Origin of the Living Entity- Oh No! Here we go again about this jiva-tattva issue!!!

[Guest guest]

 

No one in the Gaudiya line in India except some ISKCON influenced neophytes would ever accept the notion that the conditioned jiva souls in this world were ever situated in their rasa and lila postion with Krsna. All senior Gaudiyas that I have interviewed on this subject say the same thing. This is true of Gaudiya Matha and sangas derived from Gaudiya Math, the Babajis and other "traditional" Gaudiyas. When shown the evidence from Srila Prabhupada's letters and conversations they all say the same thing - that his books supercede all his conversations and letters because the conversation and letters are for time, place and circumstance and must be seen in that light. If you therefore look only at the books as the final authority and then accept that Prabhupada is giving the same thing as his Guru Maharaja and guru varga, just like a letter carrier, then it is possible to come to the correct conclusion. But this means you must be familiar to some extent with the writings of the previous acaryas. Erroneous conclusions such as the "Pradyumna Swami Concoction" arise because neophyte ISKCONians refuse to consult anyone "outside" of ISKCON or "Rtvik ISKCON" no matter how senior or learned are such authorities. There are many learned and realized Vaisnavas who are technically ouitside of ISKCON and Rtvik ISKCON who, if the sastras are like law books, are like law school professors and even the professors of the professors. In relation to them, because of samskars, sukrti and practice, most senior ISKCONians (mainstream and Rtivik) are like confused first year law students. Prabhupada made allowance for so many from so many backgrounds to be engaged in acquiring sukrti, yet when those neophyte persons come to argue against the real Gaudiya siddhanta it is extremely unfortunate. As Rupa Gosvami quotes from the Skanda purana in the Bhakti-

rasamrta-sindhu (1.2.10)

sruti-smrti-puranadi

pancaratra-vidhim vina

aikantiki harer bhaktir

utpatayaiva kalpate

We cannot accept conclusions such as Pradyumna Swami's on the origin of the jiva soul, if they go against the Srutis, Smritis and Puranas etc. If fact such erroneous conclusions must be kicked out, utpatayaiva kalpate, otherwise they will simply be a disturbance to those who wish to follow the correct Gaudiya siddhanta.

 

Srila Prabhupada's words are his books. Obviously you and most devotees in the Gaudiya Math and your Guru's misunderstand Vedanta and their nonsense Impersonal understanding only pollutes so many innocent souls. Your understanding is therefore rejected as offensive Mayavardi philosophy by the real Vaisnava's.

Quote:

 

Originally Posted by Bhativedanta Institute

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada, the founder of the International Society or Krishna Consciousness clearly says:

 

“Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastra-sakti, impersonal liberated condition or Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna.

[Vigraha]

 

Srila Prabhupada's words are his books. Obviously you and most devotees in the Gaudiya Math and your Guru's misunderstand Vedanta and their nonsense Impersonal understanding only pollutes so many innocent souls. Your understanding is therefore rejected as offensive Mayavardi philosophy by the real Vaisnava's.

Quote:

 

Originally Posted by Bhativedanta Institute

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada, the founder of the International Society or Krishna Consciousness clearly says:

 

“Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastra-sakti, impersonal liberated condition or Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna.

 

It is obviously clear that there are two kinds of Vaisnava's, those who believe in the Personal Origins that we were once with Krsna and fell down, and those who believe in the Impersonal origins and that we were never with Krishna and must work our way to Him through devotional service to our Guru.

 

There are very interesting points on both sides of the argument but rediculing each ones understanding is not helpful to new devotees viewing all this on-line. I happen to respect Pradyumna Swami's logic and understanding of how we all fell down to the material universe.

 

Prabhupada did not want arguments amonst Vaishava's, or more honestly, aspiring devotee's. One thing both sides can agree on, and that is they disagree. On that note, Pradyumna Swami has asked me to post the following quote from Srila Prabhupada to illustrate the uselessness of arguing about where the soul fell from.

 

Srila Prabhupada once gave the example of the crow and the fruit of an Indian palm, the tal fruit. On the top of a tree was a nice tal fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down. Some learned scholars saw this and began discussing. The fruit fell because the crow shook the limb, one said. No, said another, as the crow was landing the fruit happened to fall. This frightened the crow, so the crow flew away. No, said a third, the fruit was ripe, and the weight of the crow’s landing broke the fruit from the branch… .

 

 

“What is the use of such discussion?” Srila Prabhupada said.

 

 

"Whether we came from Krishna’s pastimes or from some other spiritual source, Srila Prabhupada said, “at the present you are in neither. So the best policy is to develop your Krishna consciousness and go there [to Krishna], never mind what is your origin.”

 

 

“At the present moment you are in maya’s clutches,” he wrote, “so our only hope is to become Krishna conscious and go back to home, back to Godhead.”

 

 

Don’t waste time with the crow-and-tal-fruit logic, Srila Prabhupada advised. “Now the fruit is there. Take it and enjoy.”

 

 

NOTE: The letters from Srila Prabhupada quoted in this article appear at greater length in Srila Prabhupada Siksamrta, Volume Two, pages 1157–1176.

[Guest guest]

 

Srila Prabhupada's words are his books. Obviously you and most devotees in the Gaudiya Math and your Guru's misunderstand Vedanta and their nonsense Impersonal understanding only pollutes so many innocent souls. Your understanding is therefore rejected as offensive Mayavardi philosophy by the real Vaisnava's.

Quote:

 

Originally Posted by Bhativedanta Institute

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada, the founder of the International Society or Krishna Consciousness clearly says:

 

“Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastra-sakti, impersonal liberated condition or Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna.

 

 

Yes in the Gaudiya Math we follow the teachings of this Guru who said that souls have fallen into this world from Brahman:

 

 

 

 

Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura wrote in Sri Brahma Samhita. Text 21:

 

sa nityo nitya-sambandhah prakrtis ca paraiva sa

TRANSLATION: The same jiva is eternal and is for eternity and without a beginning joined to the Supreme Lord by the tie of an eternal kinship. He is transcendental spiritual potency.

 

PURPORT: Just as the sun is eternally associated with his rays so the transcendental Supreme Lord is eternally joined with the jivas. The jivas are the infinitesimal particles of His spiritual effulgence and are, therefore, not perishable like mundane things. Jivas, being particles of Godhead's effulgent rays, exhibit on a minute scale the qualities of the Divinity. Hence jivas are identical with the principles of knowledge, knower, egoism, enjoyed, meditator and doer. Krishna is the all-pervading, all-extending Supreme Lord; while jivas have a different nature from His, being His atomic particles. That eternal relationship consists in this that the Supreme Lord is the eternal master and jivas are His eternal servants. Jivas have also sufficient eligibility in respect at the mellow quality of the Divinity. Apareyam itas tv anyam prakrtim viddhi me param. By this verse of the Geeta it is made known that jivas are His transcendental potency. All the qualities of the unalloyed soul are above the eightfold qualities such as egotism, etc., pertaining to His acit potency. Hence the jiva potency, though very small in magnitude, is still superior to acit potency or Maya. This potency has another name, viz., tatastha or marginal potency being located on the line demarcating the spheres of the spiritual and mundane potencies. He is susceptible to the influence of the material energy owing to his small magnitude. But so long as he remains submissive to Krsna, the Lord of Maya, he is not liable to the influence of Maya. The worldly afflictions, births and rebirths are the concomitants of the fettered condition of souls fallen into the clutches of the deluding potency from a time that has no beginning.

