GBC Never Authorized to Terminate Ritvik System

[Guest guest]

 

Superb post Mahak prabhu!

 

Sadly, these misguided ritviks are bringing more disrepute to the movement. Poilce were called in at Bhativedanta Manor today. Please see the thread in 'world review'-

 

indiadivine.org/audarya/world-review/437810-police-temple-tension-london.html

 

No, the police were not called in to Bhaktivedanta Manor today. You don't know what you're talking about. Previously, there was a policy implemented by Vipramukhya Swami - the former TP and 'mahabahagavat guru' who ran off with a young lady - whereby the "misguided ritviks" (those who "misguidedly" believe that Srila Prabhupada is ISKCON's guru) had to sign a letter renouncing their "misguided" belief, otherwise the police would be called if they were seen in the temple. Get your facts straight prabhu .

 

The "disrepute" to the movement comes from those "gurus" who have run off with money, women, abused kids etc, not those who say all this is wrong! What warped world do you inhabit?!

 

As for Mahak's nonsense: "If one has a spiritual master (one more advanced than himself) who has fallen on hard times, even gone overboard into the ocean of nescience, he does not reject such a person, he returns the favor by becoming the counsel of such a person" - Srila Prabhupada states:

 

"A bona fide spiritual master is in the disciplic succession from time eternal and he does not deviate at all from the instructions of the Supreme Lord." (Bg. 4.42, purport)"

 

"There is no possibility that a first class devotee will fall down." (C.c. Madhya, 22.71)

 

"A spiritual master is always liberated." (SP Letter to Tamal Krsna, 21/6/70)

 

"Narada Muni, Haridasa Thakura and similar acaryas especially empowered to broadcast the glories of the Lord cannot be brought down to the material platform. Therefore one is strictly forbidden to think that the acarya is an ordinary human being (gurusu nara-matih).

SB 7.7.14, purport

[Guruvani]

 

LOL, I must commend you for making new theories almost everyday.

 

So now, we shouldn't have many gurus because it will create factions?! Wonder why Mahaprabhu didn't think of that when he said under my order, become guru!

 

Then why do you think Srila Prabhupada was saying then he wrote "the Lion's food has been carried away by the Jackal"?

 

What do you think Srila Prabhupada was referring to when he wrote:

 

 

The result of this philosophical deviation is evident to this day

as imitative sahajiyas are being worshiped as gurus in your

temples.

[Guest guest]

 

No, it is not convenient. Why not present shastra "as it is". You did not do this, you changed it all around, to suit your own agenda. Sure, you did a data search of the word "rtvik", and it came to the out-of-context quote you used. Then, because the word "rtvik" does not appear in Srila Prabhupadas translation, you make a dubious decision to ALTER Srila Prabhupadas translation to suit your agenda.

 

The quote you mis-used is very nice, however. It is descriptive of how one should respect and give honor to those whom the spiritual master entrusts with carrying out his mission. What the chapter DOES NOT AT ALL DEAL WITH is initiations, a guru system, or anything remotely related with what you are trying to do here.

 

I have no quarrel with anyone, brother. I support some who are acting as officiating acaryas, those who are actively carreying out Srila Prabhupada missionary work. But I dont join up, nor do I pledge allegiance to a bunch I refuse to associate with (GBC) for over thirty years. What I reject is speculators, revisionists, and all those who do everything they can to avoid Srila Prabhupadas plea that we all find a way to cooperate. No one cooperated while he was manifest, so why think that cooperation is gonna happen.

 

Rtviks are at mundane war with GBC, and it has nothing to do with spiritual life. This war has taken a serious toll, makes otherwise kindhearted vaisnavas into spewers of fault at every chance. The very best news a rtvik can have is that someone has fallen down or some sanyassi has committed a crime. This is so opposite of vaisnava character, that I vehemently reject anyone who engages in such things. They spew poison, and this has effect, it has affected me in the past as well.

 

An actual vaisnava, if he hears of a peer's falldown, becomes very sad, and prays very hard for the recovery of that devotee. If one has a spiritual master (one more advanced than himself) who has fallen on hard times, even gone overboard into the ocean of nescience, he does not reject such a person, he returns the favor by becoming the counsel of such a person.

 

This is vaisnava character, not all this horrendous negative preaching carried out by the PADA-IRM types, whose information is no different than the globe or enquirer tabloid drivel.

 

Haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

 

This is surely broadminded and highly advanced thinking, forgiveness and compassionate behaviour. Thousands of devotees have been driven out of ISKCON - all their services for Lord Caitanya's Sankirtan movement considered as useless, but you're right a Vaishnava remains equiposed and never thinks there's some injustice enforced on him. But isnt this behaviour when refering to his own situation?

