A clarification on the ShAnkaran view of Self-Realization

January 18, 2007

A illusory jiva cannot apprehend Brahman, its very substratum, its

very existence.

Brahman cannot objectify Brahman -it is allpervasive, there are no

internal boundaries.

There is no question of the jiva "seeing" the reflected Brahman,

because Brahman being infinite there is no question of there being a

real "other" thing in which it can be reflected in.

How can the "mind" which is mithya reflect Brahman which is satyam?

praNAms Sri Shyam prabhuji

Hare Krishna

Yes, what you said above is very true...the mind which is *jada*

(inert)/upAdhi/anAtma vastu cannot reflect nityachaitanya svarUpa Atman.

Since the nature of Atman is itself the pure consciousness. It never

becomes an object for anything. He is self-established (svayaM

siddha)..Atman is ever *apramEya* & there is no need for any pramANa to

know this. As shankara said in gIta bhAshya (18-50) it is only necessary

to cease one's identification with not selves (anAtmavastu) with the help

of scriptures & gurUpadEsha. And there is absolutely not any necessity of

creating the direct knowledge of Him like an abrupt experience in a flash.

But interestingly, shankara says in the same gIta bhAshya (2nd chapter

sAnkhya yOga) that the mind is the instrument to realise the self which is

purified by the sAdhana of shama, dama etc. and endowed with the teaching

of scriptures and teacher. Here objection is same as above that you have

raised that there is no possibility of the self knowledge coz. the self is

not an objectifiable one by any means i.e. instruments such as sense organs

and the mind etc. For this objection Shankara has given the answer

*shAstrAchAryOpadEsha janita shamadamAdi susaMskrutaM *mana* Atmadarshane

karaNAm* Here shankara explicitly saying mind (mana) is the karaNa

(instrument) to *know* the Atman!!! and implying that Atman *can* become an

object (vishaya) of shuddha chittavrutti (purified mind)...

But we have to contextually understand this and should not carry away with

the notion that "yes, Atman can be objectified in front of the pure mind &

we can visualize (darshana) it like any other object...this is ofcourse

quite contradictory to shruti declaration that that which cannot be

expressed by the word and mind, that which cannot be thought of by the mind

etc. etc. ( in kEna and taitirIya we have these maNtra-s)..and at the same

time one should not discard the AcharyOpadEsha in sUtra bhAshya that shruti

etc. and immediate intuition and the like too are the means according to

the context ( shankara on *janmAdasya yaTha* 2nd vEdAnta sutra). When

shankara said mind is the instrument, it has to be understood that when

mind turns towards the self/Atma vichAra the mind loses its *private*

identity and its mindness (manastva) itself. or in short we can say this

purified mind will become one with Atman when one realizes his true nature

of Self...shankara calls this as jnAnAvrutti.

But this is anyway, as we have seen, many people misinterpreted and started

declaring Atman has been objectified by this vrutti and Atman can be

*seen*/visualized in a particular trance state and it is Atma sAkshAtkAra

that we are thriving and after this sAkshAtkAra we can develop *brahman*

shaped vrutti (brahmAkAra vrutti) etc. etc. Let us not go into that mess

once again.

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

January 18, 2007

advaitin, "krithivasan_sukumaran"

<krithivasan_sukumaran wrote:

> Then what is this theory part and practical part?

> Suku

ShrIgurubhyo namaH

Namaste Sukumaran ji,

While thinking about the above subject, what immediately comes to

mind is the broad lay-out of the Brahma Sutras. The entire

structure of the BS is studied as consisting of four main divisions,

adhyAyas:

1.Samanvaya - the reconciliation of the apparently mutually

contradicting Shruti passages and arriving at the conclusion that

all the Upanishads have the Non Dual Brahman alone as their main

purport.

2. Avirodha: Non-contradiction of the other non-vedantic smritis

with the Upanishads.

3. SAdhana: Dealing with a variety of topics connnected with the

sadhana like samyagdarshanaat puruShArtha siddhi, including the

various means to Atman Realization, etc. Dhyana, samAdhi, etc. are

spoken of here. Sutras: III.ii.6.23, 24 in particular.

4. Phala: the final fruit of Realization and liberation, jivanmukti,

etc.

The first of these could be said to be the shravana part. The

second, the manana part, the third, the nididhyasanam part and the

fourth, the Realization and Liberation part.

These could be broadly divided into: the first as the theory part

and the last two as the practical part. The third will fall in the

first, strengthening the shravana by removing inconsistencies, and

become the foundation to the third/fourth for firm practice.