 

 

This Guru wrote these words in plain English. He said we have been in maya "from a time that has no beginning" and moreover that "the jivas are the infinitesimal particles of His spiritual effulgence".

 

You assert that "that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he (the jiva) was with Krishna". But this Gaudiya Math Guru I've quoted above says words that preclude that, because he clearly stated in plain English that we have been in maya "from a time that has no beginning".

 

You are calling all the Gaudiya Math Acharyas impersonalists because they teach what this Guru teaches. Do you also think this Guru an impersonalist?

[theist]

 

A letter from Srila Prabhupada to Madhudvisa dasa dated June 6, 1972.

Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic

• "We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position.
  Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.
  We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed.
  So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, emerging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons. This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position.
  So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming.
  Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna. So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krsna consciousness and immediately join Krsna. Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased, better to spend time curing the disease.
  On the top of the tree there is a nice tal-fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down, Some panditas, big big learned scholars saw this and discussed: the fruit fell due to the crow agitating the limb. No, the fruit fell simultaneously with the crow landing and frightened the crow so he flew away. No, the fruit was ripe and the weight of the crow landing broke it from the branch, and so on and so on. What is the use of such discussions? So whether you were in the Brahmasayujya or with Krsna in His lila, at the moment you are in neither, so the best policy is to develop your Krsna consciousness and go there, never mind what is your origin.
  Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila--both may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery. But at the present moment we are in Maya's clutches, so at present our only hope is to become Krsna conscious and go back to Home, back to Godhead. The real position is servant of Krsna, and servant of Krsna means in Krsna lila. Directly or indirectly, always we are serving Krsna's lila. Even in dream. Just like we cannot go out of the sun when it is daytime, so where is the chance of going out of Krsna lila? The cloud may be there, it may become very gray and dim, but still the sunlight is there, everywhere, during the daytime. Because I am part and parcel of Krsna, I am always connected. My finger, even though it may be diseased, remains part and parcel of my body. Therefore, we try to treat it, cure it, because it is part and parcel. So Krsna comes Himself when we forget Him, or He sends His representative.
  Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna. Cause and effect are both Krsna. Just like cotton becomes thread and thread becomes cloth, still, the original cause is cotton. Therefore, everything is Krsna in the ultimate sense. When we cannot contact Krsna personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside Krsna's lila. But differences we see under different conditions. Just like in the pool of water and in the mirror the same me is reflecting, but in different reflections. One is shimmering, unsteady, one is clear and fixed. Except for being in Krsna consciousness, we cannot see our actual position rightly, therefore the learned man sees all living entities as the same parts and parcels of Krsna. Material existence is impersonal because my real personality is covered. But we should think that because I am now covered by this clay, I am diseased, and we should think that I must get to business to get myself uncovered, not wonder how I got this way. Now the fruit is there, take it and enjoy, that is your first business. God is not bound by cause. He can change, He is the Cause of all Causes. Now don't waste your time with this "Kaka taliya nyaya," crows and tal-fruit logic."

 

[Guest guest]

The Brahma-Samhita is Brahma glorifying the Supreme Lord Krishna from the Maha-tattva. Everything in the Vedas is from the viewpoint of the mahat-tattva. The Vedas on there own cannot present before us a direct view of the transcendental world (Goloka)

 

'Hence those qualities that seem to be apparently contradictory in the light of mundane conception limited by time and space, exist in agreeable and dainty concordance in the spiritual realm. How can the jiva realize such unprecedented existence? The limited intellectual function of the jiva is always contaminated by the influence of time and space and is, therefore, not in a position to shake off this limitedness. If the potency of cognitive function does not extend to the realization of the transcendental, what else can? In reply.

 

Brahma says that the transcendental Absolute is beyond the reach of the Vedas. The Vedas originate in sound and sound originates in the mundane ether. So the Vedas cannot present before us a direct view of the transcendental world (Goloka). It is only when the Vedas are imbued with the cit potency that they are enabled to deal with the transcendenta' -

His Divine Grace Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Goswami Thakura's Brahma-samhita text 33 purport

[Guest guest]

 

The Brahma-Samhita is Brahma glorifying the Supreme Lord Krishna from the Maha-tattva. Everything in the Vedas is from the viewpoint of the mahat-tattva. The Vedas on there own cannot present before us a direct view of the transcendental world (Goloka)

 

'Hence those qualities that seem to be apparently contradictory in the light of mundane conception limited by time and space, exist in agreeable and dainty concordance in the spiritual realm. How can the jiva realize such unprecedented existence? The limited intellectual function of the jiva is always contaminated by the influence of time and space and is, therefore, not in a position to shake off this limitedness. If the potency of cognitive function does not extend to the realization of the transcendental, what else can? In reply.

 

Brahma says that the transcendental Absolute is beyond the reach of the Vedas. The Vedas originate in sound and sound originates in the mundane ether. So the Vedas cannot present before us a direct view of the transcendental world (Goloka). It is only when the Vedas are imbued with the cit potency that they are enabled to deal with the transcendenta' -

His Divine Grace Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Goswami Thakura's Brahma-samhita text 33 purport

 

The Vedic texts only explain our existence in the mahat-tattva and how we fall from the tatastra consciousness the jiva has entered which is a dormant state of the jiva’s sakti or influence.

 

Some things cannot be understood because the accumulation of knowledge is a material thing and cannot grant one entrance to the eternal personal spiritual domain; hence Brahma says that the transcendental Absolute is beyond the reach of the Vedas. The Vedas originate in sound and sound originates in the mundane ether (within the mahat-tattva). So the Vedas, including the (Brahma-Samhita) cannot present before us a direct view of the transcendental world (Goloka)

 

So what is the origin of the jiva?

 

As far as I’m concerned, Pradyumna Swami makes a lot sense. The answered to the souls origin is explained in two ways according to one perspective or viewpoint. Because of our long duration in the material manifestation we may view that we originated from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, Srila Prabhupada rejects that idea.

 

We must not forget we are in the Kali-yuga where our Spirituality has reverted to a primitive state and virtually is non-existent despite the advances of science and technology. The Vedic teachings were compromised long ago, over 4,500 years ago and even though from time to time, great Vaishnava’s have come, including the Lord Himself in 1486 (Lord Caitanya Maha-Prabhu for the purpose of Lila with His devotee’s and His many, many expansions that can be recorded and handed down to future generations of Vaishnava’s) In the mean time the influence of Kali-yuga has continued. As far as spreading Krishna Consciousness amongst the conditioned souls, that credit belongs to His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

Srila Prabhupada has said: -

 

“We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”.

 

“Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there”.

 

“We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed”.

 

“So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second”.

 

The authentic self in Goloka is ones real bodily form serving Krishna, the jiva sakti or influence of the nitya-siddha-svarupa-sat-cit-ananda-VIGRAHA (the real bodily Krishna Conscious self) in the Vaikuntha’s is engaged in perpetual loving selfless devotional service however, the sakti means also the generation of consciousness. Therefore it is a fact that the jiva DOES manifest as a secondary conscious self that is transferred to the mahat-tattva cloud when one rebels against Krishna. The rebellious souls or the sakti of the jiva (consciousness) CANNOT enter the mahat-tattva cloud in their original rasa body because that transcendental body perpetually remains in either Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha. When we fall down from Goloka due to ‘choice’, it is only a conscious fall down and NEVER as a transcendental bodily fall down. Remember, our nitya-siddha-svarupa-sat-cit-ananda-VIGRAHA body can NEVER fall down.

