GBC Never Authorized to Terminate Ritvik System

[Guruvani]

 

if Prabhupada indeed wanted to scrap the traditional parampara system for a ritvik system that would constitute no small change, but a truly major one.

 

Maybe so, but then again trying to take Gaudiya Vaishnavism global to all the mleccha and yavana people of the world was also no small effort beyond the 500 years of Gaudiya Vaishnavism being a small sect in India.

 

"major change"

 

Sure, maybe there needs to be a "major change" when you take the Gaudiya mission out of India to the far away lands of western cultures?

 

I think the idea that the Gaudiya mission has to remain untouched and unchanged even when taken global is a pipe-dream for fools.

[Guest guest]

 

Srila Rupa Goswami mentioned in the Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu that the details of how one acharya teaches and how another acharya teaches might be different.

 

so, it is accepted that there is not one generic standard.

It varies from acharya to acharya.

 

That freedom relates only to the way teachings are presented by a particular acharya, not the way the entire sampradaya is supposed to operate from that point on, or to the particular theology the sampradaya presents.

[suchandra]

 

Maybe so, but then again trying to take Gaudiya Vaishnavism global to all the mleccha and yavana people of the world was also no small effort beyond the 500 years of Gaudiya Vaishnavism being a small sect in India.

 

"major change"

 

Sure, maybe there needs to be a "major change" when you take the Gaudiya mission out of India to the far away lands of western cultures?

 

I think the idea that the Gaudiya mission has to remain untouched and unchanged even when taken global is a pipe-dream for fools.

"I think"...This is rather the business of fools to value the spreading of the Holy Names with their material minds - the Sankirtan movement spreads unchecked of any material consideration and reaches the hearts of conditioned souls without your tricks. Someone has to adjust the transcendental sound of Hare Krishna so that people minds can accept? This is pretty much the consideration of a material brain and not a Vaishnava who's speaking.

 

When the five members of the Panca-tattva saw the entire world drowned in love of Godhead and the seed of material enjoyment in the living entities completely destroyed, they all became exceedingly happy.

 

PURPORT

 

In this connection, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura writes in his Anubhasya that since the living entities all belong to the marginal potency of the Lord, each and every living entity has a natural tendency to become Krsna conscious, although at the same time the seed of material enjoyment is undoubtedly within him. The seed of material enjoyment, watered by the course of material nature, fructifies to become a tree of material entanglement that endows the living entity with all kinds of material enjoyment. To enjoy such material facilities is to be afflicted with the three material miseries. However, when by nature’s law there is a flood, the seeds within the earth become inactive. Similarly, as the inundation of love of Godhead spreads all over the world, the seeds of material enjoyment become impotent. Thus the more the Krsna consciousness movement spreads, the more the desire for material enjoyment decreases. The seed of material enjoyment automatically becomes impotent with the increase of the Krsna consciousness movement.

 

Instead of being envious that Krsna consciousness is spreading all over the world by the grace of Lord Caitanya, those who are jealous should be happy, as indicated here by the words parama ullasa. But because they are kanistha-adhikaris or prakrta-bhaktas (materialistic devotees who are not advanced in spiritual knowledge), they are envious instead of happy, and they try to find faults in the Krsna consciousness movement. Yet Srimat Prabodhananda Sarasvati writes in his Caitanya-candramrta that when influenced by Lord Caitanya’s Krsna consciousness movement, materialists become averse to talking about their wives and children, supposedly learned scholars give up their tedious studies of Vedic literature, yogis give up their impractical practices of mystic yoga, ascetics give up their austere activities of penance and austerity, and sannyasis give up their study of Sankhya philosophy. Thus they are all attracted by the bhakti-yoga practices of Lord Caitanya and cannot relish a mellow taste superior to that of Krsna consciousness.

 

Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Adi Lila Chapter 7 Lord Caitanya in Five Features

[Guruvani]

 

A highly realized devotee can empower a disciple, either diksa or siksa, with as much power as the highly realized devotee wills.

 

As well, I think the parivar of Srila Sridhar Maharaja has suffered a great blow because idiots and fools around the Matha thought that if Govinda Maharaja was a ritvik and not an acharya that it would be an insult.

 

Being a ritvik to Sridhar Maharaja was never an insult or a diminshing of the authority and qualifications of Govinda Maharaja.

 

People with big egos and little minds stripped Govinda Maharaja of his ritvik status and reduced him down to a simple guru.

 

Sridhar Maharaja was not insulting or diminishing Govinda Maharaja by appointing him ritvik. It was the greatest honor and distinction that he could bestow on Govinda Maharaja, but some idiots loitering around the Matha couldn't understand that and thought that stripping Govinda Maharaja of his ritvik position was somehow more flattering than letting him be ritvik of Sridhar Maharaja.

