GBC Never Authorized to Terminate Ritvik System

[Guruvani]

Yet, breaking the four regs isn't the only type of falldown.

There is the falldown of imitation as well.

There is the falldown of accepting disciples when one is not really actually qualified to accept disciples.

 

Some people would argue that setting on the Vyasasan when one is yet a neophyte is a falldown.

 

The desire for prestige and honor is a falldown.

Accepting sannyasa for prestige and position is a falldown.

 

Becoming guru as means of livelyhood is a falldown.

Becoming a carreer guru in the institution is a falldown.

 

There a many "fallen" persons who are apparently maintaining the minimum standard of regulative principles, but who have fallen down on the subtle level by harboring desires for prestige, honor and position.

 

As Sridhar Maharaja has explained, this desire for prestige is the most subtle and the most stubborn of all vices.

It's not something that you can see or prove with empiric observation, but something that can be cloaked in the garb of service or sacrifice.

It is nonetheless a vice and falldown from pure devotional service.

[Guest guest]

It seems like there were many, many instances in which a sincere sadhaka had to accept an imperfect person in contemporary history.

 

 

 

There were many sincere people who wanted to be preachers, pujaris, Deity chefs, and Deity tailors living all around the world in the last four decades. In addition, there are many people of a monastic nature who wanted to live in a condusive atmosphere to be immersed in spiritual life, being pure, rising at 4am, listening only to bhajans and kirtans all day, not mundane music.

 

For all of these people it **was** necessary to initially at least accept an imperfect person in order to get the necessary brahmana's initiation to live in a temple and do this service. Some people chose this, to their mind, lesser evil because they did not want to have as their lifelong vrittis and samskaras [impressions on the mind] working in the secular world and listening to mundane music.

 

 

 

Also one guru in ISKCON wrote a book about how many of the people they initiated were way more advanced than they were. So if a person wanted to live in a monastic setting and preach or do Deity worship as their full time seva for the past few decades then you had to jump through whatever hoops. And it **was** necessary.

 

You can't go on the altar in an ISKCON temple or become the head pujari of a temple if you stand in front of a picture of a Babaji and give yourself initiation.

It is like an accredited college versus an unaccredited university, that's all.

So accepting an imperfect person has been a necessary fact of life for some.

But even a funky college can sometimes produce exemplary citizens.

[Guest guest]

Who is that guru?

 

 

Also one guru in ISKCON wrote a book about how many of the people they initiated were way more advanced than they were.

[suchandra]

 

Who is that guru?

 

This is of course advanced Vaishnava etiquette - you say bhakta so and so is more advanced than the temple president, but actually this is just meant to encourage a new devotee.

[Guruvani]

 

"Hello, darkness, my old friend,

I've come to talk with you again,

Because a vision softly creeping,

Left its seeds while I was sleeping,

And the vision that was planted in my brain

Still remains ... within the sound of silence."

 

--- The Sound of Silence, Paul Simon (1964), recorded with Art Garfunkel (1966)

 

Anybody who knows that song must be at least 53 years old and probably more like 55 years old or around there?

Is my crystal ball telling me the truth?

[Beggar]

 

For all of these people it **was** necessary to initially at least accept an imperfect person in order to get the necessary brahmana's initiation to live in a temple and do this service. Some people chose this, to their mind, lesser evil because they did not want to have as their lifelong vrittis and samskaras [impressions on the mind] working in the secular world and listening to mundane music.

Yet that's such a wrong reason to approach a guru. The siksha guru is called bhakta srestha in Caitanya Caritamrta. So if one is approaching a guru for instruction one should search for the bhakta srestha, the best devotee. This is certainly inferred by Kaviraja Goswami.

 

 

But even a funky college can sometimes produce exemplary citizens.

Here I agree. Sridhar Maharaja said that the example is that in some places the Ganges is narrow and in some places it is very wide, but it is still the Ganges.

[Guest guest]

Srila Prabhupadas version is that one never accept a fool, never "necessary".