 

The only way we fall to the nitya-baddha conscious condition is through the non- Krishna Conscious, secondary conscious (the sakti of the jivatma) projections emanating from marginal original self when rebellious towards Krishna. In actually fact, in a crude analogy, the marginal living entities are given free will that can be compared to a light that has the on and off switch. The on switch is our (Krishna conscious devotional rasa with Krishna, where as the off switch is our non- Krishna conscious desires, thoughts and dreams that are transmitted out of the Vaikuntha realm as a secondary conscious condition to the mahat-tattva cloud. This secondary conscious condition is also known as the jiva-sakti or the sakti of the jiva., the realm of influence of the jiva, the potency of the jiva!!

 

Once in the mahat-tattva, that SAKTI OF THE JIVA that is also known as the jiva-bhutah due to now being encaged and conditioned by the ethereal and biological vessels handed out by Maha-Vishnu becomes trapped for millions of births within those bodily containments.

 

When the jiva-bhutah seeks liberation from being contained and restricted within ethereal and biological bodies, yet sill stubbornly remains unaware of their Krishna consciousness jivatma-vigraha perpetual genuine bodily self in Goloka, due to their non-Krishna consciousness dreams, their secondary consciousness transformation (known as the jiva-bhutah transmitted consciousness or the SHAKTI emanating as the jiva-consciousness), is transferred to the mahat-tattva as that jiva bhutah consciousness, or the jiva sakti or sakti of the jiva.

 

Entering the dormant jiva-nikaya conscious state only happens when ones secondary embodied niya-baddha-jiva-bhutah state of consciousness is still in denial of their perpetual Krishna Conscious higher devotional bodily nitya-siddha –sat-cit-ananda-VIGRAHA self.

 

How one enters the Brahma-sayujya and what is the Brahma-sayujya?

 

Ones present embodied conscious forgetful state has originally emanated or immigrated from their genuine bodily self in Goloka. Originally one chose to enter the jiva-nikaya, Brahma-sayujya, tatastra, impersonal Brahmajyoti state of conscious transformation, not only to continue denying who they really are in Goloka serving Krishna, but have also to further reject all the counterfeit ethereal and biological containers or bodies they have been possessing for billions of births while travelling throughout the mahat-tattva, or dreams of Maha-Vishnu.

 

To be able to transform their jiva-bhutah SAKTI to the jiva-nikaya SHAKTI conscious inactive state, their desire, thoughts and dreams now must cease to be active and become an inactive state of individual consciousness (just another transformation of the sakti of the jiva) This inactive individual conscious state is also called the Brahma-sayujya, tatastra or impersonal Brahmajyoti. The sakti of the jiva is therefore now called the jiva-nikaya SHAKTI, tatastra-SHAKTI, Brahma sayujya SHAKTI, Impersonal Brahmajyoti SHAKTI. Remember, SHAKTI is the influence that is originally generated from the jivatma-VIGRAHA in Goloka, therefore the jiva in the mahat-tattva is only ‘generated consciousness’ and has no factual bodily form UNTIL Maha-Vishnu provides such dreaming consciousness, made up of non-Krishna conscious desires and thoughts, with ethereal and biological bodily restraints or vehicles. The state of dormant or inactive dreamless consciousness or SAKTI OF THE JIVA is called the jiva-nikaya. There are many other Sanskrit words describing this state of motionless consciousness – all are the potency or SAKTI of the jiva consciousness expressed in different stages of conscious development

 

Steps of how one fall from Goloka

 

Ones existence in the mahat-tattva is the sakti of the jiva transferred or transmitted from ones genuine marginal bodily self into a secondary marginal impermanent condition when one chooses to no longer serve Krishna.

 

We can only repeat that our origins are from Goloka-Vrndavana as Srila Prabhupada has told us and if we are fortunate enough to again re-waken there, we will certainly understand the spiritual world much better then as we awaken back up as our original Krishna Conscious body.

 

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada, the founder of the International Society or Krishna Consciousness means when he says:

 

“Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastra-sakti, impersonal liberated condition or Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna

[muralidhar_das]

 

<center></center> BY: SUN STAFF

Apr 11, CANADA (SUN) — Bhagavat Sandarbha by Srila Jiva Goswami - Section 64.

No One Falls From Vaikuntha, Which is Beyond Matter.

Sri Suta Gosvami simultaneously describes two qualities of Vaikuntha--it is beyond the material world and it is a place from where no one falls down (S.B.12.11.19)

"O brahmanas, the Lord's umbrella is His spiritual abode, Vaikuntha, where there is no fear.

Rocana dasa has written a very extensive article on this topic:

No One Falls From Vaikuntha

http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/sandarbhas/bhagavat/sandarbhas64.htm

 

 

Well done, Rocana.

[Gaurhari]

 

Rocana dasa has written a very extensive article on this topic:

No One Falls From Vaikuntha

Well done, Rocana.

 

Just to clarify, this is not actually Rocana Prabhu's personal writing. It is from Bhakti Sandarbha (one of the sat sandarbhas) translated and commented on by Satyanarayan Prabhu (formerly of ISKCON I believe, who also co-authored the book "Not Even the Leaves fall from Vaikuntha" with Kundali Prabhu)

 

Gaur Haribol.

[Gaurhari]

 

Just to clarify, this is not actually Rocana Prabhu's personal writing. It is from Bhakti Sandarbha (one of the sat sandarbhas) translated and commented on by Satyanarayan Prabhu (formerly of ISKCON I believe, who also co-authored the book "Not Even the Leaves fall from Vaikuntha" with Kundali Prabhu)

 

Gaur Haribol.

 

 

Sorry, I meant Bhagavat Sandarbha.

[muralidhar_das]

Thanks for the clarification.

 

As I read it, it seemed to be an article presented by the Sun staff.

[gHari]

From Jaiva-Dharma 15:<blockquote>

Babaji:

 

"The time and space as you feel in the

material world are different from the

time and space of the chit world. The

time of the mundane world is divided

into three periods, past, present and

future; whereas the time in the

chit-world is ever present as undivided.

All the events relating to chit are

conceived of as present. Whatever we

describe is under the jurisdiction of

material time and space; so while we

say - ' the jivas were created', ' the jivas

then were fastened by maya', 'the

chit-world was revealed', 'there is no

function of maya in the constitution of

jivas, but that of chit,- then there is the

influence of material time over our

statement; the sort of description is

inevitable in this fastened condition of

ours. For this reason, in all our

descriptions relating to jivas and chit,

we cannot get rid of the influence of the

mundane time,- the past, the present

and the future come of themselves into

them. While having a conception of the

inner meaning of such descriptions, the

truly discriminating judges conceive of

the application of the ever present time.

 

My darling, you should be very

cautious while deliberating over these

things and feel the presence of chit,

having thrown off the unavoidable

detestableness of words. All the

Vaishnavas say that the jiva souls have

been fastened by maya for the

forgetfulness of their own nature, but

they all know that though the jivas are

eternal entities, they are of two kinds,

viz. eternally fastened and eternally

free. Such statements are due to the

human intelligence being subject to

errors and omissions. But a sedate

person forms a conception of the

transcendental truth by means of

chit-samadhi. Our statements are

material, whatever we speak about is

interspersed with the dirt of words, but

you will feel what the truth is.