 

When you are considering certain Mathas and institutions that were established by certain acharyas under particular acharyas with specific ontological nuances that distinguish the acharya from the masses, then there can never really be anything EXCEPT ritviks in the succession of the Matha.

 

That is what has preserved the Madhva sampradaya as a pristine sampradaya of Madhvacharya.

 

If the successors are "self-effulgent" acharyas, then the Matha gets hijacked by the successor and the founder-acharya gets moved to a secondary position.

 

That is why as far as ISKCON and SCSM goes there can only really ever be ONE acharya and ritvik successors.

[Guest guest]

 

I think the idea that the Gaudiya mission has to remain untouched and unchanged even when taken global is a pipe-dream for fools.

 

That was Kirtanananda's favourite excuse for his deviations

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

even though the men in saffron often deride them as low-class sense enjoyers.

Well, I finished up my first reading of Sri Prapanna Jivanamritam over the weekend, and found these two verses particularly striking in this regard (though it's certainly a recurring theme in the book):

 

 

http://mandala.com.au/prapanna/ch-9.html

 

 

9.42

prabala bhaktir ajitendriyan api visaya-bhogad-uddharati -

badhyamano 'pi mad-bhakto, visayair ajitendriyah

prayah pragalbhaya bhaktya, visayair nabhibhuyate

<table width="95%"> <!-- Table 106 Row 01 --> <tbody><tr> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> tatraiva 11.14.18 </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

Intense devotion delivers even persons of uncontrolled senses from worldly enjoyment -

"A person adopting the path of devotion may suffer the obstacle of his mind loitering somewhat in thoughts of mundanity, due to former habits of sensual dalliance. As he cultivates devotion, his service aptitude develops. And the more his boldness to serve increases, the more that materialistic devotee is gradually able to curb his attraction for the mundane. The only cause of failure for such aspirants is their lack of sincerity."

9.43-46

labdha-suddha-bhakti-bijasya nirvinnasyanubhuta-duhkhatmaka-

kama-svarupasyapi tat tyagasamarthya-garhana-silasya tatra niskapata-nistha-purvaka-yajita-bhakty-angasya bhaktasya sanair

bhagavan hrdayoditah san nikhilavidya tat karyani ca vidhvamsayanniravacchinna-nija-cinmaya-vilasa-dhamaivaviskaroti -

jata-sraddho mat-kathasu, nirvinnah sarva-karmasu

veda duhkhatmakan kaman, parityage 'py anisvarah

tato bhajeta mam pritah, sraddhalur drdha-niscayah

jusamanas ca tan kaman, duhkhodarkams ca garhayan

proktena bhakti-yogena, bhajato ma 'sakrn muneh

kama hrdaya nasyanti, sarve mayi hrdi sthite

bhidyate hrdaya-granthis, chidyante sarva-samsayah

ksiyante casya karmani, mayi drste 'khilatmani

<table width="95%"> <!-- Table 107 Row 01 --> <tbody><tr> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> tatraiva 11.20.27-30 </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

For one who receives the seed of devotion, who is selfless and penitent, denouncing his inability to abandon mundane enjoyment despite realizing it to be the embodiment of suffering, and who sincerely gives himself incessantly to all the practices of devotion - in the heart of such a devotee, the Supreme Lord ascends like the rising sun to annihilate all ignorance with its reactions, revealing His divine personality in all its pristine glory -

"He who has imbibed heart's faith in the tidings of My name, nature, and pastimes; who has become indifferent to all kinds of fruitive work and its rewards; who has learnt that all forms of enjoyment of sensual passions ultimately transform into misery, yet he is unable to fully abandon such passions - such a faithful devotee, being determined that his shortcomings will be dispelled by the potency of devotion, gradually comes to abhor those evil passions that enslave him, knowing the havoc they wreak - and he serves Me with love: when his objective is pure and sincere, I give him My mercy.

"In this way, the introspective devotee unceasingly absorbs himself in all the practices of devotional service as enunciated by Me. And I, who am situated in the heart of My devotee, strike at the root of all the material urges that infect his heart, reducing them to oblivion.

"By bringing Me - the Soul of all souls - into his heart, no evil can remain there. Swiftly is the hard knot of mundane ego severed, all doubts are slashed, and all mundane action is exhausted for that earnestly aspiring devotee."

 

 

 

 

The real ascetics are working two jobs, raising their kids, distributing books to their friends and neighbors and co-workers and around the community, and donating to keep the local temple solvent.

 

They are giving up their personal sense gratification, devoting their lives to the service of others. They neither seek nor receive prestige.