An advanced devotee always considers misery and pain brought upon his live as mercy of the Lord and nothing else.

 

tat te’ nukampam susamiksamano

bhunjana evathma-krtam vipakam

hrd-vag-vapurbhir vidhdhan namas te

jiveta yo mukti-pade sa daya-bhak

 

My dear Lord, one who earnestly waits for You to bestow Your causeless mercy upon him, all the while patiently suffering the reactions of his past misdeeds and offering You respectful obeisances with his heart, words, and body, is surely eligible for liberation, for it has become his rightful claim.

One who is situated in this condition attains supreme spiritual peace, as confirmed in the Srimad Bhagavatam (11.2.43)

 

However, when we see our godbrothers and godsister being mistreated is this a good suggestion to say, well, what ever is inflicted upon other Vaishnavas, it is ok and their bad karma - they surely deserved it?

[Guest guest]

Your answers are completely out of context from Mahak prabhu's post.

 

 

Then why do you think Srila Prabhupada was saying then he wrote "the Lion's food has been carried away by the Jackal"?

 

What do you think Srila Prabhupada was referring to when he wrote:

[Guest guest]

I'll repeat what I said in the world review forum.

 

The riviks deserve no respect not because they believe Srila Prabhupada is the Guru. It's alright to believe that (in my opinion). They deserve no respect because their distasteful methods cause people to go elsewhere and many of them simply go to other hindu temples which are mostly impersonal or mayavadi, thus denying these people a chance to become Krishna Conscious. And then you guys have the nerve to call yourselves true followers of Srila Prabhupada.

 

 

No, the police were not called in to Bhaktivedanta Manor today. You don't know what you're talking about. Previously, there was a policy implemented by Vipramukhya Swami - the former TP and 'mahabahagavat guru' who ran off with a young lady - whereby the "misguided ritviks" (those who "misguidedly" believe that Srila Prabhupada is ISKCON's guru) had to sign a letter renouncing their "misguided" belief, otherwise the police would be called if they were seen in the temple. Get your facts straight prabhu .

 

The "disrepute" to the movement comes from those "gurus" who have run off with money, women, abused kids etc, not those who say all this is wrong! What warped world do you inhabit?!

 

As for Mahak's nonsense: "If one has a spiritual master (one more advanced than himself) who has fallen on hard times, even gone overboard into the ocean of nescience, he does not reject such a person, he returns the favor by becoming the counsel of such a person" - Srila Prabhupada states:

 

"A bona fide spiritual master is in the disciplic succession from time eternal and he does not deviate at all from the instructions of the Supreme Lord." (Bg. 4.42, purport)"

 

"There is no possibility that a first class devotee will fall down." (C.c. Madhya, 22.71)

 

"A spiritual master is always liberated." (SP Letter to Tamal Krsna, 21/6/70)

 

"Narada Muni, Haridasa Thakura and similar acaryas especially empowered to broadcast the glories of the Lord cannot be brought down to the material platform. Therefore one is strictly forbidden to think that the acarya is an ordinary human being (gurusu nara-matih).

SB 7.7.14, purport

[Guruvani]

 

Your answers are completely out of context from Mahak prabhu's post.

 

If Srila Prabhupada felt that the seniormost sannyasis and leaders of the Gaudiya Matha were "imitative sahajiyas", then what would he think about a gang of western derelicts climbing up on the Vyasasana and playing acharya?

 

If these Indian men with much pious background as seniormost disciples of Srila Saraswati Thakur were "imitative sahajiyas" in the eyes of Srila Prabhupada, then surely these western clowns pretending to be guru fall into the same category - "imitative sahajiyas" because they are posing as self-realized siddhas when all they really are is neophytes or in some cases shown to be asuras by plundering the assets of ISKCON for their own sense gratification.

[Guest guest]

But you dont start a religion out of it. Contact the police, report the crime, testify against the offender, and witness the exercize of justice. But this is criminal matter, not a religious movement, where one chants these offences and the names of the offender, over and over again.

 

Charlie manson, charlie manson, manson manson, charlie.

Gets you nowhere

 

Mahak

[Guest guest]

 

But you dont start a religion out of it. Contact the police, report the crime, testify against the offender, and witness the exercize of justice. But this is criminal matter, not a religious movement, where one chants these offences and the names of the offender, over and over again.

 

Charlie manson, charlie manson, manson manson, charlie.