Argumentations have no footing here,

for it is vain to apply them to

inscrutable truths. I know that you will

not be able to realize this truth in a

moment. The more you culture about

chit affairs the more will be evident the

difference of chit from matter. Your

body is material, all the functions of the

body are material, but in reality, you are

not matter, you are atomic chit

(sentiment) entity. The more you know

about yourself, the more will you feel

your essential nature to be superior to

the material world. You will not be

benefited, if only, I tell you this or you

hear it from me. The more you rouse up

your chit character by means of the

culture of Harinama, the better will you

get a conception of the chit world. The

speech and the mind, both have their

origin relating to matter; they cannot

touch the chit affairs by great exertions.

The Sruti said: "From whom (Brahman)

words recede back with the mind

without getting Him." <B>I advise you not

to ask the decision about this of any

one; feel it within yourself. I only give

you the hint."</b></blockquote>

[theist]

 

I advise you not

to ask the decision about this of any

one; feel it within yourself. I only give

you the hint."

 

 

We should reread the Thakurs words several more times and then decide if this is indeed a debate worth investing time and energy to.

 

Dwarfs jumping in the air trying to catch the moon, this indeed is our position.

[theist]

 

Even if we stop debating in favor of friendly cooperation our attempts to reach into the chit potency will fall woefully short.

 

We accept the hint from Bhaktivinode and seek realization from the Paramatma.

[muralidhar_das]

gHari, prior to this statement you quoted from Jaiva Dharma, in the same chapter (Chapter Fifteen) we read:

 

 

Vrajanatha: The individual soul is not created by maya. That I accept. Maya has the power to dominate the individual soul. That I understand. This is my question: Does the spiritual potency (cit-shakti) place the individual soul on the border (tatastha) of matter and spirit?

 

Babaji: No. The cit-shakti is the full manifestation of Lord Krishna's potency. Whatever she creates is eternally perfect (nitya-siddha). The individual spirit souls are not eternally perfect. By engaging in the activities of devotional service (sadhana) they may become perfect (sadhana-siddha) and thus enjoy spiritual bliss exactly like that enjoyed by the eternally perfect (nitya-siddha) beings. The four kinds of gopi-friends (sakhi) of Srimati Radharani are eternally perfect beings (nitya-siddha). They are manifested from the form of Srimati Radharani, who is the cit-shakti Herself. All the individual spirit souls are manifested from Lord Krishna's jiva-shakti. The cit-shakti is Lord Krishna's complete potency (purna-shakti). The individual souls (jiva-shakti) are counted among Lord Krishna's incomplete potencies (apurna-shakti). From the complete potency complete and perfect things are manifested. From the incomplete potency all the individual souls, who are atomic fragments of consciousness, are manifested. Lord Krishna manifests different kinds of entities according to the different kinds of potencies He employs to create them. When He is manifested in His cit-shakti, He appears as Krishna and as Narayana, the master of Vaikuntha. When He is manifested in the jiva-shakti, He appears as Baladeva, His pastime form (vilasa-murti) in Vraja. When He is manifested in the maya-shakti, He appears as the three forms of Karanodakasayi Visnu, Garbhodakasayi Visnu and Ksirodakasayi Visnu. In Vraja He appears in His original form, as Krishna, a form manifested by His complete potency. Appearing as Baladeva, He manifests His sesa-tattva (nature of Lord Sesa). In this way He manifests the eight kinds of services the eternally liberated associates offer to Him. Again in Vaikuntha He appears as Sesa-Sankarsana and manifests the eight kinds of service His eternal associates offer to Lord Narayana. Lord Sankarsana incarnates as Maha-Visnu. He becomes the resting-place of the jiva-shakti and appears as the Supersoul in the hearts of all the individual souls residing in the material world. All these individual souls are attracted to maya. As long as they do not attain the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and take shelter of the Lord's spiritual hladini-shakti, they are defeated by Maya. Numberless souls are defeated by Maya and cast into Her prison. They are the followers of Maya's three modes. The conclusion is this: the individual souls are manifested by the jiva-shakti. They are not manifested by the cit-shakti.

 

 

Previously on this Forums page someone (possibly a non-existent person) known as Pradyumna Swami stated

 

the jiva sakti or influence of the nitya-siddha-svarupa-sat-cit-ananda-VIGRAHA (the real bodily Krishna Conscious self) in the Vaikuntha’s is engaged in perpetual loving selfless devotional service however, the sakti means also the generation of consciousness. Therefore it is a fact that the jiva DOES manifest as a secondary conscious self that is transferred to the mahat-tattva cloud when one rebels against Krishna.

This idea that souls are transferred into Maya from the spiritual world is directly contradicted in the statement above from Jaiva Dharma

Vrajanatha: The individual soul is not created by maya. That I accept. Maya has the power to dominate the individual soul. That I understand. This is my question: Does the spiritual potency (cit-shakti) place the individual soul on the border (tatastha) of matter and spirit?

 

Babaji: No.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

We should reread the Thakurs words several more times and then decide if this is indeed a debate worth investing time and energy to.

 

No kidding about re-reading the words!! I read it like five times and then started making plans to have it tatooed on my back (or, maybe, just the condensed version: Chit Happens).

 

Srila Bhaktivinod Thakur ki jai!!!!

[Guest guest]

The often quoted so called Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic does not really solve the issue of where the jivas fell from originally. It merely says: "the issue is controversial, possibly unsolvable, and of little practical importance, so dont sweat it too much".

 

However, in the philosophical and doctrinal sense, accepting a particular answer to this question has very profound consequences.

 

If we originally fell from Brahman, then we never had a personal loving relationship with the Supreme Lord - there is nothing to "revive" - we have to develop it from scratch.

 

If we fell from Vaikuntha, then we have to answer all kinds of questions as to why and how it happened. If you end up manufacturing answers to these questions that are not supported by the universally accepted shastras, your answers are at best a mere speculation, at worst: a pure fabrication.

[theist]

 

No kidding about re-reading the words!! I read it like five times and then started making plans to have it tatooed on my back (or, maybe, just the condensed version: Chit Happens).

 

Srila Bhaktivinod Thakur ki jai!!!!

 

ROFLMAO

[Guest guest]

What a great t-shirt that would make.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

What a great t-shirt that would make.

 

Actually, I stole the idea from a T-Shirt. Each year at L.A. Ratha Yatra, there is a "Gurukula Reunion", and the shirt from two years ago had:

 

Sat

Chit

Ananda

 

on the front (with some symbols), and "Chit Happens" on the back.

 

I try to steal from the best

[Beggar]

 

...on the front (with some symbols), and "Chit Happens" on the back.

 

 

O yee of little faith!!!! This is blaspheme, yes blaspheme, I say!

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

 

O yee of little faith!!!! This is blaspheme, yes blaspheme, I say!

 

I'm confused here. Are you saying "this is blasphemy", or are you saying "yes, blaspheme, I say" as in "go ahead and blaspheme some more"?

[Guest guest]

No One Falls From Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha

 

It is there within that mahat-tattva cloud, the projected secondary consciousness, emanating from ones original perpetual body that can never fall from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, becomes contained by ethereal and biological vessels in a manifestation of time (past, present, future, decay and impermanence) that does not exist in the perpetual Spiritual Sky surrounding the mahat-tattva. Such temporary bodies are provided by the presiding Deity of the mahat-tattva Maha-Vishnu and guided (constantly tempted) through the mahat-tattva by Maya-Devi’s sakti, the wife of Maha-Vishnu. The mahat-tattva cloud is a real manifestation like the other three quarters of creation or Spiritual Sky however, unlike the perpetual Spiritual Sky; the mahat-tattva is temporary.

