Origin of the Living Entity- Oh No! Here we go again about this jiva-tattva issue!!!

[brajeshwara das]

 

our time is far better spent finding a way out of this material world rather than spending countless hours trying to figure out how we got here.

 

I couldn't agree more. It isn't necessary to know how many studs are in each wall when the house is on fire and you are trying to find the exit among the smoke and flames.

[Guest guest]

 

^^True, if all parties involved would agree that it is a waste of time. But in some quarters, this issue is used to disparage other Gaudiya Vaishnava Acaryas for political purposes. In fact, just look at the highly insulting remark that this "mahesh raja" made towards Srila Sridhara Maharaja. On second thought, better not to look at it, as it is not all that healthy for the ol' devotional creeper. The jiva origin is obviously a complex issue, more or less inconceivable, although to a certain extent we can gain some form of intellectual understanding of this if we take into consideration the words of our Acaryas, or even just the many words Srila Prabhupada has written on the issue throughout his books. The "Tal Fruit" paper does not address all the intricacies of the issue. The message I've received from this paper is that our time is far better spent finding a way out of this material world rather than spending countless hours trying to figure out how we got here. For myself, I'm fairly content to accept that I was "with Krsna" at one time, not as a gopi or cowherd boy, but as an infinitesimal spark existing within His (brahman)effulgent halo. We can have differences of opinion on this, but at the same time, we need to be careful not to commit Vaishnava ninda towards other Gaudiya Vaishnava Acaryas due to said disagreement. IMHO.

 

Mahesh Raja makes one point very clear.

 

Srila Prabhupada wanted his disciples to have, on this matter, a perspective that contradicts what Srila Sridhar Maharaja taught.

 

As a result, it is better for faithful disciples of Srila Sridhar Maharaja and Srila Narayana Majaraja and Srila Puri Maharaja NOT TO HEAR from Srila Prabhupada. And it is best for disciples of Srila Prabhupada NOT TO PUSH their guru on the disciples of other gurus, as this will only prompt those disciples to commit the offense of thinking Prabhupada ignorant or deceitful, as they will see how his teachings contradict their guru-varga.

[brajeshwara das]

 

Mahesh Raja makes one point very clear.

 

Srila Prabhupada wanted his disciples to have, on this matter, a perspective that contradicts what Srila Sridhar Maharaja taught.

 

As a result, it is better for faithful disciples of Srila Sridhar Maharaja and Srila Narayana Majaraja and Srila Puri Maharaja NOT TO HEAR from Srila Prabhupada. And it is best for disciples of Srila Prabhupada NOT TO PUSH their guru on the disciples of other gurus, as this will only prompt those disciples to commit the offense of thinking Prabhupada ignorant or deceitful, as they will see how his teachings contradict their guru-varga.

 

Please read through all the posts. It appears Mahesh Raja misrepresents Srila Swami Maharaj. Therefore the one not to hear from is Mahesh Raja.

[Beggar]

 

Mahesh Raja makes one point very clear.

 

Srila Prabhupada wanted his disciples to have, on this matter, a perspective that contradicts what Srila Sridhar Maharaja taught.

 

As a result, it is better for faithful disciples of Srila Sridhar Maharaja and Srila Narayana Majaraja and Srila Puri Maharaja NOT TO HEAR from Srila Prabhupada. And it is best for disciples of Srila Prabhupada NOT TO PUSH their guru on the disciples of other gurus, as this will only prompt those disciples to commit the offense of thinking Prabhupada ignorant or deceitful, as they will see how his teachings contradict their guru-varga.

Mazel tov Guestt on a totally meshugina post. The highly esteemed successor to Srlla Sridhar Maharaja, Srila Govinda Maharaja said that, "Swami Maharaja (Prabhupada) bored a hole through the mountain of western false ego and only then have I been able to come through". This means that all the preachers from India who have gained influence in the west since Prabhupada are all taking his remnants or prasadam. Therefore all the followers of these gurus also have a debt to Prabhupada, and this cannot be diminished. Therefore he is sisksa guru for all of us, so how can we (they,all) not hear from him?

And now for all you in the Vaterland:

Mazel tov Guestt auf einem total meshugina Pfosten. Der in hohem Grade geschätzte Nachfolger Srlla Sridhar zum Maharaja, Srila Govinda Maharaja sagte den, "Swamimaharaja (Prabhupada) bohrte eine Bohrung durch den Berg des westlichen falschen Egos und nur hat dann I, das in der Lage ge$$$WESEN wurde, durch zu kommen". Dies heißt daß alle Prediger von Indien, die Einfluß im Westen gewonnen haben, da alles Prabhupada sind, das seine Reste oder prasadam nimmt. Folglich haben alle Nachfolger dieser Gurus auch eine Schuld zu Prabhupada, und dieses kann nicht vermindert werden. Folglich er ist sisksa Guru für alle uns, also wie kann wir (sie, alle) nicht von ihm hören?

[Shakti-Fan]

Why Prabhupada Called Me to the West (excerpt) <hr> Germany: December 12, 2001

First lecture of the Winter Tour

Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

<hr> I offer millions and millions of heartfelt dandavat pranati, obeisances, unto the lotus feet of my spiritual master, nitya-lila-pravista om visnupada Sri Srimad Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Gosvami Maharaja, and unto my siksa-guru, nitya-lila-pravista om visnupada Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja.

My siksa-guru, Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja, forcibly dragged me to the Western countries. It is only by his mercy that I am going everywhere in the world. So many are hearing from me, only due to him. He especially ordered me, in his last days, to help his disciples and devotees, because he knew they would become very weak. He knew they would give up the mission and object of life that was preached by him.

So many have no faith in the present Iskcon, and so many are quarrelling. Nowadays, the most dangerous element is the rtviks. They think they are the real inheritors of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami's Maharaja's mission, but actually they are against him. Besides them, there are presently so many sahajiyas who preach that Srila Swami Maharaja, Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sara svati Gosvami Thakura, and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura are not in the guru-parampara. These sahajiyas are trying to cut down the tree of bhakti.

Many say that Srila Swami Maharaja was a follower of the rtvik system, but this statement is quite false. Srila Swami Maharaja accepted the guru-parampara, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Sri Nityananda prabhu, and the goal of life as shown by Srila Rupa Gosvami, Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami, the Gita and the Bhagavat. Since Srila Swami Maharaja accepted these principles, how can anyone say he accepted the rtvik system? Nowhere in Srimad Bhagavatam, Gita, or any other scriptures is it stated that the rtvik system has anything to do with the guru-parampara and bhakti. It has no connection with bhakti at all. The rtvik system is only employed for the performance of a fire sacrifice, for the fulfillment of worldly desires (karma-kanda). It is totally irrelevant to our bhakti, to Srimad Bhagavatam, to the Gita, and to our guru parampara. Srila Rupa Gosvami never mentioned anything about the rtvik system in his Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, Ujjvala Nilamani, or in his other books. Srila Sanatana Gosvami has written so many books, but he has never discussed the rtviks. You should therefore be very careful. Don't follow them.