 

"We have to find an exalted person and willingly surrender before him. The sastras enjoin that before we take a guru we study him carefully to find out whether we can surrender to him. We should not accept a guru suddenly, out of fanaticism. That is very dangerous. "

 

haribol, mahaksadasa

[suchandra]

 

Srila Prabhupadas version is that one never accept a fool, never "necessary".

 

"We have to find an exalted person and willingly surrender before him. The sastras enjoin that before we take a guru we study him carefully to find out whether we can surrender to him. We should not accept a guru suddenly, out of fanaticism. That is very dangerous. "

 

haribol, mahaksadasa

 

But that is exactly what 3000 devotees who carefully studied Harikes and 3000 who carefully studied Bhagavan where doing. Do you want to say 6000 people behaved like idiots and if they have listened to you they would have not made that desastrous mistake? The problem seems to be somewhere else. For example present ISKCON gurus are called by the GBC in good standing and not fallen. But how do we know that there're some of them not fallen right now but just pretend to be bona fide gurus, how do you find out? If a so called guru says I leave with my girl-friend and take my disciples money then of course people know, how about someone stays within ISKCON, pretends to be a guru but actually is in fallen condition, how do you find out?

[Guest guest]

NECTAR OF INSTRUCTION, PURPORT TO VERSE 5

========================================

Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has given some practical hints to the effect that an uttama-adhikārī Vaiṣṇava can be recognized by his ability to convert many fallen souls to Vaiṣṇavism. One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikārī. A neophyte Vaiṣṇava or a Vaiṣṇava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikārī as a spiritual master.

========================================

 

Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikārī as a spiritual master.

 

Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikārī as a spiritual master.

 

Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikārī as a spiritual master.

 

Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikārī as a spiritual master.

 

Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikārī as a spiritual master.

 

Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikārī as a spiritual master.

 

Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikārī as a spiritual master.

 

Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikārī as a spiritual master.

 

Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikārī as a spiritual master.

 

Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikārī as a spiritual master.

 

Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikārī as a spiritual master.

[Guest guest]

Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikārī as a spiritual master.

 

And if you cannot find an uttama-adhikari in ISKCON then if you are sensible you will go and search for an uttama-adhikari outside of ISKCON.

[suchandra]

 

Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikārī as a spiritual master.

 

And if you cannot find an uttama-adhikari in ISKCON then if you are sensible you will go and search for an uttama-adhikari outside of ISKCON.

 

This is surelly correct but the GBC passed the Action Order that there are NO specific qualifications required to be an ISKCON guru. The GBC explicitly does NOT say, our gurus are uttama-adikaris.

[Guruvani]

 

Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikārī as a spiritual master.

 

And if you cannot find an uttama-adhikari in ISKCON then if you are sensible you will go and search for an uttama-adhikari outside of ISKCON.

 

but, be careful because ISKCON doesn't have any monopoly on pretenders.

There are some real good imitation uttamas being passed-off nowadays.

Srila Prabhupada considered most of the Gaudiya Matha "gurus" as "imitative sahajiyas" so, ISKCON certainly isn't the only place you can get cheated.

[Guest guest]

devotee writes: "but that is exactly what 3000 devotees who carefully studied Harikes and 3000 who carefully studied Bhagavan where doing. Do you want to say 6000 people behaved like idiots and if they have listened to you they would have not made that desastrous mistake?"

 

mahaksadasa: Not listen to me. The disasterous mistake they made was accepting a guru suddenly out of fanaticism. The mistake they made was they did not find an exalted person, they did not study them. They did not approach this science scientifically. They would not have made the disasterous mistake if they had FOLLOWED the direction of Srila Prabhupada. When the phonies began to tell them they were the successors and took vyasasanas and accepted all that adulation, they would have recognized how cheap all that garbage was. I had virtually no associates in ISKCON (and I had many, believe me) who fell for the zonal acarya claptrap (-lapt), I knew no one who had anything on the ball at all who fell for the worship of the disco-guru, the hillbilly acarya, nazipada, or any of them. The people I associated with studied those they gave aural reception to and served with rapt attention, and never believed out of fashion, because they had a need to belong, etc. Srila Prabhupada did not create the salvation army or the home for useless hippies who needed a temple to exist in. He tried to give us intelligence so that when we came face to face with serious kali cela cheaters, we could see thru them like we see thru the water that runs down the drain. These are Srila Prabhupadas words, not mine:

 

"We have to find an exalted person and willingly surrender before him. The sastras enjoin that before we take a guru we study him carefully to find out whether we can surrender to him. We should not accept a guru suddenly, out of fanaticism. That is very dangerous. "

 

Srila Prabhupada also teaches:

 

" We may then ask why the living entity is suffering. The answer is: out of ignorance. He does not think, "I am committing mistakes and am leading a sinful life; that is why I am suffering." Therefore the guru's first business is to rescue his disciple from this ignorance. We send our children to school to save them from suffering. If our children do not receive an education, we fear that they will suffer in the future. The guru sees that suffering is due to ignorance, which is compared to darkness. How can one in darkness be saved? By light. The guru takes the torchlight of knowledge and presents it before the living entity enveloped in darkness. That knowledge relieves him from the sufferings of the darkness of ignorance.

 

One may ask whether the guru is absolutely necessary. The Vedas inform us that he is:

 

tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet

samit-panih srotriyam brahma-nistham

(Mundaka Upanisad 1.2.12)

 

The Vedas enjoin us to seek out a guru; actually, they say to seek out the guru, not just a guru. The guru is one because he comes in disciplic succession. What Vyasadeva and Krsna taught five thousand years ago is also being taught now. There is no difference between the two instructions. Although hundreds and thousands of acaryas have come and gone, the message is one. The real guru cannot be two, for the real guru does not speak differently from his predecessors. Some spiritual teachers say, "In my opinion you should do this," but this is not a guru. Such so-called gurus are simply rascals. The genuine guru has only one opinion, and that is the opinion expressed by Krsna, Vyasadeva, Narada, Arjuna, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and the Gosvamis. Five thousand years ago Lord Sri Krsna spoke the Bhagavad-gita, and Vyasadeva recorded it. Srila Vyasadeva did not say, "This is my opinion." Rather, he wrote, sri-bhagavan uvaca, that is, "The Supreme Personality of Godhead says." Whatever Vyasadeva wrote was originally spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Srila Vyasadeva did not give his own opinion.

 

Consequently, Srila Vyasadeva is a guru. He does not misinterpret the words of Krsna, but transmits them exactly as they were spoken. If we send a telegram, the person who delivers the telegram does not have to correct it, edit it, or add to it. He simply presents it. That is the guru's business. The guru may be this person or that, but the message is the same; therefore it is said that guru is one."

 

mahaksadasa: Doint accept just anyone as guru, make sure that person can rescue you. He has to be on the boat. If someone is drowning and throws you a lifeline, you drown too. Make sure the lifeline you accept has someone on the boat at the other end of that line.

 

haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guruvani]

P.T. Barnum said, "there is a sucker born every minute".

So, it is not amazing that there are 6000 or 60,000 or 6 million suckers who got duped by "imitative sahajiyas".

[Beggar]

 

P.T. Barnum said, "there is a sucker born every minute".

So, it is not amazing that there are 6000 or 60,000 or 6 million suckers who got duped by "imitative sahajiyas".

 

If you want to make God laugh, tell him your future plans.

Woody Allen

[Guruvani]

 

If you want to make God laugh, tell him your future plans.

Woody Allen

 

God already knows your plans before you tell him.

- Guruvani

[Guest guest]

I agree. therefore the cheated person has to assume some responsibility as well. we can't just blame a fallen guru.

 

 

P.T. Barnum said, "there is a sucker born every minute".

So, it is not amazing that there are 6000 or 60,000 or 6 million suckers who got duped by "imitative sahajiyas".

