Origin of the Living Entity- Oh No! Here we go again about this jiva-tattva issue!!!

theist · January 26, 2007

There are a couple of points here:
* There can be no fall in the spiritual world alright, but that does not apply to the material world. In particular the notion of eternity itself has different meanings in spiritual and material worlds.

* Although in english we loosely use the word eternity, it actually is used to denote different things in different contexts. In Sanskrit we find different words e.g. anadi for beginless time (but not necessarily without end), anant for endless time (but not necessarily without beginning), nitya for eternity. So the entanglement of jiva in matter is termed anadi, and the disentanglement as anant but both w.r.t. the material world.

I apologize for missing this post earlier. You indeed did address the time issue.

It is not really true that we shall learn that we never left, rather that we shall be there for endless material time.

I do disagree with your conclusion as stated above.

theist · January 26, 2007

No, i am saying that thinking of simultaneous events in spiritual and material worlds as in falling from brahmajyoti/vaikuntha and then entering material world is not correct, or leaving the material world and then entering the spiritual world. When the description is provided with respect to the material world then the terms anAdi and anant are used, and with respect to the spiritual world the soul enters the eternal time.

Well I can't argue word usage one way or another in English let alone sanskrit. But wouldn't you say that the brahmajyoti is also nitya? If so then are you saying the soul left nitya and entered material time and then leaves material time and enetrs nitya? That being absent for some "time" from nitya is what I object to. I believe it goes against the very nature of eternity.

he material world is unlike the dream. The jiva does not simultaneously exist in both spiritual and material worlds, unlike in a dream experience.

Curious as to what makes you say so. I see a clear distinction between the dreamer and the dream. Dreams come and go but the dreamer is eternally present.

This could have been an acceptable alternative (though there are some problems with this) if there is an evidence for this. The shastra unequivocally says that jiva is never subject to material world on attainment of vaikuntha.

I don't disagree with that but I hear it differently. the soul is never subjected to maya as in an outside force preying upon him. The soul places itself in contact with maya by being envious of krsna position as the enjoyer. The very instant this arises from within the soul the soul is no longer cognizant of Krsna or in other words he is no longer in Vaikuntha...his dream has begun.

Beggar · January 26, 2007

I can really dig this suspended animation idea. Maybe God is the Supreme Animator and all the spirit souls are like cartoon characters. Now supposing you were a cowherd boy in the spiritual world an all of a sudden you wanted to enjoy with the gopis. Whoops and double whoops, your suddenly in the material world. But wait, a minute hold on a second. Maybe Inspector Gadget should investigate what happened to your spiritual body. Sheez, I thought the spirit soul and its spiritual body were actually non-different? But I'm sittin' here being a cockroach and I don't know what happened to my spiritual cowherd boy body? I thought Krishna made sure that His devotee's never perished? Did ya ever notice that we only talk about cowherd boys falling? How about the gopis, isn't what's good for the goose good for the gander? Just how would a gopi fall out of the spiritual world. Yeah right? and most of the ISKCONites and Prabhupada Onlyites really believe that we fell out of Krishna lila. Then they boast, "we have the perfect philosophy, no one can defeat us. When your under all these illusions about Krishna Consciousness your setting yourself up for a big fall, really big and we see it all the time. Of course there but by the grace of God go I.

krsna · January 27, 2007

Response to Crows and Tal-Fruit Logic

BY: PURUJIT DASA

Jan 26, USA (SUN) — Mahesh Raja stated:

Quote # 1: "Now don't waste your time with this "Kaka taliya nyaya," crows and tal-fruit logic.... On the top of the tree there is a nice tal-fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down, Some panditas, big, big learned scholars, saw this and discussed: the fruit fell due to the crow agitating the limb. No, the fruit fell simultaneously with the crow landing and frightened the crow so he flew away. No, the fruit was ripe and the weight of the crow landing broke it from the branch, and so on and so on. What is the use of such discussions?"

Srila Prabhupada repeatedly taught in his books that nittya-siddhas don't fall from the spiritual planet, Vaikuntha. (Exerpts are available here for your perusal.) Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura dedicated a part of his master-piece novel, Jaiva Dharma to our topic in question. (Exerpts are available here for your perusal.) Were they wasting their time with useless discussion of "crows and tal-fruit logic"? Obviously not.

Quote # 2 (lose excerpts) : "Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream, he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position.... We dream this body and so many relationships with other things.... So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream."

These explanations are heavily tainted with mayavada philosophy. Material world is not a dream. We dream neither our body nor surrounding material objects. Material energy is as real as spiritual energy but our perception of it is perverted by our desire to dominate and so we perceive it as the object of our enjoyment. Transformations of the material energy are temporary but the energy itself is eternal. Process of perception (seeing, hearing, etc.) or object of our perception do not disappear once we are liberated. Quality of our perception changes but we, the perceptor, the object of our perception and the perception itself remain. Perception, object of perception and perceptor exist eternally connected and separate simultaneously (acintya-bheda-abheda-tattva) and never disappear or become one. Liberated soul perceives material objects exactly the way we presently perceive them but, the quality of his perception is different. For more detailed explanations please refer to Sad-Sandarbha of Srila Jiva Goswami Prabhupada.

theist · January 27, 2007

Which is fine apart from the problem that this approach is useless in a discussion and that there is hardly anyone who can distinguish between genuine "revelation" from Paramatma and illusion.

I missed this also. It is not that it is useless in the disscusion so much as the discussion may be useless.

I would also say that any genuine revelation from the Paramatma comes with the requiste understanding of the revelation that is imparted by the Lord. That is obvious because without the understanding being imparted their is no meaning to the revelation.

My brain is starting to hurt. Too many words and thoughts in a short amount of time do that to me.Interesting stuff though.

theist · January 27, 2007

I can really dig this suspended animation idea. Maybe God is the Supreme Animator and all the spirit souls are like cartoon characters. Now supposing you were a cowherd boy in the spiritual world an all of a sudden you wanted to enjoy with the gopis. Whoops and double whoops, your suddenly in the material world. But wait, a minute hold on a second. Maybe Inspector Gadget should investigate what happened to your spiritual body. Sheez, I thought the spirit soul and its spiritual body were actually non-different? But I'm sittin' here being a cockroach and I don't know what happened to my spiritual cowherd boy body? I thought Krishna made sure that His devotee's never perished? Did ya ever notice that we only talk about cowherd boys falling? How about the gopis, isn't what's good for the goose good for the gander? Just how would a gopi fall out of the spiritual world. Yeah right? and most of the ISKCONites and Prabhupada Onlyites really believe that we fell out of Krishna lila. Then they boast, "we have the perfect philosophy, no one can defeat us. When your under all these illusions about Krishna Consciousness your setting yourself up for a big fall, really big and we see it all the time. Of course there but by the grace of God go I.

You still don't get the point. Perhaps your sarcasm is blocking your view. Now I don't care if anyone accepts this or not as I am not sure I accept it. Have I made that point clear often enough yet. It is called philosophical speculation as opposed to mental speculation.

Now how can one disagree with a point if he has yet to grasp it? First understand it then disagree. Does that not make sense?

There is no cowherd boy that suddenly disappears from Goloka in the midst of wrestling with Krsna. The spiritual body is never disturbed BECAUSE THERE IS NO TIME. The fall is one of misdirected consciousness. This is "I am not the material body 101". And the time it takes for the misdirected soul to redirect his consciousness onto Krsna and "regain" his orginal rasa is irrelevant because time is only registered in the material world. Once he has come back to his original consciousness which exists in the world beyond time and space (that is what transcendence refers to afterall) he is free from the time conception there is no meaning to the idea of fall.

Now I really am off this thread.

krsna · January 27, 2007

Jaiva Dharma ~ Chapter 15<CENTER>Deliberation About the Proof of the Jiva's Spiritual Locus-Standi </CENTER>

<CENTER>[ Deliberations on the origin of the soul ]</CENTER>

<CENTER>Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura</CENTER>

Translated from the original Bengali

by leading Bengali devotee scholars;

disciples of and under the direction of

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura

Published by

Sri Gaudiya Math

Madras

This day Vrajanatha reached the Srivasangana rather a little early, when the devotees of Sri Godruma called at the Srivasangana just before evening in order to have a darsan of the evening service of aratrika (waving light and frankincense). Sri Premadas Paramahamsa Babaji, Vaishnavadasa, Advaitadasa, etc., took their seats in the arbor before the aratrika. Seeing the effusion of sentiment of these Vaishnavas of Sri Godruma, Vrajanatha thought within himself: "I shall have my object accomplished in association with them." Seeing his amiable face and devotional attitude they all blessed him. Within a short while, when they had left for Sri Godruma towards the south old Raghunatha Babaji Mahasaya noticed that tears were rolling down from Vrajanatha's eyes in an incessant flow. He had cherished a strange degree of affection and he asked him: "O darling, why are you shedding tears?"

Vrajanatha humbly submitted:

"O master, my mind has gone out of order as the result of your instructions and association; everything in our worldly life seems to be pith less and unsubstantial. I have grown impatient to seek protection at the Feet of Sri Gaura. Today a question has arisen in my mind, viz., who am I in reality and why have I come into this world?"

Babaji Mahasaya:

"You have glorified me with this question of yours. When the truly auspicious day arrives for a jiva, it is this question that he puts first of all. There will linger no more doubt in your mind when you will listen to the fifth shloka of the Dasamula and its meaning. Just as sparks come out of a blazing fire, so also from Sri Hari, the chit-Sun, come out the innumerable jivas, atomic chits. Though they are not different from Sri Hari(in respect of their chit constitution), yet the jives are ever separate from Him. The eternal difference between God and the jives is this, that God is the Entity due to Whose special Virtue the maya -potency is His ever-controlled servitor, He being by nature her Lord: whereas he, who is by nature capable of coming under the maya prakriti, even when free, is the jiva."

Vrajanatha:

"The decision is excellent, no doubt. I am desirous of knowing its supporting authority from the Vedas; though the words of the Lord are as good as the Vedas, yet when they are substantiated by extracts from the Upanishads, people will be bound to admit them as conclusive."

Babaji:

"Several Vedic statements corroborate this truth; I am citing only a few of them; just listen. We have in the Brihadaranyaka: Just as small sparks come out from fire, so do all jivas come out of God " and "This entity (jiva) has two places, viz., this (material) region and the other (chit) region; there is a third place border tatastha region forming the juncture of the two; staying at that place of the juncture, he sees both the regions, this one and the other one." Herein has been stated the border characteristic of the jiva-potency. This Br.up says again: "just as a big fish in a river at one time visits its Eastern bank, at another the Western one so also does the jiva move to both the sides, viz., that of dream (nescience) and the other of wakefulness (sentience)."

Vrajanatha:

"What is the meaning of 'tatastha' approved by the Vedanta philosophy?"