 

They don't have big travel budgets, or admirers who give them Rolexes and fancy silks, or exotic specially-prepared health-food diets. You probably don't even know their names. But THEY are the pure devotees, quietly holding Krishna Consciousness in the West together, even though the men in saffron often deride them as low-class sense enjoyers.

 

If you tried to approach one of them for diksa, they would probably say "no" -- not feeling themselves qualified, and not likely to win ecclesiastical approval from an organization that rewards a certain "in" club of old cronies. But they are gurus, and all who take their siksa are fortunate indeed.

[Guruvani]

 

"I think"...This is rather the business of fools to value the spreading of the Holy Names with their material minds -

 

Stop thinking?

That was never the wish of Srila Prabhupada.

 

don't criticize people for thinking and using their intelligence to find practical solutions to problems.

 

If you aren't thinking then you aren't posting on the forum.

 

So, don't be a bigot and criticize people for not being robots and zombies that don't have mind to think for themselves.

 

Don't drive your car or watch your TV or go to work if you are against thinking.

 

It's obvious that Srila Prabhupada didn't follow the stereotype.

 

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand that bending the rules and making adjustments was necessary and Srila Prabhupada did what he had to do to get Krishna consciousness to the masses.

 

If he would have kept with "tradition" you wouldn't be here today criticizing people for having a thought process function in their minds.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

other failures include the loss of properties, the loss of public trust, total failure of the primary educational system (gurukulas)...

 

I see people knocking the ISKCON gurukulas quite a bit. I cannot accept that the Gurukula education I received in ISKCON L.A., Bhaktivendanta Village and San Francisco was a "total failure" (though others on the forum may beg to differ).

 

Personally, the education prepared me to the point where, entering public school in 7th grade, I was reading at an 11th grade level. Due to the "tutorial" nature of the education, I was a bit behind on math (mid 5th grade level), but quickly was able to catch up. After a couple of weeks in the normal classes, I was placed into the "gifted" class.

 

My friend Bhakta Rupa (eldest son of Karandhar Prabhu) received a Gurukula education which was sufficiently competent to allow him to gain entry to the prestigious Harvard-Westlake Preparatory High School in L.A. (funded by Ramesvar Maharaj).

 

No doubt there are many more success stories (and certainly, some failures as well).

 

As for abuse, I feel I was very well-treated during my Gurukula years. Certainly, there was abuse in some places, but I never personally saw any behavior I'd characterize as abuse.

[Guruvani]

 

That was Kirtanananda's favourite excuse for his deviations

Thats got nothing to do with ritvik.

Kirtanananda was a rabid anti-ritvik.

 

Srila Prabhupada and Sridhar Maharaja both used ritvik terminology and appointed ritviks.

 

Srila Prabhupada appointed ritviks.

Kirtanananda concoted all sorts of deviations.

 

The ritvik concept was given by two great acharyas of the modern age.

 

Don't try to confuse issues with smokescreen.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

So wonderful, Mahaksa Prabhu!!

 

I feel very fallen and unqualified, and yet find myself blessed in this life beyond my wildest expectations!!

 

For example. Over the Memorial Day weekend, I went down to L.A. to help my Dad move out of his current apartment. Keep in mind that my father is very attached to his appartment and is not at all keen on giving it up.

 

Memorial Day weekend also happens to be when New Dwaraka holds its annual Prabhupada Festival.

 

By Guru's grace, I was able to rise and get to the temple by 7 or so on Saturday and Sunday morning. I certainly needed some spiritual nourishment as my father has been a fountain of negativity of late.

 

On Sunday, after Hari Sauri Prabhu's class, I was speaking with a friend. He asked after my father, and I explained the situation. Before I even thought to mention such a possibility, my friend insisted that he would like to sublet the apartment from my Dad.

 

See!!!?!?! I went to Krishna for some spiritual nourishment, and He solves a big material problem for me (how can I see it any other way???).

 

How does the saying go: solve your million dollar problem and all your $64 dollar problems go away (or something like that).

 

 

Shastra enjoins that one not build temples or amass disciples. Some acaryas build temples and amass disciples, some may amass disciples and not build temples, some may have one disciple in an isolated area, some may be avadhuta and live alone.

 

Acaryas, devotees, gurus, madhyama and uttama adhikaris are actually beyone the cackling of crows called kanisthas. Foolish folks criticize those who have Krsna and have given Krsna to others, and it does one no service to cloak oneself in false loyalty to a particular acarya, other than keeping us in darkness.

 

All the vanivadas proclaim following of the teachings of Srila Prabhupada. Yet they dont read his books in favor of trying to find their eccliastic leanings from business memos, legal documents and personal letters to others.

