GBC Never Authorized to Terminate Ritvik System

[Guruvani]

Personally, I think that anybody who actually thinks that Srila Prabhupada would support or does support the failed GBC guru system, with it's long list of casualties, is stark raving mad.

How could anyone in their right mind think that Srila Prabhupada supports this madness of ISKCON's HALL OF SHAME and the many gurus who have their pictures on the walls there?

 

I feel absolutely certain that Srila Prabhupada DOES not support the GBC guru system and the ever increasing members of the HALL OF SHAME.

[Guest guest]

Thanks for presenting what you think.

[Guruvani]

 

Thanks for presenting what you think.

 

Oh, i'm sorry.

I forgot.

The GBC gurus don't allow people to think.

Just bow down and obey.

[gHari]

 

Srila Prabhupada explained the use of the word 'ritvik' in blue. This is not rocket science. There was no ritvik system:

 

PrabhupAda: Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up, I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating AcAryas.

 

TamAla KRSNa: Is that called Rtvik-AcArya?

 

PrabhupAda: Rtvik, yes.

 

SatsvarUpa: Then what is the relationship of that person who gives the initiation and the...

 

PrabhupAda: He's guru. He's guru.

 

SatsvarUpa: But he does it on your behalf.

 

PrabhupAda: Yes.

That is formality. Because

in my presence

one should not become guru

, so on my behalf, on my order... AmAra AjJAya guru haJA [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Be actually guru, but by my order.

 

SatsvarUpa: So they may also be considered your disciples.

 

PrabhupAda: Yes, they are disciples. Why consider? Who?

 

TamAla KRSNa: No, he's asking that these Rtvik-AcAryas, they're officiating, giving dIkSA. Their... The people who they give dIkSA to, whose disciple are they?

 

PrabhupAda: They're his disciple.

 

TamAla KRSNa: They're his disciple.

 

PrabhupAda: Who is initiating. He is

granddisciple.

 

SatsvarUpa: Yes.

 

TamAla KRSNa: That's clear.

 

SatsvarUpa: Then we have a question concer...

 

PrabhupAda: When I order, "You become guru," he becomes regular guru. That's all. He becomes

disciple of my disciple

. That's it.

 

Surely, intelligent vaisnavas see the reason that the rtvik cult avoid addressing this simple truth that evaporates the foundation of their cult. One seems to need to completely abandon reason. It has become bitterly obvious to the world that there is a major psychosis involved - and separation, disillusion are likely lying at the cause. Soon Prabhupada will be deified and a new cult of the trinity will emerge. But none of it will ever change Srila Prabhupada's 'clear' words above.

[suchandra]

 

Surely, intelligent vaisnavas see the reason that the rtvik cult avoid addressing this simple truth that evaporates the foundation of their cult. One seems to need to completely abandon reason. It has become bitterly obvious to the world that there is a major psychosis involved - and separation, disillusion are likely lying at the cause. Soon Prabhupada will be deified and a new cult of the trinity will emerge. But none of it will ever change Srila Prabhupada's 'clear' words above.

 

If you are so in favour to accept one of present ISKCON gurus why dont you get initiated by one of them and surrender your whole live in serving such a guru? Wouldnt that be fair? You advertise ISKCON's present guru system but you yourself dont get involved - just doesnt make sense or does it?

[Guest guest]

Likewise, nobody has shown me yet where Srila Prabhupada gave clear instructions 'repeatedly' in his many years of preaching to establish a ritvik system after his departure.

 

Letters wont do. Anybody could write anything. We need evidence of direct instructions. Otherwise, this ritvik issue is a waste of time and also not authorized.

 

 

Nobody has shown me yet where Srila Prabhupada gave the GBC authority to terminate the ritvik system at an time under any circumstances.

That's the point in this message.

Only Srila Prabhupada can establish the ritvik system and only he can terminate it.

Srila Prabhupada never told the GBC of any situation in the future wherein they would be authorized to dismantle the ritvik system.

We've already argued the other points many times.

Now, I want evidence that the GBC was authorized by Srila Prabhupada to terminate the ritvik system.

Fact is, the GBC was never given authority to terminate the ritvik system.

Srila Prabhupada never told the GBC that after his passing the ritvik system would have to be terminated.

The GBC never had the authority to shut-down the ritvik system.

Srila Prabhupad never gave them that authority.

That is just the plain fact.

[gHari]

 

If you are so in favour to accept one of present ISKCON gurus why dont you get initiated by one of them and surrender your whole live in serving such a guru? Wouldnt that be fair? You advertise ISKCON's present guru system but you yourself dont get involved - just doesnt make sense or does it?