 

The fall from Gods Kingdom is as a secondary manifestation of dreaming consciousness only manifesting within the sub-conscious mind of ones perpetual Spiritual devotional bodily self, that further only exists when one is bereft of God consciousness. Such non-Krishna conscious dreams only come into a temporary existence when they enter the mahat-tattva and are given form by Maha-Vishnu. (There is aways choice to dream of Krishna or dream of self importance, adoration, worship, fame and master)

 

We all have an original KRISHNA conscious body however, we can only be aware of such a body when we are selflessly engaged in loving devotion to God who is known as Krishna in his Supreme Person and lives eternally with His loving devotees (marginal personalities) and unlimited expansions, all playing different roles, in the uninterrupted ambiance of His beautiful Goloka-Vrndavana planet. This divine all-attractive planet exists in the transcendental universe or spiritual sky beyond time and space, past and future. It is a blissful gorgeous imperishable universe that is eternally set in the present as the Brahma-Samhita teaches us.

 

The constitutional nature of the jiva or soul in its full potential of adoring non-envious expression of full consciousness embodied as a eternal bodily form, is engaged in loving noble unconditional service to God and His pure devotees, this wonderful blissful place is the soul’s original constitution.

 

The full constitution of the jiva-soul is further made complete with free will, individuality and identity manifesting as a perpetual bodily form. All jiva-souls, or Krishna’s marginal potency have originally AND ETERNALLY manifested as that perpetual beautiful attractive youthful bodily form serving the wonderful object of their loving service, Krishna the Lord and Master of all and protector of His devotee’s and provider to His dreaming-devotee’s within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu within the Mahat-tattva. On the other hand, how are we to understand the word original when there was no beginning to the Spiritual Sky of Goloka-Vrndavana and the subordinate unending perpetual attractive Vaikuntha planets surrounding that wonderful central creation of Krishna?

 

In the very simplest terms, the Creation is actually divided in the higher universe that covers three quarters of the creation and the lower universe that covers ¼ of creation.

 

The difference between the two is significant; one is imperishable beyond time and space where the past and future do not exist due to the everlasting present, while the other is perishable, controlled by time, past, present, future, decay, forgetfulness, birth, disease, old age and death. This lower universe, which appears as a dark phenomenal cloud in one corner of the Spiritual sky creation and further known as the Brahmajyoti, is called the material universe. The material universe has three basic realities for those who choose to visit its dominion.

 

The first material feature is the ethereal vessels that houses the jiva-soul consciousness transferred from the higher universe,

 

The second material feature is the biological vehicle or body that houses the ethereal or subtle body and...

 

The third material feature is the lifeless material elements that is actually born from the fossilized remains of material biological bodies when they decay and are no longer fit enough to house the ethereal vessel that carries the jiva-soul consciousness (one’s lower self) Such dead matter is spread throughout the material creation (the lower ream of Gods creation). This book will clearly explain how and why Krishna has three levels of reality.

 

Also there are three other aspects of creation

 

1. Higher creation, Goloka-Vrndavana where Radha and Krishna resides and the Vaikuntha where boundless numbers of beautiful Vishnu’s and Lakshmi's reside.

 

2. Lower creation, material manifestation or mahat-tattva where Maha-Vishnu resides in a dreaming phenomena that also facilitates the lower self or secondary dreaming conscious phenomena of the marginal jiva-souls higher bodily self in the higher perpetual universe

 

3. The space between the two is the third known as the Impersonal Brahmajyoti OR Brahma-sayujya where the marginal secondary consciousness can escape too from the suffering of material existence. Such inactive or dormant consciousness is known as the dormant conscious position of the jiva-tattva in creation called the tatastra-sakti.

 

Could it be, due to our long association in the perishable universe for such a long, long, long, long period of time, we mistaking believe we originate from the third temporary portion of creation (impersonal Brahmajyoti) where one attempts to escape from being active as both ones authentic self in the higher universe (due to forgetfulness) and ones counterfeit self in the lower reality, forgetting ones previous active existence, not only in the impermanent lower universe (mahat-tattva), but unaware of that the manifestation of ones secondary consciousness originated from the higher universe (beautiful Goloka)? This book will attempt to explain how this happens.

 

All three levels of conscious reality, from the perpetual to the perishable, to the temporary inactive conscious state, will be explained as simple as possible in English without the often perplexing over use of Sanskrit words. The message is more important than the scholarly jnan or the knowledgeable show of understanding difficult Sanskrit words meant for university graduates, not that there is anything wrong with that, it is just not meant for everyone. Such in depth Sanskrit understanding is not for everyone, such words are too difficult to understand by most people in this day and age (see the story of the cobbler and the jnani page 87

When the jiva-atma-vigraha devotee's energy or power (also an aspect of the marginal living entities minute power or sakti manifesting as sub-conscious dreams within ones jiva-tattva-vigraha body) is transferred as jiva-atma-tattva vigraha devotee’s secondary marginal characteristic, which are one’s non-Krishna conscious dreams, desires and thoughts, that are transferred to the mahat-tattva to be given bodily form (ethereal and then biological) by Maha-Vishnu.

 

This is how we enter the material manifestation, via their dreams, via their non-Krishna sub-conscious dreams generated from their perpetual niya-siddha-jiva-atma-vigraha body in Goloka. Such a secondary lower-self non- Krishna conscious awareness then extends its energy to the mahat-tattva and is then given an ethereal body by Maha-Vishnu which is the body of a Brahma of which there are millions, some devotees, but most not devotees.

 

We do not originally fall to the impersonal jiva-tatastra conscious condition first, as some believe, that happens much, much later and is not possible from the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm. Even Jaya and Vijaya immediately took birth as demons BEFORE Narayana liberated them to the Brahma-sayujya, they never manifested a tatastra aspect of their consciousness, they immediately entered the mahat-tattva and given form supplied by Maha-Vishnu and took birth in the material creation (mahat-tattva).

[Guest guest]

On the fairness of Falldown

 

This essay was originally an answer of Suhotra Prabhu to a question about the “fairness” of our falldown to the material world.

 

First of all we strongly suggest those who have a specific interest in the falldown of the spirit soul from the spiritual world to acquire the book entitled Our Original Position, which is available from the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. It is a very elaborate treatment with much quotations from sastra.

 

I find a refrain in the “condemned,” “pretty unfair,” “felix culpa,” “how could I know” and “bad mistake” arguments that is typical of persons for whom the “original falldown” is a major philosophical stumbling block. And that is, “It’s not my fault. It must be Krishna’s fault.”

 

You have to face this point unflinchingly: it *is* your fault.

 

And you have to face this next point unflinchingly: as long as you entertain the notion that it could be Krishna’s fault (that He’s “pretty unfair”), you will remain in this material world, birth after birth.

 

Accepting that it is your fault that you are fallen into the cycle of birth and death is what surrender is all about. It is only by accepting this that we can sincerely accept the Lord’s help in getting ourselves delivered from this fallen state. Logically, if it is not your fault, then you are not really fallen. Just like, if you end up in prison for a crime you did not deliberately commit (maybe you were just a victim of association, but you personally did not intend harm), then you are not really a criminal, are you?

 

But the fact is, we *are* criminals. And we can’t be reformed until we admit it wholeheartedly.

 

Now, zeroing in on the crux of your doubt — that we fell out of krishna-lila because of some unexpected flare-up of envy, and so how can we be eternally condemned for something over which we had no control — you’ve missed the real controller, Krishna. It is a fact that I, as a tiny spirit soul, have no power to control the ebb and flow of emotional states. But Krishna, the parama-isvara (supreme controller), does.

