GBC Never Authorized to Terminate Ritvik System

[Guest guest]

 

Wow!! So it's time to split hairs, eh? I defer to your greater knowledge about Harvard-Westlake.

 

If memory serves, BR did not graduate from Harvard School (or Harvard-Westlake, or...) since the funds to send him there stopped after a period (perhaps when Ramesvar Mj left?).

 

The point of raising this example was to illustrate that Gurukukla provided an adequate education as measured by conventional standards for those with some eagerness to learn.

 

If BR could gain admission to Harvard School, it's a safe assumption that he was adequately prepared by his Gurukula education. Whether he graduated is immaterial (in fact, he went on to graduate from a law school and is a member of the California Bar).

 

Considering his family name is "Smith", yeah, I'm sure the name would have jumped out at you, Prabhu Surely, there couldn't have been many Smiths at the school!

 

As for him not showing up to school every day in dhoti and kurta playing a mridanga and singing "Jiv Jago"--he isn't Prahlad Maharaj (who couldn't very well get expelled from Demon High, now could he, considering who his Dad was?). I read recently that the devotee, out in the world, will often conceal his devotional mood to facilitate performance of his mundane duties. BR was there to get an education (presumably to facilitate future preaching activities).

 

Dandavat pranamas at your very well-educated feet!!

Sorry about the last message, but the moderator's edited version left out some details that would have helped it make more sense. I didn't mean to upset or offend you.

 

By the way, there were just 110-130 kids in each grade, so as a very small community everybody did know everybody else. Even to the point of being able to tell the difference between the handful of kids with Karandhara's surname! <smile>

 

Your message indicates that gurukula ironically gave Bhakta Rupa a better material preparation than spiritual preparation. That was basically the point of my messages before they were edited by the moderator. Assuming that he was there sometime in the 1985-87 time frame before Ramesvara left, Harvard School people didn't know Bhakta Rupa as a devotee, even though there were other Hindu kids whose religion was respected and accepted.

 

I'm glad to learn of his later material success, though. Again, it seems ironic that gurukula may have given him a better material than spiritual preparation for life. In any case, I'm happy for him.

 

</smile>

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

I never posted anything as Sridhar Maharaja's "will and testament".

 

I never said you did. I called it that. Certainly, it *is* his spiritual will and testament, is it not?

 

 

I posted something from his "declaration of spiritual succession" as it is described on the official website for the Matha.

 

His "will and testament" is a legal document that the lawyer helped them draft in regards to his estate and the passing on of his property over to Govinda Maahraja. It was a seperate document from his "declaration of spiritual succession".

 

Clear enough! If I wanted to discuss his legal will and testament, no doubt I would have done so on a forum named "Legal Discussions" and not one called "Spiritual Discussions" wouldn't I?

 

 

"splendor of acharya"?

 

You means that being a chaste disciple and acting as a transparent via-medium of the acharya is less splenderous than being an "acharya"?

 

For those who have some love for him, Gurudev is the sweetest, most humble personality they have had the fortune of meeting. In all he does, he *is* a transparent medium for the conception of his Gurudev. His chastity to his Gurudev is never in question.

 

 

Why is being a diksha-guru any more splenderous than being a ritvik?

 

Don't think anybody said it was. However, I've heard the term "acharya abhiman" used to describe the confidence of the Guru. Sometimes Gurudev will say something that might sound like pride if it was coming from somebody without his sincerity (for example, "Ask me any question. I can answer...not that I have qualification, but that I have heard from my Gurudev"--I'm paraphrasing something I've heard from his lips). That is understood to be acharya abhiman.

 

So, while Srila Sridhar Maharaj was before our eyes, Gurudev maintained a certain mood (I won't even try to characterize it--especially since I had no experience of Gurudev from this period of time). Now that Srila Sridhar Maharaj is no longer manifest, perhaps the mood is different, but the difference is external--for the sake of audarya/distribution of mercy. To anyone with the eyes to see (and even to one as blind as I am), it is obvious that Gurudeva's legendary surrender to Srila Sridhar Maharaj is as complete now as it was at age 17.

 

 

If the acharya appoints you as ritvik, then there is nothing more splenderous than following the orders of the acharya.

 

There is nothing splenderous about disobeying the acharya and becoming an imitation acharya.

 

Agreed! Agreed!! Beyond obeying his Gurudev fully, I am certain Srila Govinda Maharaj continues to *delight* him (and Srila Swami Maharaja Prabhupada) as only he can.

 

Thank you Gauravani Prabhu for giving me this opportunity to try to praise Gurudev.

 

Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Dev-Goswami Maharaj ki Jai!!!!!

[Murali_Mohan_das]

No apologies necessary Prabhu!

 

I really can't say, though, if Gurukula prepared BR or myself better materially than spiritually. To my knowledge, there aren't any standardized tests to guage spiritual advancement (despite the existence of tests to guage reading retention).

 

I am what I am. As for BR, when I see him from time to time, I am struck by his sincerity. If you asked him, he would not claim to be a devotee. He is in no way pretentious (unlike me).

 

Still, I cannot help but see him as a Vaishnava due to his sincerity and exposure to saintly persons in his childhood.

 

Honestly, isn't his position as secure or more secure than somebody (anybody) on this forum offending the Vaishnavas in the name of Bhakti?

 

 

Sorry about the last message, but the moderator's edited version left out some details that would have helped it make more sense. I didn't mean to upset or offend you.

 

By the way, there were just 110-130 kids in each grade, so as a very small community everybody did know everybody else. Even to the point of being able to tell the difference between the handful of kids with Karandhara's surname! <smile>

 

Your message indicates that gurukula ironically gave Bhakta Rupa a better material preparation than spiritual preparation. That was basically the point of my messages before they were edited by the moderator. Assuming that he was there sometime in the 1985-87 time frame before Ramesvara left, Harvard School people didn't know Bhakta Rupa as a devotee, even though there were other Hindu kids whose religion was respected and accepted.

 

I'm glad to learn of his later material success, though. Again, it seems ironic that gurukula may have given him a better material than spiritual preparation for life. In any case, I'm happy for him.

 

</smile>

[Guruvani]

 

Thank you Gauravani Prabhu for giving me this opportunity to try to praise Gurudev.

 

Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Dev-Goswami Maharaj ki Jai!!!!!

I have yet to date seen any documented evidence that Govinda Maharaja has denied being a ritvik of Sridhar Maharaja.

 

What we do have is a number of Matha dwellers who reject his ritvik status and on their own authority have appointed Govinda Maharaja as diksha-guru and not ritvik.

 

So unless and until I hear something from his own lips, I will just accept that he considers himself a ritvik of Sridhar Maharaja, as his loyalty to the orders of Sridhar Maharaja is not liable to change over the opinions of psychophants who have designs of their own when Govinda Maharaja has passed-on.

[Guest guest]

 

Sorry to disappoint you, but I don't guage the success of anything (except maybe propaganda) based on polls.

 

 

So how do you define a success that is or was Isckcon gurukula system? That one of it's alumni entered Harvard?

 

 

You ask one interesting question:

 

"...was the eventual collapse of the Gaudiya Math a sign of the failure of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati?"

 

Gaudiya Math did not just fade away like ISKCON gurukulas. It has merely been transformed and it is wery much alive and well today, unlike Iskcon's gurukulas.

 

Another point is that I am not saying that the failure of Iskcon's gurukula system is the failure of Srila Prabhupada. I am saying that the gurukula system itself was a failure.

 

And on the issue of basic fairness: if you are ready to praise someone specific for the success of a project, you should also be prepared to assign responsibility for a failure of the project. However, the success has many fathers, but a failure is always an orphan.

[Guruvani]

 

 

Gaudiya Math did not just fade away like ISKCON gurukulas. It has merely been transformed and it is wery much alive and well today, unlike Iskcon's gurukulas.

 

 

 

However, lest we not forget that a good number of "Gaudiya Matha" temples and gurus didn't thrive very good at all until Srila Prabhupada passed away and western devotees created through ISKCON efforts drifted into their Mathas and brought some western wealth and influence with them.

 

Without benefitting from the preaching accomplishments of Srila Prabhupada, many of these "Gaudiya Matha" temples would be relatively poor and unsuccessful in missionary activities.

 

For some of these "Gaudiya Mathas", there successes were actually just another ISKCON success only by extension.

 

Srila Prabhupada's success even spilled over to some of his Godbrothers and their successors.

 

Sometimes though they bit the hand that fed them.

[Guest guest]

What a load of hogwash.

 

Srila Prabhupada himself saud that a Vaisnava is all powerful and accomplish anything. If not for ISKCON, someone else would have done it.

 

I don't buy this Prabhupada-only'ite theory.

 

 

However, lest we not forget that a good number of "Gaudiya Matha" temples and gurus didn't thrive very good at all until Srila Prabhupada passed away and western devotees created through ISKCON efforts drifted into their Mathas and brought some western wealth and influence with them.

 

Without benefitting from the preaching accomplishments of Srila Prabhupada, many of these "Gaudiya Matha" temples would be relatively poor and unsuccessful in missionary activities.

 

For some of these "Gaudiya Mathas", there successes were actually just another ISKCON success only by extension.

 

Srila Prabhupada's success even spilled over to some of his Godbrothers and their successors.

 

Sometimes though they bit the hand that fed them.

[Guest guest]

 

I have yet to date seen any documented evidence that Govinda Maharaja has denied being a ritvik of Sridhar Maharaja.

 

I have heard Srila Govinda Maharaja tell many times, "I did not want this chair (Vyasasana), I told Guru Maharaja (Srila Sridhar Maharaja), please give this chair to someone else, I do not care for any position. But Srila Guru Maharaja insisted, 'no you must take it'." If you can assume that this means rtvik chair and not the chair of the guru or acarya then you have become quite mad!

[Guest guest]

 

However, lest we not forget that a good number of "Gaudiya Matha" temples and gurus didn't thrive very good at all until Srila Prabhupada passed away and western devotees created through ISKCON efforts drifted into their Mathas and brought some western wealth and influence with them.

 

I see Iskcon as one of the forms GM evolved into from the original organization Srila Bhaktisiddhanta established. Not in the sense of bricks and mortar, but in the sense of people, mission, order, and ideas. Was Isckcon good for the rest of the GM family? Definitely... but the reverse is true as well. So we should all appreciate each other, not snipe at each other.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

So how do you define a success that is or was Isckcon gurukula system? That one of it's alumni entered Harvard?

 

To be clear, it's Harvard School, an exclusive college prep school in L.A., and not Harvard College.

 

http://www.hw.com/

 

I never tried to define ISKCON Gurukulas as an unmitigated success. I merely hoped to counter the assertion that they were an utter failure. Obviously, not all of us felt like we were let down.

 

 

 

You ask one interesting question:

 

"...was the eventual collapse of the Gaudiya Math a sign of the failure of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati?"

 

Gaudiya Math did not just fade away like ISKCON gurukulas. It has merely been transformed and it is wery much alive and well today, unlike Iskcon's gurukulas.

 

I really can't speak for the current state of ISCKON gurukulas. I believe there is still some sort of day school in L.A. No doubt there still *are* Gurukulas somewhere (if only in India).

 

However, I *would* be willing to say, the main reason for the (presumed) lack of vitality today would be lack of demand. If there are no householders in the immediate temple community, what need is there for a school? It's not a failure of the Gurukula system as much as a general failure to maintain strong, close-knit communities.

 

At the height of the L.A. Gurukula, there must have been over 100 children in a number of different ashramas--you should have seen the faces of the "karmi" parents when the vans pulled up at Lindbergh Park (in a few minutes, we usually had the park to ourselves)!! My own ashram teacher, Traidish (sp?) Prabhu was as (maybe even more) affectionate and patient with us as our own parents.

 

One could argue that the Gurukula success stories are isolated anecdotes and not indicative of the overall health of the system. Conversely, I would argue that the instances of abuse were mostly isolated. Perhaps in Dallas and Mayapur (or was it Vrindavan) Gurukulas, abuse was more systemic/endemic, but those two (or three) schools certainly did not comprise the majority of the historical ISKCON Gurukulas. No doubt abuse happened at New Vrindavan, but so did a lot of good things as well.

 

The seemingly endless tales of abuse have certainly clouded the historical perception of the Gurukulas. Hopefully, others will step forward to challenge the prevailing notion with some personal experiences.

 

 

 

Another point is that I am not saying that the failure of Iskcon's gurukula system is the failure of Srila Prabhupada. I am saying that the gurukula system itself was a failure.

 

And on the issue of basic fairness: if you are ready to praise someone specific for the success of a project, you should also be prepared to assign responsibility for a failure of the project. However, the success has many fathers, but a failure is always an orphan.

 

All true things you say, and beyond the scope of my reach. From my personal perspective, Gurukula was a success. I know whom I have to thank. I have no one to condemn.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Thank you, GuestWestern, for highlighting the humble mood of Gurudev!

 

Considering the mood of devotion you display for Gurudev Srila Prabhupad, can you really blame my Godbrothers, Guruvani-ji, if they were to say (which they don't as far as I know) that Govinda Maharaj is the second coming of the Christ, can walk on water and heal the lame (I know *I'm* pretty lame and I'm feeling more healed from day to day)?

 

Isn't it the mood of the disciple to see Gurudev as the all-in-all, the storehouse of all scriptural wisdom, the friend of the fallen?

 

If they are "psycophants", then aren't you as well?

 

 

I have heard Srila Govinda Maharaja tell many times, "I did not want this chair (Vyasasana), I told Guru Maharaja (Srila Sridhar Maharaja), please give this chair to someone else, I do not care for any position. But Srila Guru Maharaja insisted, 'no you must take it'." If you can assume that this means rtvik chair and not the chair of the guru or acarya then you have become quite mad!

[Guruvani]

 

I have heard Srila Govinda Maharaja tell many times, "I did not want this chair (Vyasasana), I told Guru Maharaja (Srila Sridhar Maharaja), please give this chair to someone else, I do not care for any position. But Srila Guru Maharaja insisted, 'no you must take it'." If you can assume that this means rtvik chair and not the chair of the guru or acarya then you have become quite mad!

 

Madness is relative. I am probably mad and your are probably mad as well, but on top of being mad you are obviously illiterate..

 

 

<table cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width="98%"><tbody><tr><td colspan="2">Public Declaration</td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td>by Srila Bhakti Rakshak Sridhar Dev-Goswami Maharaj

[from a recording on Gaura Purnima, 26th March, 1986] According to the desire of my Divine Master, I have been maintaining this Disciplic Succession but it is no longer possible for me, as I am now too old and an invalid. You all know from long ago I have chosen Sriman Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharaj and I have given him sannyasa. All my Vaishnava Godbrothers are very affectionate towards him and it is also their desire to give him this position. I have previously given to him the charge of the Math and now I am giving him the full responsibility of giving Harinam, diksha, sannyasa, etc., as an Acharya of this Math on behalf of myself.

Those who have any regard for me should give this respect and position to Govinda Maharaj as my successor. As much as you have faith in my sincerity, then with all sincerity I believe that he has got the capacity of rendering service in this way. With this I transfer these beads and from now he will initiate on my behalf as ritvik. The ritvik system is already involved both here and also in the foreign land. The ritvik is the representative. So if you want to take from me, and you take by his hands, then it will be as well and as good as taking from me.

In the Mahamandala, Sagar Maharaj and many others are also ritvik of Swami Maharaj and also myself. They may do so, but in this Math and in any Math under this Math, he will be the representative. If anyone cannot accept this, he may leave the Math rather than stay here and disturb the peace of the Math. With all my sincerity and good feelings to Guru-Gauranga, to the Vaishnavas and the Acharyas, Mahaprabhu, Pancha-Tattva, Radha-Govinda and Their Parshadas, with all my sincere prayers to Them, henceforth he will represent me in this affair beginning from today's function.

Now I shall go from here and he will do the necessary. On my behalf, he will give Harinama, diksha, sannyasa, and everything.

</td></tr></tbody></table>

[Guruvani]

 

What a load of hogwash.

 

Srila Prabhupada himself saud that a Vaisnava is all powerful and accomplish anything. If not for ISKCON, someone else would have done it.

 

I don't buy this Prabhupada-only'ite theory.

 

Well, of couple others tried before Srila Prabhupada and spend three years in London but couldn't accomplish anything more than using up a substantial amount of Gaudiya Matha funds.

 

So, I don't buy your argument that any of them could have done anything expect spend money and waste resources and time.

 

It doesn't matter if they could have.

They didn't do diddly-squat except surf on the wave ot the ISKCON Tsunami.

 

Bell-ringers anyone?

[Guest guest]

Srila Prabhupada said that if Bhakti Vinode Thakur had wished to establish this movment, he could have done so, but it was his mercy that he left it for the others.

 

According to you, nobody else could have done it, which is not what Srila Prabhupada said.

 

And what an irony, being a ritvik you talk about bell-ringers. It fits the description of ritviks perfectly. Like a snake, just trying to invade and take over other temples which the devotees work hard to build!

 

 

Well, of couple others tried before Srila Prabhupada and spend three years in London but couldn't accomplish anything more than using up a substantial amount of Gaudiya Matha funds.

 

So, I don't buy your argument that any of them could have done anything expect spend money and waste resources and time.

 

It doesn't matter if they could have.

They didn't do diddly-squat except surf on the wave ot the ISKCON Tsunami.

 

Bell-ringers anyone?