GBC Never Authorized to Terminate Ritvik System

[suchandra]

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja very deliberately, decisively and directly used ritvik terminology in regards to passing on his succession in his official and formal declaration of spiritual succession.

It was no accident.

It was no blip.

It was no slip.

It was no blunder.

 

It was a very deliberate and decisive pronouncement that I am sure he had years to ponder.

 

It's not up to you or me or anyone else to say that the ritvik concept is the death of ISKCON or the parampara.

That is just mental mushrooms popping-up in your head.

 

The wisdom and forethought of Sridhar Maharaja are far beyond your miniscule rational thinking process and decisive factor.

 

Your determination of the danger and destructive result of a ritvik system is just speculations and imagination.

 

One thing we don't have to speculate about or imagine in our minds is the final instructions of Sridhar Maharaja regarding his spiritual succession and his appointing Govinda Maharaja as ritvik.

 

This instruction of Sridhar Maharaja has more wisdom, power and beauty to it than all our imaginative thoughts about how bad it would be if we just followed the acharyas instead of trying to second-guess them.

 

If ritvik was the death of ISKCON and SCSMatha, Srila Prabhupada and Sridhar Maharaja would not have implemented such measures.

 

Claims of the death and destruction of ISKCON and SCSMatha if the instructions of the acharyas were actually followed is just our little minds refusing to accept that inconceivability is always an issue we have to deal with when approaching the infinite.

 

The infinite can't be caged-up or bottled-up with stereotypes.

But, our nature is to try to do that anyway.

I did not say that the ritviks are wrong and that Srila Sridhar Maharaja and Prabhupada did not order a ritivk system. Fact is that presently we have no ritvik systems in both Prabhupada's succession and Sridhar Swami's succession. What you say might be correct, but who listens? Nobody listens because it is not your job. It is Krishna's department only to correct glanir/deviation in His parampara system. Yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata. Our business is to perform devotional service, bhakti-yoga. Why are you interefering what is Krishna's business? Therefore nothing happens since 30 years, because people want to interfere with their pea-brain what is actually a problem only Krishna can solve. And Krishna repeatedly reminds us that He takes care and helps the devotee, somehow we cant accept. No, I have to do this. Result: Havoc. If all the ritviks would have simply stayed within ISKCON, by now Krishna would have solved all the problems concerning "which diksa-system does work". Now things are getting more and more complicated because our human brains once again display shortcoming. Krishna knows better how to deal with troubles on the path of bhakti-yoga. Why people have no faith and reject when Krishna promises to lead His devotee on the path of perfection?

[Guruvani]

 

What you say might be correct, but who listens? Nobody listens because it is not your job.

 

It's not my job, but it's my hobby.

 

I don't get paid to do it.

I do it for fun.

[suchandra]

 

It's not my job, but it's my hobby.

 

I don't get paid to do it.

I do it for fun.

So, Mr.Guruvani, you're after fun and hobby, what about the fun and hobby to teach others to chant Hare Krishna, or to find out frustrated people in Florida who want to change their farm into a Krishna centered household? Oh, this is not so much fun, they're all demons? Using the world-wide internet to push Krishna aside from His serving the devotees by keeping His own personal parampara system genuine, clean and free from cheaters is more fun? Let's see if Krishna considers this as so funny or not. At least I couldnt yet find any sloka in BG where Krishna tells His devotees, "My dear devotees, whenever there are rascal leaders in your temple, please fight against them forever because I'm too afraid, helpless and foolish to accomplish this too difficult task."

Instead when reading about Prahlad Maharaja's terrible situation, Krishna perfectly solved the problem very quickly with lasting effect.

But may be according Guruvani prabhu this happened in another time where Krishna was much more inclined towards His devotees and now this is all over and Krishna does nothing anymore to help His devotees because it is kali-yuga and we have to do it all ourselves, teaching the world that there're false gurus and fighting 24h daily against people who were never appointed by Prabhupada.

At least Prabhupada didnt consider it as funny to endlessly expose the non-preaching GM leaders sitting in their temples and honouring prasadam while Prabhupada preached in NY, but instead had fun and opened one temple after the other because he allowed Krishna to help him.....And because Krishna was fully involved it had many side effects too: the GM also started to preach globally. Why not try this kind of fun/hobby?

[Guruvani]

 

So, Mr.Guruvani, you're after fun and hobby, what about the fun and hobby to teach others to chant Hare Krishna, or to find out frustrated people in Florida who want to change their farm into a Krishna centered household? Oh, this is not so much fun, they're all demons?