 

So there are two implications I wish to draw your attention to.

 

If your idea is that we fell because of an emotional flare-up, then behind that idea is a lack of faith in Krishna’s control over those emotions. To be surrendered to Krishna means to place oneself completely under Krishna’s control. So why would Krishna permit the emotions of His surrendered devotee to flare up in some spiritually detrimental manner? Therefore, 1) either Krishna doesn’t really have control over the ebb and flow of emotions that affect living beings, or

2) He does but He takes pleasure in allowing these emotions to cast someone down into darkness. I.e. Krishna doesn’t always have our best interests in mind. Or worse, He has a malicious streak.

 

The adoption of either of these two positions is uncalled for. If you find one, the other or both reasonable, then why trouble yourself with following the Vedic scriptures? The Vedic scriptures state: isvara parama krsna: “Krishna is the supreme controller.”

 

So then how did we fall victim to uncontrolled emotions?

 

The answer is that *first* we assumed a position of independence from Krishna’s control. Our assuming that position was not prompted by some flood of emotions. It was a conscious choice. As Srila Prabhupada writes:

 

“Anandamayo ‘bhyasat (Vedanta-sutra 1.1.12). Both the Lord and the living entity, being qualitatively spirit soul, have the tendency for peaceful enjoyment, but when the part of the Supreme Personality of Godhead unfortunately wants to enjoy independently, without Krishna, he is put into the material world, where he begins his life as Brahma and is gradually degraded to the status of an ant or a worm in stool.”

(Srimad-Bhagavatam 9.24.58, purport)

 

So the uncontrolled emotions that wind us up in lower forms like ants and worms come later. First comes the exalted post of Brahma, who manifests the full potency of a jiva (a liberated spirit soul). Brahma is situated in brahma-varcasa, the Brahman effulgence. Therefore Bhagavatam 2.3.2 states that those who wish to attain the divine light of Brahman should worship Brahma. But Brahma thinks himself

*independent* of Krishna.

 

“That Brahma becomes liberated is known to everyone, but he cannot liberate his devotees. Demigods like Brahma and Lord Shiva cannot give liberation to any living entity. As it is confirmed in Bhagavad-gita, only one who surrenders unto Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, can be liberated from the clutches of maya. Brahma is called here adyah sthira-caranam. He is the original, first-created living entity, and after his own birth he creates the entire cosmic manifestation. He was fully instructed in the matter of creation by the Supreme Lord. Here he is called veda-garbha, which means that he knows the complete purpose of the Vedas. He is always accompanied by such great personalities as Marici, Kasyapa and the seven sages, as well as by great mystic yogis, the Kumaras and many other spiritually advanced living entities, but he has his own interest, separate from the Lord’s. Bheda-drstya means that Brahma sometimes thinks that he is independent of the Supreme Lord, or he thinks of himself as one of the three equally independent incarnations. [”Three equally independent incarnations” means Vishnu, Shiva and Brahma… but actually Brahma is not independent, because he is a jiva (fragmental soul, a constitutional servant of God), whereas Vishnu and Shiva are both classified as isvara (Lords).]” (Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.32.12-15, purport)

 

And, so, as Srila Prabhupada continues in this same purport:

 

“Here the word bheda-drstya occurs because Brahma has a slight inclination to think that he is as independent as Rudra. Sometimes Brahma thinks that he is independent of the Supreme Lord, and the worshiper also thinks that Brahma is independent. For this reason, after the destruction of this material world, when there is again creation by the interaction of the material modes of nature, Brahma comes back. Although Brahma reaches the Supreme Personality of Godhead as the first purusa incarnation, Maha-Vishnu, who is full with transcendental qualities, he cannot stay in the spiritual world.”

 

Please digest the full implications of the above quotation. Brahma, the post occupied by the jiva upon his assumption of independence from the Lord, is a liberated personality. He is not dashed here and there by hot fluxes of emotions, whether envy or anything else. Brahma *knows* fully well the Supreme Lord as Maha-Vishnu. He returns to Him after his period of duty as the creator of the universe. But Brahma also has a tendency, due to his conception of independence, to become attached to his post as the creator… so that when again Vishnu breathes out the universes, Brahma leaves Him to take up the post of a lord of creation again. This second returning to the material world is considered to be his falldown — the falldown of the jiva. Here you see an emotional element creeping in… attachment, prestige, etc, which brings him back to the material world even after his assignment is completed. This is the sign of growing ignorance. That is confirmed thusly later in the same purport:

 

“The specific significance of his coming back may be noted. Brahma and the great rsis and the great master of yoga (Shiva) are not ordinary living entities; they are very powerful and have all the perfections of mystic yoga. But still they have an inclination to try to become one with the Supreme, and therefore they have to come back. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam it is accepted that as long as one thinks that he is equal with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is not completely purified or knowledgeable. In spite of going up to the first purusa-avatar, Maha-Vishnu, after the dissolution of this material creation, such personalities again fall down or come back to the material creation.”

 

The falling down of the jiva into material creation therefore has little in common with the scenario of his being carried away willy-nilly by some unfortunate gush of feelings.

 

It is the result of a deliberate, conscious and informed choice.

 

Perhaps you still have a doubt about how a soul comes to think himself independent. It can be postulated that before he assumed the post of Brahma, that soul must have been with Krishna in His pastimes within the eternal realm of Goloka. How is it that this particular soul goes from there to the post of Brahma?

 

The answer is that Krishna’s pastimes are expansive. As Krishna expands His pastimes, so also the souls expand within Him into further realms of His divine lila or play. The creation of the material world is one more expanded lila. Thus the Lord Himself personally enters the material world, and so also do His devotees. Even the eternal residents of Goloka Vrindavan enter the material world at the time Krishna personally descends Himself, as He did 5000 years ago in Bhauma Vrindavan (the Vrindavan on earth, in India, 90 miles south of New Delhi). Some of these residents assume forms different than their Goloka identities. Narada Muni, for instance, the sage who preaches bhakti throughout the 3 worlds, is originally Madhumangala, a friend of Krishna’s in Goloka. And Narada is the son of Brahma. Brahma is a role a jiva can get in the Lord’s pastime of creation if that jiva is interested in participating in the creation-lila from a position apparently as independent as that of God Himself. This particular position (Brahma) is the one from which a soul *may* fall (it is not guaranteed he will) from the Lord’s association into enmeshment in creation. In other words, rather than simply participating in creation from a transcendental position (as do the residents of Vrindavan and Narada Muni), such a soul, by attachment to his lordly position, becomes *part* of the creation… life after life.

[Vigraha]

"Perhaps you still have a doubt about how a soul comes to think himself independent. It can be postulated that before he assumed the post of Brahma, that soul must have been with Krishna in His pastimes within the eternal realm of Goloka. How is it that this particular soul goes from there to the post of Brahma?

