GBC Never Authorized to Terminate Ritvik System

[Guruvani]

the only magic I have seen is that reading the books of Srila Prabhupada has completly changed the lives of many thousands of people on the inside.

 

formal diksha is part of the Pancharatra process.

reading the books is Bhagavat marg

 

of the two, the reading of the books is what brought most devotees to the point of wanting formal initiation.

 

I don't think that some goof that got formal diksha is better than a sincere devotee who didn't get formal diksha.

 

I don't buy into such bigotry and prejudice.

 

When formal diksha becomes the ritual of bigots, the ritual has lost all value.

[Guest guest]

 

the only magic I have seen is that reading the books of Srila Prabhupada has completly changed the lives of many thousands of people on the inside.

 

formal diksha is part of the Pancharatra process.

reading the books is Bhagavat marg

 

of the two, the reading of the books is what brought most devotees to the point of wanting formal initiation.

 

I don't think that some goof that got formal diksha is better than a sincere devotee who didn't get formal diksha.

 

I don't buy into such bigotry and prejudice.

 

When formal diksha becomes the ritual of bigots, the ritual has lost all value.

[Guest guest]

 

the only magic I have seen is that reading the books of Srila Prabhupada has completly changed the lives of many thousands of people on the inside.

 

formal diksha is part of the Pancharatra process.

reading the books is Bhagavat marg

 

of the two, the reading of the books is what brought most devotees to the point of wanting formal initiation.

 

I don't think that some goof that got formal diksha is better than a sincere devotee who didn't get formal diksha.

 

I don't buy into such bigotry and prejudice.

 

When formal diksha becomes the ritual of bigots, the ritual has lost all value.

No disagreement in principle, just try not to be like a bull in a china shop. If we don't tread lightly on this soil how will we ever be permitted to walk on the soil of Vaikuntha where every particle of soil is of a higher existence than ourselves?

[Guest guest]

 

No disagreement in principle, just try not to be like a bull in a china shop. If we don't tread lightly on this soil how will we ever be permitted to walk on the soil of Vaikuntha where every particle of soil is of a higher existence than ourselves?

 

I disagree. We are conscious but the soil in Vaikuntha is not. So what is superior?

[Guest guest]

"Narada was the Spiritual Master of Vyasadeva"

 

Is this right?

 

Vyasadeva is not a baddha-jiva. But a high avatar (Visnu-tattva stuff). How the heck did that person become his guru? Never ever made sense to me. First of all, in the Bhagawatam Wyasa gets confused and then the savior Narada saves him and tells him to compose all this to solve his problem.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

I disagree. We are conscious but the soil in Vaikuntha is not. So what is superior?

 

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 5.53

vaikuṇṭhera pṛthivy-ādi sakala cinmaya

māyika bhūtera tathi janma nāhi haya

SYNONYMS

vaikuṇṭhera — of the spiritual world; pṛthivī-ādi — earth, water, etc.; sakala — all; cit-maya — spiritual; māyika — material; bhūtera — of elements; tathi — there; janma — generation; nāhi haya — there is not.

TRANSLATION

The earth, water, fire, air and ether of Vaikuṇṭha are all spiritual. Material elements are not found there.

 

 

 

Srila Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Maharaja

 

We are to learn the theory and science of gratitude. "I am grateful to you and to everyone in the environment," the very domain is of that character. Everyone thinks himself to be a thief, "I am a trespasser. Only by the grace of the environment can I have a position here. They are all well-wishers except for myself," this should be the temperament. He will be busy and sometimes forgetful of himself in the intensity of his service.

 

 

vaikunthera prthivy adi sakala cinmaya

.