Well, to tell you the truth, I am a well known person around this town. I know hundreds of people in my home town. I am just another local fixture.

 

I relate with the common folk probably more than you ever do.

I don't treat people like demons.

Some of my best friends are "karmimeat-eatersChristians" and "non-devotees".

I am sure I have hundreds more "karmi" friends than you will ever have, so to accuse me of treating non-devotees as demons is just your imagination.

 

I treat everyone with respect, whether they are old black men hanging out at the corner market or wealthy and prominent businessmen.

 

I know hundreds of people in this town and hundreds of people know me and like me.

This town is like my hometown now and I can't drive down the road or go to the supermarket without running into several locals that respect me and treat me like family.

 

Demons?

Man you need to look at your own situation.

 

I have very friendly and sociable dealings with hundreds of these "demons" that you refer to.

[theist]

 

By now newcomers have learned that Krishna removes neophyte gurus with different methods of His handwriting which arent fully qualified to sit on the vyasasana and even if some havent learned from the past but become within their hearts, by reading Prabhupada's books, devotees of Krishna, Krishna will surely always protect such rare souls and ultimately show them the right path.

There are always new newcomers coming. Once someone has learned the basic INTERNALS of this movement he is no longer a newcomer. But while in the newcomer status if they are a little innocent they can be shown the proper way or be mislead. Yes it is Krsna's job but we may desire to be a small tool that Krsna uses.

 

 

When we see gurus falling down one by one, even like epidemic fall down, this is Krishna's problem not ours. If Krishna considers these people to be removed from sitting on the vyasasana, whoever appointed them in the first place, then why is this my problem?

From one angle I agree but from another I see it as everyone's problem. Devotees do not like to see other's cheated in spiritual life. Devotees also regret the suffering condition of those pretenders because of their lack of spiritual taste that makes them think cheating others is the path to bliss instead of loving Krsna and serving others.

 

 

What happened when the ritvik movement started to grow? The GBC did the opposite, appointed even more gurus. To speak of our responsibility for installing a safety system, this is another meddling into Krishna's department. Krishna is the only real safety system.

 

I agree here.

 

 

False gurus is a topic since the creation of the universe, Krishna is well aware of this problem and surely knows endless stories of pseudo gurus throughout creation and also has the best ways of treating this problem. Therefore He Himself created a parampara system which only He Himself controls. It is clearly His department only to sort out swindlers and to protect the devotees, not anybody else's.

Same point as above. I agree but need to qualify it by saying those that those that know the truth have a duty to speak the truth. This is not the same as someone becoming so obsessed with the "guru" issue that they live breath and think of nothing else, meanwhile neglecting to tell others (souls in general) about the basics of God consciousness.That is another mental disorder.The self proclaimed ritviks are a good example of this. At least the one's I have met. I have felt a seething hatred for anyone who wants to live outside of their paradigm. I have been the recepient of this when saying that all of Srila Prabhupada's disciples can rise to the standard and accept disciples. I avoid the ritviks for this reason.

[Guruvani]

 

What happened when the ritvik movement started to grow? The GBC did the opposite, appointed even more gurus.

The appointing of more gurus in ISKCON had nothing to do with outside pressure from ritviks.

The ritvik voices have never had any affect on the GBC.

 

The GBC expanded the guru class in ISKCON to include all the shaker and movers for political purposes and it had NOTHING to do with any sqwauking from ritvik proponents.

 

None of them were advocating ritvik.

 

It was about consolidating their political alliance.

Fear of ritvikism has never been a factor in the policies of the GBC.

 

It was about silencing the insiders who would all end up turning on each other with insider information if the BIG GUNS didn't get their rubber stamp from the GBC.

 

Every sannyasi in ISKCON wanted to play guru.

None of them had the least interest in promoting ritvikism.

[Guest guest]

Oh those poor victims are being cheated by those cheaters.

 

Maybe we could help?

 

Ahhh, why bother. It is their karma anyway. They want to be cheated.

 

Plus Krsna will take care of it. Maybe one day he will just appear out of the pillar during mangals arotik, and snatch the picture of the bhogi yogi who the pujari is making an offering to, spin around and hold it up and give discourse to the congregation as to why he won't accept food offered in ignorance to a sinister fallen soul.

 

Not saying he couldn't do this, but please stop smokin, and start caring.

 

I have heard just about every pathetic excuse for not following the orders of the acharya, every excuse on the shelf of the lower astral plane, and they all sound just perfect at the time to the lazy heartless devotee who pretends to know something about disciplic succession, when they haven't even succeeded to follow the Guru's order.