 

The answer is that Krishna’s pastimes are expansive. As Krishna expands His pastimes, so also the souls expand within Him into further realms of His divine lila or play. The creation of the material world is one more expanded lila. Thus the Lord Himself personally enters the material world, and so also do His devotees. Even the eternal residents of Goloka Vrindavan enter the material world at the time Krishna personally descends Himself, as He did 5000 years ago in Bhauma Vrindavan (the Vrindavan on earth, in India, 90 miles south of New Delhi). Some of these residents assume forms different than their Goloka identities. Narada Muni, for instance, the sage who preaches bhakti throughout the 3 worlds, is originally Madhumangala, a friend of Krishna’s in Goloka. And Narada is the son of Brahma. Brahma is a role a jiva can get in the Lord’s pastime of creation if that jiva is interested in participating in the creation-lila from a position apparently as independent as that of God Himself. This particular position (Brahma) is the one from which a soul *may* fall (it is not guaranteed he will) from the Lord’s association into enmeshment in creation. In other words, rather than simply participating in creation from a transcendental position (as do the residents of Vrindavan and Narada Muni), such a soul, by attachment to his lordly position, becomes *part* of the creation… life after life".Inspiring realizations From Suhotra Prabhu

 

The perpetual Kingdom of Radha and Krishna, known as Krishna-Loka or Goloka-Vrndavana and encircled by theimperishable Vishnu-Loka or the Vaikuntha Planets, where Krishna's numerable expansions of Vishnu and Lakshmi reside along with their infinite number of devotee’s (known as Krishna’s marginal potency or individual bodily servants) takes up 3/4 of the imperishable Spiritual Sky or total creation.

Krishna’s planet is centered above in the red lotus flower and surrounded by unlimited expansions of Vishnu and Lakshmi in the surrounding yellow Vaikuntha planets; both transcendental abodes are made up of living entities (individual bodily personalities or Krishna’s marginal potency) with eternal devotional bodies where no material energy can exist. The nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-vigraha devotee’s (Krishna’s marginal potency) can never fall down as their bodily devotional self. The secondary consciousness of the perpetual jiva-atma-vigraha devotee’s only comes into existence when ones focus is not on Krishna, this secondary conscious obviously originates also within the Goloka realm but cannot exist in that realm. In this way it is very clear that the jiva-bhutah consciousness originates outside of the mahat-tattva and is transmitted into the mahat-tattva from one perpetual body in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm that is ¾ of the creation, such secondary consciousness or lower self is known as the jiva-bhutah consciousness. The jiva-bhutah (the lower self) consciousness (jiva-soul or life force) is neither ethereal, biological or material because it is part of ones spiritual constitution however, when this lower conscious version of the self enters the mahat-tattva, it becomes contained and confined to an ethereal vessel provided by Maha-Vishnu for the purpose of beginning its journey in the dreams of Maha-Vishnu to satisfy material desires, dreams and thoughts without Krishna being in the center.

In the corner of the painting above, one can see the less significant and smaller mahat-tattva cloud, also in that Spiritual Sky (perishable material universe only 1/4 of creation), that dark cloud is nothing other than the rebellious dreams, thoughts, desires and impersonal escape of just a few of those eternal bodily personalities (jiva-atma-vigraha devotee’s). Due to their desire not to be with Krishna as their devotional form or body, Such disloyal dreams, thoughts and desires are projected or transmitted as a ‘secondary consciousness’ to the mahat-tattva or temporary material manifestation.

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PHOTO

 

 

 

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada, the founder of the International Society or Krishna Consciousness.

 

 

No One Falls From Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha

 

 

 

 

 

It is there within that mahat-tattva cloud, the projected secondary consciousness, emanating from ones original perpetual body, that can never fall from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, becomes contained by ethereal and biological vessels in a manifestation of time (past, present, future, decay and impermanence) that does not exist in the perpetual Spiritual Sky surrounding the mahat-tattva. Such temporary bodies are provided by the presiding Deity of the mahat-tattva Maha-Vishnu and guided (constantly tempted) through the mahat-tattva by Maya-Devi’s sakti, the wife of Maha-Vishnu. The mahat-tattva cloud is a real manifestation like the other three quarters of creation or Spiritual Sky however, unlike the perpetual Spiritual Sky; the mahat-tattva is temporary. This will be clearly explained in this book.

Krishna’s subsidiary or marginal living entities make Him complete, inclusive and all pervading like the sun and the sunrays, or like a burning bush with embers and sparks emanating from the fire. Unfortunately such a comparisons or analogies have an impersonal shade about it because Krishna is not the sun or a burning bush (ultimately He is the Supreme Vigraha) and His marginal living entities are not rays from the sun or sparks from a burning fire (the marginal vigraha’s). The fact is both Krishna and His marginal potency always remain individual persons as their original authentic perpetual transcendental bodies, that is always who they really are and always have for an eternity. No beginning, no end.

In other words such spiritual bodies in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Autocratic Empire are not vessels or container or a body one is housed in, no, it is not like that in the perpetual spiritual Sky because those bodies are who one really is for infinity.

Srimad Bhagavatam 10.47.32

As a person just arisen from sleep may continue to meditate on a dream even though it is illusory, so by the agency of the mind one meditates on the sense objects, which the senses can then obtain. Therefore one should become fully alert and bring the mind under control.

Srila Prabhupada: -

The verb pratipad means, "to be perceived or restored." The soul that is vinidra, free from the dreamlike condition of material consciousness, is restored to its constitutional position as an eternal servitor of the Lord, Sri Krishna, and thus the soul is directly perceived by pure consciousness.

Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 11:22.54-57 it is stated: -

The soul's (atmanah or jiva-bhutah) material life (samsarah - the ethereal or biological bondage of birth and death), his experience of sense gratification, is actually false, O descendant of Dasarha, just like trees' appearance of quivering when the trees are reflected in agitated water, or like the earth's appearance of spinning due to one's spinning his eyes around, or like the world of a fantasy or dream.

Srila Prabhupada: - ‘Trees appear to be swaying when reflected in agitated water, and similarly, when one is sitting on a moving boat the trees on the shore appear to be moving. When the wind whips up the water, creating waves, the water appears to have movement of its own, although it is actually being moved by the wind. The conditioned soul (jiva-bhutah) in material life does not perform any activities, but rather the ethereal or biological body, with the consent of the illusional living entity or jiva-bhutah, is being moved by the modes of nature. One imposes this external movement upon oneself, considering oneself to be dancing, singing, running, dying, conquering and so on, although these are merely interactions of the external biological body with the modes of nature’.

We hear from the Vedic texts that the Supreme Brahman or Brahmajyoti exhibits Krishna’s effulgence (originates from Krishna), and therefore everything becomes illuminated. We can understand from Brahma-samhita that this Brahmajyoti, or the Brahman effulgence, emanates from the Personal body of Lord Krishna. Many Vaishnava philosophers have considered this effulgence of individuals to be Impersonal however, all ‘so-called sparks’ in Krishna’s effulgence are actually the manifestation of unlimited individual bodily-personalities.

The only place where ones extended secondary consciousness can appear as a spark of conscious in an Impersonal phenomenon, is after first entering the mahat-tattva and then eventually finding freedom from the billions of bodily forms one’s consciousness possesses/creates/provided. Only then can one’s transmitted consciousness enter the Impersonal Brahmajyoti that also has many other names that will be explained gradually through this thesis.

The jiva-tattva, jiva-bhutah, jiva-sakti or spirit soul is a secondary conscious phenomenon originating as an extension from one’s own unique never-ending bodily self (atma-vigraha or jiva-atma-vigraha). This secondary extended restricted dreaming consciousness only comes into existence when one is no longer interested Krishna’s beautiful form as being the central point of ones affection, service, thoughts, dreams and love. The fall down to the secondary conscious level is not dashed here and there by hot fluxes of emotions and sentimentality, whether envy, jealousy, forgetfulness or inattentiveness One is fully aware of what they are dreaming about and CHOOSE to be independent from Krishna, its as simple as that.