Babaji:

"The line between the water of a river and the land on the bank is called the ' tata'. The land is contiguous to the water; where is then the 'tata'? The 'tata' is only like a thread discriminating the land from the water. The 'tata' is a very fine line of distinction which is not discernible with the gross eyes. If the chit world is compared to water and the mayika or material world to land, then the 'tata' is the fine line dividing the one from the other; the place of the jiva-potency is that line of juncture between the two worlds. Just as there are glowing atoms in the sun-rays, so also are the jivas; they may have a vision of the chit world on the one side and on the other this world as built by maya. The chit-potency of God is boundless, so is His maya-potency also enormous; between them are there the innumerable minute jivas. The jivas emanate from the tatastha shakti (border-potency) of Sri Krishna; so is the nature too tatastha (border-potency) of Sri Krishna."

Vrajanatha:

Of what sort is that 'tatastha' nature?"

Babaji:

"In it vision can be had of both the sides from the midway position between the two worlds. The capability of coming under the control of both the potencies (chit and mayika) is the tatastha nature. The 'tata' (line of demarcation) can come into the river being dug out by the force of water; again when the land is hardened, the 'tata' becomes land. If a jiva turns his vision towards Sri Krishna, he becomes confirmed within Krishna-shakti (i.e., chit) but when he turns towards maya and turns away from Krishna (i.e. becomes apathetic towards Him), he falls into maya's snare to be fastened in it. This nature is 'tatastha'.

Vrajanatha:

"Has maya anything to do with the jiva's constitution?"

Babaji:

"No, the jiva is constituted of chit material; being exceedingly atomic he is domitable by maya for want of the chit strength. In his constitution there is no trace of maya."

Vrajanatha:

"I heard from my professor that Chit Brahman being enveloped by maya has become the jiva; just as the unlimited sky becomes Ghakasa i.e., the sky of the pot when covered in it, so also the jiva that is Brahman by nature has become such being covered by maya. What does this mean?"

Babaji:

"This is only mayavada. How can maya touch Brahman? If you say that Brahman has no potency, then how can there be His proximity to maya? When the potency of maya is non-existent? Brahman cannot undergo such a miserable condition under the cover of maya. If you keep the para shakti (essential potency) of Brahman awake, then how can maya, who is an insignificant potency, defeat the chit potency to create jiva out of Brahman? Brahman is infinite: how can He again be partitioned into portions as the great sky into skies in pots? maya's action on Brahman cannot be admitted. Maya has no authority over the creation of jivas; though the jiva is en atom, yet he is superior to maya. "

Vrajanatha:

"Some time before, a professor said that the jiva is the reflection of Brahman. Just as the sun is reflected on water, so is Brahman reflected on maya to become the jiva. What does this too, mean?"

Babaji:

"This, too, is mayavada. Brahman has no limit; an unlimited thing cannot be reflected. The Vedas do not approve of the confinement of Brahman within bounds. The theory of reflection is very abominable."

Vrajanatha:

"On another occasion a world conqueror sannyasi said that the jiva is not a real entity; the conceit as jiva has arisen out of illusion; when illusion goes off, there remains only one undivided Brahman. What does this ,too, mean?"

Babaji:

"This, to, is mayavada and is without foundation. According to the statement in the Sruti 'ekamev advitiyam what more can be had than Brahman? When them is nothing else than Brahman where from does the illusion come? And whose is this illusion? If you say that it of Brahman, then you make Brahman insignificant and keep Him not as Brahman. If a separate existence is admitted of the name of 'illusion', then the truth of 'advaya-jnana' is clashed with."

Vrajanatha:

"A scholarly Brahmana of this Navadvipa established that there is no jiva but only one Brahman who in his dream creates the weal and woe; when his dream is over, he is Brahman. What type of statement is this?"

Babaji:

"This, too is mayavada. Transformation from the state of Brahman to that of jiva and the dream - how can all these be substantiated? Citing examples of the conception of silver in a pearl or that of a rope appearing as a snake the mayavadin cannot maintain advaya-jnana, these webs of tricks have been prepared for enchanting and fascinating the people."

Vrajanatha:

"It must be admitted that in the creation of the jiva soul maya has nothing to do; I do also understand that maya can exercise her power over the jiva." Now my question is whether the chit-potency has framed the jiva with the tatastha (border) natural?"

Babaji:

"No, the chit-potency is Krishna's plenary potency; Whatever she produces is eternally accomplished; the jiva is not so eternally accomplished; when he becomes accomplished by practices (sadhana-siddha), he enjoys bliss like those eternally accomplished entities. The four kinds of confidantes of Sri Radha (to be described hereafter) are eternally accomplished; their bodies are about the same, with slight variations, with that of Sri Radhika who is essentially the chit-shakti. The jivas have grown out of the jiva-shakti of Sri Krishna. Chit-shakti is Sri Krishna's full (plenary) shakti, whereas the jiva-shakti is the incomplete shakti. From the plenary potency are produced complete entities, but from the incomplete potency have grown the jivas as atomic chit. Krishna manifests entities of different types in accordance with the kind of the shakti He applies.

When established in His essential chit-shakti He reveals His essential Nature as Sri Krishna Himself on the one hand and on the other as Sri Narayana, the Lord of Vaikuntha. When he desired to have His adherent attendance ' nitya parshada' servitors in His Transcendental plane Goloka- Vrindavana Vaikuntha, etc. He through Baladeva created those Eternal Parshada as nitya-mukta jivas at those divine worlds. He reveals the three Forms of Vishnu, viz., Karanodakasayi, Kshirodakasayi and Garbhodakasayi. At Vraja He reveals His own Nature as Krishna with chit in fullness; as Baladeva, He reveals the eternally free associate jivas for the performance of the eight kinds of service of Himself as Sri Krishna. Again at Paravyoma (Vaikuntha) He, as Sankarshana, reveals the eternally free associate jivas for the performance of the eight kinds of service to Sri Narayana. Maha Vishnu, the incarnation of Sankarshana, establishing Himself in the heart of jiva-shakti as Paramatma, creates the jiva-souls of tatastha shakti. These jivas are susceptible to the influence of maya. Till by dint of God's Grace they get shelter under the hladini (bliss-giving) shakti they are liable to be overcome by maya. Innumerable jivas, overcome fastened by maya, are attached to the three gunas (sattva, rajah, tamah) of maya. As such, the conclusion is that it is the jiva-shakti that begets the jivas, and not the chit-shakti."

Vrajanatha:

"I have already heard that the chit-world is eternal and so are also jivas. How are, then, the growth, creation and revelation of eternal things possible? If they are revealed at some time and were unrevealed previously, how, then can their eternity be possible?"

Babaji:

"The time and space as you feel in the material world are different from the time and space of the chit world. The time of the mundane world is divided into three periods, past, present and future; whereas the time in the chit-world is ever present as undivided. All the events relating to chit are conceived of as present. Whatever we describe is under the jurisdiction of material time and space; so while we say - ' the jivas were created', ' the jivas then were fastened by maya', 'the chit-world was revealed', 'there is no function of maya in the constitution of jivas, but that of chit,- then there is the influence of material time over our statement; the sort of description is inevitable in this fastened condition of ours. For this reason, in all our descriptions relating to jivas and chit, we cannot get rid of the influence of the mundane time,- the past, the present and the future come of themselves into them. While having a conception of the inner meaning of such descriptions, the truly discriminating judges conceive of the application of the ever present time.

My darling, you should be very cautious while deliberating over these things and feel the presence of chit, having thrown off the unavoidable detestableness of words. All the Vaishnavas say that the jiva souls have been fastened by maya for the forgetfulness of their own nature, but they all know that though the jivas are eternal entities, they are of two kinds, viz. eternally fastened and eternally free. Such statements are due to the human intelligence being subject to errors and omissions. But a sedate person forms a conception of the transcendental truth by means of chit-samadhi. Our statements are material, whatever we speak about is interspersed with the dirt of words, but you will feel what the truth is. Argumentations have no footing here, for it is vain to apply them to inscrutable truths. I know that you will not be able to realize this truth in a moment. The more you culture about chit affairs the more will be evident the difference of chit from matter. Your body is material, all the functions of the body are material, but in reality, you are not matter, you are atomic chit (sentiment) entity. The more you know about yourself, the more will you feel your essential nature to be superior to the material world. You will not be benefited, if only, I tell you this or you hear it from me. The more you rouse up your chit character by means of the culture of Harinama, the better will you get a conception of the chit world. The speech and the mind, both have their origin relating to matter; they cannot touch the chit affairs by great exertions. The Sruti said: "From whom (Brahman) words recede back with the mind without getting Him." I advise you not to ask the decision about this of any one; feel it within yourself. I only give you the hint."

Vrajanatha: "

If the jiva is the atomic ray of the chit (sentient) sun like the sparks of the blazing fire, what is then the function of the jiva-shakti?'

Babaji:

"Krishna is self-effulgent like the blazing fire or the sun, within the range of the chit-Sun, everything is full chit concern; outside it, the rays radiate far and wide. A pencil is a molecule of the svarupa-shakti, and the rays within it are its atoms; and the jivas are such atoms. The svarupa-shakti displays the region within the orb of the Sun; the function of the region outside the orb is that of the jiva-shakti which is the atomic part of the chit-shakti. So only the jiva-shakti functions concerning the jivas. According to the Sruti, which says His (God's) para ( supreme) shakti is of different sorts, the para-shakti which is the chit-shakti, coming of its own regions as jiva-shakti is ever displaying the eternal jiva like the rays of the Sun in the border region between the chit region and the maya's region."

Vrajanatha:

"The blazing fire is material, the sun too, is material; the sparks, too are material. Why are these material things employed as examples in the case of chit-tattva (truth relating to chit)?"

Babaji:

"I have already told you that whenever we have to speak about chit affairs with words that are material, the dirt of matter must be there; so it is under compulsion that such examples have got to be cited. As there is no other way, we have to explain chit things by using the words ' fire' ' sun ' etc. In reality, Krishna is quite different from and far superior to the sun; the region o' chit is surpassingly superior to the brilliant solar orb; the pencil of the sun and its minute rays are extremely inferior to Krishna's pencil and rays. Even so, those examples are used considering only the points of similarity, the examples show the points only partially and do not apply to all cases. The functions of the sun and the sun-rays are to reveal their own beauty and other things, and only these too indicate the self-revealing character and the character of revealing others with reference to the chit-tattva; but the power of ignition and the materiality of the sun are not applicable as examples to chit affairs. When we say that milk is like water, we mean only the liquidity of milk; otherwise can the milk, which has in it all the characteristics of water, be milk proper? Therefore examples explain only the character of a particular side of things, not that of all the sides."

Vrajanatha:

"How is it possible that the pencil of the chit-sun and the atomic rays there within, though not separate from the sun, are yet ever different?"

Babaji:

"In the material world when one thing comes out of another, it either becomes totally severed from that, or remains adhered to that, as it is the property of matter. When an egg comes out of the mother-bird, it remains separate from her and no more keeps within her. The nails and hair on the body of a man though grown out of it keep together with him till they are clipped off. In chit affairs there is some specialty. In respect of whatever have come out from the chit sun, all are simultaneously both distinct from Him and also non-distinct. Just as the solar pencil and the rays coming out from the sun remain the same, so also the pencil from Krishna, viz., jiva-shakti and the atomic rays viz., the jivas, coming out from Krishna-sun, ever remain non-separate from Him; again even being non-separate, different jivas, getting different particles of independent volition, ever keep separate from Krishna.