Also, don't follow the sahajiyas. We should be very careful to avoid trying to become 'goopis' or to follow their ideas. Rather, we should try to follow Saptama Gosvami (the Seventh Gosvami), Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, and Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja.

Nowadays there are so many devotees who were personally following your Prabhupada, and by that they came in contact with this transcendental life. But now they are thinking that he was not sarvajna, not all-knowing or omniscient. What was he? Foolish? Ignorant? You know in His boyhood, that Krsna performed so many pastimes in which he appeared like a totally ignorant boy. But that does not mean He is ignorant or that He is not omniscient. And, if He is omniscient, why should His associates not be so? They must be. Some say that if Prabhupada knew that so many sannyasis and others would fall down, he would not have accepted them and given them sannyasa, but this argument is bogus.

It is for this reason, to correct all these misunderstandings, that Srila Swami Maharaja dragged me to the West to preach. He sent me to teach the devotees that they should not be weak, and they should not go to sahajiya bhabijis. They should be very careful. For this purpose, to protect devotees from being misled by the sahajiyas, I have written a book called Prabandha Pancakam, Five Essential Essays. Try to read it very carefully and with firm faith, so that you can defeat all the arguments that these persons are now giving.

Demons come from time to time, and they try to establish that Srimad-Bhagavatam and Bhagavad-Gita are nonsense. They say, "Krsna was a very lusty person." They think that the Krsna of Mahabharata is somewhat better and more authentic than Nanda-nandana, and Yasoda-nandana. They especially say that Krsna's rasa dancing is very bogus. They say, "Srimad-Bhagavatam is not a very authentic book. It is like mythology, and recently written by someone other than Vyasa." Such persons are like Ravana, like Kamsa, Jarasandha, and others; and that is why my siksa-guru, Srila Swami Maharaja, told me, "You must come; otherwise the devotees will be weak and they will not realize the truths of Krsna consciousness. It is for this reason that I am coming and preaching in this old age to fulfill the mission of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja, which is the mission of my guru-varga.

So try to be very strong. Read the books of your Prabhupada, and also my books. My books will give you further strength to defeat all the arguments against him. Don't be weak.

Lady devotees should also be very strong to preach this mission, and at the same time they should try to maintain their lives. They should be like Srila Swami Maharaja's lady devotees, who, although very young girls, preached his mission everywhere.

[srila Maharaja was presented the newly published Harmonist magazine and then commented:] The magazine, Rays of the Harmonist, has now come, and it is so good. It contains very, very good essays and articles by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami, paramapujyapada Srila Sridhara Maharaja, Srila Swami Maharaja, my Gurudeva, Srila Bhakti Pramoda Puri Maharaja, and so on. These articles contain many important topics. Try, therefore, to distribute this magazine. I request Rama-Vijaya prabhu to organize the distribution. Devotees should read them, and they should also distribute them.

[Guest guest]

 

Mazel tov Guestt on a totally meshugina post. The highly esteemed successor to Srlla Sridhar Maharaja, Srila Govinda Maharaja said that, "Swami Maharaja (Prabhupada) bored a hole through the mountain of western false ego and only then have I been able to come through". This means that all the preachers from India who have gained influence in the west since Prabhupada are all taking his remnants or prasadam. Therefore all the followers of these gurus also have a debt to Prabhupada, and this cannot be diminished. Therefore he is sisksa guru for all of us, so how can we (they,all) not hear from him?

 

 

I'm not suggesting Srila Prabhupada isn't a great soul. He is.

 

However, he appears to be great in much the same way the Buddha or Shankaracharya are great. Yes, Krishna used them to carry out His purposes. But he also had them preach things that no Vaishnava should hear or practice.

 

Lord Chaitanya could not have come if the Buddha and Shankaracharya had not come before Him and carried out their missions. But it would be wrong for a follower of Lord Chaitanya to accept the philosophy of the Buddha or Shankaracharya.

 

Similarly, it appears that Krishna used Srila Prabhupada to prepare the West for those who are preaching the uncompromised Gaudiya siddhanta. If you are a drug-addicted hippie, or a follower of Jesus or some bogus impersonalist yoga system, the teachings of Srila Prabhupada will indeed uplift you and prepare you to go back to Godhead.

 

But if you are already a follower of the true Gaudiya siddhanta, you will only be confused if you try to reconcile so many of Srila Prabhupada's "preaching adjustments" and contradictory statements -- it's better just to focus on the real thing being taught by your own guru-varga, and worship Srila Prabhupada from a distance, grateful for the awesome service Lord Nityananda empowered him to do.

[Guest guest]

What happened to the old Shakti-fan? His posts used to be thought out and balanced. Now your doing like Uncle Puru, just cutting and pasting. What is your opinion? If you want to quote, then OK but don't just quote a guru verbatim that you have said that even you cannot fully accept. Its not really fair, you can take 30 sec. to do a cut and paste and then take up a large amount of space. Do you even take the time to fully read what you put up here?

[Beggar]

 

...But if you are already a follower of the true Gaudiya siddhanta, you will only be confused if you try to reconcile so many of Srila Prabhupada's "preaching adjustments" and contradictory statements -- it's better just to focus on the real thing being taught by your own guru-varga, and worship Srila Prabhupada from a distance, grateful for the awesome service Lord Nityananda empowered him to do.

If what you are saying is true, then it is very sad but true:crying2:. My adjustment or attempt to harmonize the contradictions is this: I see Srila Prabhupada as the representative or the most full representation of Krsna in this world in recent times. After all he is shaktyavesa avatara, as first revealed by Srila Sridhar Maharaja. Krsna is always changing, we can never pin him down or really "know" him by our "puppy brains". So Prabhupada is like that. I am sure that Sridhar Maharaja, Puri Maharaja, Kesava Maharaja and their successors, official and unofficial would not accept your theory although it seems plausable at first glance. If a disciple of a current Gaudiya guru his having trouble reconciling the apparent contradictions in Prabhupada's words then perhaps he should emphasize the books of his own guru and param guru, but he/she must make the proper adjustment. So maybe one would keep Prabhupada's vani at distance at first until they become firm. Perhaps at that point it would be wise for them to approach Prabhupada's lotus feet for his vani. Otherwise how we ever really appreciate his great sacrifices and bhakti? How would one ever consider the real debt that all of us have to him if we kept him at a distance from us forever?

[krsna]

For those who say we blooped from Krsnaloka, how can it be???

 

What are you to prove by your apa-siddhanta???

 

You hail Srila Prabhupada as jagat-guru whilst spinning yarns and half-truths about the final conclusions of all previous acaryas.

 

Do you know better then them? Would Srila Prabhupada not know the conclusions?

 

Or do you have a selfish agenda whereby you seek false ego self-agrandisement by saying how great is Srila Prabhupada -your guru- and at the same time putting down all other's gurus at gunpoint, your self-professed manifesto of rtvik hate?

[Guest guest]

 

For those who say we blooped from Krsnaloka, how can it be???

