Seven objections to Shankara’s advaita raised by Sri Ramanujacharya

[Guest guest]

Dear Advaitins,

 

Recently I was contemplating on the topic Avidya and its locus. In

spite of the scriptural statements, honestly speaking, I was not fully

satisfied but still I upheld the view in my recent posts that avidya

is the cause of jiva and antahkaran too. Sometime back when I was

discussing these things with a Swami, he told that Sri Ramanujacharya

had raised some questions on the same topic and Sri Sada-ji had also

mentioned it very briefly in one of the post.

 

Following are the seven objections to Shankara’s advaita raised by Sri

Ramanujacharya. Avidya and its locus, and shankara’s stand on the same

is chosen topic for discussion and he has tried to disprove shankara’s

stand by giving powerful arguments.

 

There are so many learned members in the list and may I ask them to

give replies to the following objections raised by Sri Ramanuja?

 

Please note that this is not to ‘challenge’ shankara’s stand but a

sincere attempt to understand it in a better way.

 

(Quote)

 

Ramanuja picks out what he sees as seven fundamental flaws in the

Advaita philosophy for special attack: he sees them as so fundamental

to the Advaita position that if he is right in identifying them as

involving doctrinal contradictions, then Sankara's entire system

collapses. He argues:

 

I. The nature of Avidya. Avidya must be either real or unreal; there

is no other possibility. But neither of these is possible. If Avidya

is real, non-dualism collapses into dualism. If it is unreal, we are

driven to self-contradiction or infinite regress.

 

II. The incomprehensibility of Avidya. Advaitins claim that Avidya is

neither real nor unreal but incomprehensible, {anirvacaniya.} All

cognition is either of the real or the unreal: the Advaitin claim

flies in the face of experience, and accepting it would call into

question all cognition and render it unsafe.

 

III. The grounds of knowledge of Avidya. No pramana can establish

Avidya in the sense the Advaitin requires. Advaita philosophy presents

Avidya not as a mere lack of knowledge, as something purely negative,

but as an obscuring layer which covers Brahman and is removed by true

Brahma-vidya. Avidya is positive nescience not mere ignorance.

Ramanuja argues that positive nescience is established neither by

perception, nor by inference, nor by scriptural testimony. On the

contrary, Ramanuja argues, all cognition is of the real.

 

IV. The locus of Avidya. Where is the Avidya that gives rise to the

(false) impression of the reality of the perceived world? There are

two possibilities; it could be Brahman's Avidya or the individual

soul's {jiva.} Neither is possible. Brahman is knowledge; Avidya

cannot co-exist as an attribute with a nature utterly incompatible

with it. Nor can the individual soul be the locus of Avidya: the

existence of the individual soul is due to Avidya; this would lead to

a vicious circle.

 

V. Avidya's obscuration of the nature of Brahman. Sankara would have

us believe that the true nature of Brahman is somehow covered-over or

obscured by Avidya. Ramanuja regards this as an absurdity: given that

Advaita claims that Brahman is pure self-luminous consciousness,

obscuration must mean either preventing the origination of this

(impossible since Brahman is eternal) or the destruction of it -

equally absurd.

 

VI. The removal of Avidya by Brahma-vidya. Advaita claims that Avidya

has no beginning, but it is terminated and removed by Brahma-vidya,

the intuition of the reality of Brahman as pure, undifferentiated

consciousness. But Ramanuja denies the existence of undifferentiated

{nirguna} Brahman, arguing that whatever exists has attributes:

Brahman has infinite auspicious attributes. Liberation is a matter of

Divine Grace: no amount of learning or wisdom will deliver us.

 

VII. The removal of Avidya. For the Advaitin, the bondage in which we

dwell before the attainment of Moksa is caused by Maya and Avidya;

knowledge of reality (Brahma-vidya) releases us. Ramanuja, however,

asserts that bondage is real. No kind of knowledge can remove what is

real. On the contrary, knowledge discloses the real; it does not

destroy it. And what exactly is the saving knowledge that delivers us

from bondage to Maya? If it is real then non-duality collapses into

duality; if it is unreal, then we face an utter absurdity.

 

(Unquote)

 

Yours in Sri Ramakrishna,

 

Br. Vinayaka

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Vinayaka" <vinayaka_ns wrote:

>

>

> Dear Advaitins,

>

> Recently I was contemplating on the topic Avidya and its locus. In

> spite of the scriptural statements, honestly speaking, I was not

fully

> satisfied but still I upheld the view in my recent posts that avidya

> is the cause of jiva and antahkaran too. Sometime back when I was

> discussing these things with a Swami, he told that Sri

Ramanujacharya

> had raised some questions on the same topic and Sri Sada-ji had also

> mentioned it very briefly in one of the post.

>

> Following are the seven objections to Shankara’s advaita raised

by Sri

> Ramanujacharya. Avidya and its locus, and shankara’s stand on the

same

> is chosen topic for discussion and he has tried to disprove

shankara’s

> stand by giving powerful arguments.

>

> There are so many learned members in the list and may I ask them to

> give replies to the following objections raised by Sri Ramanuja?

>

> Please note that this is not to ‘challenge’ shankara’s stand

but a

> sincere attempt to understand it in a better way.

>

 

Namaste, Br. Vinayaka-ji

 

Please go to Message No.1517 dated June 5 1999, entitled "On

Ramanuja's Seven Untenables" by Shri Sadananda-ji.

 

PraNAms to all advaitins.

profvk

[Guest guest]

Namaste Vinayakaji,

 

Or you may try get hold of Dr John Grimes' The Seven Great Untenables.