 

My question is that if one proclaims to follow the vani of Srila Prabhupada, how come your life is not sublime? Why is there a craving for something more than he has given?

 

His VANI is plain and simple, "Chant Hare Krsna and your life will be Sublime." Yet, misery abounds, and anxiety is constantly expressed by those who are outside the structure of the foundation that bears His name, others are full of misery in losing hold of the same foundational structure. What about chanting and finding ones life sublime?

 

Im not an acarya, officiating or independent, I have only a few disciples who may have taken shelter of my words over the years, the ones that come from the Acarya, that which I have passed on unfiltered thru my flawed interpretations. I build no temples. But I took up Srila Prabhupadas VANI and chanted, first in 1967, more seriously in 1969, and formally promised His that "Yes, I will chant Hare Krsna, and you have given me such a sublime life." Not in a temple, not encumbered by the opinions of others, yet my life is sublime, and I dont seem to ever forget this. (I have tried, believe me, but he commits himself to me to a much greater degree than I could ever commit to him.) Death surrounds me, but my life is sublime. Disease eats me, but my life is sublime. I have disappointed concerns for some of my peers who I hear about thru the gossip of me and my peers, but my life is sublime. Im retired, but now I work hard 60 hours a week. All the money I make goes down the drain of political slavery. But my life is sublime, because I took up the process offered by the great gift giver, Srila Prabhupada. I never had a use for his buildings or the funding or the following, it was just a one-on-one proposition. I chanted, my life is sublime, he has given me eternal life even in this dying carcass I have temporarily holding me.

 

So, excuse me for not understanding why others lives are not very sublime, how they crave for something more than he gives. Why didnt it work?

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Beggar]

 

I can understand the feelings of the starter of this topic.

From outside ISKCON looking in, nowadays it is a very sad picture.

There are the gurukula abuse scandals, the fallen guru scandals, the bureaucracy out of control situation, money problems, internal corruption, ritvik issues etc. etc.

 

I can fully understand why an ISKCON outsider who is in touch with internet media can have a very bleak picture of ISKCON nowadays.

 

I am just about convinced that it is time to throw in the towel on ISKCON and just accept that it's time is past, it's purpose has been served and we need to move on to a more broad grassroots form of the Krishna consciousness movement that has shed the dross of the institutional framework.

 

I think the monopoly of the ISKCON card-carrying GBC approved gurus needs to be defeated and all the disciples of Srila Prabhupada outside the ISKCON structure need to take on the responsibility of teaching, preaching and initiating people into Krishna consciousness.

 

It's time to reject, neglect and abandon the GBC authority as they no longer represent the will or the directions of Srila Prabhupada.

 

In the Daiva Varnashrama system, brahmanas are independent of any such thing as a GBC bureaucracy relevant to a particular Matha or institution.

Brahmanas do not need to answer to any such corperate body.

 

It's time that all the brahmanas that Srila Prabhupada initiated abandon the corrupt bureacracy, that is masquerading as Srila Prabhupada's representatives, and accept the actual authority and power that a brahmana is supposed to have.

 

Brahmanas owe no allegiance to any corrupt corperate agency.

 

We shouldn't cling to the GBC like a mother monkey clings to the body of her dead baby.

We need to move on and face the fact that the GBC is bogus now and has no authority to represent Srila Prabhupada.

 

Good-bye to the GBC, good-bye to ritvik!

It's time to do the needful and abandon the rotten bureaucracy.

Last edited by Guruvani : 11-17-2006 at 11:15 AM.

[stonehearted]

 

I see people knocking the ISKCON gurukulas quite a bit. I cannot accept that the Gurukula education I received in ISKCON L.A., Bhaktivendanta Village and San Francisco was a "total failure" (though others on the forum may beg to differ).

 

Personally, the education prepared me to the point where, entering public school in 7th grade, I was reading at an 11th grade level. Due to the "tutorial" nature of the education, I was a bit behind on math (mid 5th grade level), but quickly was able to catch up. After a couple of weeks in the normal classes, I was placed into the "gifted" class.

 

My friend Bhakta Rupa (eldest son of Karandhar Prabhu) received a Gurukula education which was sufficiently competent to allow him to gain entry to the prestigious Harvard-Westlake Preparatory High School in L.A. (funded by Ramesvar Maharaj).

 

No doubt there are many more success stories (and certainly, some failures as well).

 

As for abuse, I feel I was very well-treated during my Gurukula years. Certainly, there was abuse in some places, but I never personally saw any behavior I'd characterize as abuse.

I agree. Characterizing the gurukulas in ISKCON as a "total failure" is not just overgeneralization; it's evidence of ignorance of the facts.