I don't see this as a logical deduction.

 

Frankly, I am not sure that I am not initiated.

 

Nor am I sure that I am qualified to be anyone's disciple.

 

Nor am I sure that I am not surrendered and serving guru.

 

I can only wait for each moment's mercy.

 

But I do not fear or doubt my path or status.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

If you are so in favour to accept one of present ISKCON gurus why dont you get initiated by one of them and surrender your whole live in serving such a guru? Wouldnt that be fair? You advertise ISKCON's present guru system but you yourself dont get involved - just doesnt make sense or does it?

Not accepting the rtvik theory doesn't mean that one accepts current GBC ISKCON. It just means that one does not accept the rtvik theory as a viable alternative. The rtvik theory destroys the very basis of the guru parampara. The guru situation in ISKCON with the falldowns brings shame upon the parampara within a time, place and circumstance. The proper conception of guru tattva and guru parampara are eternal princibles.

[Guest guest]

You hit the nail on the head. Every rtvik debate Ive been in (which are quite numerous) had the rtvik insisting it is an "either-or" proposition. Anyone who does not accept rtvik theory is called a GBC lackey, even slurred so badly that if you oppose for valid stated reasoning, one has to be called a molester, a child abuser, etc.

 

I have steadfastly opposed the rtvik theory based on the fact that Srila Prabhupada does not teach this, he does not lecture this, nothing. At the same time, I agree with their ideas that one should not accept a guru because of fashion, out of eccliastic pressure, because that guru is the leader of the church, etc. This idea is also shot down completely by Srila Prabhupada in his books, his lectures, etc.

 

Fanatics always have this "us or them" mentality. This is why all rtvik debates are taken off the air because they will not accept the fact that rtvik is not an alternative to GBC abuse. Also, their debates come down to discounting Srila Prabhupadas teachings in favor of business letters to certain individuals.

 

Im sure of the content of the "last instruction" post. Some think they know what last instruction is, but maybe Im more of a rtvik than they are because I clearly state there is no last instruction, their is continuing instruction every minute of every day. Srila Prabhupada directs his disciples just as he did during his manifestation, and he orders them accordingly.

 

Anyway, some love these debates, Id rather speak of how Srila Prabhupada is available in the traditional way, not this bogus so-called empowerment of middle men, rtvik and GBC alike.

 

Haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guruvani]

The point I am raising with this topic is that Srila Prabhupada established the ritvik system in ISKCON as part of the GBC function, so I am just looking for any reference where any senior ISKCON man or GBC member mentioned to Srila Prabhupada ANYTHING about terminating the ritvik system after his departure.

There is NOTHING.

 

If these senior men knew that they were going to be "regular gurus" after the passing of Srila Prabhupada, then why didn't even one of them ask Srila Prabhupada for a definitiive and authoritative statement from Srila Prabhupada which would have effectively silenced the ritvik proponents forever?

 

They never asked Srila Prabhupada to confirm that the ritvik system had to be stopped after his departure. They never mentioned a word to that effect. Not a single man on the GBC breathed even a hint of shutting down the ritvik system after the passing of Srila Prabhupada.

 

One sentence, one statement from Srila Prabhupada could have silenced the ritvik proponents forever.

 

There is no such statement ever made by Srila Prabhupada.

 

Srila Prabhupada never ONCE mentioned anything about shutting down the ritvik system after his passing.

 

Therefore the conclusion is, either Srila Prabhupada was negligent or thoughtless to make a definitive propnouncement about stopping the ritvik process after his passiong, OR he never intended for the ritvik system to be terminated in ISKCON.

[Guruvani]

 

 

Anyway, some love these debates, Id rather speak of how Srila Prabhupada is available in the traditional way, not this bogus so-called empowerment of middle men, rtvik and GBC alike.

 

Haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

Why is it that an acharya can empower a disciple while he is living, but he can't empower him to continue it after he is passed away?

 

Srila Prabhupada empowered certain disciples to be ritviks on his behalf.

Where did Srila Prabhupada say that such empowerment stops at his passing?

 

Who are YOU to say that Srila Prabhupada can empower someone during his physical presence, but that the empowerment cannot continue after his passing?

 

Your logic is very flawed.

 

You agree that Srila Prabhupada had empowered ritviks during his physical presence, but YOU have decided that such empowerment ends with the passing of Srila Prabhupada.

 

You have no right or authority to say when and if the empowerment of disciples is withdrawn.

The empowerment is there until Srila Prabhupada said it is withdrawn.

 

Srila Prabhupada never withdrew the ritvik empowerments at any time before his passing.

 

Srila Prabhupada never put a time limit on this empowerment, but other people without authority have done so.