 

And of course every disciple of Srila Prabhpada's can possibly become so advanced that they would be giving discipline to others, others who at that point could in truth be considered their disciples. As a matter of fact most are engaged in such activity on some level or another.

 

As far as being advanced enough to Initiate a disciple and follow that up on their own power without help from anyone but the Lord, not a chance. And even if there were a few who emerged, they would pridelessly act under the Lord's internal potency in a way that effectively preached the gospel without compromising their Guru's institutional system.

 

Of course they would be so advanced that they would humbly claim to be only a ritvik, strictly following the orders of their spiritual master, and if wise may be able to explain the utility of such a system towards the end of reducing emphasis on formality in a very formal world, and trying to show us the essence of Diksa which is actual surrender and obedience to the one who is trying to save your butt and burn ALL YOUR SINS, followed by chanting what he chanted and not changing a thing, except the inevitable transcendental personal flair in the telling.

 

Jaya Gurudeva

[theist]

 

Of course they would be so advanced that they would humbly claim to be only a ritvik, strictly following the orders of their spiritual master,...

 

This is an interesting and I think very important and perhaps pivitable point. It was observed in Srila Prabhupada that he was always seeing himself as a servant and representative of his spiritual master, the parampara and Krsna, all of whom he always held on his head.

 

He also appeared to be confident that he himself was a bone fide link to Krsna and not just a ritvik representative of Bhaktisiddhanta. He did not tell his disciples that he was not their spiritual master and that they should consider themselves direct disciples of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati. Bhaktisiddhanta was clearly his disciples spiritual grandfather.

 

These may appear to contradict but I don't think they do. I believe guru can exhibit different moods at different times which from our contaminated angle of vision may seem to contradict but are in reality all manifestations of the devotees different moods. What makes these different moods noncontradictory is that they are all in proper relation to Krsna. The spiritual reality is infinitely variegated.

 

I would have no problem with Srila Prabhupada saying "I am the way the truth and life and no one comes to Krsna but through me" for example while at the same time explaining he is only the servant and messenger of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta.

 

In the same way if one of his disciples was similarly realized (which surely will be/is the reality then they could make the same statement. The devotee is bhakti personified and that is the only way to reach Krsna.

[Guest guest]

 

In the same way if one of his disciples was similarly realized (which surely will be/is the reality then they could make the same statement. The devotee is bhakti personified and that is the only way to reach Krsna.

 

Hare Krsna!

 

I believed you missed the point.

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhu did not make a public declaration, nor a private one to Srila Prabhupada that we know of, of the same nature as Srila Prabhupada's institutional directive. We know what he wanted for his Matha. After Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's disappearance, Srila Prabhupada appeared to play a similar role to the one that Srila Bhakti Rakshak Sridhar Maharaja would play to Iskcon's leaders.

 

Srila Prabhupada was faced with their extreme denial of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's wishes, and probably advised them the best he could considering their delicate fallen condition, what could he do?

 

He was certainly pure enough a devotee to be Acharya, but they would not recognize him for who he was, they wanted to hear what they wanted to hear. So he wound up going off to start his own Matha.

 

As long as the information is still widely available as to what Srila Prabhupada ORDERED regarding HIS matha, none of his TRULY ADVANCED disciples would make such a statement as Theist relates above, unless they were going it alone, without the support of Srila Prabhupada's institutional properties, both intellectual and physical.

 

Any truly valuable "realization" comes when chastity is prominent, and this was a test of the chastity of all his disciples, have no doubts about it. Those of you still on the fence are flirting with similar disaster which has befallen those who have "realized so much" that they could certainly "make the statement", yet not start their own branch.

 

Anyone who is so mundane that they need a sane and regulated society to be part of in order to make gradual spiritual advancement (like me), can find no better paradigm blueprint than Srila Prabhupada's recommendations regarding Daivi Varnasrama as an aid to the practice of Bhakti Yoga. Society equals brahmins, equals priests. Can we just deal with it?

 

One can be in a much lower and hellish position than a slightly mixed and motivated Brahminical priest following the program of one very dear to our Lordships, Sri Sri Radha and Krsna.

 

If anyone will actually become eligible in the future to have a glorious run as acharya somewhere in the Sankirtana lila, perhaps a ritvik priest is not a bad place to increase one's surrender and service mood.

 

Jaya Sri Guru and Gauranga

[theist]

Yada Yada Yada ....More words meant to cloud the simple truth.

 

The Parampara is not on the level of madhyama adhikari realization. The Parampara is on the transcendental level and it cannot be brought down to a mixed condition. It is up to the mixed devotees (us) to rise up to the transcendental standard.