 

 

Srila Prabhupada CLEARLY taught that we fell from Krsnaloka. He also CLEARLY taught that we didn't. No amount of word-jugglery can obscure this fact. The only question is, WHY did he teach these contradictions? There are basically just two possibilities:

 

1. He was a Gaudiya Matha fringie who never really understood the philosophy, but because of his wealth and social connections he was engaged in service by various of his Godbrothers when he wasn't running off to stay in a caste Goswami temple instead of a Matha. When he came to America, he did the best he could, but he ended up teaching a concocted mix of caste Goswami deity worship, philosophy and practice, along with a healthy core of authentic Gaudiya Matha teachings. Interestingly, most of his "no fall" statements come from books where he was translating what Gaudiya acharyas had written, with the help of his Sanskrit-expert disciples. His "fall" statements tended to come from his personal off-the-cuff remarks, reflecting his personal knowledge rather than the sastric conclusions.

 

2. He was an empowered saktyavesa-avatara, who -- much like Buddha or Shankaracharya -- came to confuse and charm the materialists and prepare the ground in the Western countries for others who would later present the true teachings of the Gaudiya sampradaya.

 

I prefer to believe #2. I honor the Buddha and Shankaracharya as empowered incarnations of divinity. But that doesn't mean I worship in their temples or follow their teachings; to do so would be a step backwards. Same with Srila Prabhupada. Please do not disrespect him, but please do not risk ruining your spiritual life by accepting his confused statements as Gaudiya siddhanta, any more than you would accept all of Shankaracharya's statements as siddhanta just because he did say "Bhaja Govindam" at the end.

[Guest guest]

Just in case anyone was wondering about whether Guestt is me, Muralidhar das, I would like to say that I am not Guestt.

 

Perhaps I might also repeat what I've said earlier in regard to things Guestt is saying, and Shakti-fan too. That is, I consider that Srila Prabhupada is an empowered Shaktyavesha avatara who descended from Goloka in order to uplift the fallen souls [such as ME]. Additionally, unlike most ISKCON devotees, but very much like most devotees of SCSMath who I know, I do not believe that a nitya-siddha devotee is omniscient, or indeed that they cannot "make a mistake". My thinking in this regard is clearly explained in the chapter "the illusion of Brahma" in the book "Loving Search for the Lost Servants" by Srila Sridhar Maharaj. My own Guru Maharaj used to say things such as "Australia was an ally of Germany in the first Great War" when in fact it was Austria that was allied with Germany and the Australians (such as my grandfather) were fighing in trenches in France. If you spend time in the personal association of a great saint you are likely to hear lots of things like this. But it doesn't diminish my faith in Srila Sridhar Maharaj that he said some things that are wrong. Likewise I can still respect Srila Prabhupada even if he said some thing that I feel quite horrified by. My Guru Maharaj considedered Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami to be his friend. A friend can slap his friend sometimes and it is OK - they stay friends. But in the end I'm a 100% "Srila Guru Maharaj man" and I don't like to see horrifying things being said about Guru Maharaj.

[theist]

 

For those who say we blooped from Krsnaloka, how can it be???

 

What are you to prove by your apa-siddhanta???

 

You hail Srila Prabhupada as jagat-guru whilst spinning yarns and half-truths about the final conclusions of all previous acaryas.

 

Do you know better then them? Would Srila Prabhupada not know the conclusions?

 

Or do you have a selfish agenda whereby you seek false ego self-agrandisement by saying how great is Srila Prabhupada -your guru- and at the same time putting down all other's gurus at gunpoint, your self-professed manifesto of rtvik hate?

Hey krsna, I have to ask, why ask questions of others if you are unwilling to engage in some dialouge with the respondents. Especially considering the obnoxious tone of your last post. You have done this for years.

 

Sometimes you post just to inspire some introspection which I can appreciate but this above is of a far lower level.

 

Of course I doubt highly that you will respond to this, maybe just take then as food for your own introspection.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

Hare Krsna

 

Ditto what Theist said.

 

Regarding this Jiva origin issue, Shakti Fan made a salient point, that Krsna Lila is not the same as being in Krsnaloka, Goloka Vrndavan. Especially when a shaktavesha avatara is using the term Krsna Lila. It has a broad umbrella of definition.

 

So Nitya-baddha Jivas were technically once with Krsna. At the very least, their little particle selves were tranquilly floating in Lord Krsna's aura. And now they play the role of eternally conditioned but they were in Krsna's lila for sure. This is no consolation in reality because in reality such Jiva's are now under the influence of MAHA MAYA.

 

The nitya-baddhas engage in Vaidhi Bhakti sadhana, and may repeatedly fall and take rebirth while struggling to purify to Raganuga Stage.

 

The nitya-siddhas engage in Vaidhi Bhakti sadhana for a comparatively shorter (sometimes only a moment) period of time, and their activities satisfy the functions of both providing an example for nitya-baddhas to follow and increasing or changing their rasa with the Lord.

 

So it is possible to fall from Vaikuntha or even Krsnaloka. But under the care of Yoga-maya. Sudama and Tulsi fell, and Sudama was a great demon on earth, who ruled the earth, nay the 3 worlds, and romped with Tulsi in the pleasure gardens of the earth, with no regulation. Still this is pure and transcendental.

 

Of course a neophyte will hypothesize that a personal servant of the Lord with steady rasa (like Sudama prabhu) could "forget" about Krsna under the auspices of Maha-Maya, but that should be expected. The understanding of the 2 Maya's and their relation to the Lord and Jiva souls is hidden from most for a time.

 

Hare Krsna

 

ys

 

BD

[Deecali04]

Just joined the board and was wonmdering where do i go to post my questions? Maybe you can help....i'm a 21 year old girl living in phoenix and recently became very touched and interested in Hinduism. How do you feel about new people going to temple that want to learn and experience? I really want to go to the local temple here but am afraid of people judging me and looking like an idiot. Can you please tell me what i should do? I have been studying very hard and reading, but i really want to go to temple. Thanks so much!

DeAnna

[Beggar]

 

... but very much like most devotees of SCSMath who I know, I do not believe that a nitya-siddha devotee is omniscient, or indeed that they cannot "make a mistake". My thinking in this regard is clearly explained in the chapter "the illusion of Brahma" in the book "Loving Search for the Lost Servants" by Srila Sridhar Maharaj. .

I really don't understand why this is such a contentious point if everything is "simultaneously one and different" from itself since all existence is with Krsna's multifarious energies. Didn't Srila Sridhar Maharaja say that the pure devotee has two aspects, his inspired side and his life as a vaisnava? If you look at it from the inspired side then he is nondifferent from akhanda guru tattva. By definition akhanda guru tattva is certainly onmiscient but from the relative view point the individual vaisnava devotee, representing akhanda guru tattva, may appear to make mistakes. Also the mistakes and illusions commited by Lord Brahma in the Bhagavatam are the exceptions to his general condition as a great devotee, and that's why those lilas have so much instructive value.

