepts that most excercise them. But we can make them come to us just by demanding they identify which part of the body or brain is the actual conscious living being. Forget the fantastic stories be they literal or allegorical. taking a firm position on either one is not enough to bring us into knowledge of the self nor came we benefit anyone else we try to convince on this level. First we need to learn and become established in sambandha-jnana. Who am I? Who is God? What is the nature of this universe and how do I relate to all of the above. And that is the first thing the people we met in everyday life need to learn. To go off onto other valueless tangents is just ego-tripping and if it serves to turn off people to krsna consciousness inquiry then it can also be seen as the greatest violence. Anyway it's time to party! "Let's get it started.... Ho" "Chant and be happy!" ps we need a little dancing bhakta icon. Do they make them? Or better yet dancing Gaura Nitai's ,smilie size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 A vaisnava acarya can do whatever is necessary because he hasw everyone's best interests at heart. What I am speaking of is the rampant speculation, pretense that one knows the mindset of the acarya. Read the posts, this "maybe he meant to do this" or he "must have made this statement to patronize believers of another religion". This is what made me speak up, not the transcendental trickery which is what Krsna does all the time. I never tire of hearing of actual events like Krsna as Rancor or other events which may tax mundane morality. What I do tire of is the constant second guessing of the acarya, saying he ":really did not mean this literally" or "he was saying this to appease". When one pretends to adop[t the mindset of the acaryas, this is dangerous and not acceptable under any circumstance. In ChCh there is a dispute between gaura ganodesa dapika, saying Prahlada came as such and such vaisnava saint in Chaitanya pastimes. Another latewr acarya dispute4d this, but srils prabhupada sets the example by not questioning the motive nor the meaning of either source. Our position is to just absorb the nectaqr, and not question the motives of the mahabhagavata. haribol, ys, mahaksadasa. Haribol, babhru, hope all is well with ya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted January 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 A vaisnava acarya can do whatever is necessary because he hasw everyone's best interests at heart. What I am speaking of is the rampant speculation, pretense that one knows the mindset of the acarya. Read the posts, this "maybe he meant to do this" or he "must have made this statement to patronize believers of another religion". This is what made me speak up, not the transcendental trickery which is what Krsna does all the time. I never tire of hearing of actual events like Krsna as Rancor or other events which may tax mundane morality. What I do tire of is the constant second guessing of the acarya, saying he ":really did not mean this literally" or "he was saying this to appease". When one pretends to adop[t the mindset of the acaryas, this is dangerous and not acceptable under any circumstance. In ChCh there is a dispute between gaura ganodesa dapika, saying Prahlada came as such and such vaisnava saint in Chaitanya pastimes. Another latewr acarya dispute4d this, but srils prabhupada sets the example by not questioning the motive nor the meaning of either source. Our position is to just absorb the nectaqr, and not question the motives of the mahabhagavata. haribol, ys, mahaksadasa. Haribol, babhru, hope all is well with ya Don't misunderstand me mahaksa I have spoken up on the same issue as you did a couple posts back and unfortuntately it will arise again I am sure. I am with you on challenging this c***. It has to stop. The devotee belongs to Krsna and we have no right trying to use him or his words in the service of our preconceived mis-conceptions. This is Ravanna in action not Hanuman. It blows my mind how anyone can make such strong professions on how they are a "Prabhupada man" and yet totally ignore Prabhpada when he clearly states the opposite of what they say he said or meant. It is sooo bogus. Better we don't profess so strongly with our words and let our deeds do the talking instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiva Posted January 21, 2007 Report Share Posted January 21, 2007 Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has told us: krsna-tulya bhagavata -- vibhu, sarvasrayaprati-sloke prati-aksare nana artha kaya Srimad-Bhagavatam is as great as Krsna, the Supreme Lord and shelter of everything. In each and every verse of Srimad-Bhagavatam and in each and every syllable, there are various meanings. And Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura has told us ...the literal interpreters jump to the wrong inference that it should be possible for the conditioned soul to ascertain the real meaning of the scriptures by sticking to the lexicographical sense of their actual wordings. This latter part of the argument is inapplicable to the subject which is transcendental. The words possess a double meaning. The lexicographical meaning refers to the entities of this world and is, therefore, inapplicable to the case. The esoteric meaning is not accessible to the gross senses and mind of the conditioned soul. This is the great and insuperable difficulty. The literal interpreters who follow the lexicographical meaning of the words err grievously in overlooking this all-important consideration. BSST was not rejecting the literal, rather he was telling us that sticking to the literal words of the scriptures will not enable a person to understand the esoteric meaning of the scriptures. The process for understanding the esoteric intent of the scriptures is to hear from the self