Gets you nowhere

 

Mahak

It is of great import to note that just at that time around 1976 so many sannyasis fell down and Prabhupada said that he wants to stop giving sannyasa and made repeatedly announcements that instead he wants to change his movement towards a varnashrama society. Prabhupada never considered the fall down of a sannyasi as something peanuts or as we see presently instruct the devotees to seek for psychological help in cases of traumatization after some prominent devotee fell down and learn from professional psychologists how to peacefully live with it. The very opposite is true, Prabhupada taught that there is no such thing as falldown in vedic society, especially when falldowns take up epedemic dimensions like we have seen in the past. Therefore it should be clear that if Prabhupada wanted to abolish the giving of sannyasa why should he have appointed neophytes to sit on the sampradaya's vyasasana? And at the same time Prabhupada had already witnessed in the GM what great damage happens when a so called acarya falls down.

Prabhupada surely knew, when his sannyasis fall down like windfall, the diksa-gurus would do the same. Why people like Mahak prabhu consider Srila Prabhupada as so brainless that Prabhupada is too silly to conclude from A to B?

The only answer could be that there's an attempt to kick out Gaudiya-Vaishnavism altogether from western countries and keep people as enslaved as cannon fodder for the super rich globalization elite.

ISKCON's answer is just the opposite. In order to solve the falldown problem they do the same as the Church, to install only people as "sannyasi" and "guru" who cant falldown because they are fallen already when taking office. This is what you call then people who are glued in their armchair.

They cant preach properly, cant reach people's hearts but still are officiating for fourty years because they belong to the club.

Thats what Mahak prabhu obviously supports.

[gHari]

Mahaksadas, these poor souls are doomed and by engaging them we only compound their offenses. I suggest we let them alone, for they never listen or respond to reason anyway. I now have only an empty hole in my heart for both of them. Hopefully that is not Krsna's position too. It would however explain why that camp never thinks of Him. I am engaged to walk away from this ocean of aparadha. Surf at yer own risk, dude.

[Guest guest]

 

Mahaksadas, these poor souls are doomed and by engaging them we only compound their offenses. I suggest we let them alone, for they never listen or respond to reason anyway. I now have only an empty hole in my heart for both of them. Hopefully that is not Krsna's position too. It would however explain why that camp never thinks of Him. I am engaged to walk away from this ocean of aparadha. Surf at yer own risk, dude.

 

Yes, poor souls who take exclusive shelter of Krishna's authorised pure devotee Srila Prabhupada are 'doomed' not to be misled by bogus gurus.

 

Interesting that when faced with the facts and history of 'guru' deviations and falldowns, the anti-Prabhupada brigade responds: "aparadha". HOW can speaking the truth be "aparadha"?

 

 

"Narada Muni, Haridasa Thakura and similar acaryas especially empowered to broadcast the glories of the Lord CANNOT be brought down to the material platform. Therefore one is STRICTLY FORBIDDEN to think that the acarya is an ordinary human being (gurusu nara-matih)." (SB 7.7.14, purport)

 

"A bona fide spiritual master is in the disciplic succession from time eternal, and he does not deviate AT ALL from the instructions of the Supreme Lord" (Bg 4.42, purport)

[Guest guest]

I have to agree with GHari. You seem intent on continuing with your blind propaganda. Doesn't make sense conitnuing this discussion.

 

I will just finish with this- your insistence that anyone that speaks out against the ritviks is anti-Prabhupada is laughable! The real anti-Prabhupada'ites are the ritviks who will do anything to tarnish the name of ISKCON so they can get their way. It's a sad state of affairs.

 

 

Yes, poor souls who take exclusive shelter of Krishna's authorised pure devotee Srila Prabhupada are 'doomed' not to be misled by bogus gurus.

 

Interesting that when faced with the facts and history of 'guru' deviations and falldowns, the anti-Prabhupada brigade responds: "aparadha". HOW can speaking the truth be "aparadha"?

 

 

"Narada Muni, Haridasa Thakura and similar acaryas especially empowered to broadcast the glories of the Lord CANNOT be brought down to the material platform. Therefore one is STRICTLY FORBIDDEN to think that the acarya is an ordinary human being (gurusu nara-matih)." (SB 7.7.14, purport)

 

"A bona fide spiritual master is in the disciplic succession from time eternal, and he does not deviate AT ALL from the instructions of the Supreme Lord" (Bg 4.42, purport)

[theist]

 

Guest:However, when we see our godbrothers and godsister being mistreated is this a good suggestion to say, well, what ever is inflicted upon other Vaishnavas, it is ok and their bad karma - they surely deserved it?