URL: http://www.sundeepbooks.com/servlet/sugetbiblio?bno=000774

 

On 1/20/07, V. Krishnamurthy <profvk > wrote:

> advaitin, "Vinayaka" <vinayaka_ns wrote:

> >

> >

> > Dear Advaitins,

> >

> > Recently I was contemplating on the topic Avidya and its locus. In

> > spite of the scriptural statements, honestly speaking, I was not

> fully

> > satisfied but still I upheld the view in my recent posts that avidya

> > is the cause of jiva and antahkaran too. Sometime back when I was

> > discussing these things with a Swami, he told that Sri

> Ramanujacharya

> > had raised some questions on the same topic and Sri Sada-ji had also

> > mentioned it very briefly in one of the post.

> >

> > Following are the seven objections to Shankara's advaita raised

> by Sri

> > Ramanujacharya. Avidya and its locus, and shankara's stand on the

> same

> > is chosen topic for discussion and he has tried to disprove

> shankara's

> > stand by giving powerful arguments.

> >

> > There are so many learned members in the list and may I ask them to

> > give replies to the following objections raised by Sri Ramanuja?

> >

> > Please note that this is not to 'challenge' shankara's stand

> but a

> > sincere attempt to understand it in a better way.

> >

>

> Namaste, Br. Vinayaka-ji

>

> Please go to Message No.1517 dated June 5 1999, entitled "On

> Ramanuja's Seven Untenables" by Shri Sadananda-ji.

>

> PraNAms to all advaitins.

> profvk

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "K Kathirasan" <brahmasatyam

wrote:

>

> Namaste Vinayakaji,

>

> Or you may try get hold of Dr John Grimes' The Seven Great

Untenables.

> URL: http://www.sundeepbooks.com/servlet/sugetbiblio?bno=000774

 

 

Dear Kathirasan-ji,

 

praNAms,

 

Thank you very much for providing the link.In fact I was trying to

locate the book as it was recomonded by Sada-ji in his post on this

topic.

 

Yours in Sri Ramakrishna,

 

Br. Vinayaka.

[Sriram257@yahoo.co.in]

Hi,

 

Let me answer these objections

 

I. The nature of Avidya. Avidya must be either real or unreal; there

is no other possibility. But neither of these is possible. If Avidya

is real, non-dualism collapses into dualism. If it is unreal, we are

driven to self-contradiction or infinite regress.

 

Ans:The answer to this is the definition of what is reality and what is mithya and what is unreal.

Over here in brief reality is some thing which exists in the past,preset and future, world does not stand that test. Also a counter question may be made "is illusion existent or not", for example the blueness of sky is it existent or not or does the horizon exist, do dreams exist and so on.

 

II. The incomprehensibility of Avidya. Advaitins claim that Avidya is

neither real nor unreal but incomprehensible, {anirvacaniya.} All

cognition is either of the real or the unreal: the Advaitin claim

flies in the face of experience, and accepting it would call into

question all cognition and render it unsafe.

 

Ans:To this objection all perception must be real or unreal which in this case is existent or non-existent, so a counter question may be asked, "Is the perception of a snake on a rope ?" existent or non-existent. Another question may be raised, "when a mud pot is perceived, do we perceive the pot or the mud ?", it you say pot another question may be asked "Does the pot have existence apart from the mud ?" answer is obviously no, "well then when the pot is broken has it gone into non-existence ? " no, "Then where is the pot there is no pot" Ans is that mud is in the form of the pot, pot is just an attribute superimposed on the mud. So is pot as real as the mud, the answer is no since the pot's existence is not with out mud, but the pot is not non-existent and at the same time not real as the mud, hence both the pot and mud are perceived, where the mud is real and the pot is not in this case, hence real and not real are perceived by us.Not with regards to incomprehensible, reason being that all concepts are within Maya and hence Maya is itself inconceivable and hence anirvachaniya.

 

III. The grounds of knowledge of Avidya. No pramana can establish

Avidya in the sense the Advaitin requires. Advaita philosophy presents

Avidya not as a mere lack of knowledge, as something purely negative,

but as an obscuring layer which covers Brahman and is removed by true

Brahma-vidya. Avidya is positive nescience not mere ignorance.

Ramanuja argues that positive nescience is established neither by

perception, nor by inference, nor by scriptural testimony. On the

contrary, Ramanuja argues, all cognition is of the real.

 

Ans:Here the general argument given by them is that instead of Advaita or Dvaita shruti they use some thing called "Ghataka" shruti, but this is not justifiable mainly due to 2 reason

 

1.The ten upanishads accepted as part of the Prasthanatraya do not talk about a god with qualities, if that was the case such a GOD would not be omnipresent

 

2.The Ramanuja's system only holds Vishnu to be supreme but there are actually enough mantras in the vedas that even describes the supremacy of Indra to all other gods and also there is a mantra which says "ekam sat vipra bahudha vadanti"

 

Now if Tatwamasi is justified by Ramanuja what about Aham Brahmasmi where Vamadeva says that he was the Sun and the moon and the devas ?.Now on one part we describe Brahman to be without qualities and on the other side we see Vamadeva making such statements, hence this automatically justifies Maya, if Brahman changed into the world, then Brahman would be perishable and this is not acceptable hence Maya is the explanation

 

Verse from the Brihadaranyaka

 

manasaiva anudrastavyam

neha nana sti kincana,

mftyoh sa mrtyum apnoti

ya iha naneva pasyati.&quot

 

(Trans.)

It is to be perceived by the mind alone,

there is here no multiplicity whatever ;

who sees here as it were " many "

passes from death to death.

That

note multiplicity appears as it were.

 

IV. The locus of Avidya. Where is the Avidya that gives rise to the

(false) impression of the reality of the perceived world? There are

two possibilities; it could be Brahman's Avidya or the individual

soul's {jiva.} Neither is possible. Brahman is knowledge; Avidya

cannot co-exist as an attribute with a nature utterly incompatible

with it. Nor can the individual soul be the locus of Avidya: the

existence of the individual soul is due to Avidya; this would lead to

a vicious circle.