realized spiritual masters who have direct access to the esoteric meaning of the scripture due to their having direct access to the source of the scriptures. BSST wrote: The transcendental meaning of the words cannot be conveyed to the senses of the conditioned soul as long as he does not agree to follow the method of submissive listening to the transcendental sound appearing on the lips of the pure devotee. This is from Katha Upanishad 1.2.23 nayam atma pravacanena labhyo na medhaya na bahuna srutena yam evaisha vrinute tena labhyas tasyaisha atma vivrinute tanum svam One cannot understand the supreme soul by studying the Vedas or by hearing many scriptures or by ones mental energy. The Lord reveals himself to the person who accepts the Lord as his master. That person alone attains the Lord. This is from Srimad Bhagavatam 10.14.29 athapi te deva-padambuja-dvaya- prasada leshanugrihita eva hi janati tattvam bhagavan mahimna na canya eko'pi ciram vicinvan My Lord, if one is favored by even a slight trace of the mercy of Your lotus feet, he can understand the greatness of Your personality. But those who speculate to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead are unable to know You, even though they continue to study the Vedas for many years. The astonishing pastimes of the Lord described in the scriptures may not be believable to all people due to the incredible nature of some of those pastimes. Those pastimes may have taken place exactly as described or there may have been some hyperbole here and there for poetic reasons or they may be some allegorical teaching in some places for various reasons. Srila Prabhupada wrote in a letter to Krsna das (Nov. 7, 1972): These things are not very important; we may not waste our time with these insignificant questions. There are sometimes allegorical explanations [in the Bhagavatam]. So there are many things which do not corroborate with the so-called modern science, because they are explained in that way. . . . So we are concerned with Krsna consciousness, and even though there is some difference of opinion between modern science and allegorical explanation in the Bhagavata, we have to take the essence of Srimad-Bhagavatam and utilize it for our higher benefit, without bothering about the correctness of the modern science or the allegorical explanation sometimes made in Srimad Bhagavata Either way the pastimes of the Lord can in fact be manifested exactly as they are are written about if the Lord desires. The Lord can do anything. This includes the slaying of giant magical creatures, or the lifting of a hill, or any of the things done by Krishna as described in the sastra. Did Krishna do everything as described? He can do them. There is also the esoteric intent of the Bhagavat which is not available in the literal words of the Bhagavat. From "The Bhagavat: It's Philosophy, It's Ethics, It's Theology" by Srila Bhakti Vinode Thakura Prayojana or Fruit In the position of complete realization of the activity of the uncovered soul a person becomes eligible for participation in the Transcendental Pastime or Lila of Sri Krishna (Bh. 1/7/10 and Sridhara Swami's commentary on the same). The realization of this all-absorbing Love for Sri Krishna is the FRUIT or Prayojana of the eternal spiritual activities of all pure souls. Sri Krishna is directly served by His plenary inner as His only consort. (Krishna serves himself by manifesting himself as Radha who is his "plenary inner". She is serving Krishna and she is Krishna. Krishna's desires for consorthood are fulfilled through Radha. In this way Krishna serves himself by manifesting as Radha in order to fulfill conjugal desires) The residents of Vraja, the plane of this inner service, are extensions of the figure of the plenary Divine Power. They are the Divine participants in the Divine Pastimes, as all those entities display the nature of the full servitorship of the Divinity. (Those are the direct expansions of Radha. Radha is the "plenary Divine Power". This is about the gopis who have the same as Radha because they are her personal expansions) Not so the souls of men, all of whom are susceptible to the temptations offered by the deluding face of the power for preventing the access of the nonresidents of Vraja to the Arena of the Divine Pastime. We, the sojourners of this mundane plane, have been thus kept out of the plane of Vraja by the deluding face of the Divine Power. Individual souls who are not part and parcel of the inner plenary power have no automatic access to the plane of Vraja. (Jivas who are not receiving the shelter of Radha and the Gopis) They are also lacking in spontaneous Love for Sri Krishna. It is possible for them to attain to the Love of Sri Krishna only as accepted subservients of the inhabitants of Vraja. (It is through being accepted as a servant of Radha's expansions that the jiva attains the love of Krishna) The first appearance of the spontaneous Loving aptitude for Sri Krishna in an individual soul elevates him to the condition of the madhyam-bhagavata (mediocre servant of Sri Krishna) as distinct from the condition of the maha-bhagavata who possesses Love for Sri Krishna in the plenary measure which makes him eligible for participating, as a subservient of the servitors of Vraja, in the Loving Activities of the highest sphere of service. In proportion as the hesitant, reverential, serving disposition of the madhyam-bhagavata is gradually developed, by the practice of pure service, into one of -subserviency to the inhabitants of Vraja in their unconventional performances of the highest Loving-services of Sri Krishna, such hesitation and distance are superseded by growing confidence and proximity to the Object of one's highest Love. Thereby the spiritual vision is perfected, in conformity with the natural capacity of an individual, and he is enabled to realize