 

It is never good to turn a blind eye to the suffering and mistreatment of others. Those that do so under the excuse of karma have set themselves to have a blind eye turned to their suffering under the same law.

 

When we see our godsiblings being mistreated of course we should speak up. But we must at the same time understand that we are all affected by karmic law. And beyond what we witness we can understand to be the effects of karma in a reduced state by the mercy of krsna or sometimes the suffering comes as as special grace from the Supreme Lord. Still we must do what we can to ease that suffering and set things right.

 

Like in the case of people starving. It surely is their karma but we should still act to feed them prasadam.

 

"The intracies of action and inaction are very hard to understand."

[suchandra]

 

It is of great import to note that just at that time around 1976 so many sannyasis fell down and Prabhupada said that he wants to stop giving sannyasa and made repeatedly announcements that instead he wants to change his movement towards a varnashrama society. Prabhupada never considered the fall down of a sannyasi as something peanuts or as we see presently instruct the devotees to seek for psychological help in cases of traumatization after some prominent devotee fell down and learn from professional psychologists how to peacefully live with it. The very opposite is true, Prabhupada taught that there is no such thing as falldown in vedic society, especially when falldowns take up epedemic dimensions like we have seen in the past. Therefore it should be clear that if Prabhupada wanted to abolish the giving of sannyasa why should he have appointed neophytes to sit on the sampradaya's vyasasana? And at the same time Prabhupada had already witnessed in the GM what great damage happens when a so called acarya falls down.

Prabhupada surely knew, when his sannyasis fall down like windfall, the diksa-gurus would do the same. Why people like Mahak prabhu consider Srila Prabhupada as so brainless that Prabhupada is too silly to conclude from A to B?

The only answer could be that there's an attempt to kick out Gaudiya-Vaishnavism altogether from western countries and keep people as enslaved as cannon fodder for the super rich globalization elite.

ISKCON's answer is just the opposite. In order to solve the falldown problem they do the same as the Church, to install only people as "sannyasi" and "guru" who cant falldown because they are fallen already when taking office. This is what you call then people who are glued in their armchair.

They cant preach properly, cant reach people's hearts but still are officiating for fourty years because they belong to the club.

Thats what Mahak prabhu obviously supports.

 

I dont think Prabhupada wanted to stop the sannyasa completely in 1977 - there is no reference to such a statement from him. After all, it is an important part of the varnashram system. He simply wanted to make it based on REAL qualifications, and not on a mere ambition for fame, profit, and distinction, as it clearly was the case before. The "easy sannyasa policy" of yesterday was clearly not working - so Prabhupada changed it. He was very pragmatic.

 

If I understand your question correctly, you are asking in essence:

 

If Prabhupada knew his disciples were not qualified for sannyasa, why would he think they were qualified to be gurus?

 

There are a number of possible answers here. But lets start with more questions related to this issue.

 

First of all: why was Prabhupada giving sannyasa to unqualified disciples in the first place? Was it neccessary? I dont think so. But he did give sannyasa to a lot of less than worthy people. He was criticized for that by his godbrothers and he even admitted they were right. So why did he do that? You may not like my answer, but it simply my opinion on this issue.

 

Prabhupada gave sannyasa to unqualified disciples because he thought it will help in the mission. When it turned out that yes, it was somewhat helpful, but carried a very high price - he backed off that idea.

 

Lets now look at the issue of succession. It is very clear that from the begining SP saw his disciples as the future next link in the disciplic succession. There is absolutely no indication to the contrary in all the volumes of his written or spoken word. He does not indicate ANYWHERE that he is planning to change the sampradaya mechanism. Yet he does realize his disciples are not ready for the job. And this is where the comparison to the sannyasa issue can be used.

 

option 1. SP somewhat reluctantly names devotees who will continue the succession. To me, the "appointment tape" very clearly proves just that.

 

option 2. Prabhupada has so little faith in his disciples that he decides to continue the expedient "ritvik guru" system, turning his branch of Lord Chaitanya's tree into a "Sikh-type" church.

 

 

Where does the "Talmudisation of the Vedas" happen? In other words: where does a legitimate tradition gets debased and compromised for the sake of creating fake spirituality in order to maintain the greedy and materialistic priestly class?

 

It certainly happened to a large extent in Iskcon. But the ritvik system you support has two serious flaws:

 

1. post-humous ritvik system is completely un-Vedic, and even the ritvik system as practiced by Prabhupada out of sheer neccessity is very controversial. thus if adopted - our tradition runs the risk of being seen as an apa-sampradaya by the vast majority of Vaishnavas in various lineages.