In the very elementary terms, this means, as we all know, the mahat-tattva (material temporary manifestation) is a dark cloud in corner of the Spiritual Sky (The entire creation is also referred to as the Brahmajyoti). The presents of life or consciousness can only enter the mahat-tattva from the out side, OR generated from individual consciousness emanating from the nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha devotee’s in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha spiritual Sky UNDER Krishna’s plan of creation. It is their non-Krishna conscious dreams, radiating from ones authentic genuine actual perpetual bodily self (jiva-atma-vigraha), that are transferred to the mahat-tattva because they cannot remain in a fully Krishna Conscious atmosphere. In a crude example, the dreams one has, while in their present biological body, automatically makes one forget their biological body due to being absorbed and identifying with the dreams deep within one’s sub-consciousness. In this way, when ones inner dreams, requirements and thoughts do not include Krishna, such thoughts and desires are transferred to the dreams of Maha-Vishnu within the mahat-tattva where the Lord of the material manifestation and His representatives give those flickering thoughts and desires, bodily form and a stage for their enactment.

Within the imperishable Spiritual Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha’s, ones desires dreams, deeds and thoughts are all equal, are all real as each other however, when such dreams are not Krishna conscious or insync with the constitutional position of ones devotional rasa body blissfully serving Krishna, then such rebellions dreams originally the mistaken thoughts, desires and DREAMS of the lower self of ones eternal bodily personality (atma-vigraha), become unsuitable in Krishna’s eternal beautiful Kingdom and are immediately, on their formation due to choice and not whim, are transferred to the perishable mahat-tattva as a conscious projection of individual thoughts called the jiva-bhutah consciousness. During the transfer of such self-glorifying thoughts, the jiva-bhutah consciousness is placed first in seed form (ethereal basic container) within the dream creation of Maha-Vishnu. Such seed form manifest as the starting point of bodily form from within the mahat-tattva and manifests first as the body of Brahma, the first created being in all the billions of universal globs emanating from the Body of Maha-Vishnu.

[muralidhar_das]

Suhotra Prabhu concludes his article with these two paragraphs:

 

Perhaps you still have a doubt about how a soul comes to think himself independent. It can be postulated that before he assumed the post of Brahma, that soul must have been with Krishna in His pastimes within the eternal realm of Goloka. How is it that this particular soul goes from there to the post of Brahma?

The answer is that Krishna’s pastimes are expansive. As Krishna expands His pastimes, so also the souls expand within Him into further realms of His divine lila or play. The creation of the material world is one more expanded lila. Thus the Lord Himself personally enters the material world, and so also do His devotees. Even the eternal residents of Goloka Vrindavan enter the material world at the time Krishna personally descends Himself, as He did 5000 years ago in Bhauma Vrindavan (the Vrindavan on earth, in India, 90 miles south of New Delhi). Some of these residents assume forms different than their Goloka identities. Narada Muni, for instance, the sage who preaches bhakti throughout the 3 worlds, is originally Madhumangala, a friend of Krishna’s in Goloka. And Narada is the son of Brahma. Brahma is a role a jiva can get in the Lord’s pastime of creation if that jiva is interested in participating in the creation-lila from a position apparently as independent as that of God Himself. This particular position (Brahma) is the one from which a soul *may* fall (it is not guaranteed he will) from the Lord’s association into enmeshment in creation. In other words, rather than simply participating in creation from a transcendental position (as do the residents of Vrindavan and Narada Muni), such a soul, by attachment to his lordly position, becomes *part* of the creation… life after life.

The implication of the idea above expressed by Suhotra Prabhu is that the jiva souls, indeed the entire jiva tattva, have been manifest from the cit-shakti. In the scenario outlined by Suhotra Prabhu an eternal resident of the spiritual world will become a fallen jiva soul. However:

 

krsnera svarupa ara sakti traya jnana

yanra haya, tanra nahi krsnete ajnana

cic-chakti svarupa-sakti antaranga-nama

tahara vaibhava ananta vaikunthadi dhama

maya sakti bahiranga jagat-karana

yahara vaibhava ananta brahmandera gana

jiva sakti tatasthakya nahi yara anta

mukhya tina sakti tara vibheda ananta

ei ta’ svarupa gana ara tina sakti

sabara asraya krsna, krsne sabara sthiti

One who knows the real feature of Sri Krsna and His three different energies cannot remain ignorant about Him. The cit sakti, which is also called svarupa sakti or antaranga sakti, displays many varied manifestations. It sustains the kingdom of God and its paraphernalia. The external energy, called maya sakti, is the cause of innumerable universes with varied material potencies. The marginal potency, which is between these two, consists of the numberless living beings. These are the three principal energies, which have unlimited categories and subdivisions.

C.C.Adi. 2.96, 101-104

In regard to the proposition that souls depart from the cit-sakti and become jivas, because of some bad attitude or bad desire or whatever, there is the following teaching given by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura in Jaiva Dharma, Chapter Fifteen:

 

Vrajanatha: The individual soul is not created by maya. That I accept. Maya has the power to dominate the individual soul. That I understand. This is my question: Does the spiritual potency (cit-shakti) place the individual soul on the border (tatastha) of matter and spirit?

Babaji: No. The cit-shakti is the full manifestation of Lord Krishna’s potency. Whatever she creates is eternally perfect (nitya-siddha). The individual spirit souls are not eternally perfect. By engaging in the activities of devotional service (sadhana) they may become perfect (sadhana-siddha) and thus enjoy spiritual bliss exactly like that enjoyed by the eternally perfect (nitya-siddha) beings. The four kinds of gopi-friends (sakhi) of Srimati Radharani are eternally perfect beings (nitya-siddha). They are manifested from the form of Srimati Radharani, who is the cit-shakti Herself. All the individual spirit souls are manifested from Lord Krishna’s jiva-shakti. The cit-shakti is Lord Krishna’s complete potency (purna-shakti). The individual souls (jiva-shakti) are counted among Lord Krishna’s incomplete potencies (apurna-shakti). From the complete potency complete and perfect things are manifested. From the incomplete potency all the individual souls, who are atomic fragments of consciousness, are manifested. Lord Krishna manifests different kinds of entities according to the different kinds of potencies He employs to create them. When He is manifested in His cit-shakti, He appears as Krishna and as Narayana, the master of Vaikuntha. When He is manifested in the jiva-shakti, He appears as Baladeva, His pastime form (vilasa-murti) in Vraja. When He is manifested in the maya-shakti, He appears as the three forms of Karanodakasayi Visnu, Garbhodakasayi Visnu and Ksirodakasayi Visnu. In Vraja He appears in His original form, as Krishna, a form manifested by His complete potency. Appearing as Baladeva, He manifests His sesa-tattva (nature of Lord Sesa). In this way He manifests the eight kinds of services the eternally liberated associates offer to Him. Again in Vaikuntha He appears as Sesa-Sankarsana and manifests the eight kinds of service His eternal associates offer to Lord Narayana. Lord Sankarsana incarnates as Maha-Visnu. He becomes the resting-place of the jiva-shakti and appears as the Supersoul in the hearts of all the individual souls residing in the material world. All these individual souls are attracted to maya. As long as they do not attain the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and take shelter of the Lord’s spiritual hladini-shakti, they are defeated by Maya. Numberless souls are defeated by Maya and cast into Her prison. They are the followers of Maya’s three modes. The conclusion is this: the individual souls are manifested by the jiva-shakti. They are not manifested by the cit-shakti.

Jivas are not manifested by the cit-shakti. Jivas originate from Mahavishnu’s rays of Brahman effulgence.

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