Therefore the truth of jivas being both non-distinct and distinct from Krishna is an eternally accomplished fact. This is the special feature of chit affairs. The savants cite only a partial example from matter. It is thus; there is a big lump of gold; a bangle is made of a bit out of it; the bangle is non-distinct from the lump of gold, in respect of its being gold but it is distinct from the lump of gold, in respect of its being the bangle and not the lump. This example does not apply in all respects; but it functions in a particular way; in respect of being both chit, the chit-sun and the chit jiva are non distinct, but in respect of their being respectively the Plenary chit and the atomic chit, there is distinction between them according to circumstances. The example of ghatakasa (sky scape in the pitcher) and mahakasa (fermamental sky) is quite inapplicable to the chit-tattva.

Vrajanatha:

"If chit (sentiment) object and mundane matter are generically different from each other, then how can either be the proper example of the other?"

Babaji:

"There is no such distinction of classes between chit and jada (mundane) matter, as there are different classes in mundane matter, which the followers of the Nyaya-system of Philosophy call Nitya (permanent). I have already said that it is only chit which is the real thing and jada is its uikara (vitiated state). There are many similarities between a pure thing and its vitiation. The vitiated thing becomes different from the pure thing; yet the similarity lingers in many respects. Ice being a vitiated form of water becomes a different thing from water, but similarity still exists in respect of the properties like coldness, etc. though such similarity does not exist between the cold and the hot water; but they are similar regarding their common property of liquidity. Thus in a vitiated thing there remains some common property or another, of the pure thing. So though the mundane world is the vitiation of the chit world, a chit subject may be deliberated on with the help of an example from a mundane matter, utilizing the similarity of a chit property available in such matter. Again adopting the principle of the vision of the Arundhati star (a small star in the group of the pleiads in the constellation of Taurus, visible with fine discernment by ascertaining its position with the gross material, vision), - the subtle properties of a chit matter are conceived with the deliberation of the crude and perverted matter of the mundane world. Sri Krishna's lila is totally transcendental or supra-mundane; there is no stench of mundane matter in it. The sports of Vraja as described in the Srimad Bhagavatam are all transcendental; and when the affairs described therein are read among a group of men, they produce effect upon them according to their respective competence; the members of the audience, who are entirely attached to mundane matter, hear about the activities of the ordinary dramatic hero and heroine with a relish of rhetorical embellishment of material subjects, those of an intermediate competence adopt the principle of the vision of the Arundhati star to see the sportiveness of sentience in the proximity of material descriptions; whereas those of the superior competence dive in the pure relishable sentiment of the sportiveness of sentience beyond the scope of mundane matter. What other means are there for the proper training of jivas than the application of those principles? How can any nice resort be possible for the fettered jivas, in which the power of speech does not work and the mental power admits defeat? No means is to be found except some examples with good similarities and the principle of visualizing the star Arundhati. In mundane matters only will be noticed either distinction or non-distinction, but that is not the case with the Supreme entity. Inscrutable simultaneous distinction and non-distinction must be admitted between Krishna and His jiva-potency.''

Vrajanatha:

"Wherein lies the distinction between Supreme God and jiva souls?"

Babaji:

"At first I shall explain the eternal non-distinction and show the eternal distinction thereafter. God is, in His Nature, Sentience, Enjoyer, Thinker, Self-manifest, Manifestor of others, Soul acting at pleasure. The jiva has got all these characteristics. Being the Possessor of Plenary Potency, God has these properties to the utmost extent; whereas the jiva being the possessor of only atomic potency, these properties are present in him to a minute extent. Though there is a distinction regarding the essential nature and character, regarding the possession of those properties yet there is a want of distinction between God and jiva. Being the possessor of His own potency to the fullest extent, God is the Master of Svarupa shakti (natural potency), jiva-shakti and maya-shakti; potency is His servitor under control, He is the Master of potency, His potency acts at His will - this is the essential Nature of God. Though the jiva has all the properties of God in minute jots, he is subject to maya. The word ' maya's used in the Dasamula (vice its fifth shloka)- in the beginning of this chapter) does not denote only jada (mundane) maya, here it means Svarupa-shakti. From its derivation, viz., by which measurement is made, maya is the name of that shakti which makes Krishna known in the chit world, jiva-world and mundane world, as such, maya here denotes Svarupa-shakti and not jada-shakti. Krishna is the Master of maya, whereas the jiva is under her control.

So the Svetasvara Upanishad has said thus. "From all this diversity (which the Veda describes) the Master of maya creates the universe and the other (viz. jiva) is confined in it by maya. Know maya as His Prakriti (Nature) and the Master of maya is Supreme God. All this universe is pervaded by His shakti ". In this sentence of the Veda, the word. Mayee (Master of maya) denotes Krishna, the Controller of maya, Prakriti means plenary potency. These attributes as adored by all and the Nature are the special properties of God; they are not present in the jiva, even when liberated, he cannot get these attributes. The Brahma-Sutra says: "The free jiva souls are able to perform all things excepting the affairs of the universe,-viz., its creation, sustenance, restraint, etc." In it has been admitted that there is eternal distinction between God and the jiva. This eternal distinction is not imaginary, but eternally true, this distinction will not come to an end in any stage. On this account, just know it to be a fundamental statement that ' the jiva is the eternal servant to Krishna."

Vrajanatha:

"If the eternal bheda (distinction) is the accomplished fact, then how can the abheda (non-distinction) be admitted? Shall we then have to admit that there is a stage called nirvana (annihilation)?"

Babaji:

"No, my darling, that is not the case, in no stage is the jiva non-different from (i.e., identical with) God."

Vrajanatha:

"Then why have you stated the doctrine of achintya-bheda-bheda inscrutable simultaneous distinction and non-distinction?"

Babaji:

"With regard to chit-dharma (sentient character) there is eternal abheda between Krishna and the jiva, but in svarupa (essential nature) there is eternal bheda. In spite of the eternal abheda, the conception of the bheda is eternal. Though the abheda svarupa is an accomplished fact, yet there is not any indication there of relating to any state. Whenever there is an indication according to a particular stage, the manifestation of the eternal bheda is the stronger. For example, if a house is simultaneously said to be ' without Devadatta and with Devadatta,' then the eternal indication of its being with Devadatta, will ever continue, even though according to some consideration it may be without Devadatta'. I shall cite another example from the mundane world,- the sky is a mundane matter, even if there be a receptacle of the sky, too, in spite of that receptacle, as there is the indication of the sky alone, so the indication of the nitya (eternal) bheda that is there in the abheda entity, is the only indication of the thing."

Vrajanatha:

"Then, please, tell me a little more clearly about the eternal nature of the jiva."

Babaji:

"The jiva is anu-chaitanya (atomic sentience), endowed with the attribute of jnana (consciousness), predicable by the term 'aham' (ego), enjoyer, thinker and comprehender. The jiva has his eternal nature; that nature is astral. Just as in the gross body, the hands, legs, eyes, nose, ears etc., being properly arranged, have manifested the crude nature; so the atomic sentient body, perfect in every feature, has manifested the atomic sentient nature; and that is the jiva's eternal nature. When he is fettered by maya, his natural body becomes covered with two phenomenal bodies, the one is called linga-sarira (subtle body), and the other the gross body. The subtle body is a disguise over the body of the atomic sentient nature; that subtle body is unavoidable from the time that the jiva is fettered to the time that he is emancipated. At the time of taking other births only the gross physical bodies undergo changes, but not the subtle body. The subtle body (of a bounder soul) is only one; at the time of changing a gross body, it takes away with it all the desires regarding karma made by it before accepting the subsequent body. The nature of a jiva who has got a new body is formed according to the instinct transmitted from the previous birth grown out of the desires thereof. And he gets his caste according to that nature. Karma or action ensues according to the varnashrama (caste and stage of life), and after death he again gets a similar course. The first cover for the eternal nature is the subtle body ( or mind) and the second cover is the gross (physical body)."

Vrajanatha:

"What is the difference between the nitya sarira (eternal body) and the linga-sarira ( subtle body)?"

Babaji:

"The eternal body is of atomic chit (sentience), blemishless and really predicable by aham (ego). The subtle body is constituted of the three vitiations, viz. manah (mind), buddhi (intellect) and ahamkara ( egotism).

Vrajanatha:

"Are the mind, intellect and egotism of the mundane nature? If they are so termed how can their sentient functions be performed?"

Babaji:

"Just look into the dictum of the Gita. "God with His chit-shakti (sentient potency) has two prakritis (shaktis). viz. para (superior) and apara (inferior); here the para-prakriti has been known as jiva-shakti and the apara-prakriti as jada (mundane material) or maya-shakti. The jiva-shakti is chitkana (atomic sentience) and, for this reason, it is called para or superior. maya shakti is jada and as such it is celled apara. The jiva is different from the inferior potency, which has in it eight coarse things viz., the five maha-bhutas (primary elements) and manah (mind) buddhi (intellect) and ahamkara (egotism). The last three are within jada prakriti and are therefore mundane matters; there is some appearance of jnana (sentience) in them; but it is not chit by nature, but of mundane matter. The mind places the affair of the knowledge of sensual objects on the images that it takes from mundane matter; this affair has its root in mundane matter and not in chit matter. The faculty that discriminates between good and bad relying on that knowledge is known as buddhi (intellect), that, too, has its root in mundane matter. And the egotism, too, arising out of the acceptance of that knowledge has mundane matter at its root and not the chit. These three, combined together, manifest a second nature of the jiva, related to mundane matter. The egotism of the subtle body of that nature of the jiva overcome with mundanity becomes strong enough to cover the egotism of the eternal nature. The egotism in the eternal nature connected with the chit-sun is eternal. In the stage of liberation, that egotism appears again. So long as the eternal body is almost hidden under the subtle body, the conceit of the connection with mundane matter remains strong, and consequently the conceit of connection with chit is almost extinct. The subtle body is too fine and therefore the gross body, covering it, makes it act. When the gross body covers the subtle body, then the egotism of the conceit of color and class of the gross body becomes the prevailing factor. Though the mind, intellect and egotism are of mundane nature, yet they have the conceit of knowledge, being the vitiated nature of the function of atma (soul).

Vrajanatha:

"Now I have understood that the eternal nature of the jiva is atomic chit and that in that nature there is elegance of the limbs made of atomic chit; when it is bound down (by maya), that elegance is covered by the subtle body; and then with the cover of the gross body, the nature of the jiva is subjected to much mundane vitiation. Now I beg to submit my question whether the jiva is entirely free from defects in the liberated state"

Babaji:

"Though the atomic chit is free from defect, it is imperfect, inasmuch as being extremely atomic, it is too weak. Under these circumstances, only this defect is seen in it, that the nature is capable of being almost extinct. The Srimad Bhagavatam has said, "O Lotus-eyed Lord, wisdom of one cannot be free from contamination without unalloyed devotion to Thee. Those treading the path of jnana or following the path of inductive process, devoid of an atom of devotion to They may think themselves liberated; on the contrary failing to adore Thy Lotus Feet, their minds ever remain impure although with great exertion and difficult efforts they might have attained a high stage nay. almost near liberation, but hurled down to the mundane plane because they have neglected to take recourse to Thy Divine Lotus Feet" As such, however ameliorated may a liberated jiva be the imperfection of his constitution will ever accompany him and this is the truth about jivas. It is for this reason that the Veda has said that "God is the Controller of maya, whereas the jiva is subject to the control of maya" being the tatastha shakti."