 

2. adoption of the "ritvik system forever" gives you zero protection from the process of "Talmudisation of the Vedas" as that process is only dependent on the quality of individuals in charge of the movement.

 

I dont support "Talmudisation of the Vedas" in any form, be it Iskcon or ritvik.

[Guruvani]

Srila Prabhupada has told on a number of occasions that this formal diksha is "just a formality", but the Vapuvadi Anti-ritviks want to make a religion out of formal diksha in abject defiance of the substance of Krishna consciousness.

 

Srila Prabhupada didn't come to west advertising Gaudiya Vaishnavism, rather he came presenting his offering as Krishna Consciousness. Srila Prabhupada came to give people Krishna consciousness, not some hackneyed ritualistic dogma of pretentious formalities.

 

Srila Prabhupada and Srila Sridhar Maharaja have both said that the formal ritual part of initiation is formality.

Why do people want to make this formality as the essence of Krishna consciousness?

Why do people want to make ritualism as the essence of the parampara?

 

The parampara is about connecting to the thought and the teachings of a particular acharya. It's not about formal diksha and the Vapuvadi external fraud of physical proximity.

 

People who stick to this formality as being the essence of parampara are the destroyers of the parampara as they attempt to reduce the parampara down to a physical chain of succession in opposition to the real substance of the parampara.

 

The killers of the parampara are not the ritviks, but the killers of the parampara are the form worshippers who blindly stick to formal ritualism and commit untold offenses to thousands of devotees who are followers of Srila Prabhupada.

There will be millions of disciples of Srila Prabhupada IN THE FUTURE.

So, get use to it.

Srila Prabhupada is going to be spreading Krishna consciousnes on this planet and accepting disciples for thousands of years to come.

 

Woe to the fool who tells the world that anyone cannot become a disciple of Srila Prabhupada now or in the future.

[Guest guest]

 

I dont think Prabhupada wanted to stop the sannyasa completely in 1977 - there is no reference to such a statement from him.

"If you talk in the modern society they will laugh: "What nonsense this man is... 'By sex life one becomes conditioned.' " They cannot understand. Hare Krsna... (japa) This should be strictly outlawed, no more sannyasis. And those sannyasis who have fallen, you get them married, live like a... No more this showbottle, cheating. It is very ludicrous. Even there is a promise that "We shall not fall down again," that is also not believable. What is the use?"

(Room Conversation, 7th January, 1977)

 

"And this kind of hypocrisy--they have taken sannyasa and mixing with woman. This is not to be allowed. If you want woman you get yourself married, live respectfully. We have no objection. But this hypocrisy should be stopped. There have been so many fallen down. First of all there will be no sannyasi anymore. I have got very bad experience."

(Room Conversation, 7th January, 1977)

[Guest guest]

Quite arrogant to think you can simply become someone's disciple without that person's acceptance. Just like the ritviks are doing ... 'want initiation? No problem ... We can get you Srila Prabhupada's initiation!" Like it is something so cheap. Live on in your fantasy world...

 

 

Woe to fool who tells the world that anyone cannot become a disciple of Srila Prabhupada now or in the future.

[Guruvani]

 

Quite arrogant to think you can simply become someone's disciple without that person's acceptance. Just like the ritviks are doing ... 'want initiation? No problem ... We can get you Srila Prabhupada's initiation!" Like it is something so cheap. Live on in your fantasy world...

Arrogant? It's a fact Srila Prabhupada accepted as his disciple all the devotees that were approved and recommended by the temple presidents and the zonal GBC members.

He didn't have to observe them or approve them personally.

The fantasy is your blunted conception that ritual initiation is actual diksha.

The fantasy is the illusion that physical proximity and formal diksha is parampara.

Parampara is the continuation of pure and proper knowledge of Krishna.

Parampara is NOT a formal ritual.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

Srila Prabhupada has told on a number of occasions that this formal diksha is "just a formality", but the Vapuvadi Anti-ritviks want to make a religion out of formal diksha in abject defiance of the substance of Krishna consciousness.

How does it logically compute that those who believe that the diksa process should continue have made a religion out of formal diksa? Could this be an over generalization?

 

 

Srila Prabhupada didn't come to west advertising Gaudiya Vaishnavism, rather he came presenting his offering as Krishna Consciousness. Srila Prabhupada came to give people Krishna consciousness, not some hackneyed ritualistic dogma of pretentious formalities.

The term Krsna Consciousness was derived from the very name of Sri Krsna Caitanya. Caitanya means consciousness. Mahaprabhu appeared in Gauda desa so His followers who consider Him to be Krsna Himself are known as Gaudiya Vaisnavas.