Quite coincidentally, even while i had been thinking of the above,

this morning's listening of Sw. Paramarthananadaji's Kathopanishad

lecutures was in its concluding session. This is the Summary that

Swamiji gives for the Second (last) chapter of the K.Up. To my

pleasant surprise, this whole talk exactly reflected the above

pattern. He traces the theory part and the practical part and

delves on the role of Nirvikalpa Samadhi. In case you have access

to this last ever of this series, you may hear and benefit from the

speech.

A verse from the VivekachuDamani (67) brings to light the idea with

a telling example:

AptoktiH, khananm, thathOpari shilApakarShaNam, svIkRitim,

nikShepaH samapekShate na hi bahiH shabdaistu nirgacchati.

tadvad brahmavidOpadesha, manana, nididhyAsanaadibhir labhyate

mAyAkArya-tirohitam svam amalam tattvam, na tu duryuktibhiH.

67. As a treasure hidden underground requires (for its extraction)

competent instruction, excavation, the removal of stones and other

such things lying above it and (finally) grasping, but never comes

out by being (merely) called out by name, so the transparent Truth

of the self, which is hidden by Maya and its effects, is to be

attained through the instructions of a knower of Brahman, followed

by reflection, meditation and so forth, but not through perverted

arguments.

Note that the distinction between the theory and the practical part

is obvious in the above verse. Also note that shama, dama, etc. are

all the preparations for the very saadhana that includes shravana,

manana and nididhyasana. The role of shama, etc. will be immensely

appreciated in the manana and even more in thenididhyasana part

which is the penultimate stage for the direct realization of the

Atman.

In the Brihadarnayaka Up. there is the famous Yajnavalkya-Maitreyi

dialogue (II.iv.5). After giving a description of the glory of the

Atman which, on a comparative basis with every other object of the

world, emerges as the most lovable, desirable entity, Sage

Yajnavalkya proceeds to tell her about HOW one should obtain the

Atma darshanam, direct realization, of the Self. This is the famous

seminal Atma sadhana definition of the Vedanta most often quoted:

Atmaa vaa arey drashtavyaH, shrotavyo, mantavyo, nididhyAsitavyaH.

The meaning and the Acharya's commentary, translated by Sw.

Madhavananda is:

The Self should be realized - should be heard of, reflected on and

meditated upon. By the realization of the SElf, my dear, through

hearing, reflection and meditation, all this is known.

The commentary: //Therefore the Self should be realized, is worthy

of realization, or should be made the object of realization. (the

original words are: darshanArhaH, darshana-viShayatAm

ApAdayitavyaH) It should first be heard of from a teacher and from

the scriptures, then reflected on through reasoning, and then

steadfastly meditated upon Thus only is It realized - (Evam hi asau

dRishto bhavati) when these means, viz. hearing, reflection and

meditation, have been gone through. When these three are combined,

then only true realization of Brahman is accomplished, not

otherwise - by hearing alone. //

Here too, the theory-practical scheme is quite apparent.

In the Kathopanishad too there are specif mantras to indicate the

practical part of the sadhana. I.iii.13 is one such. Just prior to

this was the description of the Self. To the mantra succeeding

this, the Acharya introduces: The means for His attainment is being

stated. (Tat pratipattyupAyam Aha.)

One can see this scheme in the Taittiriya, Mundaka and the Mandukya

too. In the Mandukya Upanishad, for the very last mantra, 12, the

Acharya comments: //the syllable Om, when meditated upon in the

propery way, becomes HELPFUL afor the realization of Brahman. In

support of this is the Kaarika III.16.//

We have this Kaarika II.32:

There is no dissolution, no origination, none in bondage, none

striving or aspiring for salvation, and none liberated. This is the

highest truth.

A question would arise: When such is the declaration, where is the

need for saadhana and subsequent realization of the Self?

But, when we juxtapose the Asparsha Yoga that the Kaarikas III. 39

onwards delineate as the means to realize the Self, it would become

clear that what was stated in the II.32 above is ABOUT the ultimate

Truth and what is stated in III.39 onwards is the practice to

realize that Truth. In the Kaarika III.37, there is the word

samAdhiH. The AchArya comments for this word: //It is realizable

through the insight arising out of the deepest concentration

(smaaadhi). Or It is called sammadhi because It is the object of

concentration.//(translation by Sw.Gambhirananda)

Here too the theory and practical parts are clearly discernible.