Jiva

sumedh · January 27, 2007

But wouldn't you say that the brahmajyoti is also nitya? If so then are you saying the soul left nitya and entered material time and then leaves material time and enetrs nitya? That being absent for some "time" from nitya is what I object to. I believe it goes against the very nature of eternity.

I think it would be easier if we use separate references for time in spiritual and material worlds. Let us refer to the time in spiritual world as spiritual time and material world as material time.

Brahmajyoti is, of course, all pervasive in nature, in the material world, in the spiritual world as well as in tatastha region. The Brahmajyoti would be in spiritual time in spiritual world and material time in material world, which means that it is not necessary that the soul comes from "nitya" unless one assumes that it originates in spiritual world. This is not the case in our siddhanta where the jiva is said to come from tatastha region, and so it is not subject to spiritual time. Only when the soul attains moksha does it enter the spiritual time.

Curious as to what makes you say so. I see a clear distinction between the dreamer and the dream. Dreams come and go but the dreamer is eternally present.

You are right, my statement is slightly inaccurate. What i wanted to say that the analogy of dream/dreamer breaks down in the context of spiritual world/material world. The reason is that in a dream the dreamer can imagine oneself to be somewhere while he is actually present somewhere else (and in that sense he is simultaneously present). However, since the material world is as much real as the spiritual world, the presence of soul in material world means that it is actually present here and so the analogy does not hold where dreamer is actually present elsewhere (in this case the analogy was to show that the "dreamer" is actually present in spiritual world which does not hold).

I don't disagree with that but I hear it differently. the soul is never subjected to maya as in an outside force preying upon him. The soul places itself in contact with maya by being envious of krsna position as the enjoyer. The very instant this arises from within the soul the soul is no longer cognizant of Krsna or in other words he is no longer in Vaikuntha...his dream has begun.

The way you see it makes things kind of "symmetric" in the sense that the jiva can leave/enter vaikuntha multiple times. However, the description in shastra clearly holds an "asymmetric" view where the jiva never leaves once it enters vaikuntha and that it was never in vaikuntha before.

theist · January 27, 2007

I think it would be easier if we use separate references for time in spiritual and material worlds. Let us refer to the time in spiritual world as spiritual time and material world as material time.

The problem is I cannot do this because I view the spiritual world as being transcendental to time altogether so I have no referrence point for the term "spiritual time."

Brahmajyoti is, of course, all pervasive in nature, in the material world, in the spiritual world as well as in tatastha region. The Brahmajyoti would be in spiritual time in spiritual world and material time in material world, which means that it is not necessary that the soul comes from "nitya" unless one assumes that it originates in spiritual world. This is not the case in our siddhanta where the jiva is said to come from tatastha region, and so it is not subject to spiritual time. Only when the soul attains moksha does it enter the spiritual time.

I am not sure if I accept the tatashta "region" as a reality. I am open to it but at this point I am not sure one way or the other on how it is meant. I do accept the jiva as being the tatashta energy of the Supreme Lord and any region of tatashta would have to be in reference to the jiva and therefore a secondary consideration in my view.

Again we have the same disagreement on "spiritual time". I just hold a different view so on that we have come to an impasse and a fundumental one at that as the time conception and the lack thereof is at the heart of this issue. We will have to agree to disagree on this one.

You are right, my statement is slightly inaccurate. What i wanted to say that the analogy of dream/dreamer breaks down in the context of spiritual world/material world. The reason is that in a dream the dreamer can imagine oneself to be somewhere while he is actually present somewhere else (and in that sense he is simultaneously present). However, since the material world is as much real as the spiritual world, the presence of soul in material world means that it is actually present here and so the analogy does not hold where dreamer is actually present elsewhere (in this case the analogy was to show that the "dreamer" is actually present in spiritual world which does not hold).

I do believe the material world is real but not in the same way the spiritual world is real. Just the way a dream has it's reality but AS A DREAM. The reality of the material world is an illusion (not in the mayavad conception of illusion) ,whereas the spiritual world is Reality without the illusion (please don't mention yoga-maya, that is another thing )

The material world can actually be seen as formless and void if we take the meaning of form to refer to the eternal spiritual form, which I do. These material forms are dream forms only. Wispy little puffs of the imagination of the material mind. We are conditioned to the idea that matter is solid whereas spirit is something etheral and vague. But in reality spiritual form is the real substantial thing.

This would make for a very valuable and fruitfull thread on it's own as it relates directly to sambandha-jnana and is essential for understanding ourselves, God, and the universe in proper relationship.

The way you see it makes things kind of "symmetric" in the sense that the jiva can leave/enter vaikuntha multiple times. However, the description in shastra clearly holds an "asymmetric" view where the jiva never leaves once it enters vaikuntha and that it was never in vaikuntha before.

My view is slightly different. The symmetry is not in the soul coming and going from Vaikuntha for afterall most souls never "fall" as I understand it. The symmetry is found in the fact that the soul always has freewill to leave or stay. And I see freewill as a necessity for love to be real and therefore indespensible. That is what makes us the marginal energy of Krsna. Freewill is the very marking point, the boundary between ourselves and Krsna and all the other infitesimal souls which have come from Him.

sumedh, please release me from this thread. I can't resist responding to your posts and therefore reveal myself as a hypocrite more and more for saying I am leaving this thread only to come back yet again. I have said all I can on my thoughts on this one. I am hoping we can meet on other topics and continue on for you are a natural gentleman and I want to become one and therefore your cyber association is most benefical for me. But please free me from this topic as I need to concentrate on subjects vital for my liberation from matter. I just had my 55 birthday and have received my offical death notice in writing 5 years ago. I am running short on time and am a little scared because I am nowhere ready to leave my body in proper consciousness. I fear not death but rebirth.

Please take the last word and when I don't respond know that I am not ignoring you.

pranams

January 27, 2007

In Sri Bhaktirasamrtasindh text 1.2.295, when describing the process of raganuga bhakti, Srila Rupa Goswami states:

"Following after the inhabitants of Vraja, one should perform service in one's physical body and in one's siddha body, with a desire for a particular bhava."

In Sri Jiva's commentary to this verse he said "... Siddha-rupa (spiritual body) refers to the body which is suitable for one's desired service, and which has been developed by internal meditation."

The spiritual body arises from within the consciousness of a liberated person, when the liberated person desires to render service to Bhagavan. Before the desire to render service awakens the liberated soul is merged in the mass of consciousness known as Brahma-nirvana (gita 5.24: yo 'ntah-sukho 'ntar-aramas tathantar-jyotir eva yah sa yogi brahma-nirvanam brahma-bhuto 'dhigacchati)

That is, only liberated souls who want to render service are manifesting spiritual forms with arms, ears, etc. The other liberated souls who have no bhakti are manifesting a form of pure consciousness which is called sat-chit-ananda. They are "formless" beings because they see God and themself as being One, and formless.

Srila Sanatan Gosvami, in his commentary to verse 2.2.186 of Sri Brhadbhagavatamrtam, quotes Shankaracarya's verse, "mukta api lilaya vigraham kritva bhagavantam bhajanta", which he translated as "Even the liberated assume a form and worship the Lord in his pastimes". Srila Sanatan Gosvami then quotes Srimad Bhagavatam 6.14.5 "muktanam api siddhanam narayana parayana", that is, "The liberated and perfected souls are engaged in Narayan's service." Then Srila Sanatan Gosvami asks himself: "If liberated souls didn't have forms then how could they engage in the Lord's service?" The answer: "Bhagavati layam praptasyapi nri dehasya mahamuneh punar narayana rupena pradurbhavah". Even those who have merged into the Lord have dormant human forms.

Also in Brhad Bhagatamrtam, in the commentary to verse 2.2.207, Sri Sanatana Goswami also wrote:

"O great sage, among many millions who are liberated and perfect in knowledge of liberation, one may be a devotee of Lord Narayana, or Krishna. Such devotees, who are fully peaceful, are extremely rare. Impersonalists generally imagine themselves perfect and liberated, and among them a very few may actually attain impersonal liberation. But those rare souls, like all others, are eternal servants of Hari, the all attractive Lord. Out of millions of such rare liberated impersonalists, one very fortunate soul may realize this natural fact. Since intelligence is dormant in the "merged" soul, it can be awakened. Even the liberated souls who have merged into the formless divine light of the spiritual sky possess their eternal spiritual bodies, complete with spiritual mind and senses. Nothing, not even liberation, can ever deprive a jiva of these assets. The muktas worship Hari's most attractive attributes and glories with spiritual bodies. Such worship is not done with material bodies and senses. Consequently the muktas hear and chant with spiritual bodies and senses."

Srila Sridhar Maharaj has explained that the soul in its original pure state, merged in Brahman, can develop a mood of submission to the Absolute and begin moving towards the gates of Vaikuntha. Or, awakening with a false sense of ego, the soul may descend into the world of duality, birth and death. Again and again the jiva may attain brahmanirvana and then fall again, developing an "exploiting" mentality that drags the soul back into samsara. In this regard, there is the following verse of Srimad Bhagavatam (10.2.32):

ye 'nye 'ravinda-ksa vimukta-maninas

tvayy asta-bhavad avis'uddha-buddhayah

aruhya krcchrena parampadamtatah

patanty adho 'nadrta-yusmad-an'ghrayah

A person may attain liberation in brahman, attaining param-padam, or in other words sayujya mukti. In that state of liberation a soul has no karma, no material bondage. However, "patanty adho 'nadrta-yusmad-an'ghrayah", the liberated souls absorbed in brahman can fall down into the material world and become caught in the networks of karma again and again.

As was just mentioned, Srila Sanatan Goswami quoted Sankara who stated, "mukta api lilaya vigraham kritva bhagavantam bhajanta", or in other words, "Even the liberated assume a form and worship the Lord in his pastimes".

Clearly, some souls in nirvisesha brahma loka will feel an awakenment of a feeling that they should render bhakti to Bhagavan, as in the verse "atmaramas ca munayo..". Awaking from "oneness" many liberated souls such as Sukadev will want to serve Bhagavan, and will conseqeuntly manifest a form with ears for hearing, eyes for seeing and lips for chanting the glories of Bhagavan. This is the message of Srimad Bhagavatam.

There is no statement anywhere in the Bhagavatam saying that a soul can fall from Vaikuntha and enter into samsara, becoming a cockroach, worm or man again and again. But Srimad Bhagavatam (10.2.32) clearly says that a liberated soul can fall from Brahman and enter into samsara.

And in Srimad Bhagavatam (7.1.34) there is also this statement:

Maharaja Yudhisthira said: "For unflinching devotees of the Lord to fall [again] to this material world is impossible. I cannot believe this."