 

Ans:Again the question is Avidya is existent or non-existent,it could be argued that when there is no avidya jeeva is absent and when there is avidya jiva is present so avidya's locus could be in jiva as jiva and avidya are beginingless equally, also it may be argued by them that even though jiva absent in deep sleep why do we see avidya still present, the answer would be that the jiva is only suppressed in deep sleep and not completely absent. OK can Brahman be the locus of avidya yes he can be as in the case of the snake and rope snake analogy, the location of the snake is on the rope but the rope is not hurt by it hence the location of Avidya on brahman has no objection.

 

V. Avidya's obscuration of the nature of Brahman. Sankara would have

us believe that the true nature of Brahman is somehow covered-over or

obscured by Avidya. Ramanuja regards this as an absurdity: given that

Advaita claims that Brahman is pure self-luminous consciousness,

obscuration must mean either preventing the origination of this

(impossible since Brahman is eternal) or the destruction of it -

equally absurd.

 

Ans:My previous ans answers this question, also there are matters for the existence of Avidya or can you call Avidya an existence, when such a question is raised this question it self seems absurd.

 

VI. The removal of Avidya by Brahma-vidya. Advaita claims that Avidya

has no beginning, but it is terminated and removed by Brahma-vidya,

the intuition of the reality of Brahman as pure, undifferentiated

consciousness. But Ramanuja denies the existence of undifferentiated

{nirguna} Brahman, arguing that whatever exists has attributes:

Brahman has infinite auspicious attributes. Liberation is a matter of

Divine Grace: no amount of learning or wisdom will deliver us.

 

Ans:This is not the case, in a dream we see that the dream world is without a beginning, but lets say we see a lion in the dream we immediately wake up, the Brahma-Vidya is like that lion, the lion of the dream when compared to the dream has a beginning and an end but definitely get us out of the dream. This is the same case with Brahma vidya.

 

VII. The removal of Avidya. For the Advaitin, the bondage in which we

dwell before the attainment of Moksa is caused by Maya and Avidya;

knowledge of reality (Brahma-vidya) releases us. Ramanuja, however,

asserts that bondage is real. No kind of knowledge can remove what is

real. On the contrary, knowledge discloses the real; it does not

destroy it. And what exactly is the saving knowledge that delivers us

from bondage to Maya? If it is real then non-duality collapses into

duality; if it is unreal, then we face an utter absurdity.

 

 

Ans:Take the case of the snake and rope is the snake real ?, so what we get is the knowledge of the rope, with it's knowledge the snake disappears, the same case here the world though it does not have a substantial existence is appearing to us like the snake on the rope once the knowledge of Brahman is known the world also disappears, you may wake up and go back to the same dream that you dreamt but that does not make the dream in any way real just because it continues, similar case with the world, even if it is perceived after samadhi it will not be made real.

 

 

It is funny that the followers of Ramanuja state that these objections have not been answered but if I can myself answer this what about the present Acharyas and scholars, they can answer it even better

[sstsml]

Dear Sir,

 

Please read the links:

Avidya

Avidya and Ahankara(Ignorance and Egoism)

Maya and Avidya

 

Here Swami Sivananda explains avidya and its relation to ahankara and maya. Moreover, Sri Ramanuja talks about "vishishtadvaitham" which means "a special case of Advaitham" which is also about a special case of non-duality!

 

Bhagavad Gita 4.22

 

yadṛcchā—out of its own accord; lābha—gain; santuṣṭaḥ—satisfied;

dvandva—duality; atītaḥ—surpassed;vimatsaraḥ—free from envy;

samaḥ—steady; siddhau—in success; asiddhau—failure; ca—also;

kṛtvā—doing; api—although; na—never; nibadhyate—is affected.

He who is satisfied with gain which comes of its own accord, who is free from duality and does not envy, who is steady both in success and failure, is never entangled, although performing actions.

 

 

With warm Regards

 

S. Sreemahalakshm

[Benjamin]

here is the exact June 5th, 1999 post by Kuntimaddi Sadananda , mentioned in the second post here.

-----

THE SEVEN IMPOSSIBLE TENETS

Ramanuja picks out what he sees as seven

fundamental flaws in the Advaita philosophy for special attack: he sees them

as so fundamental to the Advaita position that if he is right in identifying

them as involving doctrinal contradictions, then Shankara's entire system

collapses. He argues:

Objection:

1. The nature of Avidya. Avidya must be either real or unreal; there is no

other

Possibility. But neither of these is possible. If Avidya is real,

non-dualism collapses into dualism. If it is unreal, we are driven to

self-contradiction or infinite regress.

Response:

(a) There are several problems in Ramanuja’s criticism. In Advaita Siddhi,

Madusuudhana saraswati has addressed this more extensively. We had

discussions in the past in advaitin list related to this. “Avidya must be

either real or unreal and there is no other possibility” - is an axiomatic

statement of Ramanuja. Real on the basis of absoluteness or paramaarthika

level fulfills the definition of trikaala abhaadhitam – that which remains

unchanged or non-negated is alone real – this follows from Krishna’s

statement – naasato vidyate bhaavo na bhaavo vidyate sataH – that which

exists can never cease to exist and that which is non-existent can never

come to existence. This statement is valid for gross as well as subtle

matter. Thus anything that changes cannot be real. But it cannot be unreal

either since it appears to exist in the present. Unreal is that which never

existed in the past and has no locus in the present. Like vandyaa putraH –

son of a barren woman. The world, Jagat, does not fulfil either of the

definitions of the real and unreal. Since it undergoes continuos change it

cannot be real but it cannot be unreal since it exists right now in the

waking state. Hence a third term is needed to define the world – which is

neither real and unreal. It is mithya that appears to be real but upon

analysis it is not there. But upon analysis every mithya has to resolve to

its substratum, which is real. Scientifically if something is continuously

changing, then there is some thing fundamental that forms a basis for the

continuously changing things. Hence Ramanuja’s claim that we are driven to

self-contradiction is untenable from ones own experience. – Just like sun

raise and sun set – is it real or unreal – It appears to be real since one

experiences it everyday and it is not real since shaastra (science) says

that sun neither raises nor sets. Hence it is mithya. As long as I have

AJNaana or Avidya – I take the sun raise and sun set as real – but that can

be negated once I have a correct knowledge. Thus Ramanuja is clearly wrong

in his criticism that there is a contradiction in saying the statement

‘avidya is neither real and unreal causes self contradiction and infinite

regression.