[theist]

 

Just joined the board and was wonmdering where do i go to post my questions? Maybe you can help....i'm a 21 year old girl living in phoenix and recently became very touched and interested in Hinduism. How do you feel about new people going to temple that want to learn and experience? I really want to go to the local temple here but am afraid of people judging me and looking like an idiot. Can you please tell me what i should do? I have been studying very hard and reading, but i really want to go to temple. Thanks so much!

DeAnna

 

Just go and learn. Nobody is expected to know new tradions without time and practice. You needn't know some college course before you enter that college course. Just go looking for a new experience and don't try to look like anyone other than a newcomer. Newcomers are cool too.

 

To post questions like this one you should click on the 'start a new thread'

located on the top left of the page that says Spiritual Discussions.

 

Welcome to the board.

[Guest guest]

 

I really don't understand why this is such a contentious point if everything is "simultaneously one and different" from itself since all existence is with Krsna's multifarious energies. Didn't Srila Sridhar Maharaja say that the pure devotee has two aspects, his inspired side and his life as a vaisnava?

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj said "Guru is relative", not absolute.

 

I may see someone as "my Guru" from my relative position, whereas Srila Sridhar Maharaj may see that same person as a student or disciple.

[Beggar]

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj said "Guru is relative", not absolute.

 

I may see someone as "my Guru" from my relative position, whereas Srila Sridhar Maharaj may see that same person as a student or disciple.

Yes, that is the relative aspect of guru. Sridhar Maharaja said, "everywhere there is the absolute and the relative consideration."

[krsna]

Please take advantage of higher saintly association that can ultimately give that which you can never ever receive on your own. The descendfing process is Krsna's way of delivering the conditioned soul from matter to pure spirit. Please dear brothers come to the light of conclusive truth stored in the heart of the acaryas and thereby get out of the darkness of misunderstanding.

 

Where do you descend from? Why have you come here? How will you exit from this quagmire of matteriial illusion?

 

If I know conclusively how and why I've come to this world will I not then be in a better position to inquire about spiritual life especially the dire need of taking to heart advanced saintly association?

 

Ask and you shall receive; knock and the door will open.

[Shakti-Fan]

The Final Proof: The Jiva Did Not Fall From Goloka

 

Murwillumbah, Australia; Feb. 16, 2002 (Evening - Part 2)

Tridandiswami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->

Come with me now to Godruma in Navadvipa Dhama, where Sannyasi Thakura asks a question to his guru, Paramahamsa Babaji Maharaja. He told him, "For a long time I have heard of the pre-eminence of dharma. On numerous occasions I have asked the question to many people, 'What is dharma?' And, it is a cause of distress to me that those peoples' answers contradict each other. So please tell me, what is the true constitutional dharma of the jivas, and why do different teachers explain the nature of dharma in such diverse ways? If dharma is one, why don't all learned teachers cultivate that universal dharma which is one without a second?"

Paramahamsa Babaji Maharaja replied, "Religion is one, and that religion is love and affection for the Supreme Lord. Only this love and affection is real Vaisnava-dharma, Sanatana-dharma, or Bhagavad-dharma. This sometimes transforms, however, as water transforms into ice, or fog, or steam. When it becomes ice, one can throw it at anyone and it will cause injury, but water will not do so. Similarly, love for Krsna, the intrinsic mood of the jiva, has now been transformed. Now we love each other, or we love dogs, cats, our own bodies, or boyfriends and girlfriends, and this is called anitya-dharma. That love originally comes from Goloka Vrndavana. That love is in the heart of jivas, but now it has been transformed, as water transforms into ice when the temperature is low. Due to maya, our real dharma, prema for Krsna, has now been transformed and changed, and now we are 'loving' each other. In this world, 'love' is perverted and has become lust, but in its pure stage, it is love and affection for Krsna and it comes from the hearts of the gopis and Vrajavasis.

Paramahamsa Babaji Maharaja quoted Caitanya-caritamrta:

jivera 'svarupa' haya - krsnera 'nitya-dasa'

krsnera 'tatastha'sakti' 'bhedabheda-prakasa'

suryamsa-kirana, yaiche agni-jvala-caya

svabhavika krsnera tina-prakara 'sakti' haya

["It is the living entity's constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy." (Cc Madhya 20.108-109)]

krsna bhuli' sei jiva anadi-bahirmukha

ataeva maya tare deya samsara-duhkha

["Forgetting Krsna, the living entity has been attracted by the external feature from time immemorial. Therefore, the illusory energy (maya) gives him all kinds of misery in his material existence." (Cc Madhya 20.117)]

We are eternally Krsna dasa, servants of Krsna, but now we are Krsna bhuli; we have forgotten Him. The words 'krsna bhuli' are used here. It means 'the jiva forgets Krsna', but what does this actually mean? It seems to mean that the jiva was once engaged in Krsna's service, but now he has forgotten that service. Actually, this is not true. This is not the meaning. There is defect in worldly languages. They are not perfect, and therefore they cannot purely express what is the nature of our svarupa (constitutional form). To clarify the meaning of 'krsna bhuli', Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami writes in the next line, "krsnera 'tatastha'sakti' 'bhedabheda-prakasa.'"

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has clearly explained all these truths. You should very carefully note this down in your heart and on your paper. He took his understanding from Srila Sanatana Gosvami's Srimad-Bhagavatam and from Sri Jiva Gosvami's Sat-sandarpa, and then he wrote:

[Pundarika dasa reads from Jaiva Dharma, Chapter Sixteen:] "Innumerable jivas appear from Sri Baladeva Prabhu to serve Vrndavana-vihari Sri Krsna as His eternal associates in Goloka Vrndavana, and others appear from Sri Sankarsana to serve the Lord of Vaikuntha, Sri Narayana, in the spiritual sky. Eternally relishing rasa, engaged in the service of their worshipable Lord, they always remain fixed in their constitutional position. They always strive to please Bhagavan, and are always favorable to Him. By virtue of the spiritual sakti, they have the strength to stay fixed in their devotion, and they have no connection with the material energy. In fact, they are unaware that there is a deluding energy called maya. Since they reside in the spiritual world, maya stays far from them and does not affect them at all. Always absorbed in the bliss of serving their worshipable Lord, they are eternally liberated and are free from material happiness and distress. Their life is love alone, and they are not even conscious of misery, death or fear."

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] They are all liberated. They don't know what is maya and what is this material world. Who knows? We know. We have come from tatastha-sakti, from a manifestation of Baladeva Prabhu called Karanabdisayi Visnu, who is situated on the marginal line, in the Karanabdhi (Causal Ocean). The jivas are not coming to this world from Goloka Vrndavana, nor are they coming from Vaikuntha. They are coming form the marginal line, from the glance of Karanabdhisayi Visnu. Among them, those who look towards Vaikuntha are liberated, and they go there at once without delay. Conversely, those who look toward this world will come here.