I shall conclude by quoting Sw.SacchidAnandendra Saraswati from his

book 'Intuition of Reality: ON page 11 he says:....Shankara's

Advaita.....leads the seekers of Truth to the peculiar Ituition by

dint of which they become perfectly aware of their eternal oneness

with the ONe Atman or Brahman, the Only Reality without a second.//

A dictionary meaning of the word 'intuition': As verb intransitive

and transitive: Know by intuition, receive knowledge by direct

perception.

As noun: Immediate apprehension byu the mind without reasoning;

immediate apprehension by sense; immediate insight.

Intuitionalism: Doctrine that the perception of truth is by

intuition.

Let me add a small note to Br.Vinayaka ji in particular:

In my understanding, a deliberation of the above meanings of the

word 'intuition', it can be conclusively said that this intuition

that the Swamiji mentions all over this book is the equivalent of

the sAkshAtkAra through the 'akhandaakAra vritti' of the Vedanta.

He has not used this term, but the reading of the above book,

especially the AdhyAtma Yoga part that he has highlighted in the

end, where the process leading to the Realization of the Truth,

involving STILLING of the mind and senses, can be nothing other than

the abrupt arisal of the a.vritti (intuition), perception of the

Truth, and destruction of ignorance and establishment in the Non-

dual Truth. Though he has not explained the process in this detail,

there is no doubt that this is what he means. For, in common

parlance, when we know something by intuition, which occurs quite

sometimes, what happens is: the intuition plays the role of an

instrument to give a 'x' knowledge and the ignorance about that 'x'

knowledge is no longer there and what remains is the knowledge

derived thereby. What is most important for you, Br. Vinayaka ji,

is 'the intuition that brought about this knowledge itself subsides

after doing its function of generating that knowledge.' This is

what is meant by the 'subsiding' of the a.vritti after sAkshAtkAra.

With warm regards,

subbu

Om Tat Sat

January 18, 2007

advaitin, "subrahmanian_v" <subrahmanian_v

wrote:

>

> In my understanding, a deliberation of the above meanings of the

> word 'intuition', it can be conclusively said that this intuition

> that the Swamiji mentions all over this book is the equivalent of

> the sAkshAtkAra through the 'akhandaakAra vritti' of the Vedanta.

> He has not used this term, but the reading of the above book,

> especially the AdhyAtma Yoga part that he has highlighted in the

> end, where the process leading to the Realization of the Truth,

> involving STILLING of the mind and senses, can be nothing other than

> the abrupt arisal of the a.vritti (intuition), perception of the

> Truth, and destruction of ignorance and establishment in the Non-

> dual Truth. Though he has not explained the process in this detail,

> there is no doubt that this is what he means. For, in common

> parlance, when we know something by intuition, which occurs quite

> sometimes, what happens is: the intuition plays the role of an

> instrument to give a 'x' knowledge and the ignorance about that 'x'

> knowledge is no longer there and what remains is the knowledge

> derived thereby. What is most important for you, Br. Vinayaka ji,

> is 'the intuition that brought about this knowledge itself subsides

> after doing its function of generating that knowledge.' This is

> what is meant by the 'subsiding' of the a.vritti after sAkshAtkAra.

Dear Subbuji,

Namaste,

It is an impossible task to put exactly in black and white how one

realizes the self. But one thing is sure it is realizable and that is

only means to get liberated from this world of dualities.

In the 9th Chapter of the Gita Lord Sri Krishna himself has said that:

idam tu te guhyatamam pravAkShyamanasuyave|

jhAnam vijhAnasahitam yatjhAtvA mokShyaseshubhAt||

Now, I shall reveal to you, who carp not, this most recondite

knowledge and its realization by mastering which you will be liberated

from evil.

In the bhashya acharya explains:

kim tat? kim viShiShtam? vijhnanasahitam anubhavayuktam

What is indicated by this? Knowledge and its realization or

experience. Mastering it, you wil be 'liberated from evil'-the bondage

of empirical existence.

(Translated by A.G. Krishna Warrier RKM publication)

In another upanishat it is told that: When that Atman is seen, all the

knots of the heart are cut, all ignorance will vanish once for all.

Yours in Sri Ramakrishna,

Br. Vinayaka

January 18, 2007

In my understanding, a deliberation of the above meanings of the

word 'intuition', it can be conclusively said that this intuition

that the Swamiji mentions all over this book is the equivalent of

the sAkshAtkAra through the 'akhandaakAra vritti' of the Vedanta.