(b) Now coming to avidya itself – it is not a positive quantity to be or not

to be. Its presence is inferred by the absence of knowledge. If I have no

knowledge of chemistry, my ignorance of chemistry is inferred. Knowledge is

positive – either in terms of information or facts in my memory or logical

application of the information in the memory. When I gained the knowledge

of chemistry, I say I have lost my ignorance of chemistry. If ignorance is

real then I can never loose it. Inquiry into ignorance is itself a useless

inquiry, since it is not a positive quantity to inquire about. When did the

ignorance began? – this question itself is invalid question and hence it is

said that it is anivervachaniiyam – inexplainable . It is anaadi –

beginningless. If it has beginning then before that I was knowledgeable.

Ignorance can be replaced by knowledge but not vice versa. Hence it is

anaadi yet can have an end when the knowledge dawns on me. For that reason

only it is peculiar type does not belong to the nature of Brahman. For the

Jagat, the world, there is locus, which is Brahman, which is the substratum,

or real on which the changes takes place. For ignorance there is not

absolute locus to say it is centered on this. Hence it is called

anirvacahaniiyam. It appears to be centered on Jeeva who himself is the

product of avidya. But Jeeva has his own locus and that is Brahman while

the ignorance has only apparent locus that is Jeeva, who takes unreal as

real. That is what is the term delusion implies. Whatever one imagines

oneself in delusion is not real but for the one who is in delusion what he

imagines is real. Hence reality is based on the Reference State – hence it

is at the vyaavahaarika or transactions level, the relative realties are

established. From absolute point only Brahman alone is real. Everything

else is relatively real.

II. The incomprehensibility of Avidya. Advaitins claim that Avidya is

neither real nor unreal but incomprehensible, {anirvacaniiyam.} All

cognition is either of the real or the unreal: the Advaitin claim flies in

the face of experience, and accepting it would call into question all

cognition and render it unsafe.

It is the extension of the same arguments but attacking the anivarchaniiyam

aspect. Ramanuja’s statement that all cognitions are either of the real or

unreal is absolutely wrong. In fact it is the other way around. Only

Brahman alone is real, and Brahman cannot be cognized in the true sense of

the word. We have already established that there is something called

mithya, which appears to be real, but upon inquiry what appears to be real

is not real, but only the substratum that supports the appearance is real.

Sun raise and sun set is one example. Bending of the pencil immersed half

way in water appears to be real, but bending is not real. Scientific

investigations aim at resolving these apparent experiences by appropriate

inquiry. Right type of inquiry leads to discoveries that illumine the

truths underlying each of the experiences. There are truly anirvachaniiyam

that is accepted even by Ramanuja and others – For example- which is the

beginning – chicken or egg. Or what is the cause and what is the effect.

Since ignorance is anaadi which Ramanuja also agrees, who has the ignorance

is the fundamental question that is left to be answered by both systems of

philosophy. (in the case of Ramanuja ignorance that is anaadi belongs to

Jeevaas not knowing their aadhaaratvam or dependence on the Lord – that is

due to delusion which is also Maya. His explanation is not much different.

How and when the Jeevaas possessed this ignorance – he has to resort to the

same answer too – it is anirvachaniiyam.

In Advaita, ignorance which is the cause for Jiiva to feel that he is Jiiva

is locussed on Jiiva. It is like chicken and egg situation – anyonya

ashraya – Jiiva has avidya and avidya is the cause of Jiiva. This cannot be

resolved by intellectual analysis since intellect itself is the product of

avidya. Hence it is anirvachaniiyam. Only way to resolve this is to

transcend the cause-effect relations ships or transcend the time where all

these concepts take birth. The anirvachaniiyam aspect in Ramanuja is buried

in the disguise of Paramaatma leela. Why Lord wants to play at Jive’s

expense is anirvachaniiyam, since He is the Lord and He cannot be

questioned. Unquestionable surrenderence is only the upaaya or the means

for moksha or liberation.

In addition, there are two ways to answer the central objection of Ramanuja.

First, avidya is not positive quantity to be classified as real or unreal.

It can only be inferred by lack of knowledge, which is positive. Since it

does not come under real or unreal it is anivervachaniiyam. Second,

ignorance by definition is incomprehensible. If it is comprehensible then

it is no more ignorance. In contrast to what Ramanuja claims the

incomprehensibility of avidya “flies in the face of experience, and

accepting it would call into question all cognition and render it unsafe”,

itself is baseless. One can only cognize knowledge of the object or lack of

object. I know chemistry or I do not know chemistry both are facts to be

cognized and recognized. In the cognition of the first, the knowledge of

chemistry is cognized and in the cognition of the second the absence of the

knowledge of chemistry is cognized. Anirvachaniiyam comes only to answer

the why's and how's and when's etc – or inquiry into the nature of

ignorance itself. This part of the problem as discussed above is common in

Advaita and vishishhTaadviata.

Objection:

III. The grounds of knowledge of Avidya. No pramaaNa can establish Avidya in

the sense the Advaitin requires. Advaita philosophy presents Avidya not as a

mere lack of knowledge, as something purely negative, but as an obscuring

layer which covers Brahman and is removed by true Brahma-vidya. Avidya is

positive nescience not mere ignorance. Ramanuja argues that positive

nescience is established neither by perception, nor by inference, nor by

scriptural testimony. On the contrary, Ramanuja argues, all cognition is of

the real.

Response: PramaaNa is the means of knowledge. Knowledge is required to

eliminate the ignorance. To establish that ones is ignorant of something

one need not have a pramaaNa. That I don’t know chemistry or I do not know

gaagaabuubu is self-evident – in fact what is self-evident is the lack of

knowledge of chemistry or lack of knowledge of gagaabuubu. What pramaaNa is

needed to established to myself that I am ignorant of chemistry or

gaagaabuubu. For others to establish that I am ignorant of chemistry or

gaagaabuubu then pramaaNa or means of testing is required. But to establish

for myself that I am ignorant no pramaaNa is required.

PramaaNa is required to establish the fact which may contradict my own day

to day experience. No one has to teach me that I am the body, I am the mind

or I am the intellect. But pramaaNa is required to establish that I am not

the body, nor the mind and not the intellect. Avidya is established

automatically when the shaastra contradicts my direct experience and reveals

the truth. In the face of the truth, ignorance that I had, falls off in

spite of my day to day experience. That sun neither raises nor sets is

established through pramaaNa in spite of my day to day experience of sun

raise and sun set. Essentially I don’t need shaastra as a pramaaNa to

establish that I am ignorant. What shaastra can do is to illumine the

knowledge which when it dawns on me, the ignorance that I had is eliminated.

What establishes the fact that sun raises in the morning and sets in the

evening – that is direct perception. Hence experiences are basis for the

ignorance too. But I may not perceive that I am ignorant till the knowledge

dawn on me. PramaaNa is required to establish true knowledge. Ignorance

cannot cover Brahman or much less anything. It is not a positive thing to

cover something. But Advaita provides a rational explanation of the cause

of not-seeing the truth as truth. What covers my knowledge that there is

really no sun raise and no sun set. First, direct experience of the sun

raise and sun set, and second the lack of proper understanding of that

experience. We say ignorance as though covers the knowledge but truth is

that ignorance is not a positive to cover anything. Ramanuja’s criticism of

Advaita is therefore baseless. In fact that there is avidya that is

covering the truth itself is only an explanation for the apparent facts.

The truth is, there is nothing other than Brahman. Everything that is seen

or appears to be there is only mithya including the concepts to explain that

which is not there. Explanation of Maya and avidya applies to Maya and

avidya too.

Objection:

IV. The locus of Avidya. Where is the Avidya that gives rise to the(false)

impression of the reality of the perceived world? There are two

possibilities; it could be Brahman's Avidya or the individual soul's

{Jiiva.} Neither is possible. Brahman is knowledge; Avidya cannot co-exist

as an attribute with a nature utterly incompatible with it. Nor can the

individual soul be the locus of Avidya: the existence of the individual soul

is due to Avidya; this would lead to a vicious circle.

Response: This aspect is already covered in the first. This is the chicken

and egg situation. Locus of avidya is not Brahman but jiiva who is the

product of avidya. Avidya is beginning less from Jiiva’s point since

beginning and end are concepts within time and time itself is in the mind of

jiiva. Hence from Jiiva’s point, avidya arises before time is

conceptualized and time is conceptualized only after the first two thoughts.

Hence to ask whether it is Jiiva first or avidya first, is untenable

question since before and after and cause and effects are within the realm

of time. Scripture can provide some answers to this.

“Existence-consciousness alone was there in the beginning and it is one

without a second. He saw – and decided to become many” – Here is the origin

of Iswara from the primordial cause. Creation begins with Iswara who has no

ignorance. Ignorance starts with the identification with the created as I

am this and this. How does it happen is unexplainable since the

explanations are within the realm of intellect.

Who is the locus for avidya – When the creation began, the locus of Maya is

Iswara and after the creation has taken place misunderstanding that the

creation is real is due to delusion and how that happens is anirvacaniiyam.

The locus of that ignorance is jiiva. Ignorance is eliminated form Jiiva

when the knowledge dawns on him. Avidya is not attribute for existence or

non-existence. Besides Brahman is not opposite to avidya. In fact that

there is avidya or ignorance is known as knowledge only by the illumination

of the avidya by consciousness which is Brahman. It is like seeing the

darkness. I cannot see anything in pitch dark. But that it is pitch dark –

that I can see. In what light I can see that it is pitch dark – that light

is not opposite to darkness since it can illumine darkness without

destroying it, as I say that I can see that it is dark. Can I say darkness

is covering the objects and that is the reason I cannot see. Darkness is

not some positive thing to cover and uncover. Lack of enough light to

illumine the objects for human equipment to see is the problem. But even in

pitch darkness, I know I am there. Since I am self-luminous or

self-consciousness entity. I don’t need any pramaaNa to prove that I exist

and I am consciousness. Nothing can cover me.

V. Avidya's obscuration of the nature of Brahman. Shankara would have us

believe that the true nature of Brahman is somehow covered-over or obscured

by Avidya. Ramanuja regards this as an absurdity: given that Advaita claims

that Brahman is pure self-luminous consciousness, obscuration must mean

either preventing the origination of this(impossible since Brahman is

eternal) or the destruction of it -equally absurd.

Response – I think Ramanuja haphazardly criticizes the Advaita without

correct understanding of the import of Advaita. Bhagavaan Shankara does not

say that Brahman is covered by avidya. But for Jiiva the Brahman is

appeared to be covered since he does not know the truth. Shankara gives a

common experience to illustrate the point. Just like dark clouds covering

the sun – In principle clouds cannot cover the sun since he is so large

compared to the size of the earth and the size of the clouds. And clouds

exists because of the sun and the clouds that are covering the sun is seen

only because of the sun – without the Sun, one cannot even see the clouds

that are covering the sun. In the light of consciousness only the ignorance

is known. If it is able to illumine the ignorance, then how can it be

covered. Brahman is ekameva advitiiyam – one without a second and there is

nothing that can cover it. Luminosity or self-luminosity of Brahman is not

compromised any way since it is only in the light of that consciousness only

the ignorance also is known. Obstruction is also a mithya since it is not

real since it can be destroyed. It is apparent but appears to be real to

the one who is deluded by the appearance. Hence intrinsic nature of

luminous Brahman is not compromised just as clouds cannot cover the

intrinsic nature of the luminous Sun.

Objection:

VI. The removal of Avidya by Brahma-vidya. Advaita claims that Avidya has no

beginning, but it is terminated and removed by Brahma-vidya, the intuition

of the reality of Brahman as pure, undifferentiated consciousness. But

Ramanuja denies the existence of undifferentiated{nirguna} Brahman, arguing

that whatever exists has attributes: Brahman has infinite auspicious

attributes. Liberation is a matter of Divine Grace: no amount of learning or

wisdom will deliver us.

Response:

First, Ramanuja’s statement is not a criticism of Advaita but proposition of

his axiomatic statements of the nature of the reality. His proposition that

Brahman is not nirguNa contradicts not only Advaita but also scriptural

statements. He provides a narrower meaning of nirguNa that He is without

any durguNa. –

“ nirguNo, nishkRio, nityo, nirvikalpo niranjanaH” says the shruthi.

“Whatever exists should have attributes” is a declarative statement of

Ramanuja. This is applicable to only objects – and is true since objects

have naama, ruupa and guNa. But objects are jadam they are not swayam

prakaashatvam – some thing else has to illumine the objects- but for

self-luminous self, nirguNa is absolutely valid statement. The reasoning is

simple. Knowledge of the objects occurs by pratyaksha or anumaana etc

through the knowledge of the guNaas only. They are known through the mind

and intellect since the mind and intellect can only grasp that which have

guNaas. To that extent only Ramanuja is right. But that which is

guNaatiita that which is beyond the intellect, it cannot be comprehended by

any thing. It is known only because it is self-luminous and no pramaaNa is

required to establish that.

‘Liberation is a matter of divine grace’ – that Advaita does not contradict.

In fact liberation occurs through knowledge which is not purusha tantra –

it is by divine grace only “Brahman can be known” – or “aham Brahmaasmi can

be realized. It is not knowing an object – since when one knows the object,

one does not become an object. But knowing Brahman is becoming Brahman –

brahmavit brahaiva bhavati – is the shruti. Hence it is not objective

knowledge but subjective recognition or realization. As long as I have a

notion (ego) that I am different from Brahman, I can never know Brahman.

Only complete surrenderence of ones ego leads to the true knowledge of

oneself. But even in Ramanuja’s teaching, it is the knowledge alone that

brings moksha. It is the knowledge of ones complete dependence on the Lord

which happens when one completely surrenders ones ego. Other than the fact

that the nature of the moksha is different in the two doctrines, but the

means is the same. In both cases bhakti leeds to Jnaana – but is that Jnaana

is different in the two doctrines. In one it is aham Brahmaasmi is the

knowledge in the other I am eternal servent of the Lord. Both are gained by

complete surrenderence to the Lord which can happen only under bhakti.

Hence Shankara defines bhakti in VivekachuuDaamani as ‘ moksha kaaraNa

saamaagrayam bhaktireva gariiyasi| atmaanubhava sandhaanam

bhaktirityabhidiiyate’. Of all paths for moksha bhati is the supreme and

ones establishment of oneself in his own self is the said to be true bhakti.

Objection:

VII. The removal of Avidya. For the Advaitin, the bondage in which wedwell

before the attainment of Moksa is caused by Maya and Avidya;knowledge of

reality (Brahma-vidya) releases us. Ramanuja, however,asserts that bondage

is real. No kind of knowledge can remove what is real. On the contrary,

knowledge discloses the real; it does not destroy it. And what exactly is

the saving knowledge that delivers us from bondage to Maya? If it is real

then non-duality collapses into duality; if it is unreal, then we face an

utter absurdity.

Response:

The reality of avidya is already touched upon in the earlier objections and

already shown that avidya does not come under either real and or unreal.

The objection is based on Ramanuja propositions and based on these

propositions he rules out Advaita. Even in Advaita, knowledge discloses the

reality of oneself and the reality of the world - real is true and that

reality is the dismissal of ones own notions about oneself as I am this and

that which are objects and re-educating oneself that I am the

sat-chit-aananda which is ekameva advitiiyam. All are in me and I am in all

of them, yet I am different from all of them is the knowledge that Krishna

emphasizes. Sarva bhuutastam aatmaanam sarva bhuutaanica atmani – All are

in me and I am in all of them- is the teaching.

My above comments are in no disrespect to Shree Bhagavaan Ramanuja. Through

his criticisms he bought out the essential aspects of Advaita too for those

who are keen in understanding the true import of Advaita. I strongly

recommend everyone to study thoroughly Bhagavaan Ramanuja’s criticism of

Advaita in his Shree Bhaasya. One has to have an open mind to investigate

thoroughly the objections and the responses. Ultimately the truth is beyond

intellectual comprehension and that is agreed upon by both systems of

philosophy. It does not matter what Ramanuja says or Shankara says – it is

all objective knowledge of the nature of the reality. Conclusion before

experimentation is unscientific. Given the intellectual convictions as a

basis, one has to discover the truth by one self in oneself as oneself. –

dhyanena atmani pasyanti kechid atmaanam atmanaa – says Krishna – by means

of meditation on the reality one discovers oneself in oneself by oneself.

---

hope this helps!

Benjamin

[Iam You]

In reply to the 7 "untenables"

 

I. The nature of Avidya. Avidya must be either real or unreal

This is like asking whether a dream is real or unreal. You can answer both real and unreal. It is real in that it exists as a real illusion. The dreamer is real and the dream is real, but without the dreamer the dream could not exist. So in truth the dream has no reality without the dreamer.

II. The incomprehensibility of Avidya.

All thought is illusion. Thought appears in the dreamer and appears to the dreamer as thoughts of the dream character, but the dreamer is not thinking and nor is the dream character. The dream is simply appearing fully formed in the dreamer. Thought is not to be trusted because it is illusory. Thinking is not knowing, and knowing is not thinking. You are the knowing.

III. The grounds of knowledge of Avidya.

Avidya is not well described as "an obscuring layer which covers Brahman", but it is a fair description. The idea "I am the thinker of thoughts" appears in Brahman, and Brahman is mesmerised with the thought of being the thinker and doer for a time.

Then the daydream of being a thinker and doer ends, and this end of the daydream can SEEM like the lifting of a veil or the removing of a cover. In truth all that happened was that the 'content' appearing in Brahman changed, like it continually does :-)

IV. The locus of Avidya.

There is no locus. Everything is Brahman and Brahman is nowhere. Brahman has no locus. Time and space are concepts appearing in Brahman.

Avidya is a passing appearance in Brahman. There is no such thing as an individual soul. There is only Brahman. The individual soul is just an idea born of the thought "I am the thinker of thoughts". It is a daydream about being the thinker of thoughts and the doer of doing.

V. Avidya's obscuration of the nature of Brahman.

Avidya obscures the nature of Brahman in the same way that a daydream obscures the daydreamers true nature. You may daydream of robbing a bank when your true nature is that you would never ever do such a thing.

Another way is to look at it like this. Sometimes you can be watching a movie and become so engrossed in it that you 'daydream' yourself to be the hero in the movie. When the hero is in danger your own heart beats as if it was you in danger. In this case your daydream has obscured your true nature because you are not a hero, you are just a timid weakling ;-)

The removal of Avidya by Brahma-vidya

It is not the removal of Avidya but it is the end of Avidya in a way.

Consider the analogy of a lucid dream. The dreamer awakens to the dream, and realises that he is asleep on his bed, and that this is a dream. The dream continues but now the dreamer is aware that this is a dream.

Brahma-vidya is like lucid dreaming. The dream continues, but because it is now known to be a dream, the dream is over in a way, because the dream is now a lucid one.

VII. The removal of Avidya.

The removal of bondage refers to the bondage of the dream. Once the dreamer realises that he is dreaming he no longer suffers any of the fears or pains of the dream. This is release from the bondage of suffering.

[Sriram257@yahoo.co.in]

Firstly I would like to ask one thing , we see all these objections to philosophical schools to Dvaita and Vishistadvaita on Advaita, I can take a bet that they can never answer the questions put to them by even kids. Suppose they say God created the world question will be, why are people suffering in the world he created ? Ans : It is their Karma, Is God powerless to stop Karma ? , if he is not why does he not stop the suffering, since he is omnipotent. Can an of these schools give a satisfactory answer. I am sorry to say that any one who has even an iota of intelligence will swallow the ideas these schools provide. If their theories are logically tested, they won't stand the test of logic. A person who questions will never be interested in the ideas such schools of thought provide, no matter how ever well argued may be these systems, still a person who is interested in investigation will not be interested in such schools. Instead such a person will see how much truth is their in the statements such schools make. Please note that most of the population is emotional and only emotional people will swallow such ideas to get some solace. Such schools are nothing but solace peddlers and nothing else.

[Ravindran Kesavan]

Ramanuja uses the "either- or" thinking of the classical logic (technically called the Principle of excluded middle) in many of his criticisms. Example : "Either avida is real or it is unreal". But this either-or thinking is flawed and gotten rid of in many-valued logic fuzzy logic and quantum logic.

 

Advida cannot be neatly classified as real or unreal. - it depends on the context and level; at one level it is real at another at is not real.To understand this level difference let use a familiar example of Dream. Is dream real or unreal?

If we rephrase this question to mean , Do dream occur? (did I really dream of a unicorn?) then the answer is- yes. If we rephrase the same question to mean what one sees in the dream is real? ( does the unicorn I saw is real?) then the answer is- no.

So is the dream real or unreal? Both.

 

Avidya is not neatly real or unreal. You need a third category of "indeterminate" or "Undecidable". Bi-valued logic fails here. One needs a tri-valued logic.

 

Regards,

K.Ravindran

[hinduism♥krishna]

 

Hi,

 

Let me answer these objections

 

I. The nature of Avidya. Avidya must be either real or unreal; there

is no other possibility. But neither of these is possible. If Avidya

is real, non-dualism collapses into dualism. If it is unreal, we are

driven to self-contradiction or infinite regress.

 

Ans:The answer to this is the definition of what is reality and what is mithya and what is unreal.

Over here in brief reality is some thing which exists in the past,preset and future, world does not stand that test. Also a counter question may be made "is illusion existent or not", for example the blueness of sky is it existent or not or does the horizon exist, do dreams exist and so on.

 

II. The incomprehensibility of Avidya. Advaitins claim that Avidya is

neither real nor unreal but incomprehensible, {anirvacaniya.} All

cognition is either of the real or the unreal: the Advaitin claim

flies in the face of experience, and accepting it would call into

question all cognition and render it unsafe.

 

Ans:To this objection all perception must be real or unreal which in this case is existent or non-existent, so a counter question may be asked, "Is the perception of a snake on a rope ?" existent or non-existent. Another question may be raised, "when a mud pot is perceived, do we perceive the pot or the mud ?", it you say pot another question may be asked "Does the pot have existence apart from the mud ?" answer is obviously no, "well then when the pot is broken has it gone into non-existence ? " no, "Then where is the pot there is no pot" Ans is that mud is in the form of the pot, pot is just an attribute superimposed on the mud. So is pot as real as the mud, the answer is no since the pot's existence is not with out mud, but the pot is not non-existent and at the same time not real as the mud, hence both the pot and mud are perceived, where the mud is real and the pot is not in this case, hence real and not real are perceived by us.Not with regards to incomprehensible, reason being that all concepts are within Maya and hence Maya is itself inconceivable and hence anirvachaniya.

 

III. The grounds of knowledge of Avidya. No pramana can establish

Avidya in the sense the Advaitin requires. Advaita philosophy presents

Avidya not as a mere lack of knowledge, as something purely negative,

but as an obscuring layer which covers Brahman and is removed by true

Brahma-vidya. Avidya is positive nescience not mere ignorance.

Ramanuja argues that positive nescience is established neither by

perception, nor by inference, nor by scriptural testimony. On the

contrary, Ramanuja argues, all cognition is of the real.

 

Ans:Here the general argument given by them is that instead of Advaita or Dvaita shruti they use some thing called "Ghataka" shruti, but this is not justifiable mainly due to 2 reason

 

1.The ten upanishads accepted as part of the Prasthanatraya do not talk about a god with qualities, if that was the case such a GOD would not be omnipresent

 

2.The Ramanuja's system only holds Vishnu to be supreme but there are actually enough mantras in the vedas that even describes the supremacy of Indra to all other gods and also there is a mantra which says "ekam sat vipra bahudha vadanti"

 

Now if Tatwamasi is justified by Ramanuja what about Aham Brahmasmi where Vamadeva says that he was the Sun and the moon and the devas ?.Now on one part we describe Brahman to be without qualities and on the other side we see Vamadeva making such statements, hence this automatically justifies Maya, if Brahman changed into the world, then Brahman would be perishable and this is not acceptable hence Maya is the explanation

 

Verse from the Brihadaranyaka

 

manasaiva anudrastavyam

neha nana sti kincana,

mftyoh sa mrtyum apnoti

ya iha naneva pasyati."

 

(Trans.)

It is to be perceived by the mind alone,

there is here no multiplicity whatever ;

who sees here as it were " many "

passes from death to death.

That

note multiplicity appears as it were.

 

IV. The locus of Avidya. Where is the Avidya that gives rise to the

(false) impression of the reality of the perceived world? There are

two possibilities; it could be Brahman's Avidya or the individual

soul's {jiva.} Neither is possible. Brahman is knowledge; Avidya

cannot co-exist as an attribute with a nature utterly incompatible

with it. Nor can the individual soul be the locus of Avidya: the

existence of the individual soul is due to Avidya; this would lead to

a vicious circle.

 

Ans:Again the question is Avidya is existent or non-existent,it could be argued that when there is no avidya jeeva is absent and when there is avidya jiva is present so avidya's locus could be in jiva as jiva and avidya are beginingless equally, also it may be argued by them that even though jiva absent in deep sleep why do we see avidya still present, the answer would be that the jiva is only suppressed in deep sleep and not completely absent. OK can Brahman be the locus of avidya yes he can be as in the case of the snake and rope snake analogy, the location of the snake is on the rope but the rope is not hurt by it hence the location of Avidya on brahman has no objection.

 

V. Avidya's obscuration of the nature of Brahman. Sankara would have

us believe that the true nature of Brahman is somehow covered-over or

obscured by Avidya. Ramanuja regards this as an absurdity: given that

Advaita claims that Brahman is pure self-luminous consciousness,

obscuration must mean either preventing the origination of this

(impossible since Brahman is eternal) or the destruction of it -

equally absurd.

 

Ans:My previous ans answers this question, also there are matters for the existence of Avidya or can you call Avidya an existence, when such a question is raised this question it self seems absurd.

 

VI. The removal of Avidya by Brahma-vidya. Advaita claims that Avidya

has no beginning, but it is terminated and removed by Brahma-vidya,

the intuition of the reality of Brahman as pure, undifferentiated

consciousness. But Ramanuja denies the existence of undifferentiated

{nirguna} Brahman, arguing that whatever exists has attributes:

Brahman has infinite auspicious attributes. Liberation is a matter of

Divine Grace: no amount of learning or wisdom will deliver us.

 

Ans:This is not the case, in a dream we see that the dream world is without a beginning, but lets say we see a lion in the dream we immediately wake up, the Brahma-Vidya is like that lion, the lion of the dream when compared to the dream has a beginning and an end but definitely get us out of the dream. This is the same case with Brahma vidya.

 

VII. The removal of Avidya. For the Advaitin, the bondage in which we

dwell before the attainment of Moksa is caused by Maya and Avidya;

knowledge of reality (Brahma-vidya) releases us. Ramanuja, however,

asserts that bondage is real. No kind of knowledge can remove what is

real. On the contrary, knowledge discloses the real; it does not

destroy it. And what exactly is the saving knowledge that delivers us

from bondage to Maya? If it is real then non-duality collapses into

duality; if it is unreal, then we face an utter absurdity.

 

 

Ans:Take the case of the snake and rope is the snake real ?, so what we get is the knowledge of the rope, with it's knowledge the snake disappears, the same case here the world though it does not have a substantial existence is appearing to us like the snake on the rope once the knowledge of Brahman is known the world also disappears, you may wake up and go back to the same dream that you dreamt but that does not make the dream in any way real just because it continues, similar case with the world, even if it is perceived after samadhi it will not be made real.

 

 

It is funny that the followers of Ramanuja state that these objections have not been answered but if I can myself answer this what about the present Acharyas and scholars, they can answer it even better

 

Mater stroke ! Nicely explained !

 

No one can offend advaita . Because it has very strong proofs from shastras .

 

Instead Dvaitian get silent when advaitians quote evidences from scriptures .

 

I challenge dvaitians to defeat my proofs from Bhagavata Purana . I have proved there that krishna was Advaitian .

 

Here is a link : 

[Guest srivathsa]

How do you prove that krishna is paripurna in vishistaadvaita?.....
because krishna only said that he is paripurna in bhagavath geetha...

but ,according to vishistaadvaita...we are brahman,at the same time ,we are not paripurna...similar case applies to krishna...so,how is krishna paripurna in vishistaadvaita?