[Guest guest]

during the final months and weeks of Prabhupada's manifest pastimes the tape recorder was on almost continuously. Most likely TKG destroyed these tapes.

[Guest guest]

He did not. When asked to provide evidence, the ritviks produce some obscure letter which was not even written by Srila Prabhupada!

 

 

The point I am raising with this topic is that Srila Prabhupada established the ritvik system in ISKCON as part of the GBC function, so I am just looking for any reference where any senior ISKCON man or GBC member mentioned to Srila Prabhupada ANYTHING about terminating the ritvik system after his departure. There is NOTHING.

 

Because Srila Prabhupada had already clarified it several times without their asking. In accordance with scriptures, he said that they would be Gurus after his departure. Many posters have provided conclusive quotes but ritviks don't want to see it because it defeats their concocted philosophy completely!

 

 

If these senior men knew that they were going to be "regular gurus" after the passing of Srila Prabhupada, then why didn't even one of them ask Srila Prabhupada for a definitiive and authoritative statement from Srila Prabhupada which would have effectively silenced the ritvik proponents forever?

 

[Guest guest]

 

You hit the nail on the head. Every rtvik debate Ive been in (which are quite numerous) had the rtvik insisting it is an "either-or" proposition. Anyone who does not accept rtvik theory is called a GBC lackey, even slurred so badly that if you oppose for valid stated reasoning, one has to be called a molester, a child abuser, etc.

 

I have steadfastly opposed the rtvik theory based on the fact that Srila Prabhupada does not teach this, he does not lecture this, nothing. At the same time, I agree with their ideas that one should not accept a guru because of fashion, out of eccliastic pressure, because that guru is the leader of the church, etc. This idea is also shot down completely by Srila Prabhupada in his books, his lectures, etc.

 

Fanatics always have this "us or them" mentality. This is why all rtvik debates are taken off the air because they will not accept the fact that rtvik is not an alternative to GBC abuse. Also, their debates come down to discounting Srila Prabhupadas teachings in favor of business letters to certain individuals.

 

Im sure of the content of the "last instruction" post. Some think they know what last instruction is, but maybe Im more of a rtvik than they are because I clearly state there is no last instruction, their is continuing instruction every minute of every day. Srila Prabhupada directs his disciples just as he did during his manifestation, and he orders them accordingly.

 

Anyway, some love these debates, Id rather speak of how Srila Prabhupada is available in the traditional way, not this bogus so-called empowerment of middle men, rtvik and GBC alike.

 

Haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

 

Dear prabhu, in our 10 million people small country there was a time when 35 fulltime devotees distributed Bhagavad-gita and Back To Godhead magazins, invited people to come for the Sunday feasts to see the beautifully dressed Deities of Gaura-Nitai and blissfully chant Hare Krishna together. And everybody was full of hope and confidence that things will improve, we invisioned a farm with cows, a Govinda restaurant and a steadily growing congregation of friends of Krishna. Young families joined and started to sincerely turn their househould into a god-centered household. Everything seemed to improve.

Now there is no more temple, no more devotees, no more Deities, no more Sundayfeasts. It's all closed. Friends of Krishna turned into enemies of ISKCON. But this is for you a short laugh. You dont care and you dont like to hear this. A guru who cant fall down and is always a genuine spiritual shelter, always giving knowledge from within - this seems for many a real threat, a permanent danger. Something which the very nature of the material human brain - sankalpa and vikalpa, will never tolerate.

[Guest guest]

 

He did not.

He did not...what? Who is he? What did "he" not do or say?

[Guest guest]

Srila Prabhupada established the ritvik system in ISKCON.

 

 

He did not...what? Who is he? What did "he" not do or say?

[Guruvani]

If the GBC persists to insist that ritviks cannot represent Srila Prabhupada after his passing, then by the same token, we have to say that the GBC cannot represent Srila Prabhupada either.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

So, we should all now understand that the GBC is no longer a viable agency for representing Srila Prabhupada, because by their own policy, it is not possible to represent Srila Prabhupada after his passing away.

 

With the passing of Srila Prabhupada, the GBC has become unauthorized, because you cannot represent the acharya once he has left the physical presence.

[Guest guest]

 

Dear prabhu, in our 10 million people small country there was a time when 35 fulltime devotees distributed Bhagavad-gita and Back To Godhead magazins, invited people to come for the Sunday feasts to see the beautifully dressed Deities of Gaura-Nitai and blissfully chant Hare Krishna together. And everybody was full of hope and confidence that things will improve, we invisioned a farm with cows, a Govinda restaurant and a steadily growing congregation of friends of Krishna. Young families joined and started to sincerely turn their househould into a god-centered household. Everything seemed to improve.

Now there is no more temple, no more devotees, no more Deities, no more Sundayfeasts. It's all closed. Friends of Krishna turned into enemies of ISKCON. But this is for you a short laugh. You dont care and you dont like to hear this. A guru who cant fall down and is always a genuine spiritual shelter, always giving knowledge from within - this seems for many a real threat, a permanent danger. Something which the very nature of the material human brain - sankalpa and vikalpa, will never tolerate.

 

mahak: Not a laugh at all, its all very sad. Great disturbance has been cause, but is this not a test for all of us? Do we not have info about those in exile executing Krsna Consciousness?

 

And, sri guruvani, you misunderstand what I mean by empowerment. This is my basic dispute with the rtvik proponant who always wants proof of an order to initiate. They are the ones who insist that Srila Prabhupada is dead, they are the ones who say he no longer can give a disciple the order to be diksa guru. They are the ones who will forever reject any vaisnava, even if he is truely a mahabhagavata, uttama adhikari, because he cannot present a letter from prabhupad confirming it to serve their egomania.

 

I have been consistant in saying that Srila Prabhuipada is fully present in his vani, that he sits on the vyasasana of the heart of his bonafide disciple, but the rtviks always reject this because the person just may not be on their eccliastic religion bandwagon.

 

I actually accept the idea of an officiating acarya, an advanced disciple of Srila Prabhupada who has intimate relationship with him, being empowered to initiate on his behalf. This transcendental relationship between the guru and disciple is fully taught in Srila Prabhupadas books and lectures. But all this stuff about establishing a religion or reform movement based on letters and memos to managers of dubious authenticity is just a crock, has no bearing at all for anyone. I have provided proof of this in that an advanced disciple of Srila Prabhupada initiated four disciples on his behalf in august 1977 (after the J9 letter naming only 11). These disciples names were recorded in his book of the names of his disciples. The devotee who initiated for Srila Prabhupada was not even a member of ISKCON. I am a first hand witness. I am also a first hand witness that Srila Prabhupada had asramas who were fully in his service that were totally outside the jurisdiction of the GBC. When ever Srila Prabhupada visited the nearby ISKCON center, he simultaneously sent an emissary (Sri Brahmananda Swami in the case I was present at) to convey his best wishes and to give his support for the activities of the non-ISKCON affiliate. But maybe guruvani will say something to the effect that he didnt really mean this, that he was just patronizing us, etc.

 

Anyway, haribol. This conversation has been okay to this point, Im glad is hasnt yet deteriorated into the usual nonsense of rtvik v GBC debates.

 

ys in cooperation, mahaksadasa

[Guest guest]

Isn't the proper honorific Pujyapada or Sripad not Sri when you are talking about a fallible human being who exhibits symptoms of a conditioned soul?

[Guest guest]

It seems strange that someone would refer to their spiritual master trying to set up an ecclesiastical institution to carry on after his manifest lila ends as a "crock".

 

Didn't Prabhupada say that his spiritual master BSS wanted a GBC [bSS coined the phrase] or a team of people to oversee the external structure of things, like a committee? So it sounds like he was just trying to put into practice what his mentor had thought would be the best case scenario.

 

His mentor wrote [paraphrased] that ecclesiastical institutions were the best places for atheism disguised as atheism in this damned world and they stopped the flow of pure bhakti like dams. So his mentor said this, said , yet still he wished to set up an mechanism to perpetuate an external organization.

 

 

 

So it just seems bizarre to say that what your own guru tried to do and what his mentor also thought would be a best case scenario is "a crock".

 

It seems like they both were just trying to set up a situation where temples could be perpetuated and Deities worshipped. External solutions for external structures. Those who have internal deep relationship don't need the formalities of anything external.

 

Like in Gaudiya tradition Radharani is the highest. But you don't see Her arguing with Rukmini and Satyabhama that [whiney voice] "Just because Krsna signed a piece of paper with you doesn't mean that He loves you the best." She just knows and shuts up about it and avoids Their company.

 

 

 

And even in this world if somebody really liked someone else even if it was not legal than everyone knew about it. Like which old flame Frank Sinatra or Picasso really liked the best. The close associates knew and the biographers could figure it out also, or at least have their theories.

 

 

 

So it just seems really immature to argue about who is a heart disciple to your guru. That is what they call it in Tibetan Buddhism. The heart disciple is whoever transmitted the teachings to future generations the best. And there is no way to predict it: you can only look back at history.

 

And is even kind of tacky to say, "You are my heart disciple." That is why no

Tibetan ever puts that on a piece of paper and there is no ecclesiastical position of that. There is Dalai Lama a figurehead that all the four branches of Tibetan Buddhism respect . But within that tradition many many lamas and many heart disciples.

 

And only in retrospect people can figure it out. And it was not necessarily who was married to the lama, or who his personal servant was, or who his kids were, or who seemed to be the most fortunate and favored disciples while he was alive i.e. who had the most physical proximity to the lama.

 

The proof of the pudding is who authentically has moved people after the guru passed on with the teachings. So just seems weird to call what your own guru did "a crock".

[Guest guest]

On the last page of introduction to Bhagavad Gita As It Is by ACBSP it says that this is the disciplic succession:

 

28. Jagannatha

29. BVT

30. Gaurakishore

31. BSS

 

So I don't understand why you need to argue about all of this stuff. Because the diksa guru of BVT was Bipin Bihari. But it doesn't say Bipin Bihari in this book by ACBS Prabhupada. It lists the siksa guru of BVT is the way the disciplic succession went. It acknowledges Jagannatha Das Babaji and not Bipin Bihari.

 

Also Gaurakishore das Babaji took diksa from someone in Jahnava Mata's sampradaya and babaji vesha from Bhagavat das Babaji who was a disciple of Jagannatha das Babaji. But the book says Bhaktivinode then Gaurakishore.

 

So by having the above list in a BBT book printed by ISKCON c 1989 and the author is ACBSP it is pretty much saying that it doesn't matter who gives you the diksa initiation, doesn't it? If so, then why worry about it? You may as well just stand in front of a picture of a Babaji and give yourself a ceremony if that is who inspires you, like BSS did, is what this list seems to be saying.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

 

...So by having the above list in a BBT book printed by ISKCON c 1989 and the author is ACBSP it is pretty much saying that it doesn't matter who gives you the diksa initiation, doesn't it? If so, then why worry about it? You may as well just stand in front of a picture of a Babaji and give yourself a ceremony if that is who inspires you, like BSS did, is what this list seems to be saying.

 

 

then why worry about it? You may as well just stand in front of a picture of a Babaji and give yourself a ceremony if that is who inspires you, like BSS did, is what this list seems to be saying.

You still have to balance that truth with the fact that ACBSP and BSS gave hare nama and diksa to their disciples. There's the rule and the exception to the rule. BSS was a revolutionary acarya. If you are a revolutionary acarya then you can do, if one is just an ordinary devotee, forget it.

[Guruvani]

In the Saraswata parampara that Srila Prabhupada has given, there is about a hundred years gap that seperates Baladeva Vidyabusana and Jagannatha das Babaji.

So, in the parampara that Srila Prabhupada has given his disciples to accept, we have a great guru who never had any physical connection to his spiritual master.

Jagannatha das babaji never met Baladeva Vidyabusana, yet he is still referred to as the spiritual master of Jagannatha das Babaji.

 

so, in the parampara that Srila Prabhupada has given, there is most definitly a break in the physical succession principle.

 

Jagannatha das Babaji accepted a deceased Vaishnava as his spiritual master.

That is a fact in the Saraswata parampara of Srila Prabhupada.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja, "Sri Guru and His Grace": The disciplic succession is not a bodily succession. Sometimes it is present, and sometimes it is lost and only appears again after two or three generations, just as with Prahlada Maharaja. He was a great devotee, but his son was a demon; then again his grandson was a devotee. Even in the physical line we see such interruptions. In the spiritual line we also see the channel of truth affected by the influence of maya or misconception. So, the experts will seek out the important personages in the line.

 

 

So, the experts will seek out the important personages in the line.

 

 

Sometimes there are interruptions and sometimes a generation only appears skipped because the experts are only noting the "important personages".

[Guest guest]

Most people are not on the level of Jagannatha Das babaji, so let's not impersonate. We need living guru. If you're happy with ritvik, that's fine. You won't get far though. To each, his own.

 

 

In the Saraswata parampara that Srila Prabhupada has given, there is about a hundred years gap that seperates Baladeva Vidyabusana and Jagannatha das Babaji.

So, in the parampara that Srila Prabhupada has given his disciples to accept, we have a great guru who never had any physical connection to his spiritual master.

Jagannatha das babaji never met Baladeva Vidyabusana, yet he is still referred to as the spiritual master of Jagannatha das Babaji.

 

so, in the parampara that Srila Prabhupada has given, there is most definitly a break in the physical succession principle.

 

Jagannatha das Babaji accepted a deceased Vaishnava as his spiritual master.

That is a fact in the Saraswata parampara of Srila Prabhupada.