 

As many here may know, I started and managed a gurukula in Hawaii for 4 or 5 years and taught at Bhaktivedanta Village in California for a few years. Those who attended gurukula in Hawaii have good memories of their experience to the best of my knowledge. And, although we had some problems at BV, we were ahead of the curve with regard to abuse. We acted proactively before anyone else to educate the students about all kinds of abuse. Were we perfect teachers, perfect examples of love for Krishna. Nah--far from it. Sometimes we came across as somewhat fanatical. But I can tell you that the kids at BV had as much room to contact their parents and at least sometimes be normal kids (who we were trying to encourage to make Krishna consciousness central to their lives) as we could possibly give. Some think we were too loose.

 

The gurukula system did pretty much implode, and there was certainly horrendous abuse in some places. I had victims of such abuse in my ashram at BV. Many of these students do still show signs of the damage. But the overwhelming number of gurukula veterans I know of seem pretty well adjusted, mostly favorable to Krishna consciousness, even involved in sadhana and preaching. Some have responsible positions in ISKCON and in other missions.

 

[Murali-mohan--if you'd like to write me privately at babhru {at} gmail {dot} com and remind me who you are, I'd like that. If not, that's cool, too.]

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

The false guru is needed to fulfill the desire of the false disciples. They need him as much as he needs them to fulfill the fantasy. They all get their just rewards in this world but what they don't get is Balarama's direct presence.

 

What a wonderful (and simultaneously sobering) realization!!

 

I've joked for a while now that, "We all get the gurus we deserve!"

[Beggar]

 

Good-bye to the GBC, good-bye to ritvik!

It's time to do the needful and abandon the rotten bureaucracy.

Last edited by Guruvani : 11-17-2006 at 11:15 AM.

 

And Goodnight Mrs. Callabash, wherever you are!

[Guest guest]

 

I see people knocking the ISKCON gurukulas quite a bit. I cannot accept that the Gurukula education I received in ISKCON L.A., Bhaktivendanta Village and San Francisco was a "total failure" (though others on the forum may beg to differ).

 

I understand your sentiment and I never said ALL gurukulas failed. The SYSTEM failed. You just cant separate the good from the bad in this case. As a system, gurukulas were a failure not simply because of the widespread abuse due to extremely poor oversight, immaturity of the staff, etc. - but also nad primarily because the system mostly produced kids unprepared for normal functioning in the society - which is a basic purpose of any primary educational system. Yes, there are exceptions, but they are only exceptions.

 

The proof of the failure is in the average "product" of this system and in the fact that this system is now pretty much extinct.

 

If you polled ex-gurukulis most would not send their kids to the school they went to. That is the sustainability test. That is another symptom of a failure.

 

If you consider Iskcon gurukulas a success, I really dont know what is failure.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

When you read the Will and Testament of Srila Sridhar Maharaj, the meaning seems abundantly clear to you.

 

When I read the same words, another meaning is abundantly clear to me.

 

Why mention ritvik at all? Because so many captivated souls were coming to seek shelter of Param-Gurudev Srila Sridhar Maharaj and he wanted them to not feel cheated. He wanted to assure them that, by taking shelter of the lotus feet of Srila Govinda Maharaj, they were getting his full conception in its pure state.

 

Why would you assume that, contrary to established tradition, Srila Sridhar Maharaj intended Gurudeva's position as Ritvik to extend past Srila Sridhar Maharaja's manifest pastimes?

 

I have some Godbrothers and Godsisters who, due to a strong attachment for him, took hari-nama and diksha initiation from Sripad B. A. Sagar Maharaj (who is mentioned by Srila Sridhar Maharaj as an authorized ritvik of himself). They took initiation from *him* (certainly cognizant of the trust and faith placed in him by his siksa Guru) as Guru, not as ritvik, despite the presence of Srila Govinda Maharaja.

 

No scandal. No difficulty.

 

When circumstances changed and Sripad Sagar Maharaj left sannyas ashram, he lovingly guided his disciples to the feet of Srila Govinda Maharaj. This was all done with the utmost sweetness and no fuss. Nobody lost any faith in anybody or anything (as far as I can see).

 

You can call my worshipable God-Uncles, Aunts, Brothers and Sisters "idiots and fools" if you like, since, I am certain, you worship them in your heart even as you call them names.

 

 

As well, I think the parivar of Srila Sridhar Maharaja has suffered a great blow because idiots and fools around the Matha thought that if Govinda Maharaja was a ritvik and not an acharya that it would be an insult.

 

Being a ritvik to Sridhar Maharaja was never an insult or a diminshing of the authority and qualifications of Govinda Maharaja.

 

People with big egos and little minds stripped Govinda Maharaja of his ritvik status and reduced him down to a simple guru.

 

Sridhar Maharaja was not insulting or diminishing Govinda Maharaja by appointing him ritvik. It was the greatest honor and distinction that he could bestow on Govinda Maharaja, but some idiots loitering around the Matha couldn't understand that and thought that stripping Govinda Maharaja of his ritvik position was somehow more flattering than letting him be ritvik of Sridhar Maharaja.

 

When you are considering certain Mathas and institutions that were established by certain acharyas under particular acharyas with specific ontological nuances that distinguish the acharya from the masses, then there can never really be anything EXCEPT ritviks in the succession of the Matha.

 

That is what has preserved the Madhva sampradaya as a pristine sampradaya of Madhvacharya.

 

If the successors are "self-effulgent" acharyas, then the Matha gets hijacked by the successor and the founder-acharya gets moved to a secondary position.

 

That is why as far as ISKCON and SCSM goes there can only really ever be ONE acharya and ritvik successors.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

[Murali-mohan--if you'd like to write me privately at babhru {at} gmail {dot} com and remind me who you are, I'd like that. If not, that's cool, too.]

 

Sent an e-mail, but, since I don't guard my identity on this forum (I've mentioned my family name a couple of times as well as my father's full legal name), I'll respond generally.

 

I only spent one month at BV. If memory serves correctly, I was in Madhusudana Prabhu's Ashram.

 

You see, I was (and still am) very attached to my parents. The first time they tried to send me to BV, I got on my bike half an hour before the van was scheduled to leave and went bike riding for an hour and a half.

 

So, my parents made me a deal: go to BV for a month and check it out. If you're not happy, come back home after the month. I agreed.

 

It was a good month. At first, I jumped out of bed in the morning before the other kids and performed my morning ablutions. Then we'd walk under the most star-filled skies I've ever seen to a lovely Mangala Arati. My academic teacher (who's name escapes me at this moment) was a kind, intelligent devotee (with a British accent, perhaps?).

 

Really, it was an idyllic month with, in addition to sadhana, swimming in the lakes and playing soccer in the association of the devotees.

 

As the month wore on, though, my initial enthusiasm faded and I dragged myself out of bed just like the other children. I missed my parents and went back to L.A.

 

After that, I attended the day school at New Dwaraka being expertly nurtured by Mohana devi dasi.

 

My point is, Gurukula was certainly not all bad--in fact, for many of us, it was very, very good. Really, though, can anybody point out a formal system of education that has had no problems with abuse of authority?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Sorry to disappoint you, but I don't guage the success of anything (except maybe propaganda) based on polls.

 

What you say may have some truth from a particular perspective, but it's not a perspective I care to adopt.

 

I really don't know anything about "widespread abuse" or what most Gurukulis would say. I know my own experiences and have a fair sense of the mood of the Gurukulis I know personally.

 

If I had attended an elite East Coast prep school like Choate or Andover, no doubt I could have found instances of abuse, but would you take those instances as proof that the whole prep school system is a "failure" (from the material perspective--of course they are failures from a particular spiritual perspective)?

 

Yet again, mundane sustainability is not a consideration for me with regards to success. If Srila Prabhupada's journey to the West had led to his discovery of only *one* pure devotee before the movement (apparently) collapsed--that would have been more than enough.

 

For that matter, was the eventual collapse of the Gaudiya Math a sign of the failure of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati? I think not!!

 

 

I understand your sentiment and I never said ALL gurukulas failed. The SYSTEM failed. You just cant separate the good from the bad in this case. As a system, gurukulas were a failure not simply because of the widespread abuse due to extremely poor oversight, immaturity of the staff, etc. - but also nad primarily because the system mostly produced kids unprepared for normal functioning in the society - which is a basic purpose of any primary educational system. Yes, there are exceptions, but they are only exceptions.

 

The proof of the failure is in the average "product" of this system and in the fact that this system is now pretty much extinct.

 

If you polled ex-gurukulis most would not send their kids to the school they went to. That is the sustainability test. That is another symptom of a failure.

 

If you consider Iskcon gurukulas a success, I really dont know what is failure.

[Guruvani]

 

When you read the Will and Testament of Srila Sridhar Maharaj, the meaning seems abundantly clear to you.

 

 

You need to understand that the will was for legal purposes and for matters of inheritance, laws and governmental issues.

 

The actual declaration of spiritual succession was given publicly to the devotees on a special occasion.

 

Devotees dragged-out the legal will of estate to try and trump his declaration of spiritual succession, but it is a flimsy effort in face of his addressing all the devotees of the Matha with his specific spiritual instructions regarding his spiritual succession.

 

The will was for legal matters. It was not for spiritual matters.

 

His declaration of spiritual succession announced Govinda Maharaja as a ritvik, which was not necessary in the legal will and his passing on of properties in accordance with the laws of the state.

 

What he announced in front of the devotees was that Govinda Maharaja was a ritvik.

 

What he wrote in his legal documents is not reflective of the spiritual issues he addressed in his declaration of spiritual succession.

 

The Will was for the state goverment.

 

The declaration of spiritual succession was for the Vaishnava community and his followers.

 

The legal Will is of no concern to the Vaishnava community.

The Will was for the governmental matters.

 

It had nothing to do with the spiritual issues.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

I have no idea what you're talking about with the two different documents. I was referring to the document you posted as Maharaja's "Will and Testament".

 

Now that that is hopefully clear, can you address my actual questions?

 

To reiterate--how do you come to the conclusion that, by placing his full faith and blessing in Gurudev, and empowering him to initiate disciples of himself (Srila Sridhar Maharaj) via ritvik, there was any implication that, contrary to established custom, Srila Govinda Maharaja was to remain eternally in the formal position of ritvik (after all, he *is* eternally empowered to connect the sincere seeker with the lotus feet of his own Master) and not assume the full splendor of Acharya after his Gurudeva's departure?

 

 

You need to understand that the will was for legal purposes and for matters of inheritance, laws and governmental issues.

 

The actual declaration of spiritual succession was given publicly to the devotees on a special occasion.

 

Devotees dragged-out the legal will of estate to try and trump his declaration of spiritual succession, but it is a flimsy effort in face of his addressing all the devotees of the Matha with his specific spiritual instructions regarding his spiritual succession.

 

The will was for legal matters. It was not for spiritual matters.

 

His declaration of spiritual succession announced Govinda Maharaja as a ritvik, which was not necessary in the legal will and his passing on of properties in accordance with the laws of the state.

 

What he announced in front of the devotees was that Govinda Maharaja was a ritvik.

 

What he wrote in his legal documents is not reflective of the spiritual issues he addressed in his declaration of spiritual succession.

 

The Will was for the state goverment.

 

The declaration of spiritual succession was for the Vaishnava community and his followers.

 

The legal Will is of no concern to the Vaishnava community.

The Will was for the governmental matters.

 

It had nothing to do with the spiritual issues.

[Guruvani]

 

I have no idea what you're talking about with the two different documents. I was referring to the document you posted as Maharaja's "Will and Testament".

 

Now that that is hopefully clear, can you address my actual questions?

 

To reiterate--how do you come to the conclusion that, by placing his full faith and blessing in Gurudev, and empowering him to initiate disciples of himself (Srila Sridhar Maharaj) via ritvik, there was any implication that, contrary to established custom, Srila Govinda Maharaja was to remain eternally in the formal position of ritvik (after all, he *is* eternally empowered to connect the sincere seeker with the lotus feet of his own Master) and not assume the full splendor of Acharya after his Gurudeva's departure?

I never posted anything as Sridhar Maharaja's "will and testament".

 

I posted something from his "declaration of spiritual succession" as it is described on the official website for the Matha.

 

His "will and testament" is a legal document that the lawyer helped them draft in regards to his estate and the passing on of his property over to Govinda Maahraja. It was a seperate document from his "declaration of spiritual succession".

 

"splendor of acharya"?

 

You means that being a chaste disciple and acting as a transparent via-medium of the acharya is less splenderous than being an "acharya"?

 

Why is being a diksha-guru any more splenderous than being a ritvik?

 

If the acharya appoints you as ritvik, then there is nothing more splenderous than following the orders of the acharya.

 

There is nothing splenderous about disobeying the acharya and becoming an imitation acharya.

[Guruvani]

 

<table cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width="98%"><tbody><tr><td colspan="2">Public Declaration</td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td>by Srila Bhakti Rakshak Sridhar Dev-Goswami Maharaj

[from a recording on Gaura Purnima, 26th March, 1986] According to the desire of my Divine Master, I have been maintaining this Disciplic Succession but it is no longer possible for me, as I am now too old and an invalid. You all know from long ago I have chosen Sriman Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharaj and I have given him sannyasa. All my Vaishnava Godbrothers are very affectionate towards him and it is also their desire to give him this position. I have previously given to him the charge of the Math and now I am giving him the full responsibility of giving Harinam, diksha, sannyasa, etc., as an Acharya of this Math on behalf of myself.