 

 

...The parampada is about connecting to the thought and the teachings of a particular acharya.

This is a point worth contemplating. Many devotees seem to be pushing their branch of Krsna Consciousness rather that exhorting people to be Krsna Conscious. Why is this? How will it stop? But why is the rtvik conception the solution?

 

 

It's not about formal diksha and the Vapuvadi external fraud of physical proximity.

That "fraud" existed during Prabhupada's time. It's like some devotees think that all they have to do is sit in front of the guru without actually practicing and serving. But labeling the behaviour "Vapuvadi" politicizes the issue. Isn't it really just one manifestation of kannistha adhikary mentality?

And labeling it Vapuvadi means that there are the anti-Vapuvadis; then what are they? Vanivadis? It becomes an us and them mentality? And how is this different from pushing a particular branch of Krsna Consciousness instead of Krsna Consciousness in its pristine eternal conception, free of time, place and circumstantial considerations.

 

 

 

People who stick to this formality as being the essence of parampara are the destroyers of the parampara as they attempt to reduce the parampara down to a physcial chain of succession in opposition to the real substance of the parampara.

 

The killers of the parampara are not the ritviks, but the killers of the parampara are the form worshippers who blindly stick to formal ritualism and commit untold offenses to thousands of devotees who are followers of Srila Prabhupada.

Here's some retaliatory ad hominom statements which are a little more than shaking the fists and beating the chest.

 

 

 

 

There will be millions of disciples of Srila Prabhupada IN THE FUTURE.

So, get use to it.

Srila Prabhupada is going to be spreading Krishna consciousnes on this planet and accepting disciples for thousands of years to come.

 

Woe to fool who tells the world that anyone cannot become a disciple of Srila Prabhupada now or in the future.

Even if rtviks or some kind of junior guru is doing the formal initiation that doesn't mean that the initiated persons are direct disciples of Srila Prabhupada? This is truly a contentious point. One could accept that there are junior gurus (junior in devotional status). But one wouldn't necessarily then have to jump to the conclusion that the inititiates are direct disciples of Srila Prabhupada. Why wouldn't they equally be disciples of Srila Bhaktisiddhant Saraswati Thakur and Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur? Many of the same issues underlining these contradictions led to the Reformation against the Papacy in Rome. Why reinvent the wheel? Just be a Protestent and read your Bible and interpret it on your own. The specific meanings in Srila Prabhupada's books are now being debated on the internet on a daily basis. But some insist that there can be no interpretation. This is similar to writing a book about how books are not necessary.

[Guruvani]

There seems to be some misunderstanding about my comprehensive views on the ritvik and guru issue.

Here is an article that was published on the Sampradaya Sun that sums up my thought rather well..

 

 

 

Ritvik System Was GBC Specific - Not All Encompassing

BY: KSHAMABUDDHI DASA

 

Dec 2, USA (SUN) —

There seems to be a lot of confusion in the Krishna consciousness movement surrounding the issue of Ritvik theory. Some proponents claim Ritvik is all encompassing and exclusive of traditional parampara rituals, while others see the Ritvik system as GBC specific and not exclusive of any traditional system that might also carry on under the umbrella of ISKCON. Proponents of the traditional system will present such quotes as:

 

• "I wish that, in my absence, all my disciples become the bona fide spiritual master."
  
  
  "They are helping me in this missionary work. At the same time, I shall request them all to become spiritual master. Every one of you should be spiritual master, next."
  
  
  "Every student is expected to become acharya . . . I have given you sannyasa with the great hope, that, in my absence, you will preach the cult."
  
  
  "Just adhere yourself to the lotus feet of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Then you become spiritual master. That's all. So, I hope that all of you men, women, boys, and girls become spiritual master and follow this principle."
  
  
  " . . . it is distinct that, although he was a conditioned soul in his previous life, there was no impediment of his becoming the spiritual master. This law is applicable not only to the spiritual master, but to every living entity."
  
  
  "Maybe, by 1975, all of my disciples will be allowed to initiate and increase the number of generations. That is my program."
  
  
  "By 1975, all of those who have passed all of the above examinations will be specifically empowered to initiate and increase the number of the Krishna conscious population."
  
  
  " . . . just like I have got my disciples, so, in the future, these many disciples may have many branches of disciplic succession . . ."
  
  
  "I am very much hopeful that my disciples, who are now participating today--even if I die--my movement will not stop. I am very much hopeful. Yes. All these nice boys and girls who have taken so seriously . . . You have to become spiritual masters."
  