 

(C.c. Adi 5.53)

We are to think, "The environment of that land in which I aspire to live is made of better stuff than I am." We are to enter into a super-subjective domain. The attitude of all the newly recruited persons there should be: "I am not of subjective character, I am of marginal potency, tatastha, but I am receiving permission to enter the super-subjective area where everything holds a higher position than myself." Everyone there is of that consciousness. "The air, the earth, the trees, etc. all hold a higher position than myself, but still I have been given permission by the supreme authority to wander here. I have only been given some service, and I am eager to render that service to this land." With this attitude in the background, one should live there, and in the foreground one will become accustomed to discharging his particular duty. "I have come and I am treading on a soil whose intrinsic value is really superior." A child reveres his mother but he may be taken on her lap, such is the example of our situation when we enter Vaikuntha and Goloka. "The whole atmosphere is higher than myself and is to be revered, but still they have embraced me and taken me in their lap - svarupa-sakti - and I have been asked to do some duty there. The whole environment is to be revered, and I am allowed to live there only as a matter of grace, not as a matter of right." We are tatastha , and as a matter of right we may be cast in Brahmaloka, the marginal potency, so we must become conscious of this fact. Before enlisting our name in the Krishna consciousness school we -must have this primary knowledge. "We are having the chance to enter where? In a revered land, God's throne. Only for a particular service am I entering the temple which holds a superior position. Wholly for service am I entering, and by their gracious nature they are drawing me there. I am being taken on my mother's lap. I take her feet dust upon my head, but she is taking me, including my feet, upon her lap."

[Guest guest]

 

"Narada was the Spiritual Master of Vyasadeva"

 

Is this right?

 

Vyasadeva is not a baddha-jiva. But a high avatar (Visnu-tattva stuff). How the heck did that person become his guru? Never ever made sense to me. First of all, in the Bhagawatam Wyasa gets confused and then the savior Narada saves him and tells him to compose all this to solve his problem.

Yes, it's right. What's your evidence that Vyasa is Vishnu-tattva? (Probably the same place you heard the dust of Vaikuntha is dead--nothing there is dead, it's all sacchidananda!) Have you actually read Srimad-Bhagavatam under the guidance of a competent spiritual master?

[Guest guest]

 

Have you actually read Srimad-Bhagavatam under the guidance of a competent spiritual master?

 

That is what happens when sudras read shastras (books) - they twist things, extrapolate bogus conclusions, and come up with a path (cult) whis is nothing but a disturbance in society.

 

Blah, blah, blah...all you need is to read books... blah, blah, blah... I have an initiation from a departed guru...blah, blah, blah...he is the guide in my heart...blah, blah, blah... that is all you need!

 

they are a sad joke...

[Guruvani]

 

That is what happens when sudras read shastras (books) - they twist things, extrapolate bogus conclusions, and come up with a path (cult) whis is nothing but a disturbance in society.

 

Blah, blah, blah...all you need is to read books... blah, blah, blah... I have an initiation from a departed guru...blah, blah, blah...he is the guide in my heart...blah, blah, blah... that is all you need!

 

they are a sad joke...

 

and when a sudra gets formal diksha from the "living guru" he is still a studra if he doesn't realize that guru is not a bag of stool and urine and that "Vaishnavas DIE TO LIVE and living spread the Holy Name around".

[Guruvani]

Srila Prabhupada:

 

Those possessing the title of Bhaktivedanta will be allowed to initiate disciples.

 

Srila Prabhupada never awarded any disciple that title, so it appears that he opted for the ritvik system intead.

 

Srila Prabhupada clearly stated that the disciples with the title "Bhaktivedanta" would be allowed to initiate disciples.

 

Since he never awarded any disciple that title, it appears that he didn't wish to continue the parampara through the traditional system.

 

The stipulation was that the successor would have the title "Bhaktivedanta" awarded by the acharya.

 

No disciple was awarded that title.

[suchandra]

 

 

No disciple was awarded that title.

 

Somehow, sad but true - this statement causes many to have a fit of raving madness...

[Guest guest]

 

and when a sudra gets formal diksha from the "living guru" he is still a studra if he doesn't realize that guru is not a bag of stool and urine and that "Vaishnavas DIE TO LIVE and living spread the Holy Name around".

 

A true living guru will tell you that he merely represents Sri Guru - Krsna, the Universal Teacher. There are unnumerable representations of Sri Guru - coming to us through time like an endless procession of waves in the ocean.

[Guest guest]

 

Srila Prabhupada:

 

 

Srila Prabhupada never awarded any disciple that title, so it appears that he opted for the ritvik system intead.

 

Srila Prabhupada clearly stated that the disciples with the title "Bhaktivedanta" would be allowed to initiate disciples.

 

Since he never awarded any disciple that title, it appears that he didn't wish to continue the parampara through the traditional system.

 

The stipulation was that the successor would have the title "Bhaktivedanta" awarded by the acharya.

 

No disciple was awarded that title.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but nowhere does it say here that the examinations are to be performed by the acharya (Prabhupada). Same with awarding the titles. Still, Srila Prabhupada did not followed through with that unique program.

[Guruvani]

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but nowhere does it say here that the examinations are to be performed by the acharya (Prabhupada). Same with awarding the titles. Still, Srila Prabhupada did not followed through with that unique program.

 

Srila Prabhupada:

 

Papers will be sent by me to all centers, and those securing the minimum passing grade will be given the title

 

Srila Prabhupada made the stipulation that the papers would be sent by him.

He never sent the papers and never authorized anyone else to accept authority for sending the papers or awarding the title.

 

Srila Prabhupada said:

 

 

This is MY program

 

That was a program that only Srila Prabhupada had authority to implement.

[Guest guest]

 

That was a program that only Srila Prabhupada had authority to implement.

 

And he never even started to implement that program, let alone finish it. Another discarted idea?

[Guruvani]

 

And he never even started to implement that program, let alone finish it. Another discarted idea?

 

Sometimes the farmer will dangle a carrot in front of the donkey to get him to more forward and pull the cart.

Or, in Greyhound races there is an artificial rabbit on a track that leads the Greyhouds around the track.

 

Actually, the donkey never gets the carrot until his job is done.

The Greyhounds never catch the rabbit and eat him.

 

It's not a matter of discarded ideas.

 

It's a matter of motivations and inspirations that help to lead us in a particular direction.

 

Times change and minds change.

 

The falling down and falling away of some prominent senior disciples of course caused Srila Prabhupada to rethink his plans.

 

Srila Prabhupada had high hopes for these western devotees.

 

Maybe he was disappointed a few too many times and had to reconsider previous programs and lower his expectations?

 

Who says that an acharya can't change his plans as circumstances around him change?

[theist]

The point being that clearly Srila Prabhupada was not thinking of a 10,000 year ritvik system. He clearly was expecting his disciples to have their own disciples and form their own branches.

 

The fact that his disciples did not advance as he had hoped does not change this one bit. So it remains that when such a disciple becomes qualified in the eyes of the Lord and Srila Prabhupada they will instruct such a disciple to accept his own disciples and start his own branch, be it big or be it small it doesn't matter.

 

Ritvik forever means no one progressing past the stage of Madhyam-adhikari and we know that is not the desire of the Lord or His devotee.

[Guruvani]

 

 

Ritvik forever means no one progressing past the stage of Madhyam-adhikari and we know that is not the desire of the Lord or His devotee.

No, not at all.

To be a rtivik means that one has to be on at least the madhyama platform.

 

It's not a matter of saying that nobody is advanced or will never make advancement.

 

ISKCON is an "acharya sampradaya" a community of devotees dedicated to the specific teachings of a specific acharya.

 

Each acharya has a right to do things a little differently as he sees fit.

 

In order to insure that ISKCON didn't get tampered with by any future "acharyas" in ISKCON, it was necessary to establish that there is only ONE acharya for ISKCON specific considerations.

 

An acharya can do things as he sees fit, even if it is somewhat different than the way other acharyas do things.

 

In order to insure that ISKCON was not tampered with by so-called acharyas in the future, it is necessary to maintain Srila Prabhupada as the only acharya with a large body of siksha gurus who follow the exclusive acharya of the institution.

 

It absolutely says nothing about the level of advancement of the ritvik priests.

 

It is just prejudice and narrow thinking to say that a ritvik system is based on the premise that no disciple can ever become an advanced devotee.

 

Nobody blasphemes the Madhvas for their ritvik-like sampradaya, but when it comes to ISKCON it is held up to a different scrutiny.

[Guruvani]

 

 

Ritvik forever means no one progressing past the stage of Madhyam-adhikari and we know that is not the desire of the Lord or His devotee.

 

Since when did being an empowered representative of the shaktyavesha-avatar become the work of neophytes?

 

Excuse me, but being a ritvik of the acharya is an empowered position that only highly advanced devotees can peform.

 

Being empowered by the acharya to initiate on his behalf is not any form of diminishing the position of the disciple, rather a contract to fully back-up his efforts to preach and bring in new devotees to the sampradaya.