Those who have any regard for me should give this respect and position to Govinda Maharaj as my successor. As much as you have faith in my sincerity, then with all sincerity I believe that he has got the capacity of rendering service in this way. With this I transfer these beads and from now he will initiate on my behalf as ritvik. The ritvik system is already involved both here and also in the foreign land. The ritvik is the representative. So if you want to take from me, and you take by his hands, then it will be as well and as good as taking from me. In the Mahamandala, Sagar Maharaj and many others are also ritvik of Swami Maharaj and also myself. They may do so, but in this Math and in any Math under this Math, he will be the representative. If anyone cannot accept this, he may leave the Math rather than stay here and disturb the peace of the Math. With all my sincerity and good feelings to Guru-Gauranga, to the Vaishnavas and the Acharyas, Mahaprabhu, Pancha-Tattva, Radha-Govinda and Their Parshadas, with all my sincere prayers to Them, henceforth he will represent me in this affair beginning from today's function.

Now I shall go from here and he will do the necessary. On my behalf, he will give Harinama, diksha, sannyasa, and everything.

</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"> <hr></td></tr></tbody></table>

[Guest guest]

 

 

My friend Bhakta Rupa (eldest son of Karandhar Prabhu) received a Gurukula education which was sufficiently competent to allow him to gain entry to the prestigious Harvard-Westlake Preparatory High School in L.A. (funded by Ramesvar Maharaj).

 

Dear Murali Mohan Prabhu,

 

Please accept my dandavat pranams. All glores to Srila Prabhupada and all the Vaishnava devotees!

 

This will be a sanitized and edited-down version of a message I have posted twice before but that was deleted by the moderators. Moderator, if you delete even this sanitized version, please leave a post explaining why, as I am trying to be a helpful participant on this forum. It is frustrating to post a simple message and then find myself banned for a week or two with no explanation or no seeming rationale.

 

Anyway, I was in New Dvaraka in the mid- to late-1980s. I'm a graduate of Harvard School, and served at the BBT under Rajendranath Prabhu and in the IOPA under Mukunda Maharaja.

 

I'm aware of Karandhara's Western surname, and I can tell you from my firsthand knowledge that there was no Hare Krishna devotee with that surname attending Harvard School between 1976 and 1989.

 

By the way, I assume you meant “Harvard School” rather than “Harvard-Westlake” as the schools didn’t merge until 1989, by which time Ramesvara had left for New York.

[Guruvani]

Sridhar Maharaja:

 

 

henceforth he will represent me in this affair beginning from today's function

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Wow!! So it's time to split hairs, eh? I defer to your greater knowledge about Harvard-Westlake.

 

If memory serves, BR did not graduate from Harvard School (or Harvard-Westlake, or...) since the funds to send him there stopped after a period (perhaps when Ramesvar Mj left?).

 

The point of raising this example was to illustrate that Gurukukla provided an adequate education as measured by conventional standards for those with some eagerness to learn.

 

If BR could gain admission to Harvard School, it's a safe assumption that he was adequately prepared by his Gurukula education. Whether he graduated is immaterial (in fact, he went on to graduate from a law school and is a member of the California Bar).

 

Considering his family name is "Smith", yeah, I'm sure the name would have jumped out at you, Prabhu Surely, there couldn't have been many Smiths at the school!

 

As for him not showing up to school every day in dhoti and kurta playing a mridanga and singing "Jiv Jago"--he isn't Prahlad Maharaj (who couldn't very well get expelled from Demon High, now could he, considering who his Dad was?). I read recently that the devotee, out in the world, will often conceal his devotional mood to facilitate performance of his mundane duties. BR was there to get an education (presumably to facilitate future preaching activities).

 

Dandavat pranamas at your very well-educated feet!!

 

 

Dear Murali Mohan Prabhu,

 

Please accept my dandavat pranams. All glores to Srila Prabhupada and all the Vaishnava devotees!

 

This will be a sanitized and edited-down version of a message I have posted twice before but that was deleted by the moderators. Moderator, if you delete even this sanitized version, please leave a post explaining why, as I am trying to be a helpful participant on this forum. It is frustrating to post a simple message and then find myself banned for a week or two with no explanation or no seeming rationale.

 

Anyway, I was in New Dvaraka in the mid- to late-1980s. I'm a graduate of Harvard School, and served at the BBT under Rajendranath Prabhu and in the IOPA under Mukunda Maharaja.

 

I'm aware of Karandhara's Western surname, and I can tell you from my firsthand knowledge that there was no Hare Krishna devotee with that surname attending Harvard School between 1976 and 1989.

 

By the way, I assume you meant “Harvard School” rather than “Harvard-Westlake” as the schools didn’t merge until 1989, by which time Ramesvara had left for New York.