I have put brackets around the word "again" because the word [again] is not mentioned in the Sanskrit. Check the Sanskrit. Souls never fall from Vaikuntha and become involved in samsara. Souls who have no bhakti can fall from Brahman (also known as siddha-loka) but nobody ever falls from Vaikuntha. If they did they Krishna's statement "My devotee will never perish" would be false or untrue.

krsna · January 28, 2007

On Reading Books of our Previous Acaryas :deal:

BY: PURUJIT DASA

Jan 27, USA (SUN) — Did Srila Prabhupada say that we should not read books of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur and other previous acaryas?

Answer: He never said that. :deal:

A fellow Vaisnava wrote to me claiming that Srila Prabhupada instructed us not to read books of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and other previous Acaryas. In the very first Bhagavatam class I attended years ago, senior Vaisnava stated that we should carefully study all Srila Prabhupada's books and than carefully study everything ever written by the previous Acaryas. My understanding was and is, that Srila Prabhupada wanted us to do so. So how is that Srila Prabhupada, our Sampradaya Acarya "said" that we should not read books of our previous Acaryas? Unfortunately, I have heard similar preposterous claims before and conducted a research to find out the exact wording Srila Prabhupada used in this regard. Actually, Srila Prabhupada said that "you should read"and that "he never said that".

My original response to my old friend contained 4(four) out of several references relevant to this issue. I am glad to present these excerpts for the pleasure of participating respected Vaisnavas and Vaisnavis. Here it is: (italics mine):

Reference # 1: "False devotees may think that simply shedding tears will lead one to the transcendental plane, even if one has not had a factual change in heart, but such a practice is useless if there is no transcendental realization. False devotees, lacking the conclusion of transcendental knowledge, think that artificially shedding tears will deliver them. Similarly, other false devotees think that studying books of the previous acaryas is unadvisable, like studying dry empiric philosophies. But Srila Jiva Gosvami, following the previous acaryas,, has inculcated the conclusions of the scriptures in the six theses called the Sat-sandarbhas. False devotees who have very little knowledge of such conclusions fail to achieve pure devotion for want of zeal in accepting the favorable directions for devotional service given by self-realized devotees. Such false devotees are like impersonalists, who also consider devotional service no better than ordinary fruitive actions." (Cc.Adi. 2.117,purport)

Reference # 2:"Within the past five hundred years, many erudite scholars and acaryas like Jiva Gosvami, Sanatana Gosvami, Visvanatha Cakravarti, Vallabhacarya, and many other distinguished scholars even after the time of Lord Caitanya made elaborate commentaries on the Bhagavatam. And the serious student would do well to attempt to go through them to better relish the transcendental messages." (S.B. 1.1.1, purport)

Reference # 3: "In Bhagavad-gita, Thirteenth Chapter, it is clearly stated that one should execute devotional service and advance on the path of spiritual knowledge by accepting the acarya. Acaryopasanam: one should worship an acarya, a spiritual master who knows things as they are. The spiritual master must be in the disciplic succession from Krsna. The predecessors of the spiritual master are his spiritual master, his grand spiritual master, his great-grand spiritual master and so on, who form the disciplic succession of acaryas.

It is recommended herewith that all the acaryas be given the highest respect. It is stated, gurusu nara-matih. Gurusu means "unto the acaryas ," and nara-matih means "thinking like a common man." To think of the Vaisnavas, the devotees, as belonging to a particular caste or community, to think of the acaryas as ordinary men or to think of the Deity in the temple as being made of stone, wood or metal, is condemned. Niyamena: one should offer the greatest respect to the acaryas according to the standard regulations." (S.B.3.29.17, purport)

Paramahamsa: Srila Prabhupada. I remember once I heard a tape where you told us that we should not try to read the books of previous acaryas.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Amogha</B>: That we should not try to read Bhaktivinoda's books or earlier books of other, all acaryas. So I was just wondering...

Prabhupada: I never said that.

Amogha: You didn't say that? Oh.

Prabhupada: How is that?

Amogha: I thought you said that we should not read the previous acaryas' books.

Prabhupada: No, you should read.

Amogha: We should.

Prabhupada: It is misunderstanding

.... ...

Prabhupada: No. Who said that? That is wrong. We are following previous acaryas. I never said that.

(Morning Walk, Perth,13th of May, 1975)

theist · February 10, 2007

Copied from the Sampradaya Sun.

....devotees interested in apparent logical contradictions surrounding the "fall of the jiva" read the following paper on the topic, which Srila Prabhupada had sent to devotees in Australia in 1972 to resolve controversies that arose among them about this topic. The paper came as an attachment to a letter from Srila Prabhupada to Madhudvisa dasa dated June 6, 1972.” Note: here is that attachment letter.

Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic

"We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position.
Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.
We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed.
So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, emerging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons. This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position.
So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming.
Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna. So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krsna consciousness and immediately join Krsna. Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased, better to spend time curing the disease.
On the top of the tree there is a nice tal-fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down, Some panditas, big big learned scholars saw this and discussed: the fruit fell due to the crow agitating the limb. No, the fruit fell simultaneously with the crow landing and frightened the crow so he flew away. No, the fruit was ripe and the weight of the crow landing broke it from the branch, and so on and so on. What is the use of such discussions? So whether you were in the Brahmasayujya or with Krsna in His lila, at the moment you are in neither, so the best policy is to develop your Krsna consciousness and go there, never mind what is your origin.
Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila--both may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery. But at the present moment we are in Maya's clutches, so at present our only hope is to become Krsna conscious and go back to Home, back to Godhead. The real position is servant of Krsna, and servant of Krsna means in Krsna lila. Directly or indirectly, always we are serving Krsna's lila. Even in dream. Just like we cannot go out of the sun when it is daytime, so where is the chance of going out of Krsna lila? The cloud may be there, it may become very gray and dim, but still the sunlight is there, everywhere, during the daytime. Because I am part and parcel of Krsna, I am always connected. My finger, even though it may be diseased, remains part and parcel of my body. Therefore, we try to treat it, cure it, because it is part and parcel. So Krsna comes Himself when we forget Him, or He sends His representative.
Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna. Cause and effect are both Krsna. Just like cotton becomes thread and thread becomes cloth, still, the original cause is cotton. Therefore, everything is Krsna in the ultimate sense. When we cannot contact Krsna personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside Krsna's lila. But differences we see under different conditions. Just like in the pool of water and in the mirror the same me is reflecting, but in different reflections. One is shimmering, unsteady, one is clear and fixed. Except for being in Krsna consciousness, we cannot see our actual position rightly, therefore the learned man sees all living entities as the same parts and parcels of Krsna. Material existence is impersonal because my real personality is covered. But we should think that because I am now covered by this clay, I am diseased, and we should think that I must get to business to get myself uncovered, not wonder how I got this way. Now the fruit is there, take it and enjoy, that is your first business. God is not bound by cause. He can change, He is the Cause of all Causes. Now don't waste your time with this "Kaka taliya nyaya," crows and tal-fruit logic."

krsna · February 11, 2007

Can you believe that KRSNA can excumunicate a 'jiva spirit soul' from playing in rasa-lila? :crying2: Can you imagine yourself 'blooping' from Vraja-lila vilasa? :idea:

That would mean that MAYA is more powerful than KRSNA. :eek: That is mayavada.

Especially when Srila Prabhupada states so clearly in his Srimad Bhagavatam purport:deal: that...'no one falls from Vaikuntha' :pray:

theist · February 11, 2007

If you had just read Crow and Tal Fruit Logic posted above I doubt you would have these questions.

krsna · February 11, 2007

That is the question: To BE Or not to BE?

Are you a soul that was once with Krsna's personal internal energy and then by Maya's influence suddenly expelled because of envy, lust, anger, illusion and greed...etc? :confused: It'a as preposterous as saying that a conditioned soul can attain pure love for God simply by reading Srila Prabhupada's books and not take diksa initiation from a bona-fide guru! :smash:

The rtviks and covered rtviks are having a field day with this apa-siddhanta-cum-mayavada conclusion. :pray:

February 16, 2007

Origin of the Soul is from Brahmasayujya?

BY: MAHESH RAJA

Feb 14, CANADA (SUN) — What makes them think that the origin of the soul is from Brahmasayujya? Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his origin.

Generally speaking it is the Gaudiya Math non-realized Sridhara Maharaja, Puri Maharaja, and Narayana Maharaja followers who think this way because this is what they are taught. Let's examine WHY they think the way they do:

Srimad Bhagavatam 8.4.13 P - Gajendra Returns to the Spiritual World:

"When a devotee gets liberation, he becomes free from material contamination and engages as a servant of the Lord. This is explained in Srimad-Bhagavatam (2.10.6): muktir hitvanyatha rupam svarupena vyavasthitih. The word svarupa refers to sarupya-mukti--going back home, back to Godhead, and remaining the Lord's eternal associate, having regained a spiritual body exactly resembling that of the Lord, with four hands, holding the sankha, cakra, gada and padma.

The difference between the mukti of the impersonalist and that of the devotee is that the devotee is immediately appointed an eternal servant of the Lord, whereas the impersonalist, although merging in the effulgence of the brahmajyoti, is still insecure and therefore generally falls again to this material world. Aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah patanty adho 'nadrta-yusmad-anghrayah (Bhag. 10.2.32). Although the impersonalist rises to the Brahman effulgence and enters into that effulgence, he has no engagement in the service of the Lord, and therefore he is again attracted to materialistic philanthropic activities. Thus he comes down to open hospitals and educational institutions, feed poor men and perform similar materialistic activities, which the impersonalist thinks are more precious than serving the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Anadrta-yusmad-anghrayah. The impersonalists do not think that the service of the Lord is more valuable than serving the poor man or starting a school or hospital. Although they say brahma satyam jagan mithya--"Brahman is real, and the material world is false"--they are nonetheless very eager to serve the false material world and neglect the service of the lotus feet of the Supreme Personality of Godhead."

Journey of Self-Discovery 5.2 - The Way of Yoga:

"It's just like the astronauts who go higher and still higher--twenty-five thousand or thirty thousand or a hundred thousand miles up. But they have to come to rest on some planet. So coming to rest is required. In the impersonal form the resting place is uncertain. Therefore the Bhagavatam says, aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah. Even after so much endeavor, if the impersonalist gets into the spiritual world and remains in that impersonal form, the risk is patanty adhah, that he will come down into material existence again. Why? Anadrta-yusmad-anghrayah: Because he has neglected to serve the Supreme Lord with love and devotion.

So, as long as we are here we have to practice loving Krsna, the Supreme Lord. Then we can enter the spiritual planets. This is the training. If you are not trained in that way, then by impersonal endeavor you can enter into the spiritual kingdom, but there is the risk of falling down again--because that loneliness will create some disturbance, and you'll try to have association. And because you have no association with the Supreme Lord, you'll have to come back and associate with this material world.

So better that we know the nature of our constitutional position. Our constitutional position is that we want eternity, we want complete knowledge, and we want pleasure also. If we are kept alone, we cannot have pleasure. We'll feel uncomfortable, and for want of pleasure we'll accept any kind of material pleasure. That is the risk."