  

 

All these quotes are relevant quotes pertaining as to how individual disciples have been authorized to become spiritual masters when and if the demand arises. If any disciple can generate such faith in people that they want to become their disciples, the there is plenty of instruction from Srila Prabhupada that approves of that.

 

However, we have a fanatic branch of the Ritvik school that says that the Ritvik system is all encompassing and exclusive of the traditional parampara system of direct apprenticeship. However, if we go to examine the actual Ritvik appointments in ISKCON we find them as an integral GBC specific system that Srila Prabhupada had established on the authority of the ISKCON Governing Body Commission.

 

The Ritvik system was a GBC specific process by which new devotees could be initiated into ISKCON on behalf of the acharya, Srila Prabhupada. It was never meant to be an all encompassing, exclusive process to be imposed unwillingly on every new devotee that joined the movement. It was an option, a process and a procedure for formally initiating devotees into ISKCON if in fact they wanted exclusively to accept Srila Prabhupada as their diksha guru.

 

There is no reason to think that Srila Prabhupada in establishing the Ritvik system was in any way making it exclusive and stepping on the faith of new devotees that might feel a more genuine connection through a traditional guru-disciple relationship with any senior member of ISKCON. It is not likely that this was the idea of Srila Prabhupada.

 

The Ritvik appointments were GBC specific and were made in response to a formal inquiry by a representative of the GBC as to what the role of the GBC would be after the passing of Srila Prabhupada and what the GBC as a body should do regarding the issue of initiations, which they had been performing for years on behalf of Srila Prabhupada.

 

When the GBC sent Satsvarupa das Goswami up to Srila Prabhupada for answers to the GBC dilemma he replied:

 

 

• May 28, 1977 Vrindavan, India
  
  
  Krsna-Balarama Temple
  Satsvarupa Goswami:
  Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you are no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiation(s) would be conducted?
  
  
  Srila Prabhupada:
  Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acarya(s).
  
  
  Tamal Krsna Goswami:
  Is that called Ritvik acarya?
  
  
  Srila Prabhupada:
  "Ritvik. Yes".
  
  

 

So, these were his instruction to the GBC as a body. They were not instructions for the sum-total of all his disciples to follow.

 

We have already presented a body of quotes relevant to disciples in general. It really only seems logical that both the Ritvik system and the traditional parampara system should be practiced in ISKCON, depending upon the needs of the new devotees joining ISKCON.

 

If a new devotee wants to join ISKCON as a Ritvik initiate of Srila Prabhupada, then his faith should be encouraged and nurtured. If a new devotee wants to join ISKCON as a direct disciple of a senior member of ISKCON, then his faith should be encouraged and nurtured.

 

ISKCON should be encouraging and nurturing the faith all devotees that join ISKCON in regards to their specific needs.

 

Then again, there are those that discourage both the Ritvik concept and the traditional concept of initiation in ISKCON and just preach connecting to the Acharya Sampradaya through the Sampradaya Acharya directly without any need for either process of formal initiation. This approach to ISKCON should also be encouraged to nurture the faith of all the new members coming to join ISKCON.

 

Why can’t ISKCON be broad enough in scope and spectrum to accommodate all the different schools of thought in regards to expanding ISKCON? Why must there be infighting and strife amongst the family of Srila Prabhupada?

 

Can’t we all start to grow up a little and get beyond all this bickering and party spirit?

 

 

[suchandra]

 

Just be a Protestent and read your Bible and interpret it on your own. The specific meanings in Srila Prabhupada's books are now being debated on the internet on a daily basis. But some insist that there can be no interpretation. This is similar to writing a book about how books are not necessary.

 

Lets say KC realy spreads globally in every town and village - as it is predicted, how can you believe that all these devotees can base their spiritual life on such a shaky guru system like present ISKCON teaches to the world? The very dynamic of the Sankirtan movement is not meant to report about fallen gurus - there's just no room for such messages. Just imagine in CC it would have been mentioned, "..and then this guru fell down and was fallen......"

Just impossible! Only demons fall when killed by Krishna.

[suchandra]

 

Live on in your fantasy world...

 

 

"Hello, darkness, my old friend,

I've come to talk with you again,

Because a vision softly creeping,

Left its seeds while I was sleeping,

And the vision that was planted in my brain

Still remains ... within the sound of silence."

 

--- The Sound of Silence, Paul Simon (1964), recorded with Art Garfunkel (1966)

[Guest guest]

And what makes you think it is solely ISKCON that will spread KC is every town & village? We should overcome this sectarian thinking. There are great empowered Vaisnavas in ISKCON but equally so, they are there outside of ISKCON as well.

 

 

Lets say KC realy spreads globally in every town and village - as it is predicted, how can you believe that all these devotees can base their spiritual life on such a shaky guru system like present ISKCON teaches to the world? The very dynamic of the Sankirtan movement is not meant to report about fallen gurus - there's just no room for such messages. Just imagine in CC it would have been mentioned, "..and then this guru fell down and was fallen......"

Just impossible! Only demons fall when killed by Krishna.

[Guest guest]

Post #94 was nice and clear. Thank you for sharing that information. Makes alot of sense. Unity in diversity.

[Guest guest]

But Ill say one more thing. There is never a case where one has to place an imperfect slob as a link to parampara. Never. So, this means that one does not have to surrender to an official functionary of the foundation to insure membership in the society of devotees.

 

This is an equal slap for imperfect slobs posing as gurus in ISKCON as well as imperfect slobs who want to be rtvik initiators. Imperfect slobs, if followed makes one only an imperfect slob.

 

Better to accept only those who are supreior in advancement in Krsna Consciousness. Srila Prabhupada confirms this approach in that we relate to only three individual types in our quest for vaisnavism:

 

1. Those who are less advanced than ourselves, we try to instruct up to the level of our advancement.

 

2. Those who are equal to ourselves in advancement, we try to befriend and work cooperatively in spreading this movement.

 

3. Those who are more advanced than ourselves, we try to take instruction from such a person, and serve such persons with rapt attention.

 

Being that this is a self-realization process, we have to at least honestly assess our level of advancement, and act accordingly per the above criteria.

 

No imperfect intermediaries are even hinted at in shastra. One never approaches god thru dog. All the science for understanding vaisnava characteristics is

well covered in Srila Prabhupadas books. All should reject anyone who says prabvhupada can only be understood thru them, this is entirely bogus, and is the basis for my vehement rejection of all guru "systems" espoused by both the GBC and various rtvik camps.

 

Haribol, ys mahaksadasa

[Guruvani]

The GBC had for years been the agency through which aspiring devotees could get recommendations and initiation in ISKCON.

From the time the GBC was established until the end, the only way a devotee could get initiation from Srila Prabhupada was with GBC recommendation.

 

It is a fact that only a very few rare cases did anyone get initiation from Srila Prabhupada without GBC recommendation.

 

So, it was only natural that the GBC men were concerned about how the initiation process would continue after the passing of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Never before in the history of the Gaudiya cult did an acharya put a group of senior disciples in charge of training new disciples and performing initiation on his behalf.

It was a first.

It was unprecedented.

It was unchartered territory.

Srila Prabhupada was breaking new ground.

Srila Prabhupada was establishing a new protocol in a guru-disciple relationship.

 

So, of course, the GBC men felt a necessity for defintiive word from Srila Prabhupada on what, if any, role they would have in this initiation process after the time of his passing.

 

They approached Srila Prabhupada on May 28th 1977 for an answer to this question.

Srila Prabhupada replied that he would appoint "officiating acharyas".

Tamal then asked Srila Prabhupada if this was called "ritvik acharya".

Srila Prabhupada said only "ritvik, yes". (not ritvik acharya)

 

Tamal obviously wanted some Sanskrit term to describe this function.

He had heard Srila Prabhupada before refer to this representative function as ritvik, so he inquired if these officiating acharyas could be referred to as ritviks.

 

The rest of that conversation is up for interpretation, but some people feel that there was some manipulation involved as Tamal seemed to be rejecting this officiating acharya concept and pressuring Srila Prabhupada to acknowledge them as regular gurus.

Tamal asked about if someone initiates a devotee then whos disciple would he be.

Obviously, Srila Prabhupada was acknowledging that the traditional role would also be there if someone accepted his own disciple.

Initially, he suggested this "officiating acharya" concept for the GBC who had been overseeing all initiations in ISKCON for almost a decade.

 

So, it appears to me that Srila Prabhupada gave the GBC this officiating acharya system as the official ISKCON system.

Otherwise, this most important function of the GBC of overseeing and performing initiations would no longer be a part of it's function.

 

Without this officiating function of the GBC, the GBC would then be reduced down to mere corperate officials having lost a very important responsibility that they had for years been performing.

 

With the advent of the "traditional parampara" into ISKCON and the termination of the ritvik system, the GBC has become mere corperate managers as all the authority then becomes transferred to the new crop of gurus coming up.

That of course is a major paradigm shift for the GBC and significant reduction in the power and authority that Srila Prabhupada had invested in the GBC.