Jivas are independent because Krsna has made them so. This independence is like a special jewel, and the jivas can use it properly or misuse it. If they using it well, they will quickly go towards Vaikuntha, and if they misuse it they will have to suffer.

Here is an example. If you have a sharp sword or knife and you drop some very small and round mustard seeds on it so that they falls in the middle of the sword, some will fall over to one side and some will fall to the other. The jiva has got some independence to go here or there. This is not the fault of Krsna, but rather it is their independence to look here and there. If they look towards Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrndavana, Yogamaya will at once help them and they will go there. On the other hand, those who look towards the material world will be attracted by Mahamaya. Krsna is not at fault here.

You cannot understand this in your present stage, but when you come in our stage, then you will realize something. At present you should chant, follow your guru, and follow all these teachings. Don't conclude that the jivas have come from Goloka. Although Srila Swami Maharaja never said that the jivas fell from Goloka, some of his disciples try to prove that he has said the opposite. But I know the truth. He has told me, and it is also in sastra. Srimati Syamarani dasi has collected so many of Srila Swami Maharaja words, confirming that he never accepted that the jivas came from Goloka Vrndavana.

na tad bhasayate suryo

na sasanko na pavakah

yad gatva na nivartante

tad dhama paramam mama

"That supreme abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by fire or electricity. Those who reach it never return to this material world." (Bg 15.6)

Goloka is such a dhama that there is no maya. Rather, only Yogamaya is there. A person who is seriously chanting, remembering and following, passes through the stages of sraddha, nistha, ruci, asakti, and prema, after a long, long, long time. If he has gone to Goloka Vrndavana Dhama and is serving Krsna, there is no chance at all to fall down. There is no example at all in the Vedas, Upanisads, or any other scriptures.

Srila Gour-Govinda Swami used to say very boldly that those who wear big kanti-mala and chant, "Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna," at the same time being duplicitous, hypocritical and critical, are kali-cela, disciples of Kali. They are not Vaisnavas because they have none of the symptom of a Vaisnava. Such persons think that they can vote to determine siddhanta or to determine who is acarya or guru. This is totally against Vaisnava law. Experts are experts. Guru is guru.

Who made Srila Swami Maharaja guru? Has Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura made him acarya? Has he given him a certificate saying, "After me you will be acarya, and you will do such and such"? It's ones own service that makes one acarya or guru. There was no duplicity in him, and he was very kind and merciful to all. He realized this fact and he served like that. Similarly, Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura has not made our Guru Maharaja an acarya. He did not tell him, "After me, you shall be acarya," but still he has become a very famous acarya - strong like a lion. Those who serve their Gurudeva properly will become acarya. Who made Sri Sukadeva Gosvami acarya? Who made Sri Jiva Gosvami acarya? Who made Srila Gour-Govinda Maharaja acarya? Who made Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura acarya? Has Srila Gaura Kisora Dasa Babaji Maharaja told him, "After me you should be acarya"? Those who serve their gurus properly, following the footprints of our guru-parampara and especially of Gaura-Nityananda Prabhu, will automatically be recognized throughout the world as acarya.

It would be quite absurd to think that liberated souls in Goloka Vrndavana can ever be covered by maya. You should have strong faith that the jivas did not fall from there. They have come from the marginal point. They have come from Karanabdhisayi Visnu and from tatastha-sakti. Jiva himself is tatastha-sakti.

[srimati Syamarani dasi:] Throughout Srila Prabhupada's books he confirms Srila Gurudeva's statements that the jiva never fell from Goloka Vrndavana. In the First Canto Srimad-Bhagavatam, first chapter, first verse, last line, it's stated:

dhamna svena sada nirasta-kuhakam satyam param dhimahi

Srila Vyasadeva says, "I meditate on that Absolute Truth, Sri Krsna, who eternally resides in His own abode which forever free from the illusory representations of this material world. This means that at no time is there any amount of maya in Krsna's abode. In the Third Canto Srimad-Bhagavatam, in the history of Jaya and Vijaya, Pariksit Maharaja asks Sukadeva Gosvami, "How is it possible that Jaya and Vijaya could have fallen down from that realm? I don't believe it." Any pure devotee will not believe it. Srila Prabhupada writes in the purport of the Seventh Canto, Chapter 1 (Text 35), "Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha." Jaya and Vijaya had a desire to please the Lord. All the associates of the Lord have only one desire: to give Him pleasure.

Lord Narayana has a desire to enjoy vira-rasa, the mood or humor of chivalry. But who will He fight with in Vaikuntha? Everyone there worships Him in awe and reverence. Jaya and Vijaya were desiring, "We should do something to fulfill this desire." Then, knowing that they had that desire to please Him, Lord Narayana called on Yogamaya to arrange for the four Kumaras to come and for the gatekeepers Jaya and Vijaya to be cursed to come to the material world as demons. Actually, they never came here and became demons. Only a part of them manifested in this world in order to give the Lord pleasure. Bhagavan came in the form of Lord Nrsimhadeva and Lord Varaha to fight with their manifestations, and the complete and original Jaya and Vijaya remained in Vaikuntha as gatekeepers.

In Prabhupada's translation of Caitanya-caritamrta, Caitanya Mahaprabhu instructed Sanatana Gosvami that there are two kinds of living entities. Those who are eternal associates of the Lord have never seen the material world, and those who are conditioned jivas, who have come to this material world, have never yet seen that world. Mahaprabhu made a distinction between the two. He said that apart from one, there is the other.

'nitya-mukta' - nitya krsna-carane unmukha

'krsna-parisada' nama, bhunje seva-sukha

"Those who are eternally liberated are always awake to Krsna consciousness, and they render transcendental loving service at the feet of Lord Krsna. They are to be considered eternal associates of Krsna, and they are eternally enjoying the transcendental bliss of serving Krsna." (Cc Madhya 22.11)

'nitya-bandha' - krsna haite nitya-bahirmukha

'nitya-samsara', bhunje narakadi duhkha

"Apart from the ever-liberated devotees, there are the conditioned souls, who always turn away from the service of the Lord. They are perpetually conditioned in this material world and are subjected to the material tribulations brought about by different bodily forms in hellish conditions." (Cc Madhya 22.12)

Caitanya Mahaprabhu also explained to Sri Sanatana Gosvami that beyond the Viraja river, which is the dividing point between the material and spiritual worlds, there is no maya, what to speak of in the Vaikuntha planets or in the highest planet, Goloka Vrndavana.

karanabdhi-pare mayara nitya avasthiti

virajara pare paravyome nahi gati

"The Viraja, or Causal Ocean, is the border between the spiritual and the material world. The material energy is situated on one shore of that ocean, and it cannot enter onto the other shore, which is the spiritual sky." (Cc Madhya 20.269)

It's not that this is a new teaching or something that is hidden deep in Caitanya-caritamrta. I joined Prabhupada in New York in October, 1966, and two months later I heard him speak this same thing in his morning class. [Dec. 17, 1966: Karanabdhi-pare. Just on the other side of the Causal Ocean, this material energy is situated. Virajara pare paravyome nahi gati. And this material energy has no entrance in the spiritual kingdom.

Now, the description of the spiritual world is that there is no rajas-tamah. These modes of passion and modes of ignorance is not there. Suddha-sattva. Suddha-sattva means simply goodness, pure goodness, without any tinge of passion and ignorance. So pravartate yatra rajas tamas tayoh sattvam ca misram na ca kala-vikramah. There is no mixed goodness; simply goodness. And na ca kala-vikramah: And there is no influence of time. This is the description of the spiritual world: There is no modes of passion, and there is no modes of ignorance, and there is no influence of time." That means there is simply pure goodness. And in pure goodness we can understand our constitutional position: we can understand what is God, what is creation, everything.]

Srila Gurudeva often quotes a verse from Bhagavad-gita, as does Prabhupada. In his translation and commentary of Bhagavad-gita, Prabhupada writes that when one experiences a higher taste, he leaves the lower taste.

visaya vinivartante

niraharasya dehinah

rasa-varjam raso 'py asya

param drstva nivartate

["The embodied soul may be restricted from sense enjoyment, though the taste for sense objects remains. But, ceasing such engagements by experiencing a higher taste, he is fixed in consciousness." (Bg 2.59)]

One gives up lower engagements when he experiences a higher taste. Even in the stage of ruci, taste, one has no desire for material pleasures. In asakti, in bhava, what to speak of prema, and what to speak of the devotees who are enraptured, enjoying the pleasures of Goloka Vrndavana; there is no desire for such mundane pleasures. Krsna says in the Gita that one who takes shelter of His spiritual energy is free from maya. That spiritual energy is Yogamaya, and Yogamaya is an expansion of Srimati Radhika. For one who serves Radha and Krsna, there is no question of every having the desire to come to this material world.

Someone wrote Prabhupada a letter and asked, "Did we ever see Krsna?" Prabhupada replied, "Yes, we saw Krsna, just as the child was with the father before coming out of the mother's womb."

["Regarding your second question, have the conditioned souls ever seen Krsna? Were they with the Lord before being conditioned by the desire to lord it over material nature? Yes, the conditioned souls are parts and parcels of the Lord and thus they were with Krsna before being conditioned. Just as the child must have seen his father because the father places the child in the womb of the mother, similarly each soul has seen Krsna or the Supreme Father." (Letter to Jagadisa, Los Angeles, 25 April, 1970)]

In other words, he was saying that we never saw Krsna. We were with Krsna because we came from Krsna - from His tatastha-sakti. That person who came out of his mother's womb never actually associated with the father previously. Later on he meets his father.

[Gokula dasa:] Actually, within ISKCON there was two or three.

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] I know. I have read them. Srila Swami Maharaja sometimes gave baby food to babies. When I give a baby medicine like quinine, I tell him, "Baby, baby, it is very sweet." I'm telling him something that is not true so that I can give him the medicine. Similarly, Srila Swami Maharaja has written to someone who was very low in bhakti. A letter cannot always be proof. What Srila Swami Maharaja has written in Caitanya-caritamrta and in his Gita and Bhagavata explanation is authentic. These are proofs. He can write something else for a little baby, but it is not proof.

[Gokula dasa:] Srila Gour-Govinda Maharaja said that he was doing it to encourage them. Otherwise.

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] Yes, certainly. Someone may say that Citraketu Maharaja fell down, and this is proof that the jiva fell from Goloka. Actually, however, he has never fallen down. He is a liberated soul. He came to see his friend, Sankara Mahadeva, when Sankara was sitting naked with the very beautiful Uma Parvati on His lap. Citraketu began joking with him, because a friend can joke with another friend when both on the same level. Citraketu Maharaja was not less than Sankara. He was Sankara's god-brother, and fully liberated. He told him, "What are you doing? You're quite naked, and at the same time you're taking this beautiful young lady on your lap. What will everyone think?" He was laughing, and Sankara was also smiling, but Parvati could not tolerate his joking statements. She at once cursed him, saying, "You should become a demon."

Sankara became upset and told Parvati, "You have done wrong. He is a liberated soul. Whether he is in this world, or here or there, he will be a devotee. He cannot be transformed at all. He has the power to resist your curse, but see how humble he is; because he is a Vaisnava. He is beyond hankering and lamentation, and therefore he tolerated your words and accepted your curse. If he wished, he could have also cursed you; but he did not do so."

Citraketu Maharaja willingly came to establish this truth - that whether a devotee is in this world or in hell, he will glorify his Prabhu and give instructions to all to serve Krsna. It was for this reason that, for a very short time, he became the demon Vrtrasura. When he was in the body of that demon, his enemy, Indra, was in great wonder, thinking, "How can I kill him? He's telling me, 'Kill me. I cannot serve my Prabhu in this body. So kill me,' but I cannot." Even Indra's thunderbolt failed.

Vrtrasura prayed:

ajata-paksa iva mataram khagah

stanyam yatha vatsatarah ksudh-artah

priyam priyeva vyusitam visanna

mano 'ravindaksa didrksate tvam

["O lotus-eyed Lord, as baby birds that have not yet developed their wings always look for their mother to return and feed them, as small calves tied with ropes await anxiously the time of milking, when they will be allowed to drink the milk of their mothers, or as a morose wife whose husband is away from home always longs for him to return so that she can satisfy him in all respects, I always yearn for the opportunity to render direct service unto You." (SB 6.11.26)]

This is a highly elevated verse. Here, Vrtrasura's mood to serve Krsna is like that of the gopis. By this prayer, Srila Vyasadeva and Sukadeva Gosvami have glorified the love and affection of gopis. So Citraketu Maharaja did not fall from Goloka Vrndavana. He came only to establish these truths.

When Jaya and Vijaya became demons for three births, they were still Jaya and Vijaya. They remained there in Vaikuntha and their manifestations came here to act like demons. Jaya and Vijaya can have so many forms, just as Yasoda has unlimited forms, and just as Krsna has so many forms in Vaikuntha, in Dvaraka, and here and there. There are lakhs of universes, in each universe there is one Vrndavana, and Krsna is there in Vrndavana. We cannot imagine this. Brahma has said that a person may be able to count the stars in the sky and the sands on the earth, but he will not be able to glorify the sweet pastimes of Krsna.

It is absurd to think that any jiva can fall from Goloka Vrndavana. Any liberated soul can come with Krsna to assist in His pastimes, as Sridama and Subala do. Krsna sends them here only to help the rebellious souls.

Try to remember Krsna and follow this doctrine: God is one, there is one religion, and that religion is love and affection for the Supreme Lord Krsna.

Gaura Premanande!

[Devotee:] You said that Krsna's associates go with Him to the innumerable universes and they have so many expansions. Does that also apply to the sadhana-siddha jiva? In other words, if we ever become perfect, do we also go to all those places, all those universes, at the same time, along with Krsna?