710815SB.LON Lectures:

So because it is not fully realized, therefore such living entities who take sayujya-mukti, they again fall down in due course of time. Because he doesn't get in the sayujya-mukti the other two parts, component parts of his life, blissfulness and knowledge, full knowledge. Aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah patanty adhah anadrta-yusmad-anghrayah. The impersonalist Mayavadis, they undergo severe austerities, penances, and rise up to the Brahman effulgence, becomes merged into it, but again falls down. Just like the spark: it enters the flame of the fire, but there is again chance of falling down.

So sayujya-mukti... Sarupya-mukti, to have the... For Vaisnavas, they don't accept this sayujya-mukti, to merge into the existence of the Lord. They accept sarupya-mukti. Sarupya-mukti means to have the same features of the body like Visnu. In Vaikunthalokas all the living entities, devotees, they have got four hands. And only in Krsnaloka, Krsna has got two hands and His devotees also have two hands. In other lokas, Vaikunthalokas... There are innumerable Vaikuntha planets, Narayana is the predominating Deity, Laksmi-Narayana. And those who enter such planets, they get the same bodily feature, exactly looking like Narayana. You have seen the picture of the Visnudutas who came to deliver Ajamila. They were exactly looking like Narayana. The same helmets, the same ornaments, exactly. You can understand. Just like your president or queen, if you are also dressed, you'll also look like queen. Or if you are dressed, you'll look like the president. But that does not mean you are president or you are queen, simply by dressing. Similarly, although the devotees and the living entities, they get the same feature of the body just like Narayana, Visnu, they're not visnu-tattva. That is called sayujya, sarupya. Similarly, salokya, to live in the same planet. Samipya, to live nearby, near exactly with Narayana. Just like we are living together, similarly, you can live with Narayana, samipya, side by side. These are the different kinds of liberation."

From the above it is very clear that the followers of those Gaudiya math maharajas are taught the impersonal contamination: opposite understanding from Prabhupadanugas. THEY ARE TAUGHT ABOUT HOW IMPERSONALIST FALLS DOWN AND THUS THEY ARE CONSIDERED AS HOW THEY CAME DOWN IN THE SAME WAY - ALSO.

So, Prabhupadanugas are most fortunate, having been taught from the realized Maha-bhagavata Srila Prabhupada, "Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport."

Srila Prabhupada makes it soooo easy to understand:

Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic

We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position.

Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.

We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed.

So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, emerging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons. This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position.

So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming.

Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna. So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krsna consciousness and immediately join Krsna. Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased, better to spend time curing the disease.

On the top of the tree there is a nice tal-fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down, Some panditas, big big learned scholars saw this and discussed: the fruit fell due to the crow agitating the limb. No, the fruit fell simultaneously with the crow landing and frightened the crow so he flew away. No, the fruit was ripe and the weight of the crow landing broke it from the branch, and so on and so on. What is the use of such discussions? So whether you were in the Brahmasayujya or with Krsna in His lila, at the moment you are in neither, so the best policy is to develop your Krsna consciousness and go there, never mind what is your origin.

Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila--both may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery. But at the present moment we are in Maya's clutches, so at present our only hope is to become Krsna conscious and go back to Home, back to Godhead. The real position is servant of Krsna, and servant of Krsna means in Krsna lila. Directly or indirectly, always we are serving Krsna's lila. Even in dream. Just like we cannot go out of the sun when it is daytime, so where is the chance of going out of Krsna lila? The cloud may be there, it may become very gray and dim, but still the sunlight is there, everywhere, during the daytime. Because I am part and parcel of Krsna, I am always connected. My finger, even though it may be diseased, remains part and parcel of my body. Therefore, we try to treat it, cure it, because it is part and parcel. So Krsna comes Himself when we forget Him, or He sends His representative.

Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna. Cause and effect are both Krsna. Just like cotton becomes thread and thread becomes cloth, still, the original cause is cotton. Therefore, everything is Krsna in the ultimate sense. When we cannot contact Krsna personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside Krsna's lila. But differences we see under different conditions. Just like in the pool of water and in the mirror the same me is reflecting, but in different reflections. One is shimmering, unsteady, one is clear and fixed. Except for being in Krsna consciousness, we cannot see our actual position rightly, therefore the learned man sees all living entities as the same parts and parcels of Krsna. Material existence is impersonal because my real personality is covered. But we should think that because I am now covered by this clay, I am diseased, and we should think that I must get to business to get myself uncovered, not wonder how I got this way. Now the fruit is there, take it and enjoy, that is your first business. God is not bound by cause. He can change, He is the Cause of all Causes. Now don't waste your time with this "Kaka taliya nyaya," crows and tal-fruit logic.

Shakti-Fan · February 16, 2007

...Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila--both may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery. But at the present moment we are in Maya's clutches, so at present our only hope is to become Krsna conscious and go back to Home, back to Godhead. The real position is servant of Krsna, and servant of Krsna means in Krsna lila. Directly or indirectly, always we are serving Krsna's lila. Even in dream. Just like we cannot go out of the sun when it is daytime, so where is the chance of going out of Krsna lila? The cloud may be there, it may become very gray and dim, but still the sunlight is there, everywhere, during the daytime. Because I am part and parcel of Krsna, I am always connected. My finger, even though it may be diseased, remains part and parcel of my body. Therefore, we try to treat it, cure it, because it is part and parcel. So Krsna comes Himself when we forget Him, or He sends His representative.

Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna. Cause and effect are both Krsna. Just like cotton becomes thread and thread becomes cloth, still, the original cause is cotton. Therefore, everything is Krsna in the ultimate sense. When we cannot contact Krsna personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside Krsna's lila. But differences we see under different conditions. Just like in the pool of water and in the mirror the same me is reflecting, but in different reflections. One is shimmering, unsteady, one is clear and fixed. Except for being in Krsna consciousness, we cannot see our actual position rightly, therefore the learned man sees all living entities as the same parts and parcels of Krsna. Material existence is impersonal because my real personality is covered. But we should think that because I am now covered by this clay, I am diseased, and we should think that I must get to business to get myself uncovered, not wonder how I got this way. Now the fruit is there, take it and enjoy, that is your first business. God is not bound by cause. He can change, He is the Cause of all Causes. Now don't waste your time with this "Kaka taliya nyaya," crows and tal-fruit logic.

If you take the side that we were in Krsna lila in Goloka Vrndavana "the Crows and Tal-Fruit" statements of Srila Prabhupada seem at first glance to support your contention. But Srila Prabhupada never says Krsna lila in Goloka Vrndavana. He only says "Krsna lila". Then he defines Krsna lila in relation to his previous statements, "The real position is servant of Krsna, and servant of Krsna means in Krsna lila. Directly or indirectly, always we are serving Krsna's lila." Now the certainty of "Krsna lila in Goloka Vrndavana" as the jiva's origin being proven by Srila Prabhupada's Crows and Tal-fruit Logic statements begins to fade for those who try to think beyond a superficial level. Those who wish to take the superficial approach will have to assume that the statements that we read in the English translations of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakurs "Jaiva Dharma", are the result of somekind of sinister conspiricy by "unrealized" Gaudiya Math translators. Srila Prabhupada wanted to engage those who would come to either conclusion in his (as Krsna's representative) and Krsna's service.

Yet the contempory condition is a kind of spiritual anarchy for those of a certain ilk. Now, and for the last thirty years they have been drinking the intoxicating brew of their own delusions. As Srila Sridhar Maharaja said some quarter of a century ago, "they are defending an imaginary Prabhupada". While doing so they are and have been for thirty years mounting a campaign against the real Gaudiya Siddhanta.

February 16, 2007

Origin of the Soul is from Brahmasayujya?
BY: MAHESH RAJA

Feb 14, CANADA (SUN) — What makes them think that the origin of the soul is from Brahmasayujya? Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his origin.

Generally speaking it is the Gaudiya Math non-realized Sridhara Maharaja, Puri Maharaja, and Narayana Maharaja followers who think this way because this is what they are taught.

Here's the problem: they were taught this by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura, in his Jaiva Dharma.. If Bhaktivinode is bogus, then so are all his spiritual descendants. However, if he is bona-fide, then we are left with one of two conclusions:

1. Mahesh Raja's analysis is not correct, and he is misunderstanding Prabhupada.

2. Prabhupada is bogus.

With Prabhupada no longer present in his vapuh form to correct those who misconstrue his vani, it is essential that those who claim to represent him are careful in how they do so.

We aren't living in 1967 anymore. People can see for themselves that there are living examples of many Gaudiya Matha sadhus who are self-realized, and who have transmitted their realizations to others -- to disciples who aren't child-rapists, drug-smugglers or short-change artists.

As a result, "supporters" of Prabhupada need to be careful that they do not, by their misrepresentations of Prabhupada, push people into the mistaken conclusion that Prabhupada is bogus. Those who aggressively put erroneous conclusions into Prabhupada's mouth are putting many innocent people's spiritual lives at risk.

theist · February 16, 2007

Now don't waste your time with this "Kaka taliya nyaya," crows and tal-fruit logic.

THIS is Srila Prabhupada's conclusion on the whole debate.

February 16, 2007

Consulting Guru, Sadhu and Sastra

BY: PUNDARIKAKSA DASI

Feb 12, USA (SUN) — I would like to thank Mahesh Raja for presenting his ideas in "My Bhakta Never Perishes". But I find the things he wrote puzzling. He argued that when a person is in the position of Brahma (the creator) he may choose to become a non-devotee and subsequently fall down to become a "worm of stool". Mahesh Raja said "A Brahma CAN choose to be NON-devotee." But demigods in the role of Brahma are all jivas living in material universes; they are not liberated souls in the spiritual world. So I fail to understand how the fact that a demigod Brahma can fall down into Maya supports the proposal of Mahesh Raja that all the souls in the material universes have fallen down from Vaikuntha.

What I find much more disturbing, however, is Mahesh Raja's suggestion that Srila Prabhupada presented "opposite statements" to what the previous acaryas taught. He argues that previous acaryas were preaching according to time, place and circumstances, and that we should only read the writings of Srila Prabhupada. Before now, I have not encountered any devotee of Srila Prabhupada saying that Srila Prabhupada's statements might be "opposite" to other acaryas of the past. I was under the impression that Srila Prabhupada repeated a timeless message of Truth which is the same message that was taught by the previous acaryas. What is more, when Srila Prabhupada came to the West he also presented Krsna Consciousness according to time, place and circumstances. And for members of the younger generation such as myself who never met Srila Prabhupada, His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada also is a previous acarya.

Mahesh Raja wrote:

"Problems with devotees reading the other acaryas books means they sometimes get confused when they see Srila Prabhupada's opposite statements. They want to believe in their own mind-set they therefore choose instead of quoting Srila Prabhupada the other books they read. We do not know if the previous acaryas were preaching according to time place and circumstances or interpretations. BUT WHAT WE DO KNOW IS SRILA PRABHUPADA KNEW THESE PREVIOUS ACARYAS FAR BETTER THEN US CONDITIONED SOULS. We consequently have to accept Srila Prabhupada's words as FINAL."

Mahesh Raja, I respect your right to express your opinion. But I strongly disagree with your thinking. The assertion that everyone should accept this interpretation of Srila Prabhupada's teachings about souls falling down from Vaikuntha, while ignoring many quotes and references where Srila Prabhupada says that nobody can fall from Vaikuntha, is improper.

Mahesh Raja presented the quote below, and I must admit that I find what His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada said is very troubling.

760805BG.PAR Lectures:

Translator:"The question is: did we fall in this material world to find some highest pleasure? His question is: did we fall in the material world to experience something which is higher?

Prabhupada: I do not follow.

Yogesvara: I think his question is the husband will leave the wife because he is dissatisfied. But if our love for Krsna originally is perfect why should we have left?

Prabhupada: YOU HAVE LEFT... JUST LIKE SOMEBODY IS DAILY EATING PURIS AND HALAVA, AND HE WANTS TO EAT PUFFED RICE. SO THAT TENDENCY IS THERE. THAT IS ALSO A SIDE OF ENJOYMENT. "I am eating daily this, let me eat this." What is the difficulty? That tendency is there. That is also enjoyment. After all, we are hankering after enjoyment, anandamayo 'bhyasat. So different taste we desire, that "Let me taste this, let me taste that, let me taste that." So the real basic principle is enjoyment, sense enjoyment. That's all."

I have never seen this quote before today. I am very troubled by the idea that someone in the spiritual world could hanker and desire to experience a higher type of enjoyment than what they are feeling in the spiritual world. I have always heard that souls in the spiritual world are filled with bliss and it feels very disturbing to hear that a soul can decide to leave the spiritual world in order to search for a superior type of enjoyment in the material world. If this really is the case, if souls in the spiritual world consciously think the enjoyment that people enjoy in the material world as a superior type of enjoyment, then why should anyone of us bother making the effort to go Back to Godhead? My own feeling is that according to time, place and circumstance Srila Prabhupada was trying to express a particular idea to a particular disciple; but that this idea that souls in Vaikuntha want to come to earth so they can have greater enjoyment is not something I am prepared to accept. Souls in the material world suffer birth, death, old age and disease. There is no real happiness in the material world. The idea that an associate of the Lord would come here for enjoyment is not taught anywhere in all of the Vedic scriptures, so I cannot believe in this.

When we find conflicting statements in the writing or words of an acarya we need to consult with guru, sadhu and sastra to find out what the proper conclusion is. Otherwise we will be deviating from the true religion of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and creating a false religion instead.

I find the writings of the previous acaryas inspiring. Writing in the English language in 1869, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur, wrote:

No book is without its errors. God's revelation is absolute truth, but it is scarcely received and preserved in its natural purity. We have been advised in the 14th Chapter of 11th Skandha of the Bhagavata to believe that truth when revealed is absolute, but it gets the tincture of the nature of the receiver in course of time and is converted into error by continual exchange of hands from age to age. New revelations, therefore, are continually necessary in order to keep truth in its original purity. We are thus warned to be careful in our studies of old authors, however wise they are reputed to be. Here we have full liberty to reject the wrong idea, which is not sanctioned by the peace of conscience. Vyasa was not satisfied with what he collected in the Vedas, arranged in the Puranas and composed in the Mahabharata. The peace of his conscience did not sanction his labors. It told him from within, "No, Vyasa! You cannot rest contented with the erroneous picture of truth which was necessarily presented to you by the sages of bygone days. You must yourself knock at the door of the inexhaustible store of truth from which the former ages drew their wealth. Go, go up to the fountainhead of truth, where no pilgrim meets with disappointment of any kind." Vyasa did it and obtained what he wanted. We have been all advised to do so.

When I read the words of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur I feel he is helping me to better understand the teachings of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada. Many other devotees with an open mind study the wonderful teachings of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur and find his words inspiring. But then some other devotees want to keep their eyes closed. And their minds closed too. Tatastu.

February 16, 2007

Formerly We Were with Krsna in His Lila or Sport

BY: MAHESH RAJA

Feb 15, UK (SUN) — A reply to Srimati Pundarikaksa dasi Prabhu.

Pundarikaksa dasi wrote:

“So I fail to understand how the fact that a demigod Brahma can fall down into Maya supports the proposal of Mahesh Raja that all the souls in the material universes have fallen down from Vaikuntha.”

In my article please read carefully: na me **bhaktah** pranasyati - Bhagavad gita 9.31

I have quoted Srila Prabhupada there who states with irrefutable evidence (by the way - why did you ignore this?).

Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic

Formerly We Were with Krsna in His Lila or Sport

So since FORMERLY we were with Krsna in HIS LILA we have to understand HOW from that LILA we came down to this material world.

Just to reaffirm the meaning of LILA:

SB 1.2.34 S - Divinity and Divine Service lila--pastimes

SB 2.2.12 S - The Lord in the Heart lila--pastimes

Lila in spiritual world does NOT mean HALO, neither does it mean BRAHMASAYUJYA. To say that means word jugglery/mental speculation.

So WHAT is the FIRST beginning body in this material world from this LILA?

740606BG.GEN Lectures:

"Just like father gives some capital to the son: "You do some business." Now, you lose the money or increase it hundred times; that depends on you. Similarly, Krsna has given us. We wanted to enjoy this material world, and Krsna has given us. THE FIRST BEGINNING BODY IS BRAHMA, VERY EXALTED BODY. BUT ON ACCOUNT OF OUR ABOMINABLE ACTIVITIES, FROM BRAHMA, WE COME DOWN TO BECOME THE WORM OF STOOL. This is called karma, ksetra."

Now, please chant Hare Krsna!

Next issue:

Pundarikaksa dasi wrote:

“And for members of the younger generation such as myself who never met Srila Prabhupada, His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada also is a previous acarya.”

68-04-12 Letter to Dayananda:

"Regarding parampara system: there is nothing to wonder for big gaps. Just like we belong to the Brahma Sampradaya, so we accept it from Krishna to Brahma, Brahma to Narada, Narada to Vyasadeva, Vyasadeva to Madhva, and between Vyasadeva and Madhva there is a big gap. But it is sometimes said that Vyasadeva is still living, and Madhva was fortunate enough to meet him directly. In a similar way, we find in the Bhagavad-gita that the Gita was taught to the sungod, some millions of years ago, but Krishna has mentioned only three names in this parampara system--namely, Vivasvan, Manu, and Iksvaku; and so these gaps do not hamper from understanding the parampara system. We have to pick up the prominent acaryas, and follow from him. There are many branches also from the parampara system, and it is not possible to record all the branches and sub-branches in the disciplic succession. We have to pick up from the authority of the acharya in whatever sampradaya we belong to."

My questions to Pundarikaksa dasi:

1) Please explain in detail how is Srila Prabhupada a previous acarya and not current?

2) Please give name of this current “acarya” since you say Srila Prabhupada is previous acarya.

3) And please specify how this “acarya” is prominent. What is accomplishment?

4) Does anyone quote him. If not, why not?

5) Please give a detailed comparison of this current “acarya” with Srila Prabhupada. What did he do that makes him prominent?

Pundarikaksa dasi wrote:

“Mahesh Raja, I respect your right to express your opinion. But I strongly disagree with your thinking. The assertion that everyone should accept this interpretation of Srila Prabhupada's teachings about souls falling down from Vaikuntha, while ignoring many quotes and references where Srila Prabhupada says that nobody can fall from Vaikuntha, is improper. “

Please read answers to my article, "Apparent Contradiction and Reconciliation".

Pundarikaksa dasi wrote:

“Mahesh Raja presented the quote below, and I must admit that I find what His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada said is very troubling.”

760805BG.PAR Lectures:

Translator: "The question is: did we fall in this material world to find some highest pleasure? His question is: did we fall in the material world to experience something which is higher?

Prabhupada: I do not follow.

Yogesvara: I think his question is the husband will leave the wife because he is dissatisfied. But if our love for Krsna originally is perfect why should we have left?

Prabhupada: YOU HAVE LEFT... JUST LIKE SOMEBODY IS DAILY EATING PURIS AND HALAVA, AND HE WANTS TO EAT PUFFED RICE. SO THAT TENDENCY IS THERE. THAT IS ALSO A SIDE OF ENJOYMENT. "I am eating daily this, let me eat this." What is the difficulty? That tendency is there. That is also enjoyment. After all, we are hankering after enjoyment, anandamayo 'bhyasat. So different taste we desire, that "Let me taste this, let me taste that, let me taste that." So the real basic principle is enjoyment, sense enjoyment. That's all."

May be troubling for you - I do not find it troubling AT ALL.

Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic:

BECAUSE HE FALLS DOWN FROM BRAHMASAYUJYA, HE THINKS THAT MAYBE HIS ORIGIN, BUT HE DOES NOT REMEMBER THAT BEFORE THAT EVEN HE WAS WITH KRSNA.

730806BG.LON Lectures:

"Because we have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago."

Srila Prabhupada ki Jaaaaai!

Bhakta Devarsi · February 16, 2007

I deleted this post and it is now under it's own topic called "response to "Krsna" regarding initiation".

February 16, 2007

EDITORIAL

June 12, 2002 VNN7382 Related VNN Stories

The Jiva From Tatastha-Sakti

BY KRSNA DASI

EDITORIAL, Jun 12 (VNN) — My son and I had this conversation and I thought you might like to put it on VNN. Hare Krsna

Krsna dasi (Not my real name, they might kick my son out of school)

Son: Mom in school today we were learning a new verse.

Mom: Which one:

Son: jivera svarupa haya nitya krsna dasa. Tatastha-sakti jata acintya bhedabheda-prakasa

Mom: I remember memorizing that back in 1972, isn't that from Caitanya Caritamrita?

Son: Yea, Madhya 20-108. I have a question though.

Mom: Ah, my little "brainiac" What's your question today.

Son: Don't get mad at me. I have heard you and dad arguing about this.

Mom: Hey, we don't argue we discuss.

Son: Yea, whatever.

Mom: Go on anyway.

Son: So in this verse, it says "Tatastha-sakti jata acintya bhedabheda-prakasa"

Mom: The jiva is "Tatastha-sakti" and the eternal servant of Krsna. But sometimes because of our marginal nature we forget.

Son: That's the point dad says we fell from the spiritual world.

Mom: That's what the GBC says.

Son: But our teacher says that in the Brahma Samhita the tatastha is the line between the ocean and the shore. I don't understand.

"Hence the jiva potency, though very small in magnitude, is still superior to acit potency or Maya. This potency has another name, viz., tatastha or marginal potency being located on the line demarcating the spheres of the spiritual and mundane potencies." - Brahma Samhita

Mom: Let's get the book and read that verse.

Verse 5 TEXT 21

sa nityo nitya-sambandhah

prakrtis ca paraiva sa

TRANSLATION

The same jiva is eternal and is for eternity and without a beginning joined to the Supreme Lord by the tie of an eternal kinship. He is transcendental spiritual potency.

PURPORT

Just as the sun is eternally associated with his rays so the transcendental Supreme Lord is eternally joined with the jivas. The jivas are the infinitesimal particles of His spiritual effulgence and are, therefore, not perishable like mundane things. Jivas, being particles of Godhead's effulgent rays, exhibit on a minute scale the qualities of the Divinity. Hence jivas are identical with the principles of knowledge, knower, egoism, enjoyer, meditator and doer. Krsna is the all-pervading, all-extending Supreme Lord; while jivas have a different nature from His, being His atomic particles. That eternal relationship consists in this that the Supreme Lord is the eternal master and jivas are His eternal servants. Jivas have also sufficient eligibility in respect of the mellow quality of the Divinity. Apareyam itas tv anyam prakrtim viddhi me param. By this verse of the Gita it is made known that jivas are His transcendental potency. All the qualities of the unalloyed soul are above the eightfold qualities such as egotism, etc., pertaining to His acit potency. Hence the jiva potency. though very small in magnitude, is still superior to acit potency or Maya. This potency has another name, viz., tatastha or marginal potency. Being located on the line demarcating the spheres of the spiritual and mundane potencies. He is susceptible to the influence of the material energy owing to his small magnitude. But so long as he remains submissive to Krsna, the Lord of Maya, he is not liable to the influence of Maya. The worldly afflictions, births and rebirths are the concomitants of the fettered condition of souls fallen into the clutches of the deluding potency from a time that has no beginning.

Son: So who is right? Dad says Srila Prabhupada said "Back to Godhead." Does that mean we came from Krsna loka?

Mom: Go get the Veda base CD and see what Srila Prabhupada says about tatastha.

Son: Well He explains there are three principal potencies, cit-sakti, maya-sakti and tatastha-sakti.

Mom: The cit-sakti is the spiritual world and maya-sakti is the material world.

Son: Srila Prabhupada says "in the Bhagavad-Gita and all other Vedic literatures, the living entities are generated from the tatastha energy of the Lord."

Mom: Where did you find that?

Son: SB 3.7.9 Purport in the chapter "Further Inquires by Vidura"

Mom: So, like I have said all along the jiva is from the spiritual world!

Son: But mom, it says the jiva is from the tatastha.

Mom: Is the tatastha in the material world?

Son: Well, no. It's on the edge according to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's explanation in the Brahma Samhita.

Mom: Is everything coming from Krsna?

Son: Yes.

Mom: So the jiva has always had a relationship with Krsna!

Son: Well, I want a relationship with Krsna in Vrindavan not in the tatastha.

Mom: What do you mean?

Son: I heard in a lecture dad was playing the other night that only in Vaikuntha and Vrindavan can we have a personal relationship with Krsna.

Mom: You're right, Srila Prabhupada always condemned the Mayavadi idea of merging into the Brahman effulgence.

Son: Just like in that purport we read "The jivas are the infinitesimal particles of His spiritual effulgence and are, therefore, not perishable like mundane things."

Mom: Ok, you got me, in the tatastha we are with Krsna's energy, which is the same as Him but different. And when we develop our Krsna consciousness we can go back to Him eternally and have a personal relationship.

Son: So who is right you or dad? Did we fall from Krsna's Vrindavan or come from the tatastha.

Mom: I'll read these quotes you found to your dad tonight. I think he, well both of us just needed to understand the idea of relationship and the nature and position of tatastha shakti.

Mom: Ok, you little spark of tatastha go outside and play.

Son: Will you make pizza for dinner?

Mom: Ok, but you must have salad with sprouts.

Son: Just make what you want, without sprouts.

Quotes from the Folio:

SB 3.2.21 P Remembrance of Lord Krsna

... is the Lord of the three principal potencies, namely cit-sakti, maya-sakti and tatastha-sakti,

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

SB 3.7.9 P Further Inquires by Vidura

... Bhagavad-Gita and all other Vedic literatures, the living entities are generated from the tatastha energy of the Lord

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

NoI 2

... The first is called antaranga-sakti, or the internal potency. The second is called tatastha-sakti, or the marginal potency. The third is called bahiranga-sakti, or the external potency.

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Bs 5.21

... is still superior to acit potency or Maya. This potency has another name, viz., tatastha or marginal potency. being located on the line demarcating the spheres of the spiritual and .

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

710330BG.BOM Lectures ... is apt to fall down sometimes under the clutches of maya, it is called tatastha-sakti. Tatastha-sakti. Just like in the seaside the shore, the beach, sometimes you see it is .

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Maya can cover the individual soul. Therefore because the individual soul is apt to fall down sometimes under the clutches of maya, it is called tatastha-sakti. Tatastha-sakti. Just like in the seaside the shore, the beach, sometimes you see it is covered by water and sometimes it is land; similarly, when we are covered by maya, that is our jiva-bhuta stage, and when there is no more covering, that is brahma-bhuta stage. When we are Krsna conscious, then we are brahma-bhuta, and when we are not Krsna conscious, we are materially conscious, that is maya.

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

So therefore jiva-sakti is called tatastha. Tatastha. Antaranga, bahiranga, tatastha. Parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate, the Absolute Truth has got multi-potencies. They have been summarized into three. First is para-prakrti, spiritual nature, and then the material nature, and another nature, prakrti--we are also prakrti--between the two, tatastha. Just like the beach is between the land and water. Beach is sometimes covered with water, and sometimes it is uncovered; the water is far away. When it is not covered, we call it beach, and it is covered, we call it sea. So similarly, our position is like that, living entities. Although by nature we are para-prakrti, spirit, spirit, but because we have got the tendency to enjoy material nature, therefore we come to this material nature. Therefore our position is in between the spiritual nature and the material nature, tatastha. Tatastha means in between.

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

741219SB.BOM Lectures

... nature, and para-prakrti is the spiritual nature. So therefore jiva-sakti is called tatastha. Tatastha. Antaranga, bahiranga, tatastha. Parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate, the Absolute Truth has got multi-potencies. They have been summarized ... then the material nature, and another nature, prakrti--we are also prakrti--between the two, tatastha. Just like the beach is between the land and water. Beach is sometimes covered with ... material nature. Therefore our position is in between the spiritual nature and the material nature, tatastha. Tatastha means in between.

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

701216SB.SUR Lectures

... immediately says, gives to you the highest philosophy, jivera svarupa haya nitya krsna dasa. Tatastha-sakti jata acintya bhedabheda-prakasa. In two lines He has given the whole idea

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Prabhupada: Jivera svarupa haya nitya krsna dasa, tatastha-sakti acintya bhedabheda, tatastha-sakti prakasa. The jiva is the manifestation of the marginal potency of Krsna. Krsna has many potencies. Parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate--in the Vedic injunction. The Absolute Truth has many varieties of energy. Those energies are consolidated into three divisions: spiritual energy, material energy and marginal energy. So these jivas are products of this marginal energy.

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

710214CC.GOR Lectures

... Narayana," or Narayana position, that is falldown. There are innumerable examples. So we are tatastha-sakti. The idea is... Tatastha means marginal. We can fall down in the material world, and we can raise ourself

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

700510IP.LA Lectures

... multi-energies. All the multi-energies grouped in three headings: antaranga-zakti, bahiranga-sakti, tatastha-sakti. Antaranga-sakti means internal energy, bahiranga sakti means external energy, and tatastha-sakti means these living entities

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

770204AR.CAL Lectures

So the living entities, they are called tatastha-sakta. Parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate. God has many potencies. They have been divided into three primarily: external, internal, and marginal; bahiranga-sakti, antaranga-sakti, and tatastha-sakti. So we jivas, living entities, we are also another energy of Krsna, in between

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

681002LE.SEA Lectures

... here is one word used, marginal potency. Marginal potency, the exact Sanskrit word is tatastha. Just like at the end of the land, the sea begins. So there is a

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Prabhupada: Now here is one word used, marginal potency. Marginal potency, the exact Sanskrit word is tatastha. Just like at the end of the land, the sea begins. So there is a marginal land. Just you go on the coast of the Pacific beach, you'll find some land. Sometimes it is covered by water and sometimes it is open land. This is marginal. Similarly, we spirit souls, although we are constitutionally one with God, but sometimes we are covered by maya and sometimes we are free. Therefore our position is marginal. When we understand our real position, then... The same... Just like the same example. Try to understand. On the beach you'll find a certain portion of land which is sometimes covered by water, and again it is land. Similarly we are sometimes covered by maya, the inferior energy, and sometimes we are free. So we have to maintain that free state. Just like in open land, there is no more water. If you come little far away from the sea water, then there is no more water; it is all land. Similarly, if you keep yourself from the material consciousness, come to the land of spiritual consciousness, or Krsna consciousness, then you keep your freedom. But if you keep yourself on the marginal position, then sometimes you'll be covered by maya and sometimes you'll be free. So that is our position.

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

BS TEXT 21

TEXT

sa nityo nitya-sambandhah

prakrtis ca paraiva sa

SYNONYMS

sah--that (jiva); nityah--eternal; nitya-sambandhah--possessing an eternal relationship; prakrtih--potency; ca--and; para--spiritual; eva--certainly; sa--that.

TRANSLATION

The same jiva is eternal and is for eternity and without a beginning joined to the Supreme Lord by the tie of an eternal kinship. He is transcendental spiritual potency.

PURPORT

Just as the sun is eternally associated with his rays so the transcendental Supreme Lord is eternally joined with the jivas. The jivas are the infinitesimal particles of His spiritual effulgence and are, therefore, not perishable like mundane things. Jivas, being particles of Godhead's effulgent rays, exhibit on a minute scale the qualities of the Divinity. Hence jivas are identical with the principles of knowledge, knower, egoism, enjoyer, meditator and doer. Krsna is the all-pervading, all-extending Supreme Lord; while jivas have a different nature from His, being His atomic particles. That eternal relationship consists in this that the Supreme Lord is the eternal master and jivas are His eternal servants. Jivas have also sufficient eligibility in respect of the mellow quality of the Divinity. Apareyam itas tv anyam prakrtim viddhi me param. By this verse of the Gita it is made known that jivas are His transcendental potency. All the qualities of the unalloyed soul are above the eightfold qualities such as egotism, etc., pertaining to His acit potency. Hence the jiva potency. though very small in magnitude, is still superior to acit potency or Maya. This potency has another name, viz., tatastha or marginal potency. being located on the line demarcating the spheres of the spiritual and mundane potencies. He is susceptible to the influence of the material energy owing to his small magnitude. But so long as he remains submissive to Krsna, the Lord of Maya, he is not liable to the influence of Maya. The worldly afflictions, births and rebirths are the concomitants of the fettered condition of souls fallen into the clutches of the deluding potency from a time that has no beginning.

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

February 16, 2007

that we no longer as a Gaudiya Vaisnava group waste time on this superficial topic. This has been going on sense at least early/mid 70's within ISKCON and I don't know before that, but Srila Prabhupada surelly is not pleased with the waste of time this conversation is. There are much better topics to discuss. I made a quick search of 'crow' and 'fruit'. Mostly the results come back 'crow and tal-fruit' logic.

Made for a good read. Mostly relating to a waste of time discussion like this one is. I thought this below was the best direct reference to the subject at hand. Keep it simple, now move on please.

Letter to: Madhudvisa

--

Unknown Place

Unknown Date

Letter excerpt