 

Your attempt to drag transcendence down to the mixed platform is a criminal conspiracy. Zonals are criminals. The ecclesiasticals and the flip side of that same coin the ritviks are also such criminals.

 

All these groups are each an unnecessary disturbance in society.

[krsna]

Clear teachings to bring us closer to the goal: KRSNA!.

 

"One should not proudly think that one can understand the transcendental loving

service of the Lord simply by reading books... One must accept a Vaisnava guru

(adau gurv-asrayam), and then by questions and answers one should gradually

learn what pure devotional service to Krsna is. That is called the parampara system."

 

(Cc. Antya-lila 7.53, purp.)

— HDG Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

[Guest guest]

 

 

The Parampara is not on the level of madhyama adhikari realization. The Parampara is on the transcendental level and it cannot be brought down to a mixed condition. It is up to the mixed devotees (us) to rise up to the transcendental standard.

 

Your attempt to drag transcendence down to the mixed platform is a criminal conspiracy. Zonals are criminals. The ecclesiasticals and the flip side of that same coin the ritviks are also such criminals.

 

All these groups are each an unnecessary disturbance in society.

 

Jaya Gurudeva

 

Coming from a person who self professes to be striving toward the brahma-bhuta stage, I will just take that last concoction about the realization of the madhyam and the hows and whys of Parampara, with no scriptural support to back it up, to be a simple mistake of the tounge.

 

And the rest of the shaming blame game of accusations against me and others to be symptomatic of why your tounge slipped.

 

If you could only see how Transcendence includes the mixed platform, your loneliness and attendant problems would quickly cease. See you there.

 

Hare Krsna

[Guest guest]

 

Death surrounds me, but my life is sublime. Disease eats me, but my life is sublime. I have disappointed concerns for some of my peers who I hear about thru the gossip of me and my peers, but my life is sublime. Im retired, but now I work hard 60 hours a week. All the money I make goes down the drain of political slavery. But my life is sublime, because I took up the process offered by the great gift giver, Srila Prabhupada. I never had a use for his buildings or the funding or the following, it was just a one-on-one proposition. I chanted, my life is sublime, he has given me eternal life even in this dying carcass I have temporarily holding me.

 

So, excuse me for not understanding why others lives are not very sublime, how they crave for something more than he gives. Why didnt it work?

 

 

Thank you for these inspiring words.

 

Ultimately we judge everything by the results. But the intelligence to properly understand what the results are comes from Krsna. Thus a dull man will see one life and will declare it to be a failure, yet in the eyes of an intelligent devotee it will be seen as glorious.

 

All our "battles" on this forum are a waste of time if they do not bring us closer to Krsna and inspire us to serve Hime better. If we are motivated in these exchanges to simply push our views, we are wasting time. We are here just to share the good spiritual food that sustains us, because the more of it we give away, the more of it flows our way from Sri Guru.

[Guest guest]

 

Yada Yada Yada ....More words meant to cloud the simple truth.

 

The Parampara is not on the level of madhyama adhikari realization. The Parampara is on the transcendental level and it cannot be brought down to a mixed condition. It is up to the mixed devotees (us) to rise up to the transcendental standard.

 

Your attempt to drag transcendence down to the mixed platform is a criminal conspiracy. Zonals are criminals. The ecclesiasticals and the flip side of that same coin the ritviks are also such criminals.

 

All these groups are each an unnecessary disturbance in society.

 

Jaya Sri Guru,

 

To put it another way, consider any disciple of Srila Prabhupada, who is purely following and thus a pure devotee.

 

That devotee may be on the neophyte platform or the madhyama platform.

 

But if he is purely following, he could find himself in the position of representing Srila Prabhupada in so many ways. As long as he is aware of what type of action will serve his Guru's pleasure, he acts in a way which is transparent to transcendental current.

 

So each devotee involved in greeting and teaching a newcomer is functioning in their own capacity as Siksa Guru. Including the local persons (usually TP)in charge of recommending new aspriants to Srila Prabhupada, and including the ritvik who represents the Acharya at the formal initiation ceremony.

 

So any disciple who is competent by qualification to give formal initiation may do so when another person appears ready. This might be a recommendation by another local authority such as a TP, or who knows, the disciple may be very brahminical, flying solo and wearing many hats.

 

But as soon as the person utters the words, "I am your initiating Guru", the current is lost. If they are a disciple of Srila Prabhupada representing his institution called Iskcon, they lose their transparency to the what ever transcendental current is being passed from the Uttama.

 

They then become a kanistha or madhyama guru, or perhaps a fallen cheater, but in any case, the new aspirant gets what they get, and that is NOT the direct shelter of the Uttama Acharya who will handle all their sins in a compact for all eternity.

 

No we see the result of such institutionalized Diksa in the smarta communities of India. Sometimes the reality of spiritual flow in such circumstances borders on nil.

 

However, Srila Prabhupada might give an advanced disciple the inner guidance to utter those words "I am your initiating Guru", but knowing Srila Prabhupada just a little I may still safely state that he would NOT encourage that person to do so within Iskcon, because he is kind and merciful not a sadistic provacateur.

 

Clear enough?

[Guest guest]

 

Jaya Gurudeva

 

Coming from a person who self professes to be striving toward the brahma-bhuta stage

Hare Krsna

Brahma-bhuta means knowledge and detachment. Strive for bhakti and knowledge and detachment automatically develop as secondary characteristics of bhakti:

vāsudeve bhagavati

 

 

 

bhakti-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ

 

janayaty āśu vairāgyaḿ

 

jñānaḿ ca yad ahaitukam

 

SYNONYMS

 

vāsudeve — unto Kṛṣṇa; bhagavati — unto the Personality of Godhead; bhakti-yogaḥ — contact of devotional service; prayojitaḥ — being applied; janayati — does produce; āśu — very soon; vairāgyam — detachment; jñānam — knowledge; ca — and; yat — that which; ahaitukam — causeless.

 

TRANSLATION

 

By rendering devotional service unto the Personality of Godhead, Śrī Kṛṣṇa, one immediately acquires causeless knowledge and detachment from the world.

 

PURPORT

 

Those who consider devotional service to the Supreme Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa to be something like material emotional affairs may argue that in the revealed scriptures, sacrifice, charity, austerity, knowledge, mystic powers and similar other processes of transcendental realization are recommended. According to them, bhakti, or the devotional service of the Lord, is meant for those who cannot perform the high-grade activities. Generally it is said that the bhakti cult is meant for the śūdras, vaiśyas and the less intelligent woman class. But that is not the actual fact. The bhakti cult is the topmost of all transcendental activities, and therefore it is simultaneously sublime and easy. It is sublime for the pure devotees who are serious about getting in contact with the Supreme Lord, and it is easy for the neophytes who are just on the threshold of the house of bhakti. To achieve the contact of the Supreme Personality of Godhead Śrī Kṛṣṇa is a great science, and it is open for all living beings, including the śūdras, vaiśyas, women and even those lower than the lowborn śūdras, so what to speak of the high-class men like the qualified brāhmaṇas and the great self-realized kings. The other high-grade activities designated as sacrifice, charity, austerity, etc., are all corollary factors following the pure and scientific bhakti cult.

 

The principles of knowledge and detachment are two important factors on the path of transcendental realization. The whole spiritual process leads to perfect knowledge of everything material and spiritual, and the results of such perfect knowledge are that one becomes detached from material affection and becomes attached to spiritual activities. Becoming detached from material things does not mean becoming inert altogether, as men with a poor fund of knowledge think. Naiṣkarma means not undertaking activities that will produce good or bad effects. Negation does not mean negation of the positive. Negation of the nonessentials does not meant negation of the essential. Similarly, detachment from material forms does not mean nullifying the positive form. The bhakti cult is meant for realization of the positive form. When the positive form is realized, the negative forms are automatically eliminated. Therefore, with the development of the bhakti cult, with the application of positive service to the positive form, one naturally becomes detached from inferior things, and he becomes attached to superior things. Similarly, the bhakti cult, being the supermost occupation of the living being, leads him out of material sense enjoyment. That is the sign of a pure devotee. He is not a fool, nor is he engaged in the inferior energies, nor does he have material values. This is not possible by dry reasoning. It actually happens by the grace of the Almighty. In conclusion, one who is a pure devotee has all other good qualities, namely knowledge, detachment, etc., but one who has only knowledge or detachment is not necessarily well acquainted with the principles of the bhakti cult. Bhakti is the supermost occupation of the human being.

[theist]

 

But as soon as the person utters the words, "I am your initiating Guru", the current is lost.

This is so bogus. Despite all the places where Srila Prabhupada indicated how after him his disciples would start their own branches and have their own disciples you make such a statement.

 

 

 

If they are a disciple of Srila Prabhupada representing his institution called Iskcon, they lose their transparency to the what ever transcendental current is being passed from the Uttama.

 

A disciple represents his spiritual master and not directly his instituiton. Don't mistake the energy for the energetic. Institutions can and do fail whereas the devotee never fails to please Krsna. Your not discriminating between the two is the problem here.

 

I can agree Iskcon would be a spiritually sound institution if only Prabhupada were recognzed as as Guru. Ritviks are not needed for that though because his vani is in his teachings. But the ritviks like the NM disicples and the GBC eccelesiasticals place too much importance on external visible (to the mundane eye) formalities thinking them the all in all rather than just a tradition as I do.

 

Where you and I differ is I see his qualified disciples accepting their own disciples and starting new branches as an expansion of the parampara and you most likely see them as deviants.

 

Anyway no need to rehash the ritvik thing again between us. Neither is likely to shift positions I know I won't and I feel you think the same way.

[theist]

 

Brahma-bhuta means knowledge and detachment. Strive for bhakti and knowledge and detachment automatically develop as secondary characteristics of bhakti:

vāsudeve bhagavati

 

Yes I accept that also intellectualy. But when I say I am more interested in liberation in Santa rasa than becoming a more active devotee I am just being honest and not trying to present the most intellectualy response available.

 

The drive to end my suffering is a prime motivator behind my hearing and chanting. Once the brahma-bhuta platform is reached as santa rasa then I will have ample oppurtunity to develop further if I so choose. For me to pretend I am striving for bhakti simply would not be true. If it is for you then more power to you.

 

One of the things I wish to detach myself from is self delusion over my own true motives. I find this is a hard thing to accomplish as facing the inner darkness that controls me is a fearful thing.

[Guest guest]

 

This is so bogus. Despite all the places where Srila Prabhupada indicated how after him his disciples would start their own branches and have their own disciples you make such a statement.

 

Lets see one example. A prediction. With the word "will" or "would" added to "start their own branches".

 

Pretty sure no one will come up with such a quote.

 

He certainly asked his disciples to "become" qualified, and then spoke of the glories of what such a qualified person MIGHT do.

 

 

A disciple represents his spiritual master and not directly his instituiton.

.

 

Now I will circulate a "Prabhupada said". A very very popular verbatim statement repeated time and again that Srila Prabhupada said that his institution Iskcon was non different from either "himself" or "his own body".

 

Even without that quote, you cannot mutually exclude the fact that a disciple ALSO represents the master's institution. This is common sense, a sense which fails those defending an untenable position.

 

 

Where you and I differ is I see his qualified disciples accepting their own disciples and starting new branches as an expansion of the parampara and you most likely see them as deviants.

 

Perhaps you meant to say, "I predict that in the future...."

 

Because if as you say you are actually SEEING "qualified" disciples of Srila Prabhupada accepting their own disciples and starting new branches, your definition of qualification must preclude chastity, because Srila Prabhupada said "do not make any factions", and insisted his disciples stick with the Iskcon management arrangement and "not change a thing".

 

Perhaps since there were so few willing to "not change a thing", this is why so many like Theist are feeling empowered to proclaim that we all should just become free agent acharyas.

 

This was and still is the test. Against all odds, Maya has us in great anxiety. Do the Spiritual Master's vision and instructions still hold? Or has the great damage done by Maya's illusions and her illusionists been so potent as to convince EVERYONE that what Srila Prabhupada sought and demanded was "impossible".

 

Just what she would want us to think. Because then we each need to specualtively attempt to interpret and save the day.

 

The way to brahma buta is frought with mind fields of speculative endeavor. Beware all ye who would go further.

 

Jaya Prabhupada

[theist]

 

Lets see one example. A prediction. With the word "will" or "would" added to "start their own branches".

 

Pretty sure no one will come up with such a quote.

 

Regarding your question about the disciplic succession coming down from Arjuna, it is just like I have got my disciples, so in the future these many disciples may have many branches of disciplic succession. So in one line of disciples we may not see another name coming from a different line. But this does not mean that person whose name does not appear was not in the disciplic succession. Narada was the Spiritual Master of Vyasadeva, and Arjuna was Vyasadeva's disciple, not as initiated disciple but there was some blood relation between them. So there is connection in this way, and it is not possible to list all such relationships in the short description given in Bhagavad-gita As It Is. Another point is that disciplic succession does not mean one has to be directly a disciple of a particular person. The conclusions which we have tried to explain in our Bhagavad-gita As It Is is the same as those conclusions of Arjuna. Arjuna accepted Krishna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and we also accept the same truth under the disciplic succession of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Things equal to the same thing are equal to one another. This is an axiomatic truth. So there is no difference of opinion of understanding Krishna between ourselves and Arjuna. Another example is that a tree has many branches, and you will find one leaf here and another leaf there. But if you take this leaf and the other leaf and you press them both, you will see that the taste is the same. The taste is the conclusion, and from the taste you can understand that both leaves are from the same tree. Letter to Kirtananda

 

There's a quote. Now what are you going to do? Ignore it? pretend you never heard it?

 

The Bhagavad gita the SB the CC are simply overflowing with examples of how the Parampara continues and expands by hearing and not by ritvik. Ritvik may be for Iskcon but Iskcon is not the sum total of parampara.

 

The example of Suta Gosvami is right there in the beginning of SB. It is not Pariksit who repeats what he heard from Sukadeva it is Suta Gosvami repeating what he heard Sukadeva tell Pariksit. The Bhagvata Parampara is transmitted by the vani of the realized souls. It is a river of transcendental sound and not physical bodies.

[Guruvani]

 

 

Where you and I differ is I see his qualified disciples accepting their own disciples and starting new branches as an expansion of the parampara and you most likely see them as deviants.

 

Formal initiation is formal initiation is formal initiation, no matter whether it is performed by Srila Prabhupada, Narayana Maharaja or Sridhar Maharaja or a ritvik priest.

 

The idea that formal initiation is some magic moment where some lightening bolt of spiritual shakti comes down from the sky and hits you in the head is for fools and neophytes.

 

So, the ritvik formality is as good as any other formality.

 

There are thousands and millions of examples of formal initiations directly from the guru that didn't amount to diddly squat, so we have plenty of proof that there is no magic in formal diksha - ritvik or traditional.

 

Ritvik initiation is just a formality as is any other formal diksha ceremony.

 

Spiritual diksha is simply receiving the knowledge of Krishna in your heart.

 

Formalities of all types are just formalities and the ritvik formality is as good as any other formality.

 

thats my conclusion, but I am sure others don't agree.

 

I have seen enough idiots with traditional diksha that don't have a clue to convince me that the formal diksha gimmick has lost it's value.

[Guest guest]

 

Regarding your question about the disciplic succession coming down from Arjuna, it is just like I have got my disciples, so in the future these many disciples may have many branches of disciplic succession. So in one line of disciples we may not see another name coming from a different line. But this does not mean that person whose name does not appear was not in the disciplic succession. Narada was the Spiritual Master of Vyasadeva, and Arjuna was Vyasadeva's disciple, not as initiated disciple but there was some blood relation between them. So there is connection in this way, and it is not possible to list all such relationships in the short description given in Bhagavad-gita As It Is. Another point is that disciplic succession does not mean one has to be directly a disciple of a particular person. The conclusions which we have tried to explain in our Bhagavad-gita As It Is is the same as those conclusions of Arjuna. Arjuna accepted Krishna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and we also accept the same truth under the disciplic succession of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Things equal to the same thing are equal to one another. This is an axiomatic truth. So there is no difference of opinion of understanding Krishna between ourselves and Arjuna. Another example is that a tree has many branches, and you will find one leaf here and another leaf there. But if you take this leaf and the other leaf and you press them both, you will see that the taste is the same. The taste is the conclusion, and from the taste you can understand that both leaves are from the same tree. Letter to Kirtananda

 

There's a quote. Now what are you going to do? Ignore it? pretend you never heard it?

 

The Bhagavad gita the SB the CC are simply overflowing with examples of how the Parampara continues and expands by hearing and not by ritvik. Ritvik may be for Iskcon but Iskcon is not the sum total of parampara.

 

The example of Suta Gosvami is right there in the beginning of SB. It is not Pariksit who repeats what he heard from Sukadeva it is Suta Gosvami repeating what he heard Sukadeva tell Pariksit. The Bhagvata Parampara is transmitted by the vani of the realized souls. It is a river of transcendental sound and not physical bodies.

 

Ummm, the word may is not the same as the word "will" or "would".

 

Very different root meanings.

 

This is not a direct inevitable prediction.

 

But that technicality aside, let us assume it as such for discussions sake.

 

In context of the letter as a whole, with the emphasis on alternative disciplic relationships (blood relation, friend, etc) other than "initiated disciple" my point is sustained. It is simply the same as he has always said. If you become qualified in Siksa, you are a branch, and automatically in reality are making and informing disciples as you go.

 

He never said anything about anyone needing to initiate as diksa guru in order to continue the parampara. As a matter of fact, this information lends weight to the opposite.

 

And consider the person this sole letter is written to. The most prominent deviant, who Srila Prabhupada was onto from early on.