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] If you will be perfect like them, then you can go. A perfect devotee, one who always remembers the asta-kaliya-lila of Radha and Krsna, will go to Goloka Vrndavana. Those who always worship Gaura-Nityananda Prabhu, always remembering Their pastimes, will go to Svetadvipa. Those who remember both Gauranga and Radha-Krsna and want to serve both, have two svarupas, and they go to both places. There are so many universes, and there is Svetadvipa and Vrndavana. Such perfect and liberated souls will be in all these places.

[Radhanatha dasa:] Citraketu Maharaja was initiated with a sankarsana-mantra. How would he be able to have a mood like the gopis?

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] If by taking mantra from my Gurudeva, Srila Bhaktiprajnana Kesava Maharaja, I can have this, then why, by taking the mantra from Baladeva Prabhu, would one not be like the gopis?

[sripad Madhava Maharaja:] Baladeva Prabhu is the undivided guru-tattva.

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] It may be that he did not have that at first, but later on he may have attained it. Narada Muni gave him the mantra. Sanaka, Sanandana, Sanatana, and Sanat-Kumara were originally jnani-bhaktas, but later they began chanting and remembering asta-kaliya-lila and now they are gurus of asta-kaliya-lila. How can you say they are still jnani-bhaktas? It may be that they are real Vrajabasis. Sanaka, Sanandana, Sanatana, and Sanat-Kumara have so many forms, as do Subala and Sridama, and they also have forms like the gopis. Otherwise, how would they be able to teach the truths about the gopis to Narada Gosvami? Sanaka, Sanandana, Sanatana, and Sanat-kumara have explained their asta-kaliya-lila to Narada. They are the gurus of Narada. If they don't know about that lila and they are not practicing that meditation and service, how can they explain it to Narada? Don't have any doubt in this.

[krsna]

Could Chandravali Decide to Leave Goloka?

BY: PUNDARIKAKSA DASI

 

Feb 22, USA (SUN) — Today I read the new article by Eric Johansen where he argues that souls in this world have fallen down from Vaikuntha and become caught in samsara. I previously sent the Sun some articles in regard to this topic but in my mind I decided not to persist in discussing this matter. However after studying Eric Johansen's article it seems sensible to express a few thoughts which I have had.

 

"OK", I will say. "OK, I was wrong and you are right". OK, now that I have adopted your point of view can you please address some serious concerns I have in regard to this.

 

Mahesh Raja presented the quote below by His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada.

 

760805BG.PAR Lectures:

• 
  Translator: "The question is: did we fall in this material world to find some highest pleasure? His question is: did we fall in the material world to experience something which is higher?
  Prabhupada: I do not follow.
  Yogesvara: I think his question is the husband will leave the wife because he is dissatisfied. But if our love for Krsna originally is perfect why should we have left?
  Prabhupada: YOU HAVE LEFT... JUST LIKE SOMEBODY IS DAILY EATING PURIS AND HALAVA, AND HE WANTS TO EAT PUFFED RICE. SO THAT TENDENCY IS THERE. THAT IS ALSO A SIDE OF ENJOYMENT. "I am eating daily this, let me eat this." What is the difficulty? That tendency is there. That is also enjoyment. After all, we are hankering after enjoyment, anandamayo 'bhyasat. So different taste we desire, that "Let me taste this, let me taste that, let me taste that." So the real basic principle is enjoyment, sense enjoyment. That's all."
  

 

 

A number of questions arise in my mind after reading this. I hope and pray that the intelligent brahmana gentlemen following this discussion will be able to enlighten a less intelligent person such as I, and provide me with answers to the doubts in my mind.

 

In this quote above His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada says souls come here and get into Maya for the purpose of feeling enjoyment. Presumably, if and when I return to Goloka I will find that the happiness in Goloka I feel is the same as it was before I left. So my concern is this: is there any statement in the scriptures saying that devotees who have come back home after being in Maya are any happier or wiser because of their experience of Maya? Presumably, after going back to Godhead we will be of the same intelligence we had before. Then when another day comes where I feel a taste for a higher type of enjoyment than what I am getting in Goloka I may decide to come back to the material world again. Again and again I will come back here. Is it not so? If the personal quest for enjoyment is the driving force then surely my feeling of happiness in Goloka will fade once again. Is it not so?

 

The second question I have is a question I raised before which nobody has answered: why should anybody make an effort to go back to Godhead if eternal associates of Krishna feel this world is a more attractive place to be than Vaikuntha? If the devotees in Goloka feel a desire to come to the material world so they can experience greater enjoyment, why should I want to go to Goloka? Perhaps as a matter of duty and religious zeal we should serve Krishna. But in Goloka the souls serving Krishna as cowherd boys and girls do not feel a sense of duty towards Krishna but instead they live a life of fun in a world centered around Krishna. Souls such as those, it would seem, may sometimes desire to enjoy separately from Krishna. This is very perplexing.

 

My third question, an unanswered question I asked before in a previous article, is this. Buddha said the gods in heaven do not live there forever since all concrete realms are impermanent. If it is true that "Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila" then it must also be true that the world of Krishna is an impermanent residence for souls, since people in Vaikuntha can (and do) fall into a state of illusion from time to time. This is the logical conclusion I arrive at. Can someone please explain to me how my thinking is wrong?

 

I have a fourth question, and a fifth. But before asking my fourth question I would like to present two verses from the Gita.

 

• In the Bhagavad gita (8.21) Krishna says:
  <CENTER>avyakto 'ksara ity uktas tam ahuh paramam gatim
  yam prapya na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama </CENTER>
  "That supreme abode is called unmanifested and infallible, and it is the supreme destination. When one goes there, he never comes back. That is My supreme abode.
  And in verse 6.15 Krishna says:
  <CENTER>na tad bhasayate suryo na sasanko na pavakah
  yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama
  </CENTER>"That abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by electricity. One who reaches it never returns to this material world."
  

 

 

Some devotees interpret these verses to mean that a liberated person who has gone back to Godhead from the material world will never fall again whereas souls who have never fallen may still fall at some time in the future if they decide to seek a higher type of satisfaction which they want to experience in the material world. Yet if some cowherd boy in Goloka makes a conscious choice to fall into Maya so he can experience enjoyment separate from Krishna then why doesn't Krishna take care of his silly friend and save him from all the trouble that he will go through? Why doesn't Krishna protect the boy from the reactions that will come about because of his desire to enter Maya and get born in physical bodies that get old and rotten? Krishna says in the gita (9.31): "Declare it boldly that My devotee will never perish." Why does Krishna say that if he doesn't save his cowherd friends from becoming grubs? This is my fourth question.

 

There are billions of living souls in this world, all of which have fallen into illusion from Vaikuntha (we believe). Why does Krishna allow so many of his eternal friends from Goloka who he used to play with in the pasture grounds fall into a state of seemingly perpetual illusion

 

(Considering this issue carefully, I am starting to feel I should recant on my earlier decision to accept that the souls in this world fall down from Vaikuntha. It is much easier to accommodate the idea that souls who have fallen from Brahman are filling up this world and that none of the miserable maggots in the rubbish pile at the local junkyard were formerly cowherd boys in Goloka).

 

Previously I wrote:

 

If each and every fly and germ in the material world was originally a servant of Krishna in Vaikuntha, if the residents of Goloka such as Gopis and Gopas can become maggots and spend millions of lifetimes in samsara, then what about Krishna's statement "Declare it boldly that My devotee will never perish." (Bhagavad gita 9.31)?

 

Mahesh Raja presented an article in which he said that souls in this world start of as Brahma and fall down from there. But then, as he mentioned in quotes he gave in regard the fallen jiva, "before that even, he was with Krishna". That is, before he was a Brahma he was a cowherd (or a resident of Vaikuntha), and then Krishna let this liberated individual who was doing service fall into illusion and become a fool, become a Brahma, and become a maggot. Sorry if my language seems harsh but I want to emphasize this issue that concerns me deeply. If one of the brahmana gentlemen presently advising me how to understand Krishna Consciousness properly would please enlighten me about this matter I would be extremely grateful.

 

The next question I have, the fifth question is that I would like to know why a distinction is made in the scriptures between jiva souls who arise from the marginal potency and the eternal residents of Vaikuntha who are said to be expansions of the antaranga shakti? If all of us jivas were originally part of the Goloka-lila and consequently part of the antaranga shakti then why is it that in the scriptures such as Brahma Samhita it is stated that the jiva souls arise from Brahman (not the antaranga shakti)?

 

(Various persons have made comments about how the translations of the writings of previous Acaryas are unreliable translations. But this is a moot point in regard to the English translation we have of Brahma Samhita because that book is coming to us in the direct English words penned by Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura.)

 

Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura wrote in Sri Brahma Samhita. Text 21:

• 
  <CENTER>sa nityo nitya-sambandhah prakrtis ca paraiva sa</CENTER>
  
  TRANSLATION: The same jiva is eternal and is for eternity and without a beginning joined to the Supreme Lord by the tie of an eternal kinship. He is transcendental spiritual potency.
  PURPORT: Just as the sun is eternally associated with his rays so the transcendental Supreme Lord is eternally joined with the jivas. The jivas are the infinitesimal particles of His spiritual effulgence and are, therefore, not perishable like mundane things. Jivas, being particles of Godhead's effulgent rays, exhibit on a minute scale the qualities of the Divinity. Hence jivas are identical with the principles of knowledge, knower, egoism, enjoyed, meditator and doer. Krishna is the all-pervading, all-extending Supreme Lord; while jivas have a different nature from His, being His atomic particles. That eternal relationship consists in this that the Supreme Lord is the eternal master and jivas are His eternal servants. Jivas have also sufficient eligibility in respect at the mellow quality of the Divinity. Apareyam itas tv anyam prakrtim viddhi me param. By this verse of the Geeta it is made known that jivas are His transcendental potency. All the qualities of the unalloyed soul are above the eightfold qualities such as egotism, etc., pertaining to His acit potency. Hence the jiva potency, though very small in magnitude, is still superior to acit potency or Maya. This potency has another name, viz., tatastha or marginal potency being located on the line demarcating the spheres of the spiritual and mundane potencies. He is susceptible to the influence of the material energy owing to his small magnitude. But so long as he remains submissive to Krsna, the Lord of Maya, he is not liable to the influence of Maya. The worldly afflictions, births and rebirths are the concomitants of the fettered condition of souls fallen into the clutches of the deluding potency from a time that has no beginning.
  

 

 

Here, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura clearly states in his own words written in English that the jiva shakti is tatastha shakti. Moreover, we do know that tatastha shakti is different from the antaranga shakti from which the parshads (eternal associates) are expanded. So in summary, my fifth question is that I would like to know why the previous Acaryas make a distinction between tatastha shakti and antaranga shakti if the jiva shakti is not truly arising from the "margin" between Prakriti and the antaranga shakti. Shouldn't it become a point of philosophy we preach, that this jiva shakti is made up of persons who used to be in the antaranga shakti but who then became ignorant fools.

 

I started this article off by saying that I now accept the notion that all the jivas in this world have fallen down from Vaikuntha. But having reconsidered all these points I do wonder if there are serious fundamental problems that have arisen simultaneously with the notion that eternal servitors of the Lord can fall into Maya.

 

Might it be possible, I wonder, that at some time in the future Srila Prabhupada himself will decide to seek happiness in the material world? I appreciate that many devotees will think this statement of mine is scandalous. But truly I am just trying to understand this idea that anyone in Vaikuntha can fall down into illusion.

 

I wonder about all this. If anyone can fall from Goloka into Maya then maybe one day Chandravali and other Gopis will decide to leave aside that life they are living on the slopes of Govardhana. Maybe they will decide to seek the greater joys of life that can be found in the material world.

Oh, and if Chandravali decides to leave Goloka, will Krishna let her become a grub or a tree for millions of lifetimes? I just don't know the answer to that.

[Guest guest]

Uddhava prayed to become a creeper in Vraja and it happenned.

[Guest guest]

Good point. He was already a pure devotee. He was already experiencing joy

billions of times greater than what is found within this material world. Thus, he had no desire to enter this material plane and instead prayed to increase his service (and subsequent happiness) by becoming a creeper in Vrndavana.

 

Also, excellent point from the previous post in reference to how the previous Acaryas make a distinction between tatastha shakti and antaranga shakti, and how the jivas within this material plane are tatastha, not antaranga, except for those who come here by the will of the Lord for lila, for preaching

purposes, as Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, and Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada did for the Sankirtana lila.

[krsna]

 

... the previous Acaryas make a distinction between tatastha shakti and antaranga shakti, and how the jivas within this material plane are tatastha, not antaranga, except for those who come here by the will of the Lord for lila, for preaching

purposes, as Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, and Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada did for the Sankirtana lila.

 

Clear distinction is made for those who 'fall' here and those who are 'sent' here by the Lord's superiour arrangement.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

 

Mantra 16

BY: VAMSHI VADANA DAS

 

Mar 1, IRELAND (SUN) —

Sri Isopanishad, probably the most distributed of Srila Prabhupada's small books, 500,000 printed in 1977 alone, was written in 1969. It is within the purport of Mantra 16 we find the answer to the origin of the jiva.

 

• "The all-pervading feature of the Lord-which exists in all circumstances of waking and sleeping as well as in potential states and from which the jiva-shakti (living force) is generated as both conditioned and liberated souls-is known as Brahman."
  
  

 

As to why, later on, Srila Prabhupada saw fit to not be so clear on this point, it seems His Divine Grace was aware of his young students fragile faith and tendency to impersonalism and so acted accordingly.

 

So the jiva's in the local garbage dump did not and have not ever tasted eternal rasa and bliss and then one day decided this is not enough, I think I'll go to the lower energy for a higher taste.

 

Free will is never removed from the jiva and so they will always have choice, but their forms of Sat Chit Ananda and participating in Yoga Maya envelopes them in newer and fresher waves of unending blissful service.

 

 

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