He has not used this term, but the reading of the above book,

praNAms Sri Subbu prabhuji

Hare Krishna

I regret to say that the above is your own interpretation of my swamiji's

stand. Kindly dont think the below is pickings to show your ignorance

about my paramaguruji's stand on Atma sAkshAtkAra..but this is just a

clarification to the neutral readers : In the *Salient Features of

Shankara's Vedanta* at page No. 79, in Appendix, Sri Sri SatchidaanandEndra

says :

// quote //

Persons unable to understand this truth have conceived the theory of

Atma-SakshatkAra (self-realization) for which they imagine that practices

like the repetition of the Mahavakyas (texts like *Tat-twam-asi*-That thou

art), laya-chintana (merging the objective world in Brahman by means of

meditation) or the practice of Patanjala yoga, are necessary.

// unquote//

Prabhuji, kindly note, unlike your above imagination, my paramaguruji above

explicitly mentioned the term Atma sAkshAtkAra which is equivalent to your

brahman shaped vrutti (brahmAkAra vrutti) / indivisible shaped vrutti

(akhanda AkAra vrutti.. *akhanda* but still has AkAra--akhandAkAra). I

think above *direct* quote my swamiji's own work clarifies his stand on

Atma sAkshAtkAra, patanjala yOga's samAdhi etc. Not only in this book,

there are plenty of references you can find in all through his works in

Kannada, English, Sanskrit ...wherein he categorically denies these

assumptions/claims from later vyAkhyAnakAra-s...Let us not go into those

details. For the time being, my humble request to you is stop selectively

quoting my parama guruji's works. If you need support for these

terminologies you will get aplenty from bhAmati / vivaraNa schools' works &

please goahead with them...For heavens sake kindly dont drag unnecessarily

my swamiji's name in this mess.

I apologise in advance if I hurt your feelings...

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

January 18, 2007

Peterji :

You write :

( Sri Ramana Maharshi did recognise Kundalini. )

OfCOurse , A Param Yogi like sri Ramana could never deny the

presence of 'Kundalini shakti ' in the human body ... in fasct, the

bhagwan's gaze itself can 'activate' the kundalini shakti in a

spiritual aspirant - such is His yogic shakti !

Having said that let me clarify Bhagwan's position on this a little

further :

Sri Ramana Maharshi: Though the Yogi may have his methods of breath

control for his object, the Jnani's method is only that of enquiry.

When by this method the mind is merged in the Self, the Sakti or

Kundalini, which is not apart from the Self, rises automatically.

The Yogis attach the highest importance to sending the Kundalini up

to the Sahasrara, the brain centre or the thousand petalled lotus.

They point out the scriptural statement that the life current enters

the body through the fontanelle and argue that, Viyoga (separation)

having come about that way, yoga (union) must also be effected in

the reverse way. Therefore, they say, we must, by yoga practice,

gather up the Pranas (vital force) and enter the fontanelle for the

consummation of yoga. The Jnanis on the other hand point out that

the yogi assumes the existence of the body and its separateness from

the Self. Only if this standpoint of separateness is adopted can the

yogi advise effort for reunion by the practice of yoga.

In fact the body is in the mind which has the brain for its seat.

That the brain functions by light borrowed from another source is

admitted by the yogis themselves in their fontanelle theory. The

Jnani further argues: if the light is borrowed it must come from its

native source. Go to the source direct and do not depend on borrowed

sources. That source is the Heart, the Self.

The Self does not come from anywhere else and enter the body through

the crown of the head. It is as it is, ever sparkling, ever steady,

unmoving and unchanging. The individual confines himself to the

limits of the changeful body or of the mind which derives its

existence from the unchanging Self. All that is necessary is to give

up this mistaken identity, and that done, the ever shining Self will

be seen to be the single non-dual reality.

If one concentrates on the Sahasrara there is no doubt that the

ecstasy of Samadhi ensues. The Vasanas, that is the latent mental

tendencies, are not however destroyed. The yogi is therefore bound

to wake up from the Samadhi because release from bondage has not yet

been accomplished. He must still try to eradicate the Vasanas

inherent in him so that they cease to disturb the peace of his

Samadhi. So he passes down from the Sahasrara to the Heart through

what is called the Jivanadi, which is only a continuation of the

Sushumna. The Sushumna is thus a curve. It starts from the lowest

Chakra, rises through the spinal cord to the brain and from there

bends down and ends in the Heart. When the yogi has reached the

Heart, the Samadhi becomes permanent. Thus we see that the Heart is

the final centre.