 

The branches of a tree "may" also rot. The strong branches are in the greatest integrity with the trunk and thus the roots. Srila Prabhupada is the uttama, a very sturdy branch of Sri Caitanya's disciplic succession. And many disciples may have many branches just via their Siksa and ritvik representation, and those branches will be very strong.

 

And the fact is that each Vaisnava disciple of his who is advanced enough to be considered to have the good qualities of a brahmana, and who meets the criteria to give ritvik formal initiation, (which by the way, can and does have actual spiritual potency in some cases) is in fact succeeding in passing on the transcendental vani of Srila Prabhupada PLUS upholding formal standards, for those who are AIDED in their spiritual process by the recognition of such potentially transcendental rituals.

 

A person can be a neophyte devotee, and be sincere and earnest, and not formally initiated. The process of Diksa has already been engaged.

 

For some, the formal initiation may be the time that they further solidify their commitment to the future of training under Siksa. They can make spiritual advancement through such a process.

 

And if they do not need it, they may or may not go through it depending on circumstances.

 

In the transcendental sense a person continuing the parampara in this way is creating a branch of positive disciplic succession. And their name may not appear as "initiating guru" in the annals of Vaisnava history, but a few may know him as ritvik, and he is still to be considered "in the disciplic succession".

 

Those serious about providing a link to others for the Diksa potency of a Jagat Guru will undoubtedly instruct as Siksa Guru with utmost chastity to all rules and regs given.

 

Without Srila Prabhupada, who woulda got anywhere. Maybe some neophytes would have returned from India after contacting Vaisnavas. A few sahajiyas to.

 

After Srila Prabhupada (and thus Krsna) had a good look at us, he knew, these boys would most all be neophyte gurus at best, maybe a handful of budding madhyams, so better to create a solid institutional safeguard. To guard the gentle process of unfolding devotion, from the fanatic neophytes who would demand your purity NOW.

 

That is what Iskcon is for. Not to everyones taste for sure. But then again, only one in a million of one in a million are REALLY interested in the highest personal conception anyway.

 

Jaya Prabhupada

[theist]

Whatever

[Guruvani]

 

Whatever

As far as I am concerned the formal diksha given by ISKCON GBC rubber stamp gurus is as good as any ritvik formal diksha, unless and untill the "guru" falls down

so, then there is disturbance to the faith and the mind of the disciples.

 

so, the GBC guru system has an unacceptable failure rate which makes the ritvik formality more suitable for the institution.

[theist]

"I thank you so much for having nicely appreciated the Bhagavad-gita As It Is. This book should be read by all of my students at least one chapter per day, and in kirtana class it should be discussed sloka after sloka. Practically, we have tried to explain in this book all of the basic principles of Krishna Consciousness. If you can simply cram Bhagavad-gita then you will surely become a very good preacher.

Next January there will be an examination on this Bhagavad-gita. Papers will be sent by me to all centers, and those securing the minimum passing grade will be given the title as Bhakti-sastri. Similarly, another examination will be held on Lord Caitanya's Appearance Day in February, 1970 and it will be upon Srimad-Bhagavatam and Bhagavad-gita. Those passing will get the title of Bhakti-vaibhava. Another examination will be held sometimes in 1971 on the four books, Bhagavad-gita, Srimad-Bhagavatam, Teachings of Lord Caitanya, and Nectar of Devotion. One who will pass this examination will be awarded with the title of Bhaktivedanta. I want that all of my spiritual sons and daughters will inherit this title of Bhaktivedanta, so that the family transcendental diploma will continue through the generations. Those possessing the title of Bhaktivedanta will be allowed to initiate disciples. Maybe by 1975, all of my disciples will be allowed to initiate and increase the numbers of the generations. That is my program. So we should not simply publish these books for reading by outsiders, but our students must be well versed in all of our books so that we can be prepared to defeat all opposing parties in the matter of self-realization." Letter to Hamsadutta 1969

[Guest guest]

Ok then lets fire it up. Anybody out there competent to teach the core teachings, and qualify some Bhaktivedantas?

 

Our dear Srila Prabhupada had very high expectations, and rarely were they met. He offered the highest.

 

And his final conclusion, at the behest of the Lord who was watching, and strategising the whole time, the one who gave Srila Prabhupada each ideal vision, each carrot to dangle and each gentle nudge and prod...

 

Be ritvik and save souls on my behalf.

 

There really is no difference. Yet simultaneously, there is.

 

When they are ready for serious spiritual life, Sri Paramatma will guide them to some Acharya like Srila Prabhupada, or someone with a strong connection to him, and then the process of formal initiation might hold some real value to them.

 

Jaya Prabhupada