the full function of his specific spiritual self. Goloka-Vrindavana is realizable in the symbolic Vrindavana that is open to our view in this world by all persons whose Love has been perfected by the mercy of the inhabitants of Transcendental Vraja, and not other-wise. The grossest misunderstanding of the subject of the Vraja Lila of Sri Krishna is inevitable if these considerations are not kept in view. All persons, under the sinister influence of the deluding power of Nescience, are subject to such misunderstanding in one form or another. They are fated to see nothing but a mundane tract of country in the terrestrial (Bhauma) Vrindavana and the practice of the grossest forms of debauchery in the Vraja Pastimes of Sri Krishna. But the true esoteric vision of the maha-bhagavata is very different from realization of deluded humanity. It is described in Bhagavata 10.35.9 and sequel, and also in Chaitanya-charitamrita Madhya-Lila, 17-55: "When He (Sri Krishna-Chaitanya) catches sight of a wood, it appears to Him in the likeness of Vrindavana; when He looks at a hill, He betakes it as Govardhana." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2007 Report Share Posted January 21, 2007 I don't have a copy of the Vedabase but there is a question I would love to get an answer to. Could someone check and see if there are any references at all in the Prabhupada Vedabase where Srila Prabhupada quotes these books: Sri Krishna Samhita Chaitanya Siksamrtam Kalyana Kalpataru Saranagati Jaiva Dharma Bhagavat Lecture If the books are not mentioned then we may certainly wonder whether he had ever read them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted January 21, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2007 I don't have a copy of the Vedabase but there is a question I would love to get an answer to. Could someone check and see if there are any references at all in the Prabhupada Vedabase where Srila Prabhupada quotes these books: Sri Krishna Samhita Chaitanya Siksamrtam Kalyana Kalpataru Saranagati Jaiva Dharma Bhagavat Lecture If the books are not mentioned then we may certainly wonder whether he had ever read them. Sounds like a formula for some needless speculation to me. What if there is no mention of these books in particular? That would not prove rather he had read them or not only that he did not refer to them in his books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonehearted Posted January 21, 2007 Report Share Posted January 21, 2007 I don't have a copy of the Vedabase but there is a question I would love to get an answer to. Could someone check and see if there are any references at all in the Prabhupada Vedabase where Srila Prabhupada quotes these books: Sri Krishna Samhita Chaitanya Siksamrtam Kalyana Kalpataru Saranagati Jaiva Dharma Bhagavat Lecture If the books are not mentioned then we may certainly wonder whether he had ever read them. I have no doubts whatsover that he did read them. I know he read Jaiva Dharma, and he commissioned his disciple Goursundar to translate it into English in the early '70s. He mentioned Chaitanya Siksamritam several times and sang many of the songs from Saranagati, several of which are recorded. He also cited it here and there. It would probably have been unusual for one of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati's Bengali disciples who is as well versed in the philosophy as he (several of his Godbrothers wanted to give him the name Bhaktisiddhanta in the '30s, but there was some disagreement, and the matter was settled by Sridhar Maharaja with the name Bhaktivedanta) not to have read at least a good number of Bhaktivinoda Thakura's works in Bengali. The fact is that the books mentioned draw from the seminal Gaudiya Vaishnava works, so he may have found little or no need to cite them separately. It's funny to see how inclined we are to limit his experience of Krishna consciousness to our experience of what his life was like. One Godbrother once told me of being in Srila Prabhupada's room in Vrindavan when he was visited by an older gentleman. They spoke at length in Hindi or Bengali. When the man left, the disciple asked Srila Prabhupada, "Was that man one of your Godbrothers?" "No." "Was he a devotee?" "No." "Who was he?" "He is my friend." If you want to get an idea of how limited our experience of Srila Prabhupada's life in Krishna consciousness is, and how high is the regard for him held by those who knew him before he found us, you may read my friend and Godsister Mulaprakriti's book, Our Srila Prabhupada, a Friend to All. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2007 Report Share Posted January 21, 2007 babhru recounts this discussion: It's funny to see how inclined we are to limit his experience of Krishna consciousness to our experience of what his life was like. One Godbrother once told me of being in Srila Prabhupada's room in Vrindavan when he was visited by an older gentleman. They spoke at length in Hindi or Bengali. When the man left, the disciple asked Srila Prabhupada, "Was that man one of your Godbrothers?" "No." "Was he a devotee?" "No." "Who was he?" "He is my friend." mahak: This is a consciousness of high understanding. The problem we have with gurus is we stick them up on thrones (or crosses) and never let them down. This is our flaw. As this discussion indicates, Srila Prabhupada is completely free to relate to anyone anyway he sees fit. He is allowed friends. He is even allowed to have disciples who are friends. And he is allowed to erase a lot of the fear and reverence with his friends in favor of a more intimate flavor. This discussion, as simple as it is, is awesome. To me, it is the greatest glorification of Srila Prabhupada. Tanks, eh brah, ys, mahaksadasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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