 

This propaganda that ritviks are somehow lesser or lower than "living diksha gurus" is a trick of maya to continue to allow her to foil the mission of Mahaprabhu by sending one false acharya after another.

[Beggar]

 

This propaganda that ritviks are somehow lesser or lower than "living diksha gurus" is a trick of maya to continue to allow her to foil the mission of Mahaprabhu by sending one false acharya after another.

In a way that's true. Prabhupada certainly made it so no one else will be accepted as "Acarya" by everyone in ISKCON. But just because different gurus or acaryas come inside and outside of ISKCON doesn't make everyone false. If they are engaging their followers in Krsna's devotional service then they are not false, they just aren't the acarya that everyone can follow like Prabhupada.

[Guest guest]

 

In a way that's true. Prabhupada certainly made it so no one else will be accepted as "Acarya" by everyone in ISKCON.

Yet the confusion over this issue has stalled the real sankirtan movement within ISKCON and therefore a large amount of aspirants now look outside of ISKCON for spiritual guidance.

[Guest guest]

 

Each acharya has a right to do things a little differently as he sees fit.

 

 

Some would argue that point on very serious shastric grounds, and even on the basis of Prabhupada's own statements. How far can a sampradaya guru go in implementing changes to tradition without turning his line into an apa-sampradaya?

 

Others would argue that if Prabhupada indeed wanted to scrap the traditional parampara system for a ritvik system that would constitute no small change, but a truly major one.

[Guruvani]

Actually, Srila Prabhupada dubbed these 11 representatives as "officiating acharyas". Then Tamal interjected the term ritvik and Srila Prabhupada confirmed that the term ritvik could also be applied.

 

But, "officiating acharyas" denotes acharyas who are acting in an official capacity.

 

They have since been reduced down to simple ritviks by the anti-ritvik sector.

 

The empowering of the sampradaya acharya to initiate disciples on his behalf is beyond the range of a simple ritvik priest.

 

If you take a priest and then empower him with special authority invested in him by the acharya to conduct initiation rites on behalf of the acharya, then you have an ISKCON ritvik.

 

That is much more than a simple ritvik priest.

 

The acharya can empower a brahmana with as much power as the acharya wills.

 

Srila Prabhupada empowered some senior disciples to be these "officiating acharyas" as ritviks with specific authority to perform initiation rites on behalf of the acharya.

 

That is obviously a very great responsibility and not really anything less that being a "self-effulgent" acharya.

 

Foolish people like to label the ritvik function as a put-down or a diminishing of the disciple to a lower status, but that is just a false argument used by self-interested individuals with too much personal ambition.

[Beggar]

 

 

The acharya can empower a brahmana with as much power as the acharya wills.

 

 

 

A highly realized devotee can empower a disciple, either diksa or siksa, with as much power as the highly realized devotee wills.

[Guruvani]

 

Some would argue that point on very serious shastric grounds, and even on the basis of Prabhupada's own statements. How far can a sampradaya guru go in implementing changes to tradition without turning his line into an apa-sampradaya?

 

Others would argue that if Prabhupada indeed wanted to scrap the traditional parampara system for a ritvik system that would constitute no small change, but a truly major one.

 

Srila Rupa Goswami mentioned in the Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu that the details of how one acharya teaches and how another acharya teaches might be different.

 

 

Srila Rupa Gosvami states that his elder brother (Sanatana Gosvami) has

compiled Hari-bhakti-vilasa for the guidance of the Vaisnavas and therein has

mentioned many rules and regulations to be followed by the Vaisnavas. Some of

them are very important and prominent, and Srila Rupa Gosvami will now mention

these very important items for our benefit. The purport of this statement is

that Srila Rupa Gosvami proposes to mention only basic principles, not details.

For example, a basic principle is that one has to accept a spiritual master.

Exactly how one follows the instructions of his spiritual master is considered a

detail. For example, if one is following the instruction of his spiritual master

and that instruction is different from the instructions of another spiritual

master, this is called detailed information. But the basic principle of

acceptance of a spiritual master is good everywhere, although the details may be

different. Srila Rupa Gosvami does not wish to enter into details here, but

wants to place before us only the principles.

 

so, it is accepted that there is not one generic standard.

It varies from acharya to acharya.