[gHari]

PrabhupAda (1975):

 

advaitaM hariNAdvaitAd

AcAryaM bhakti-zaMsanAt

bhaktAvatAram IzaM tam

advaitAcAryam Azraye

[Cc. Adi 1.13]

 

So gradually the author is offering respect, zrI-kRSNa-caitanya prabhu-nityAnanda zrI-advaita. He has already offered respect to Lord Caitanya and Lord NityAnanda. Now it is the turn for SrI AdvaitAcArya. So advaitam, nondifferent, expansion of MahA-ViSNu. Therefore He is ViSNu-tattva; He is not jIva-tattva. Therefore He is advaita. Advaitam acyutam anAdim ananta-rUpam [bs. 5.33]. KRSNa has got unlimited number of expansions: expansion, expansion of the expansion, then expansion of the expansion, in this way. So AdvaitAcArya is expansion of KRSNa, it is already explained. Therefore He is called advaitam, and AcAryaM bhakti-zaMsanAt.

 

This is the business of AcArya, to spread bhakti cult. AcAryaM mAM vijAnIyAt nAvamanyeta karhicit. It is said by the Lord that "You should accept the AcArya..." AcArya means one who transmits bhakti cult. Bhakti-zaMsanAt, spreading, goSThyAnandI. One who is not spreading--he is cultivating KRSNa consciousness for his personal benefit in a secluded place, sitting and chanting--that is also nice, but he's not AcArya. AcArya means he must spread. GoSThyAnandI. BhajanAnandI, goSThyAnandI. So generally, goSThyAnandI means one who wants to increase the number of devotees. He's called goSThyAnandI. And one who is self-satisfied, that "Let me do my own duty," he is called bhajanAnandI. So my Guru MahArAja, BhaktisiddhAnta SarasvatI ThAkura, he was goSThyAnandI. He wanted to increase the number of devotees. And the more you increase the number of devotees, the more you become very much recognized by KRSNa. It is KRSNa's business. KRSNa personally comes as He is, KRSNa, to spread this bhakti cult. Man-manA bhava mad-bhakto mad-yAjI mAM namaskuru [bg. 18.65]. Sarva-dharmAn parityajya mAm ekaM zaraNaM vraja [bg. 18.66]. He's canvassing personally.

 

paritrANAya sAdhUnAM

vinAzAya ca duSkRtAm

dharma-saMsthApanArthAya

sambhavAmi yuge yuge

[bg. 4.8]

 

So same thing entrusted to another devotee, and who spreads, he's AcArya.

 

So KRSNa says, the AcArya... Here it is said that advaitaM hariNA advaitAd. So of course Advaita AcArya is expansion of ViSNu-tattva, but any AcArya, he is to be considered identical with the Lord. The Lord says that, that AcAryam mAM vijAnIyAt: "One should understand the AcArya..." AcArya bhakti-zaMsanAt. AcArya means who is spreading pure bhakti cult. "That AcArya," KRSNa says, "you should consider such AcArya as Myself." AcAryaM mAM vijAnIyAt nAvamanyeta karhicit, that... You cannot consider, "Yes, he's AcArya, but not as good as KRSNa." No. Na avamanyeta. Don't deride in that way. Then there will be falldown. AcAryaM mAM vijAnIyAt nAvamanyeta karhicit. And in the Vedas also it is said, yasya deve parA bhaktir yathA deve tathA gurau: [sU 6.23] "Anyone who has got unflinching faith in the Supreme Personality and the similar faith in guru..." Yasya deve parA bhaktir yathA deve tathA gurau, tasyaite kathitA hy arthAH: "All the Vedic literature," prakAzante, "becomes revealed simply by these two principle." Guru-kRSNa kRpA pAya bhakti-latA-bIja. We should not jump over KRSNa without the help of guru. That is not possible. You must go through. Because KRSNa says, AcAryam mAM vijAnI... TasmAd guruM prapadyeta jijJAsuH zreya uttamam: [sB 11.3.21] "Actually one who is serious to understand higher transcendental subject matter, he must approach guru." TasmAd gurum, prapadyeta. These are Vedic injunctions. CakSudAna dilo yei, janme janme pitA sei. So anyone who opens... Guru means who opens the eyes of the ignorant person. AjJAna-timirAndhasya jJAnAJjana-zalAkayA. Opening the eyes by giving real knowledge... Guru-kRSNa kRpA pAya bhakti-latA-bIja. So bhakti-latA, the devotional service, the seed of devotional service, can be received by the paramparA system through bona fide spiritual master. And if we abide by the orders of spiritual master faithfully, then KRSNa becomes pleased. That is stated by VizvanAtha CakravartI ThAkura, yasya prasAdAd bhagavat-prasAdaH **. Ara nA koriya mane AzA. Narottama dAsa... All the AcAryas, they say like that. AcAryam mAM vijAnIyAt. AcAryavAn puruSo veda: "One who has accepted AcArya, he knows things as they are." Others, they do not know. It is not possible.

