GBC Never Authorized to Terminate Ritvik System

[bhaktachris]

 

As far as the term "ritvik" is concerned, Srila Prabhupada personally used the term several times.

He also sent letters to some of his senior men instructing to continue to be "ritvik" and develop their preaching in that way.

.

 

I may be a crack pot, but i certainly know that tamal is not and never was one to trust.

 

Show me any where that Prabhupada uses the word "ritvik" please, i don't believe it.

[Beggar]

Like I've said before, I've had association with several non-Iskcon Indian Gaudiya sadhus and they were or are against the rtvik concept. But when you really look at the picture, especially the picture that the administrators deleted with the background info included, you've got to really wonder if the rtvik position doesn't really start to make sense for Iskcon (and maybe it did all along). I can understand why different Gaudiya lines want to keep their holy parampara intact and consider the rtvik ideas to be a threat. But how holy is the Iskcon so-called parampara after November of 1977? Of course there are always exceptions. A few diksa gurus have led exemplery devotional lives, but for the most part its been scandal after scandal and cover up after cover up. Despite all the so-called reforms the circus continues.

[Guruvani]

Srila Prabhupada - instructions to Hansadutta)

 

Now you have got a very good field. Now organize it and it will be a great credit. No one will disturb you there. Make your own field and continue to be rittvik and act on my behalf."

 

 

"You are a suitable person and you can give initiation to those who are ready for it. I have selected you among eleven men as "rittvik" or representative of the acharya, to give initiations, both first and second initiation, on my behalf."

 

 

May 28, 1977 Vridavan, India

Krsna-Balarama Temple

 

 

 

Satsvarupa Goswami:

Then our next question concerns initiations in the future,

particularly at that time when you are no longer with us. We want to know how

first and second initiation(s) would be conducted?

Srila Prabhupada:

Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up

I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acarya(s).

Tamal Krsna Goswami:

Is that called ritvik acarya?

Srila Prabhupada:

"ritvik. Yes".

 

[Guest guest]

that makes me cringe, it is system that is the false doctrine. A priest is a priest is a priest, and real ones only do what their Guru directs them to do. Rtvik was never taught. The revisionist wants us all to know the 60 or so uses of the word "rtvik" in Bhagavatam, however, there is absolutely no teaching of a guru initiation system connected to these words or any other words.

 

The reason that most disciples of Srila Prabhupada to neither the GBC nor the rtvik is because they are two sides of the same coin. One worships TKG with admiration, the other with anger, yet he is their guru system guru. He invented guru systems because him and his buds knew they werent qualified, so if they could push a system, same adulation, following, and funding will be there. And the rtviks, though attracted by anger, fall for the same philosophy, but are left outside the temple of adulation, following, and funding.

 

Both teach the same thing, that an acarya is not necessary to be initiated, only a priest or an elected manager. "Sign right here and we will officially enter you into parampara". The only difference between the disciples of GBC gurus and rtvik gurus is GBC dudes (because of adulation, following and funding, something the rtvik lacks) get to have their pictures on the alters of their followers who would rather hear from any nonsense person rather than hear guru tattwa from Srila Prabhupada.

 

So, Im not anti rtvik nor anti GBC, but I reject wholeheartedly their revisionist philosophy from Tamal and company, the nonsense of "guru initiation systems", called by Srila Krsnadas Kaviraja as eccliastic religiosity.

 

Cheap, cheap, cheap, no matter which side of the coin ya look at.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guruvani]

Srila Bhaktivinode:

 

"Devotees of the Supreme Lord are not controlled by the scriptures since their activities are congenial to Divine Wisdom. When self-realized devotees ordain any new arrangement, this should be accepted as religious code, even if such new arrangements are not found in the scriptural dictums of the previous sages." (Sri Tattva-Sutra)

This is the actual Vaishnava siddhanta.

The attempt to stereotype the concept of Parampara and bottle it up, put it in a cage and hold it ransom by a horde of unfit "gurus" is not what the Vaishnava siddhanta is actually about.

 

The dictums of the great modern sages like Srila Prabhupada are every bit as spiritual as anything the ancient sages of bygone eras have given.

 

This is the siddhanta.

 

Self-realized sages establish religious codes according to the necessity they see.

 

Parampara is not dogma.

It's a lineage of descending knowledge.

There is more than one way to transmit knowledge now that human society is out of the stone age.

 

Apparently, we still have some cavemen around who like to do it the old fashioed way.

[Guest guest]

At the end of this quick post I will paste the record of the personal experience of Ameyatma Das, which reveals that not only was there Ritvik initiations being performed as early as 1975, but they were part of a strategic plan whose initial training stage was launched no later than 1973.

 

His experience has been well corroborated by many others.

 

Guruvani's recent quote from Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur is the key to understanding this.

 

HDG AC Bhaktivedanta Swami was a self-realized soul who ordained a new arrangement. It is not found in the dictums of previous sages, (except the Madhva branch of Vaisnavism, and Sri Ramanuja's line, but not seen strictly in Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya), yet should be accepted as religious code.

 

And by the way, the western popularized notion of a priest is not a complete way of describing what a ritvik is or does. That is an unfair characterization loaded with negative connotation which is meant to trigger emotional reactions to demonize the word ritvik.

 

Each and every argument put forth against the mountain of evidence which describes what Srila Prabhupada actually DID, is simply a result of a desperate attempt by the false ego of a person who deeply desires what they cannot possibly attain, especially with such a challenging attitude.

 

The position of maha-bhagavat acharya.

 

Baby steps kids.

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16108(DOT)com/NoNeedOfChange(DOT)htm

 

Addendum - 1:

 

Initiation Structure Prior To November Of 1977

 

In the ISKCON that Srila Prabhupad set up, and the ISKCON that operated under his direct presence, he was the only initiating guru for all of ISKCON. In the early days he directly performed the initiations. However, as the society grew he set up a structure by which different GBC men would act as rtvik, officiating priests who would carry out the performance of the initiation ceremony on behalf of Srila Prabhupad. This was done most commonly when Srila Prabhupad was in another part of the world.

 

What follows is not given here to support a current rtvik system, but is given to document the system that was set up in Srila Prabhupad’s presence, under his direct guidance and formation.

 

It is important to note here that there were many disciples who were initiated by such rtvik system who never once physically saw their initiating spiritual master. These disciples of Srila Prabhupad actually had no physical contact whatsoever. No direct guidance whatsoever.

 

It is also worthy to note here how far this process of rtvik went.

 

I, the author, will give my own personal experience. I was given first initiation in 1973. Srila Prabhupad presided over the initiation, he handed us our beads. Karandhar was the GBC for LA (where the initiations took place) and was also the leading GBC man at the time. Karandhar told me details about that initiation that he did not share with everyone. In 1973 when I was initiated Karandhar told me that he had chosen the names of the devotees, and not Srila Prabhupad. It was widely accepted that Srila Prabhupad had selected our names. But, Karandhar told me that he was being trained to perform “Rtvik” initiations, in which he, as well as other rtviks, would eventually perform the entire process, from making the final decisions who was qualified (as it was, if a TP or GBC submitted to Srila Prabhupad that a new bhakta was qualified Srila Prabhupad automatically accepted their decision – so, the GBC-TP were already making those decisions), to chanting on the beads (or gayatri), to selecting the devotee name, to actually performing the ceremonial sacrifice. This way, Srila Prabhupad could be totally free of the initiation process and it could be carried out by a system of rtviks. But, Karandhar didn’t feel comfortable telling the devotees that he had selected their names. “He” (not Srila Prabhupad) felt that it was better to mislead the devotees – to make them think that it was Srila Prabhupad who had selected their names. He thought that if devotees found out that Srila Prabhupad had not selected their names they may lose faith. That was “his” thinking, not Srila Prabhupad’s. This was deceitful, in my view.

 

What Karandhar told me was that for my initiation Srila Prabhupad had Karandhar select all the names of the new devotees. And, he sat in Srila Prabhupad’s room with him and the two of them chanted on the beads. Some beads Karandhar chanted on, some Srila Prabhupad would chant on. Karandhar had the list of the new bhakta’s names, and their new devotee names that he had selected. As he handed the chanting beads to Srila Prabhupad to chant on, he would tell Srila Prabhupad the non-devotee name and the devotee name Karandhar had selected (or as he chanted on the beads, he also told Srila Prabhupad the names). Prior to my initiation Karandhar had asked me what Sanskrit devotee name I liked that began with “J”, since my karmi name was James (Jim). The first Sanskrit name I remember reading was Janardhana, so this name came to mind. Karandhar told me that this was the name he, Karandhar, had selected. But, when he handed Srila Prabhupad my japa beads and gave my non-devotee name, Srila Prabhupad took a look at the head bead of my japa beads and said, “Ameyatma”. Karandhar had to ask him the spelling, and wrote this name down in place of Janardhana. So, for my initiation all of the other devotees Karandhar had selected their names, and I was the only one who Srila Prabhupad chose my name himself. It was because of that that Karandhar felt obliged to tell me the whole story. It was significant, and he wanted me to know.

 

(What was on my head bead? Well, I had already learned to read and write Sanskrit on my own prior to becoming a devotee, so I had written, in small letters, Hare Krsna – Hare Rama in Sanskrit on the bead, and Jai Srila Prabhupad. On the top of the bead I wrote something that I thought was a complete name, but, in my ignorance was not, I wrote, “Gopi-Jana” That simply meant “one of the gopis”. What I intended to write was “Gopi-jana-ballabha”, a name for Krsna meaning the Protector of the Gopis. Also, I had attached an ornate earring to the string on the top of the head bead for decoration. Later, I took it off as other devotees told me they felt it was bogus, but Srila Prabhupad had not said anything when he chanted on the beads. I still have and daily use these same beads, and the letters are still visible. I used a regular ink pen, then dipped the whole head bead in clear acrylic gloss to protect it. And for over 31 years the letters are still clearly readable.)

 

Another personal example of the extent of the Rtvik system Srila Prabhupad had set up has to do with my brahman initiation in 1975. Srila Prabhupad would be going to San Francisco first, then LA. All the LA temple would go to SF for the Rathayatra. So, I and all other devotees in LA up for initiation were looking forward to being initiated in San Francisco. But, then, just a week before Ratha Yatra the GBC or others decided there were simply too many devotees up for initiation. It would be too many to handle all at once (however, since then many current ISKCON diksha gurus have had much larger initiations). So, it was decided that a number of devotees would be initiated via Rtvik prior to Srila Prabhupad’s coming. I was selected to be one of those to get my Brahman initiation via Rtvik. The Rtvik priest was Hrdayananda Maharaj. About 10-12 of us took either first or second initiation via that Rtvik ceremony. Because we had been looking forward to direct initiation by Srila Prabhupad, and now were not given that opportunity, Hrdayananda, the GBC, and other devotees had to explain the Rtvik process to us, so we understood it was totally bonafied and was being done under Srila Prabhupad’s direct instruction.

 

What I was told at that time, summer of 1975, was that Srila Prabhupad had authorized about 6-10 of the GBC (and possibly a TP or sannyasi who was not GBC, I can’t recall exactly on that one) to perform Rtvik initiations on his behalf. We were assured that this was 100% bonafied and that even though a Rtvik performed the initiation we would become, without any question, Srila Prabhupad’s direct disciple. We were told that some of the Rtviks had performed the entire process, from deciding who was qualified, to selecting the names, chanting on the beads, performing the ceremonies, etc. And that in those instances, Srila Prabhupad did not have any actual participation at all. In our case, however, we were told that Srila Prabhupad had personally chanted on our gayatri (or beads).

[Beggar]

Prior historical initiation or rtvik, contempory ISKCON needs spiritual guidance either internally or externally. Different factions fight over the meanings of statements in Prabhupada's books, letters and conversations. Very few accept the discredited GBC's interpretations. Consequently 60% of non-ISKCON devotees outside of India are now affiliated with the Gaudiya Matha and it's offshoots.

[mahak]

Srila Prabhupada clearly spoke of his position, saying that he was an old man. Of course, there is absolutely no indication that what I have written is opposed to his actual position as mahabhagavata, but the fact of the matter, all spiritual guides face severe problems from this animal realm. And who is to say that any of this alters his plan or the plan of Lord Nityananda Prabhu. In fact, shastra is full of pastimes of dread, which increase the love of those who care for the martyred victims of the oppressive force of this material world.

Srila Prabhupada was bedridden. He had no facility to go get his own mail, he

was dependent on unscrupulous kali cela for simple things. Do you think he received any letters from disciples who were disclosing horrible activities of many of his leaders? No, he did not. The letters were used to make targets out of his senior disciples who were driven away. Did you receive word that you were specifically invited to vrndavan to experiance his disappearance pastime? No you did not. Did you ever consider the feeling of your spiritual master, having specifically invited all of us, and having none of us show up?

In fact, as I mentioned, I was a member of the tail end of the Independent

Vaisnava council which investigated the "whispers" tape. One of the points I made to the commission is that Srila Prabhupada used the word "poison" to indicate offensive behavior which ruins everything. "I am being poisoned" may also mean that everything he has accomplished has been torn asunder by the criminals who now controlled the movement as well as all his disciples.

Now I am not being weird here, at all. I cite Srila Prabhupadas use of the word

poison in many instances, including in the translation of a song he sung often. I am also not being weird by saying that these eleven controlled all the disciples, because we became dependent on them. And they withheld crucial information from us, therefore, Srila Prabhupada did not control the society, these people did. This is not offensive to Srila Prabhupada, this statement, it is matter of fact. And it is matter of fact that ISKCON has nothing to do with Srila Prabhupada. If one insists everything is under his control, this is what I call weird and extremely offensive. This is saying that Srila Prabhupada sanctions everything that has happened in his name, including all these horrors we have witnessed.

This whole disclosure is to separate Srila Prabhupada from all this horrible

activity. One cannot have it both ways. To say that Guru Krpa, Black Keith, the Nazi, Ms Toyota das, etc, were given everything means that Srila Prabhupada

APPROVED of ALL THEIR WHITE SLAVERY AND HOW THEY ALL TREATED

US, NOT IN THE MID-80S or early 90s, but on July 9, 1977, because these fools did not suddenly change.

 

This is my point, they did not suddenly change, they demanded his property, and he gave it to them. They negotiated for positions over us, and he gave it to them. But what did he give them? On october 5, 1977, he said he had given them everything THEY wanted.

This is where his wonderful protection for us all comes in. He gave them the

rope to hang themselves with. He gave them all they needed so intelligent disciples could see VERY CLEARLY what kind of demons we were dealing with. And he even wrote about it in, not his letters, not memoes to an elite 100, but in his books. He states that his society has been infiltrated with demons in the garb of vaisnavas, and this teaching is just as clear as Lord Jesus warning to all about those who call themselves christians.

"ISKCON may very well go to hell, it is up to my disciple not to follow them

there." This is what he said to me and about 20 other of his disciples outside ISKCON. I have heard of similar statements to others on different occasions, but they are accurate. He was victimized by demons who had no idea of what disciple means. They were negotiating, even some who value J9 say this that he bought off via his signature. But dont you see, these are not disciples. Disciples are not in anxiety about what is gonna happen after disappearance, they are full of instruction and full of sraddha that Krsna will protect. Srila Prabhupada is not in anxiety about what is gonna happen after he leaves, he knows KRSNA will protect. And he has. ISKCON has no spiritual authority whatsoever, it is a shadow of Srila Prabhupadas ISKCON. If one does not accept this fact, and still thinks that ISKCON is connected with Srila

Prabhupada, then explain all the problems away or hide them, or lie and protect those criminals, as has been done. This is the evil we see on the plate, we eat or discard.

 

hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guest guest]

 

Prior historical initiation or rtvik, contempory ISKCON needs spiritual guidance either internally or externally. Different factions fight over the meanings of statements in Prabhupada's books, letters and conversations. Very few accept the discredited GBC's interpretations. Consequently 60% of non-ISKCON devotees outside of India are now affiliated with the Gaudiya Matha and it's offshoots.

 

It is a typical "crisis of faith" sytuation. Very few devotees trust GBC and it's interpretation of our teachings and tradition because of so many lies, mistakes and falldowns of Iskcon's leaders. At least GM gurus have a much better record in that area and they are neither blind nor stupid when it comes to understanding our theology. No wonder the movement of devotees is in one direction only: from Iskcon to GM, practically never in the opposite direction. Thank God they are around because otherwise many, many more devotees would have left the Vaishnavism for good, and Iskcon leaders would have sunk even deeper in their sectarian and naive ways.

[Beggar]

 

 

What Karandhar told me was that for my initiation Srila Prabhupad had Karandhar select all the names of the new devotees. And, he sat in Srila Prabhupad’s room with him and the two of them chanted on the beads. Some beads Karandhar chanted on, some Srila Prabhupad would chant on. Karandhar had the list of the new bhakta’s names, and their new devotee names that he had selected. As he handed the chanting beads to Srila Prabhupad to chant on, he would tell Srila Prabhupad the non-devotee name and the devotee name Karandhar had selected (or as he chanted on the beads, he also told Srila Prabhupad the names).

 

In Boston in July of 1971 Srila Prabhupada initiated about 60 devotees. Karandhar Prabhu was with him. Maybe 10 of the devotees got names beginning with "D" and the other 50 all got names beginning with "S". Immediately intellegent devotees began to surmmise that the names were right out of a book and picked by Prabhupada's secretary. This information spread as a rumor, never confirmed, but everyone just accepted it, for it was quite obvious. The reason they accepted it was that it was clearly Prabhupada's idea. Generally it is said that the rtvik must receive almost the same respect as the guru. That must be be because although the rtvik is not on the same level of the guru, he must be at least just a little below or somewhat above the general devotees in his dedication and realization. In Karandhar's case this proved not to be true in the long run. But Prabhupada had to work with what he was given in respect to the Western devotees. Other Indian Gaudiya gurus that have many Western followers are now in the same boat. I received both of my initiations from Prabhupada by mail. In retrospect, I see it because of my level of sukrti. One devotee I know was also recommended by TPs for initiation by mail. He refused both times and ran to where Srila Prabhupada was, and has amazing stories of Srila Prabhupada, his initiation ceremony, and his association with Srila Prabhupada during those days. If I knew what I know now, I would have done as he did. Fortunately on other occaisions although I was just rank and file, I figured out that if I befriended the older devotees and leaders, I could find a way to get into Prabhupada's room and on walks and it worked. So there are different situations for those of different sukrtis and desires. If you don't have the sense to get the higher association then there is the present ISKCON institution with its "junior" gurus and there is the rtviks. Knowing what I know now, I just don't want to be so far away from pure devotees. Service in separation in there, but its dependent on the desire to be with one's gurudeva, otherwise such separation is without feeling.

[Guest guest]

 

In Boston in July of 1971 Srila Prabhupada initiated about 60 devotees. Karandhar Prabhu was with him. Maybe 10 of the devotees got names beginning with "D" and the other 50 all got names beginning with "S". Immediately intellegent devotees began to surmmise that the names were right out of a book and picked by Prabhupada's secretary. This information spread as a rumor, never confirmed, but everyone just accepted it, for it was quite obvious. The reason they accepted it was that it was clearly Prabhupada's idea.

 

If this is how things worked when Prabhupada was physically present at such initiations, no wonder the system went completely sour when Prabhupada was nonger there. One can only marvel at the tremendous faith Prabhupada had in his disciples, even when they disappointed him again and again... I am not one bit surprised he appointed the magnificent 11 even as at least half of them had a very checkered history in the movement. Just like giving sannyasa to so many obviously unqualified people only to see them fall down one after another - Prabhupada had hoped that somehow, by Krsna's grace, it will work out to the best in the long term. what do we know? Maybe it will...

[suchandra]

 

In Boston in July of 1971 Srila Prabhupada initiated about 60 devotees. Karandhar Prabhu was with him. Maybe 10 of the devotees got names beginning with "D" and the other 50 all got names beginning with "S". Immediately intellegent devotees began to surmmise that the names were right out of a book and picked by Prabhupada's secretary. This information spread as a rumor, never confirmed, but everyone just accepted it, for it was quite obvious. The reason they accepted it was that it was clearly Prabhupada's idea. Generally it is said that the rtvik must receive almost the same respect as the guru. That must be be because although the rtvik is not on the same level of the guru, he must be at least just a little below or somewhat above the general devotees in his dedication and realization. In Karandhar's case this proved not to be true in the long run. But Prabhupada had to work with what he was given in respect to the Western devotees. Other Indian Gaudiya gurus that have many Western followers are now in the same boat. I received both of my initiations from Prabhupada by mail. In retrospect, I see it because of my level of sukrti. One devotee I know was also recommended by TPs for initiation by mail. He refused both times and ran to where Srila Prabhupada was, and has amazing stories of Srila Prabhupada, his initiation ceremony, and his association with Srila Prabhupada during those days. If I knew what I know now, I would have done as he did. Fortunately on other occaisions although I was just rank and file, I figured out that if I befriended the older devotees and leaders, I could find a way to get into Prabhupada's room and on walks and it worked. So there are different situations for those of different sukrtis and desires. If you don't have the sense to get the higher association then there is the present ISKCON institution with its "junior" gurus and there is the rtviks. Knowing what I know now, I just don't want to be so far away from pure devotees. Service in separation in there, but its dependent on the desire to be with one's gurudeva, otherwise such separation is without feeling.

 

Srila Prabhupada once told the story of someone in India taking sannyasa and the son of that man who was also present suddenly started to cry and that man who was about to take sannyasa also started to cry, they both, father and son embraced and together cried even more.

Prabhupada: "Then why he wanted to take sannyasa?"

Separation without feeling is very similiar, material attachment is still more important.

[Guruvani]

 

If this is how things worked when Prabhupada was physically present at such initiations, no wonder the system went completely sour when Prabhupada was nonger there. One can only marvel at the tremendous faith Prabhupada had in his disciples, even when they disappointed him again and again... I am not one bit surprised he appointed the magnificent 11 even as at least half of them had a very checkered history in the movement. Just like giving sannyasa to so many obviously unqualified people only to see them fall down one after another - Prabhupada had hoped that somehow, by Krsna's grace, it will work out to the best in the long term. what do we know? Maybe it will...

 

Srila Prabhupada isn't the only "guru" who gave sannyasa to men who fell down.

When most of them got sannyasa they were practicing a respectable level of sadhana and had some preaching skills, but later, for some reason or other, they fell down.

 

So, to say that Srila Prabhupada gave sannyasa to a bunch of unqualifieds is offensive in my view, because when he gave them sannyasa they were all fixed-up in the regulative principles, chanting their rounds and natural leaders within ISKCON.

 

Srila Prabhupada didn't give sannyasa to a bunch of derelicts.

He gave sannyasa to leading disciples who were natural leaders and helping him move ISKCON forward in the direction of progress.

 

Later, they stumbled as many others have done in the past and many more will do in the future.

 

The men that Srila Prabhupada gave sannyasa to showed lots of promise and were motivators and preachers in ISKCON.

 

To say that Srila Prabhupada was giving out sannyasa to unqualified men is very harsh and rude.

 

Srila Prabhupada needed some Generals and Captains in his army.

He chose the men that were best positioned for that as the most charismatic and dynamic personalities.

 

He did the best he could with what he had to work with.

[theist]

 

If this is how things worked when Prabhupada was physically present at such initiations, no wonder the system went completely sour when Prabhupada was nonger there. One can only marvel at the tremendous faith Prabhupada had in his disciples, even when they disappointed him again and again... I am not one bit surprised he appointed the magnificent 11 even as at least half of them had a very checkered history in the movement. Just like giving sannyasa to so many obviously unqualified people only to see them fall down one after another - Prabhupada had hoped that somehow, by Krsna's grace, it will work out to the best in the long term. what do we know? Maybe it will...

 

Srila Prabhupada understood he was not the Supreme Controller and that Krsna is. He understood that the jivas have free will and in the material world everyone is already infected by the desire to exploit and cheat, and that included his disciples. He knew that Krsna seated in the heart will fulfill everyone's desires to serve or cheat accordingly. He gave the best instructions on how to carry on the parampara in his books and simultaneously he gave the best instructions he could for Iskcon remaining a strong tool for furthering the parampara according to time place circumstance.

 

I never accepted nor will I ever accept that he appointed Gurus. He knew that and taught that Krsna transcendental representative is self effulgent and that Krsna would revel him to the sincere aspirant just like Krsna has been doing since time immemoral. Nothing changed in the transcendental system.

 

If Iskcon would have adhered to the ritvik system with Srila Prabhupada as the sole acarya for Iskcon everyone would things would have been fine. Myself I don't even see the need for a formal initiation ceremony even then. I would like to see Srila Prabhupada accepted as a siksa guru by all new comers. I see that as sufficent simple and not subject to the fraud we have see. People thinking the formality is the necessity is close to the heart of the problems we have seen IMO.

But either way Iskcon should be focused on Srila Prabhupada alone and as for his genuine disciples when when Srila Prabhupada and Krsna internally direct them to accept their own disciples they should leave the fathers house and start their own families.

 

And if they are to fearful (faithless) to do so then that is a sure sign thy have no business acting as if they can take anyone back to Godhead in the first place.

 

In this scenario Iskcon would gradulally recide away having done it's work and new branches that it gave birth to would spring forth and grow and to repeat the process.

 

Even if he knew the wolves were ready to pounce and tear apart his institution what could he do? Knowing Krsna is in controll all he could do was to give the relevant instuction and let things take place as Krsna fulfilled the desires of the souls involved.

 

"Such as it ever was."

 

No change in the way the parampara continues happened or ever will happen. Only changes in the way conditioned souls see the parampara is subject to change.

 

Many great & prominent shaktya-vesa avatars have a few that catch the internal transcendental message and the masses who form around them only to play religion. The masses always concentrated on those making the most hoopla and creating the biggest scene because their minds are in that zone to begin with.

 

But even this is not without it's benefits due to the principle of sukriti. Amidst all the seeming chaos souls are blessed with this sukriti whitch will carry them further to the next level of understanding Krsna consciousness. In this way it is all good irregardless of some important shortcomings.

 

 

Prabhupada had hoped that somehow, by Krsna's grace, it will work out to the best in the long term. what do we know? Maybe it will...

 

Despite this I believe the advanced disciples of Srila Prabhupada have to keep pointing out mistakes these religionists are making as a matter of duty as preachers of the truth.

 

I met someone recently, a disciple of Srila Prabhupada fom the 70's who never left Iskcon and says he only pretends to accept the leadership as being bone fide. IMO this sets a horrible example for new bhaktas. At the very least these individuals have earned a no cooperation status whereby they should simply be ignored and their pronouncements given no weight and seen as a curiousity at best. Who empowers these guys anyway if not Krsna directly? It is the base of people who take them seriously that keep them afloat. So when someone sees this they have the responsibility to withdraw from their influence and seek more stable shelter.

[Guest guest]

 

So, to say that Srila Prabhupada gave sannyasa to a bunch of unqualifieds is offensive in my view, because when he gave them sannyasa they were all fixed-up in the regulative principles, chanting their rounds and natural leaders within ISKCON.

 

Yes... fixed up in the regulative principles like Kirtanananda and Bhavananda? After practicing KC for a whopping couple of years and after previously leading a completely degraded and hedonistic lifestyle? Suuure they were qualified for sannyasa...

 

Even Prabhupada himself regretted his liberal sannyasa policy and in 1977 declared (perhaps in a spontaneous and emotional exchange) that there will be no more sannyasa initiations, admitting his Godbrothers were right on that issue.

[Guest guest]

 

If Iskcon would have adhered to the ritvik system with Srila Prabhupada as the sole acarya for Iskcon everyone would things would have been fine.

 

We are all free to nurture our own illusions...

 

"Things" were NOT fine even when Prabhupada was here! Very serious abuses of all kinds were taking place quite frequently, primarily because the system of power and control was easily lending itself to it - not enough emphasis on systems of check and balances, and completely authoritarian "chain of command" style management. "Zonal acharya" concept was directly derived from the earlier system of authoritarian power structure in Iskcon.

[Guruvani]

 

Yes... fixed up in the regulative principles like Kirtanananda and Bhavananda? After practicing KC for a whopping couple of years and after previously leading a completely degraded and hedonistic lifestyle? Suuure they were qualified for sannyasa...

 

Even Prabhupada himself regretted his liberal sannyasa policy and in 1977 declared (perhaps in a spontaneous and emotional exchange) that there will be no more sannyasa initiations, admitting his Godbrothers were right on that issue.

Don't put words in Srila Prabhupada's mouth.

He never appointed you to speak for him.

He never said anything about admitting his Godbrothers were right.

That's a lie.

 

These Gaudiya Matha Swamis all initiated lots of people who never kept up their vows or kept up any proper guru-seva, so there isn't one of them who is in a position to criticize Srila Prabhupada.

 

Who were they?

They appointed an acharya to the Gaudiya Matha that resulted in the ruination of the Gaudiya Math.

For these Gaudiya Matha sannyasis there could be no greater sin than the destruction of the mission of Srila Saraswati Thakur.

 

A least Srila Prabhupada didn't destroy the mission of his spiritual master like these "godbrothers" did.

 

None of them were in any position to criticise Srila Prabhupada.

 

Their ruination of the Gaudiya Matha and failure to follow the instructions of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur nullified any right they had to criticize Srila Prabhupada who actually accomplished great things in service to his spiritual master while the "bell-ringers" sat around their Mathas waiting for people to drop a coin in the collection box.

[Guruvani]

 

We are all free to nurture our own illusions...

 

"Things" were NOT fine even when Prabhupada was here! Very serious abuses of all kinds were taking place quite frequently, primarily because the system of power and control was easily lending itself to it - not enough emphasis on systems of check and balances, and completely authoritarian "chain of command" style management. "Zonal acharya" concept was directly derived from the earlier system of authoritarian power structure in Iskcon.

 

and you are also free to nurture you illusion that the "whiskered one" was the answer to all of ISKCON's ills, whilst hundreds of his "disciples" have no temples, no training and no service apart from haunting the internet forums and boasting about sadhu-sanga which they maybe get a few minutes a year.

 

Most of the disciples of the "whiskered one" have no temples, no service and no sanga most of the time and all their talk about the need for a physical guru amounts to no more than a few minutes a year.

 

Oh, I guess if you 10 minutes a year of "physical sanga" that makes everything ok?

 

Jackals that live off of the kill of the Lion should never forget who the Lion is and who is the KING OF THE JUNGLE.

 

Srila Prabhupada ki-jaya!!!!

[Guest guest]

 

Don't put words in Srila Prabhupada's mouth.

He never appointed you to speak for him.

He never said anything about admitting his Godbrothers were right.

That's a lie.

 

 

Prabhupada said that this was his Godbrothers' main argument against Westerners' taking sannyasa: they would not be able to maintain the strict vows. He said that a German Godbrother of his had also caused disruption by his intimate dealings with women.

 

"What can I do?" Prabhupada said sadly. "I am working with all third-class men-fools and rascals. Things are going on simply by Krsna's mercy.One who falls from sannyasa," Prabhupada replied, "is called vantasi, one who vomits and then eats it." (SPL 50)

[Guest guest]

 

To say that Srila Prabhupada was giving out sannyasa to unqualified men is very harsh and rude.

 

Nanada Kumar was in a very fallen condition, entangled with wives, ex-wives and....well you get the idea. He had been Prabhupada's servant so he had a close relationship and told him his woes. Prabhupada told him that his only hope was to take sanyassa. So he took sanyassa from Prabhupada and lasted around a month or two.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

the "whiskered one"

How is the situation any different in any of the Gaudiya Math sangas that have Western devotees? Why single out one? There are only a few non-Iskcon temples whose lines originate from Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers is the Western world.

[Guest guest]

 

Most of the disciples of the "whiskered one" have no temples, no service and no sanga most of the time and all their talk about the need for a physical guru amounts to no more than a few minutes a year.

 

Iskcon was always very, very guru-centered, with a tremendous emphasis on guru-seva. Where do you think this desire to associate with a guru comes from? The Bible? It comes directly from reading our books. So dont blame new devotees for trying to get as much contact with their guru as possible. The jet traveling guru model comes from observing and imitating Prabhupada, not Santa Claus.

 

It is a fact that regular association with one's guru is extremely helpful for devotional development - our books say that in lots of places - and no wonder that the new devotees desire what is good for them.

[muralidhar_das]

 

Don't put words in Srila Prabhupada's mouth.

He never appointed you to speak for him.

He never said anything about admitting his Godbrothers were right.

That's a lie.

 

These Gaudiya Matha Swamis all initiated lots of people who never kept up their vows or kept up any proper guru-seva, so there isn't one of them who is in a position to criticize Srila Prabhupada.

 

Who were they?

They appointed an acharya to the Gaudiya Matha that resulted in the ruination of the Gaudiya Math.

For these Gaudiya Matha sannyasis there could be no greater sin than the destruction of the mission of Srila Saraswati Thakur.

 

A least Srila Prabhupada didn't destroy the mission of his spiritual master like these "godbrothers" did.

 

None of them were in any position to criticise Srila Prabhupada.

 

Their ruination of the Gaudiya Matha and failure to follow the instrucions of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur nullified any right they had to criticize Srila Prabhupada who actually accomplished great things in service to his spiritual master while the "bell-ringers" sat around their Mathas waiting for people to drop a coin in the collection box.

Blah blah blah

 

The Gaudiya Math was never ruined. Many Missions have branched out of the original Gaudiya Math and they are doing fine.

 

This idea that Gaudiya Math devotees are simply sitting around waiting for people to drop money into the collection box is ridiculous. Worthy of ridicule.

 

ISKCON has its life member programs and other fundraising ventures that it employs to milk money from Indian people. If there were no Hindus in the West, where would ISKCON get supporters and money from? Western people in countries that were once ruled by the sannyasi kings (maharajas) who had control of the scam-kirtan movement (pick club), the ordinary people who live in those countries think Hare Krsna is a cult. And they are right!

 

Look at the scandals such as Kirtnanananda in Amerika, Bhavananda in Oz, Hamsaduta in Germany, Bhagavan in France, Jayatirtha in UK, Harikesa in USSR... The society these criminals created is a disturbance to the Sankirtan Movement of Mahaprabhu. That society is not "leading" the sankirtan movement. It is instead a degrading movement that has taken the pure ideal of sankirtan and transformed it into a scam-kirtan that generates wages for TP's and bell-ringers whose only achievement in life is that they are able to write the letters ACBSP after their name when they write down their name.

[Guest guest]

 

The society these criminals created is a disturbance to the Sankirtan Movement of Mahaprabhu. That society is not "leading" the sankirtan movement. It is instead a degrading movement that has taken the pure ideal of sankirtan and transformed it into a scam-kirtan that generates wages for TP's and bell-ringers whose only achievement in life is that they are able to write the letters ACBSP after their name when they write down their name.

 

It is sadly true...

[theist]

 

We are all free to nurture our own illusions...

 

"Things" were NOT fine even when Prabhupada was here! Very serious abuses of all kinds were taking place quite frequently, primarily because the system of power and control was easily lending itself to it - not enough emphasis on systems of check and balances, and completely authoritarian "chain of command" style management. "Zonal acharya" concept was directly derived from the earlier system of authoritarian power structure in Iskcon.

 

Fine does mean perfect. This is the material world and to expect a perfect institution to float down from the spirit sky is the pipe dream of fools.

 

Serious abuses yes. Great successes were there also. What i described has nothing to do with an authoritarian system in fact quite the opposite. I described a system where there are no authoritarian gurus running around and what remains are temples doing their programs offering guru puja Krsna aroti, and kirtan. Srila Prabhupada from the very beginning wanted a decentralized system. What I described is a decentralized system.