[Note: Commentary by David Godman: Sri Ramana Maharshi never advised

his devotees to parctise Kundalini Yoga since he regarded it as

being both potentially dangerous and unnecessary. He accepted the

existence of the Kundalini power and the Chakras but he said that

even if the Kundalini reached the Sahsrara it would not result in

realisation. For final realisation, he said, the Kundalini must go

beyond the Sahasrara, down another Nadi (psychic nerve) he called

Amritanadi (also called the Paranadi or Jivanadi) and into the Heart-

centre on the right hand side of the chest. Since he maintained that

self-enquiry would automatically send the Kundalini to the Heart-

centre, he taught that separate yoga exercises were unnecessary.

The practitioners of Kundalini Yoga concentrate on psychic centres

(Chakras) in the body in order to generate a spiritual power they

call Kundalini. The aim of this practice is to force the Kundalini

up the psychic channel (the Sushumna) which runs from the base of

the spine to the brain. The Kundalini Yogi believes that when this

power reaches the Sahasrara (the highest Chakra located in the

brain), Self-realisation will result.

*Sri Ramana Maharshi taught that the Self is reached by the search

for the origin of the ego and by diving into the Heart. This is the

direct method of Self-realisation. One who adopts it need not worry

about Nadis, the brain centre (Sahasrara), the Sushumna, the

Paranadi, the Kundalini, Pranayama or the six centres (Chakras).*

http://www.hinduism.co.za/kundalin.htm

On this day dedicated to Guru , my ananta koti namaskaramas to Atma

guru sri sri Ramana bhagwan maharishi !

Aum Sri Gurubyo namaha !

January 18, 2007

advaitin, bhaskar.yr wrote:

>

> If Reality Itself is Time also(kAlo.asmi .... Gita 11:32), why

> discount time-related events?

> >

> it is just because nirvikAri brahman & the *socalled* its realization

> cannot be restricted to time bound/related events...Shankara in sUtra

> bhAshya says both dEsha & kAla *vishaya* and anAtma vastu...and in

mAndUkya

> bhAshya shankara says Atman is dEsha & kAlAtIta while describing

deepsleep

> state...

Namaste Bhaskarji,

atIta does not mean a separate entity; it only means Brahma

is not limited or bound by it (whether kAla, or desha, or guNa, or even

dharma). Brahman being all-inclusive, even Time can be realized as

a 'vibhUti' or 'yogamaishvaram' by a sAtvika antaHkaraNa capable of

gaining the 'divya chakShu' through Divine Grace.

Regards,

Sunder

kAla = Time

desha = space

guNa = modes/attributes

vibhUti = extra-ordinary manifestations

yogamaishvaram = divine power

sAtvika = pure

antaHkaraNa = inner instrument of knowing (mind, memory, inteelect, ego)

divya chakShu = 'eye' of wisdom

January 19, 2007

For the time being, my humble request to you is stop selectively

> quoting my parama guruji's works. If you need support for these

> terminologies you will get aplenty from bhAmati / vivaraNa schools'

works &

> please goahead with them...For heavens sake kindly dont drag

unnecessarily

> my swamiji's name in this mess.

Dear Bhaskarji,

PraNams,

Please refer to the message no:33976

Subbu-ji has quoted from one of the works of SSS which is as under:

`Gitaa-shAstraartha-vivekaH' (An exposition of the system of the

Bhagavad Gita) is a book authored by Swami SacchidAnandendra

Saraswati, in Sanskrit. This work contains a succinct overview of

the entire Gita in several chapters. Here, in this post, two

specific chapters from this book viz., `dhyAnayoga viveka'

and `yogadarshana upasangraha' are taken up for presentation.

An analysis on the method of a `compare and contrast' study of the

Patanjali Yoga and the Bhagavadgita is taken up.

He concludes the post by the following quote from the aforementioned

work of Swamigal:

77. The content of the abhyasa, practice, that is demanded for the

meditation directed at Realization: This `abhyasa', it is to be

remembered, is in endeavouring to make the Atman conducive to

become `realizable'. The abhyasa is taught in 6.35. After quoting

the Acharya's bhashyam, the Swami gives a note detailing the

correspondence between the terms used in Patanjali system with the

ones in the Gita. Mano-nigraha is synonymous with chitta-nirodha.

It is this abhyasa that is meant by the word `nididhyasana' in the

Shruti.

In conclusion, the Swami makes a compare-contrast study between the

Yoga of Patanjali and the Gita/Vedanta. The salient features of

this study are: