GBC Never Authorized to Terminate Ritvik System

[theist]

2007 and Gm vs. Iskcon is still thought to be an issue worth taliking about.

 

Sheesh...

[suchandra]

 

 

 

 

[Guruvani]

 

Blah blah blah

 

The Gaudiya Math was never ruined. Many Missions have branched out of the original Gaudiya Math and they are doing fine.

 

This idea that Gaudiya Math devotees are simply sitting around waiting for people to drop money into the collection box is ridiculous. Worthy of ridicule.

 

ISKCON has its life member programs and other fundraising ventures that it employs to milk money from Indian people. If there were no Hindus in the West, where would ISKCON get supporters and money from? Western people in countries that were once ruled by the sannyasi kings (maharajas) who had control of the scam-kirtan movement (pick club), the ordinary people who live in those countries think Hare Krsna is a cult. And they are right!

 

Look at the scandals such as Kirtnanananda in Amerika, Bhavananda in Oz, Hamsaduta in Germany, Bhagavan in France, Jayatirtha in UK, Harikesa in USSR... The society these criminals created is a disturbance to the Sankirtan Movement of Mahaprabhu. That society is not "leading" the sankirtan movement. It is instead a degrading movement that has taken the pure ideal of sankirtan and transformed it into a scam-kirtan that generates wages for TP's and bell-ringers whose only achievement in life is that they are able to write the letters ACBSP after their name when they write down their name.

Well, Srila Prabhupada told that the Godbrothers ruined the Gaudiya Matha and since he was a disciple of Saraswati Thakur and you are not and since Srila Prabhupada was there to see it and you were not and since you get a very colored version of the events from one party line, there is a good chance that maybe your version of events doesn't jive with what Srila Prabhupada told.

 

To say that the Gaudiay Matha wasn't destroyed is simply a look at the brick and mortar.

If you look at the actual facts its quite obvious that his leading diciples failed to execute the orders and the mission of Srila Saraswati Thakur and branched out into splinter groups that dropped the ball on Srila Saraswati Thakur's mission.

 

Maybe you have a different opinion than Srila Prabhupada?

Your opinion is based on second hand information, party politics and an attempt at cover-up.

 

Srila Prabhupada was there and got the chance to observe the events from an objective viewpoint.

 

His opinion was based on the facts.

Your opinion is based on the cover-up over a half century later.

[Guest guest]

 

Well, Srila Prabhupada told that the Godbrothers ruined the Gaudiay Matha and since he was a disciple of Saraswati Thakur and you are not and since Srila Prabhupada was there to see it and you were not and since you get a very colored version of the events from one party line, there is a good chance that maybe your version of events doesn't jive with what Srila Prabhupada told.

 

Srila Prabhupada had his opinion on these historical matters and other people have theirs. It is all behind us - quarrels of long ago none of us was ever part of. Hatfields and McCoys... But it is a hard fact that right now in many areas GM-derived missions outcompete Iskcon in every way - and that is what really counts: PRESENT TENSE.

 

The jury is out on which branches of Lord Caitanya's tree will flourish in the future but Iskcon has some serious handicaps to overcome in this race.

[Beggar]

[muralidhar_das]

 

Well, Srila Prabhupada told that the Godbrothers ruined the Gaudiay Matha and since he was a disciple of Saraswati Thakur and you are not and since Srila Prabhupada was there to see it and you were not and since you get a very colored version of the events from one party line, there is a good chance that maybe your version of events doesn't jive with what Srila Prabhupada told.

 

To say that the Gaudiay Matha wasn't destroyed is simply a look at the brick and mortar.

If you look at the actual facts its quite obvious that his leading diciples failed to execute the orders and the mission of Srila Saraswati Thakur and branched out into splinter groups that dropped the ball on Srila Saraswati Thakur's mission.

 

Maybe you have a different opinion than Srila Prabhupada?

Your opinion is based on second hand information, party politics and an attempt at cover-up.

 

Srila Prabhupada was there and got the chance to observe the events from an objective viewpoint.

 

His opinion was based on the facts.

Your opinion is based on the cover-up over a half century later.

I guess things would be better in the world if everyone followed what they read in Bhagavad gita As It Is.

 

Here is one memorable statement in a purport from Bhagavad gita As It Is (16.7)

 

 

As for behavior, there are many rules and regulations guiding human behavior, such as the Manu-samhita, which is the law of the human race. Even up to today, those who are Hindu follow the Manu-samhita. Laws of inheritance and other legalities are derived from this book. Now, in the Manu-samhita, it is clearly stated that a woman should not be given freedom. That does not mean that women are to be kept as slaves, but they are like children. Children are not given freedom, but that does not mean that they are kept as slaves. The demons have now neglected such injunctions, and they think that women should be given as much freedom as men.

Let's try and introduce the Laws of Manu Samhita into society. That is what Mahaprabhu and Nitai preached when they went from door to door, isn't it?

 

Let's agitate to change society so that women are no longer able to vote. Let's agitate to change society so that the Manu Samhita and Prabhupada's books are the Law Books for humankind for the next 10,000 years.

 

 

"A low-caste man who tries to place himself on the same seat with a man of a high caste, shall be branded on his hip and be banished, or (the king) shall cause his buttock to be gashed." (VIII: 281)

"A Brahmana may confidently seize the goods of (his) Shudra; for, as that Shudra can have no property, his master may take his possessions." (VIII:417)

 

[Beggar]

Beauty and Charm

Where is Krishna? Our real want will be satisfied only by getting the service of Krishna; not by anything else. We want to satisfy the innermost demands of our hearts. We don’t care to know where we are or what is controlling everything, but we really want to quench our thirst for rasa, for madhurya, for sweetness. We must search neither for knowledge nor for the controller of this world; we must search after rasa, anandam, after beauty and charm. ~ from The Search for Sri Krishna by Swami B.R. Sridhar

[Guruvani]

 

Srila Prabhupada had his opinion on these historical matters and other people have theirs. It is all behind us - quarrels of long ago none of us was ever part of. Hatfields and McCoys... But it is a hard fact that right now in many areas GM-derived missions outcompete Iskcon in every way - and that is what really counts: PRESENT TENSE.

 

The jury is out on which branches of Lord Caitanya's tree will flourish in the future but Iskcon has some serious handicaps to overcome in this race.

 

What is very curious though, is that ISKCON, with all it's ills, it's scandals, it's controversies and it's checkered past, is still the world leader in fulfilling the dream and the vision of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur to take Sanatan Dharma to all the peoples of the world.

 

No branch, faction or remnant of the Gaudiya Matha can ever come close to what ISKCON is still accomplishing today with spreading the mission of Sri Caitanya, even in it's crippled condition.

 

Now, thats amazing and a testimony to the greatness of Srila Prabhupada and what he established.

 

So, what does that say, that even a crippled and controversial ISKCON is still dancing circles around any of the Gaudiya Matha splinter groups when it comes to spreading the Sankirtan movement all over the world to fulfill the mission of Mahaprabhu?

 

Even today, ISKCON is the only hope.

These other missions and movements that are feeding off of the conquests of Srila Prabhupada and ISKCON will never be anything more than little fish feeding off of the remnants of the great shark Srila Prabhupada.

[Guruvani]

 

I guess things would be better in the world if everyone followed what they read in Bhagavad gita As It Is.

 

Here is one memorable statement in a purport from Bhagavad gita As It Is (16.7)

 

 

Let's try and introduce the Laws of Manu Samhita into society. That is what Mahaprabhu and Nitai preached when they went from door to door, isn't it?

 

Let's agitate to change society so that women are no longer able to vote. Let's agitate to change society so that the Manu Samhita and Prabhupada's books are the Law Books for humankind for the next 10,000 years.

Thats a little bit hypocritical coming from a guy who follows a branch of Gaudiya Matha that has never given female devotees the dignity and rights that ISKCON women enjoyed.

 

No branch or sect of the Gaudiya Matha has ever given female devotees the respect and dignity that Srila Prabhupada gave the women of ISCKON.

 

Srila Prabhupada took prostitutes off the street and gave them respect and dignity.

 

No faction of the Gaudiya Matha ever treated women with as much concern and care as did ISKCON and Srila Prabhupada.

 

Manu is an avatar of Lord Vishnu, so if you have a problem with Manu-samhita it's because you think you know better than the Manvantar incarnations of the Lord.

 

But then again, you appear to be saying you know better than Srila Prabhupada, Lord Vishnu and who else next?

[Guest guest]

 

Even today, ISKCON is the only hope.

These other missions and movements that are feeding off of the conquests of Srila Prabhupada and ISKCON will never be anything more than little fish feeding off of the remnants of the great shark Srila Prabhupada.

 

Iskcon is certainly not the only hope today. Actually, even many Iskcon devotees lost their hope in Iskcon. I have an almost daily contact with Iskcon devotees and IMO there is very little steam left in that engine. Perhaps when the current fundamentalist leadership dies out the bleeding will stop and healing will begin.

 

Iskcon is also the main source for embarassment and bad propaganda for Lord Caitanya's movement all over the world.

[Guest guest]

 

Manu is an avatar of Lord Vishnu, so if you have a problem with Manu-samhita it's because you think you know better than the Manvantar incarnations of the Lord.

 

Manu Samhita text we have today is at best only about 2000 years old and there have been many changes to it over the centuries. Even MS itself does not claim to be the eternal and unchangeable law of mankind - it is more like a present day Codex of Law that is gradually updated and edited as needed.

[Guruvani]

 

Iskcon is certainly not the only hope today. Actually, even many Iskcon devotees lost their hope in Iskcon. I have an almost daily contact with Iskcon devotees and IMO there is very little steam left in that engine. Perhaps when the current fundamentalist leadership dies out the bleeding will stop and healing will begin.

 

Iskcon is also the main source for embarassment and bad propaganda for Lord Caitanya's movement all over the world.

 

And the great "whiskered one" that initiates devotees all over the world and then leaves them to struggle without a temple, a support structure or any practical service is going to leave behind a fabulous legacy?

 

The results and the reactions of this unstructured and disorganized preaching mission have yet to play out, but when it is all said and done the legacy might turn out to be quite ugly and the fame can quickly turn into infamy.

 

As well, what is future for such institutions as Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math?

 

Who knows how ugly and disintegrated it will become after the passing of Srila Govinda Maharaja.

 

I think it is way too early in the game to be saying the any of the Gaudiya Matha splinter groups are going to end up that much better than ISKCON.

 

Their time will come and the naked truth will be revealed someday.

 

Srila Prabhupada was THE authorized incarnation to take Krishna consciousness all over the Earth.

 

It's too late now for somebody else to make that claim because Srila Prabhupada has already done it and ISKCON shines like a great treasure chest of jewels covered in human excrement.

 

The treasure is still there for those who are willing to dig for it.

[Guruvani]

 

Manu Samhita text we have today is at best only about 2000 years old and there have been many changes to it over the centuries. Even MS itself does not claim to be the eternal and unchangeable law of mankind - it is more like a present day Codex of Law that is gradually updated and edited as needed.

 

Manu Samhita is rules and regulations governing Varnashram Dharma.

 

Whether you like it or not, Varnashrama Dharma was created by the Lord.

 

Manu Samhita was passed down through oral traditions for millions of years.

 

To say that it is 2000 years old is to buy into the modern academic views which are the products of mundane research.

 

Women who followed Manu Samhita got elevated to heavenly planets.

Your liberated modern women are becoming cats and dogs.

 

I guess you think becoming cat and dog is better?

[Guruvani]

 

Which "whiskered one" do you refer to? Narayana Maharaja or Catsvarupa das Goswami?

 

Didn't Mahaprabhu scold Sanatan Goswami for getting a little ragged and letting his whiskers grow?

 

I think he said something about being a gentleman and needing a shave?

[Guest guest]

 

The results and the reactions of this unstructured and disorganized preaching mission have yet to play out, but when it is all said and done the legacy might turn out to be quite ugly and the fame can quickly turn into infamy.

 

 

Establishing a totalitarian organization financially dependent on illegal pick scams has it's drawbacks too. As well as element of infamy.

[Vedesu]

 

These other missions and movements that are feeding off of the conquests of Srila Prabhupada and ISKCON will never be anything more than little fish feeding off of the remnants of the great shark Srila Prabhupada.

Srila Prabhupada was a trailblazer, not a conquistador. Those who follow in the wake of the trail he blazed do so in service to Gauranga, not as "feeders." To consider otherwise is not only offensive to the Saints of today, but to Srila Prabhupada. What good does it do to blaze a trail if no one follows and it just goes to waste? Srila Prabhupada came to plant seeds of devotion, to create sukriti, out of audarya, in the mood of humble service to his Spiritual Master, not in the mood of a king (Palace of Gold reference) or a shark or a Napoleon, or even as the impersonal, unapproachable "man in the limo." It really is amazing to witness the extent of the perverted depictions of Srila Prabhupada by some who claim to be his followers.

[Guest guest]

 

To say that it is 2000 years old is to buy into the modern academic views which are the products of mundane research.

 

Women who followed Manu Samhita got elevated to heavenly planets.

Your liberated modern women are becoming cats and dogs.

 

 

You cant turn back the wheel of time and lets say take away women's right to vote. Unless you want to be like Taliban. Many Iskcon devotees are indeed no better than Talibanis.

 

And if you want to follow Manu samhita because you say it is 100% authoritative, you have to follow ALL it's laws, not just the ones you pick and chose. You would be surprised how liberal that book can be in some areas or how rigid in others, including varnasrama. So if you chose to apply Manu Samhita selectively - ALL laws are subject to re-interpretation, including those governing women.

[Guruvani]

 

Establishing a totalitarian organization financially dependent on illegal pick scams has it's drawbacks too. As well as element of infamy.

 

Srila Saraswati Thakur was the mastermind behind the GBC concept and international preaching efforts.

Srila Prabhupada was the only disciple that was actually able to fulfill this dream and this mission of Srila Saraswati Thakur.

 

None of these Gaudiya Matha splinter groups have any spotless record.

They all have their share of failures and f-ups.

 

For everything that Srila Prabhupada accomlished, you would have to be a fool to not expect a fair share of residual effect.

 

It's just hillarious to hear the cronies of the "bell-ringers" talking crap about ISKCON and Srila Prabhupada, when without Srila Prabhupada they would all still be setting around their Mathas ringing bells and waiting for some hard-working citizen to drop a coin in their collection box.

[Guruvani]

 

You cant turn back the wheel of time and lets say take away women's right to vote. Unless you want to be like Taliban.

 

so, giving women the right to vote helps them go back home back to Godhead?

 

I didn't know that.

 

What does voting have to do with a woman's spiritual welfare?

 

Please help me here, I must have missed something.

[Guest guest]

 

Srila Saraswati Thakur was the mastermind behind the GBC concept and international preaching efforts.

 

Governing bodies can be established in hundreds of different ways - some are very good management systems, others are just terrible flops. Some say that Prabhupada was inspired by the Indian rail system GBC in his approach. We judge such things by the results they produce. Iskcon management record is a dismal failure on most counts.

[Guest guest]

 

so, giving women the right to vote helps them go back home back to Godhead?

 

I didn't know that.

 

What does voting have to do with a woman's spiritual welfare?

 

Please help me here, I must have missed something.

 

Yes, you missed the big one: practicality, and another one: purpose.

 

Precisely because giving women the right to vote has nothing to do with their ability to go back to Godhead - they may keep it without any risk. Manu Samhita is not about going back to to Godhead - it is about keeping law and order in human society - you better write that one down.

[Guruvani]

 

Governing bodies can be established in hundreds of different ways - some are very good management systems, others are just terrible flops. Some say that Prabhupada was inspired by the Indian rail system GBC in his approach. We judge such things by the results they produce. Iskcon management record is a dismal failure on most counts.

 

Why is it a dismal failure?

ISKCON is still accomplishing more than all these Gaudiya Matha splinter groups combined.

Failure?

Thats a heck of an accusation from the Vultures, Jackals and insects that are feeding off of the remnants of the Lion's kill.

 

Hey, everybody can't be the Lion!

I know that.

 

Vultures, jackals and insects all have a purpose in God's great creation.

[muralidhar_das]

 

Srila Saraswati Thakur was the mastermind behind the GBC concept and international preaching efforts.

Srila Prabhupada was the only disciple that was actually able to fulfill this dream and this mission of Srila Saraswati Thakur.

 

None of these Gaudiya Matha splinter groups have any spotless record.

They all have their share of failures and f-ups.

 

For your information...

Srila Bhakti Saranga Goswami Maharaj left his body before Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami went to America. The preaching career of Srila Bhakti Saranga Goswami Maharaj ended before Srila Prabhupada's career began. In the twenty years that Srila Bhakti Saranga Goswami Maharaj was doing the service of preaching and initiating disciples, he opened 24 temples.

[muralidhar_das]

 

 

As well, what is future for such institutions as Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math?

 

Who knows how ugly and disintegrated it will become after the passing of Srila Govinda Maharaja.

 

There will be many Acharyas in the future.

[Guruvani]

 

There will be many Acharyas in the future.

 

Well, whatever.

But, in the classic days of the Gaudiya sampradaya there was a lot of culture and class and the eldermost disciple of the acharya was always given the respect as successor.

 

This modern phenomena of when the acharya leaves then there is a free for all and everyone wants to play guru is really against proper maryada.

 

Accepting the role as acharya was for the classic Vaishnavas something that was an honorable distinction bestowed upon the eldest, senior and most learned Vaishnava of the time.

 

I guess the mission to take KC to the whole world requires lots of gurus, but for me I think the number of "acharyas" running around should be kept to a bare minimum and that only the very elder and distinguished Vaishnavas should be acting in that capacity.

 

Dozens of small time acharyas running around really diminishes how sacred and significant it is to actually have a living acharya on the Earth.

 

The dime-a-dozen guru program is a real turn off to me.

I think it is a fraud and a joke and serious assault on the sacred order of the Maha Bhagavats.

 

At this point in the movement I think it's about time some babajis started to happen and all this jet-set preacher business started to phase out.

 

Once the Gaudiya sect gets a big following around the world somebody has to start to set down and become a real Goswami.

 

Silk clad Swamis jet-setting around the world eating Maha plates is starting to lose it's charm.

We need some bhajananandis too.

 

Srila Prabhupada said that we can water down the milk for cheating the customer, but sooner or later it's ceases to be milk altogether.

 

the movement needs some real ascetics.

 

We have enough soft and spoiled Swamis living in the lap of luxury.

 

Where are the real ascetics?