So Advaita AcArya is the typical example how to become AcArya. All are our AcAryas, zrI-kRSNa-caitanya prabhu-nityAnanda, zrI-advaita gadAdhara zrIvAsAdi-gaura-bhakta-vRnda. All of them are AcAryas because they are following the AcArya, supreme AcArya, Caitanya MahAprabhu. Therefore they are AcArya. EvaM paramparA-prAptam imaM rAjarSayo viduH [bg. 4.2]. So we have to follow the AcArya. Then, when we are completely, cent per cent follower of AcArya, then you can also act as AcArya. This is the process. Don't become premature AcArya. First of all follow the orders of AcArya, and you become mature. Then it is better to become AcArya. Because we are interested in preparing AcArya, but the etiquette is, at least for the period the guru is present, one should not become AcArya. Even if he is complete he should not, because the etiquette is, if somebody comes for becoming initiated, it is the duty of such person to bring that prospective candidate to his AcArya. Not that "Now people are coming to me, so I can become AcArya." That is avamanya. NAvamanyeta karhicit. Don't transgress this etiquette. NAvamanyeta. That will be falldown. Just like during the lifetime of our Guru MahArAja, all our Godbrothers now who are acting as AcArya, they did not do so. That is not etiquette. AcAryaM mAM vijAnIyAt na avaman... That is insult. So if you insult your AcArya, then you are finished. Yasya prasAdAd bhagavat-prasAdo yasya aprasAdAt na gatiH kuto 'pi **--finished. If you displease your AcArya, then you are finished. Therefore it is said, Caitanya MahAprabhu says to all the AcAryas... NityAnanda Prabhu, Advaita Prabhu and SrIvAsAdi-gaura-bhakta-vRnda, they are all carriers of orders of SrI Caitanya MahAprabhu. So try to follow the path of AcArya process. Then life will be successful.

And to become AcArya is not very difficult. First of all, to become very faithful servant of your AcArya, follow strictly what he says. Try to please him and spread KRSNa consciousness. That's all. It is not at all difficult. Try to follow the instruction of your Guru MahArAja and spread KRSNa consciousness. That is the order of Lord Caitanya.

 

AmAra ajJAya guru haJA tAra' ei deza

yAre dekha tAre kaha ‘kRSNa'-upadeza

[Cc. Madhya 7.128]

 

"By following My order, you become guru." And if we strictly follow the AcArya system and try our best to spread the instruction of KRSNa... YAre dekha tAre kaha ‘kRSNa'-upadeza [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. There are two kinds of kRSNa-upadeza. Upadeza means instruction. Instruction given by KRSNa, that is also ‘kRSNa'-upadeza, and instruction received about KRSNa, that is also ‘kRSNa'-upadeza. KRSNasya upadeza iti kRSNa upadeza. SamAsa, zAsti-tat-puruSa-samAsa. And KRSNa viSayA upadeza, that is also KRSNa upadeza. BAhu-vrIhi-samAsa. This is the way of analyzing Sanskrit grammar. So KRSNa's upadeza is Bhagavad-gItA. He's directly giving instruction. So one who is spreading KRSNa-upadeza, simply repeat what is said by KRSNa, then you become AcArya. Not difficult at all. Everything is stated there. We have to simply repeat like parrot. Not exactly parrot. Parrot does not understand the meaning; he simply vibrates. But you should understand the meaning also; otherwise how you can explain? So, so we want to spread KRSNa consciousness. Simply prepare yourself how to repeat KRSNa's instructions very nicely, without any malinterpretation. Then, in future... Suppose you have got now ten thousand. We shall expand to hundred thousand. That is required. Then hundred thousand to million, and million to ten million.

[Guest guest]

 

And what makes you think it is solely ISKCON that will spread KC is every town & village? We should overcome this sectarian thinking. There are great empowered Vaisnavas in ISKCON but equally so, they are there outside of ISKCON as well.

 

 

(This is Srila Prabhupada is reading a leaflet from the Gaudia Matha which was given out to be distributed to the public).........

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, temples. And "He is the acarya of the present Gaudiya-sampradaya."

 

"Those who wish to follow other substitutes and pretenders to the throne are welcome to do so - they have many hundreds to choose from: " (Conversation, 19th January, 1976)

 

lol I guess Prabhupada was sectarian according to you guest.

[Guest guest]

 

 

Hare Krsna Prabhuji,

 

PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

Just a quick question...

 

Did Srila Prabhupada order anyone to become Guru?

 

Ys.

 

JHCal

[Guest guest]

 

Hare Krsna Prabhuji,

 

PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

Just a quick question...

 

Did Srila Prabhupada order anyone to become Guru?

 

Ys.

 

JHCal

 

PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

1) Srila Prabhupada did not authorise DIKSA gurus to succeed him in ISKCON. His final directive on initiations (July 9th 1977) only appointed "ritviks", or representatives, to initiate disciples on his behalf. Furthermore, his Last Will and Testament (June 4th 1977), which is applicable for the entire lifetime of ISKCON, clearly only refers to initiated disciples of himself ("my initiated disciple") acting as executors of his properties in India.

 

2) Srila Prabhupada authorised everyone (GBC, men, women and children) to act as SIKSA gurus, or instructing gurus/preachers:

 

"The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I am in the initiator guru, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This I want." (SPL 4 Aug 1975)

 

 

"Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu... Yare dekha tare kaha ‘krsna’-upadesa: “You become guru. No qualification required. Simply you repeat what Krsna has said.” Just see how simplified. Don’t talk anything nonsense. Yare dekha tare kaha ‘krsna’—bas. So who cannot do it? Anyone can do it, even a child. (laughs) Our Syamasundara’s daughter. She was preaching, “Do you know Krsna?” They said, “No I have got no...” “The Supreme Personality.” This is preaching, simply if you say that “Krsna is the Supreme Personality, supreme controller. Just be obedient to Him.” Where is the difficulty? Anyone can preach. Chant Hare Krsna. Bas. Three words: Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead; surrender unto Him; and chant Hare Krsna. Your life will be successful. What is the difficulty in preaching these three words? Hm? Is there any difficulty? Even a child like Sarasvati, she can preach. Then what to speak of others? Those who are educated, grown-up, advanced, they can put the matter more nicely, more convincingly, more philosophically. That is another thing. But these three words, that “Krsna is the Supreme Lord; you are servant; and chant Hare Krsna”—bas, preaching complete. Very simple thing and the sublime instruction. Everyone can become guru by simply teaching these three words."

(SP Conv. Jan 25 1977)

[Guruvani]

With the GBC guru system that has been adopted in ISKCON, ISKCON is now doomed to perpetual scandal, controversy and disturbance as the phenomenon of falling gurus will never go away as long as immature and unfit individuals are allowed to assume the position of acharya in ISKCON and become diksha gurus.

 

That means that ISKCON has lost all credibility and will never get it back as long as this system of fallible gurus is conducted in ISKCON.

 

It's not like there was only one or two disasters.

There has been disaster after disaster after disaster over and over again since these fallible people have been acting as acharyas in ISKCON.

 

This would NEVER be acceptable to Srila Prabhupada - not in a million years.

Anyone who thinks that Srila Prabhupada supports the GBC guru sytsem is out of touch with reality and living in a fantasyland of illusion.

 

Whats the solution?

 

Is ISKCON going to die an ignonimous death at the hands of the fallible GBC guru system?

Or has it already?

 

The majority of western Vaishnavas now look at ISKCON with disgust and disappointment.

Just because these people manage to make a few disciples here and there doesn't change the fact that the majority of western Vaishnavas consider ISKCON as defunct.

[Guruvani]

The question now is who are the real scoundrels amongst the ISKCON gurus, the ones that left or that ones that stayed on to continue the fraud?

 

Is Ramesvar really worse than the ones still hanging around ISKCON setting on thrones in the Holy dhams?

[bhaktachris]

GBC never authorized to terminate the ritvik system, is the thread title, and i see this thread has 3 pages of which i have only read the last post.

 

But actually the GBC did terminate the ritvik system on July 9th 1977, when tamal kookna wrote a letter, and forged Prabhupada's signature on it, stating that from then on, only 11 would do the work. He used the word ritvik, so in a sense, he/GBC did not terminate it, but if you judge a thing by its result, the system of local mean senior man doing, was ended then. After that letter, you could not be given your spiritual name, and become a disciple of Prabhupada. NO! After that letter you became a disciple of one of the so called ritviks, which is ofcourse a word from tamal. There may be similar words in the original books, but no word "ritvik" or rttvik".

 

The followers of tamal like to say that the letter written by tamal is the "final order" or the authorization for "ritviks" but actually it was the tool used to end the system that Prabhupada had in place for some time before. Namely that there was the senior man locally around, who was trustworthy, and usually voted in, by the local devotees, who would recommend and initiate on behalf of our Master Srila Prabhupada.

[Guruvani]

As far as the term "ritvik" is concerned, Srila Prabhupada personally used the term several times.

He also sent letters to some of his senior men instructing to continue to be "ritvik" and develop their preaching in that way.

 

Tamal first heard the term from Srila Prabhupada before the "ritvik" appointments and was simply recalling the way in which Srila Prabhupada had previously referred to his representatives who initiated disciples on behalf of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Tamal didn't know Sanskrit. He couldn't even read the script. (even I can do that). So, when he brought up the term ritvik in regards to the "officiating acharyas" he was simply wanting to understand this position in terms of Sanskrit nomenclature.

 

One thing for sure, Tamal did not invent the term ritvik.

 

Some antagonists like to propose that he did, but that is just due to their ignorance of the long history of ritvik initiation is ISKCON before 11 ritviks were given the authority to approve initiations even without final approval from the acting secretary of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Anyone that thinks Tamal invented the term "ritvik" is wrong.

 

Srila Prabhupada had used that term on other occasions to describe the priests in ISKCON who performed initiations on behalf of the acharya of the institution.

 

Tamal didn't have a clue what a ritvik was before Srila Prabhupada had explained it to him previously.

 

So, he was just recalling the terminology that Srila Prabhupada has used on other occasioins.

 

These people who say that Tamal introduced the term "ritvik" into ISKCON are fools.

They don't know what the hell they are talking about.

 

ISKCON had ritviks for years before the appointment of the 11 officiating acharyas that Srila Prabhupada appointed.

 

Actually these officiating acharyas were both officiating acharyas and ritvik if they approved the initiation into ISKCON as well as performed the fire sacrifice.

 

The officiating acharyas were given authority to approve initiations in ISKCON.

The ritviks were the temple presidents, brahmans and sannyasis who performed the initiation ceremony.

 

Tamal managed to confuse everything with his lack of understanding and his tendency to want to be the supreme controller in ISKCON.