Origin of the Living Entity- Oh No! Here we go again about this jiva-tattva issue!!!

[Guest guest]

 

Togther with a Bengalis speaking friend I have been reading the Brhadbhagavatamrtam in both Bangla and its various English translations.

 

In Srila Sanatana Goswami's tika (commentary) he says a whole lot of things that utterly crush the misconceptions promoted by Pradyumna Swami and his acolytes.

 

But what use will it be to present them here.

 

These people are Prabhupadanugas, not Gaudiyas.

 

They will never accept.... what Sanatana Goswami says.

So please present it here for the aspiring Gaudiyas!

[Guest guest]

Before getting to other things, and so the issue is clearer, first of all there is this statement of Thakura Bhaktivinoda in the book he wrote called Sri Tattva Sutra.

 

I am reading from the Sree Gaudiya Math Madras edition published in 1979

 

The point to understand here is that the spiritual form of the soul is consciousness. The form of the self and the self itself are inseparable

 

========================

 

Thakura Bhaktivinoda

Sri Tattva Sutra verse 16

 

vicararagau cetana dharmau svarupa pravrtti bhavat

 

TRANSLATION

The characteristic nature of the sentient spirit is cognition and the inclination of the sentient spirit is to feel love.

 

(((Muralidhar NOTE "cognition": the soul is consciousness; "love" the activity of the sentient soul is to love others [be it Maya or Krsna, every sentient being has a natural inclination to love another being])))

 

Sanskrit commentary to Sri Tattva Sutra verse 16 written by Thakura Bhaktivinoda:

 

Every object is endowed with these two components of an intrinsic form (svarupa) as well as its characteristic nature (pravriti). The form of the jivatma is jnana (knowledge, consciousness, cognition). The nature or inclination of the jivatma is love (anuraga). The Supreme Lord alone is the object of this love. In the conditioned state of the jiva-souls this love is applied towards the secondary objects of Maya. In this regard Prahlada says in the Visnu Puranam:

 

"Fools fall in love with what the material senses see. I am not like them. O Supreme Lord, I have fallen in love with You. I always think of You. I pray that You will never leave my heart."

[Guest guest]

In regard to the verse of Sri Tattva Sutra I just posted, I would like to make some additional comments.

 

vicararagau cetana dharmau svarupa pravrtti bhavat

TRANSLATION

The characteristic nature of the sentient spirit is cognition and the inclination of the sentient spirit is to feel love.

 

Sentient spirit in this verse is a translation of the word "cetana" or chaitanya.

 

The nature of the form of the self [dharmau svarupa] is "cetana" or chaitanya.

 

That is, the inherent quality of the spiritual body (it's dharma, or in other words the jaiva dharma) is that the spiritual body is consciousness. This consciousness is seeking love or "bhavat". The soul is always seeking love.

[theist]

 

The most obvious and most fundamental error in this philsophy being presented is that it is argued our souls remain in the spiritual world while we are here. The spiritual form of the self is never separated from the self. I will post quotations later, when i have time.

 

No this is not correct Murali. It is similar to being in a room and daydreaming you are acting out as a king on the other side of the world. You get so engrossd in what you are dreaming you are doing as king that you totally forget your real life back at home.

 

Are you separated from yourself or are you misidentifying yourself as something you are not. That is the function of ahakara. It is simple to see whether you think you are a pinpoint of spiritual awareness with no form other than a dot or if you think you have a spiritual cowherd body in Goloka. In both cases you are spiritual but yet have you realized that? That is the type of separation it is. We are not separated from ourself or Krsna at anytime but we are in the illusion that we are.

[Guest guest]

Thakura Bhaktivinoda

Sri Tattva Sutra verse 19

 

anartha nivrttir muktih svapada prapakatvat

 

TRANSLATION

Cessation of unwanted miseries brings back the liberation of the jiva souls by revealing their normal character.

 

Sanskrit commentary to Sri Tattva Sutra verse 19 written by Thakura Bhaktivinoda:

 

Misidentification with the material body places the soul in an inauspicious condition, a condition that breeds worthless material desires. By renouncing those material desires, the soul becomes free from the cycle of repeated birth and death. This is so because by that renunciation the soul attains its original nature, which is spiritual and full of bliss. That is the meaning here. This is described in the following words of Taittiriya Upanisad (2.4.1):

 

"O saintly one, a person who knows spiritual bliss never fears."

 

In Sandilya's Bhakti-sutra (3.2.93) it is said:

 

"The soul is both one and different from the Supreme. When he is freed from the material body, the soul is glorious like the sun."

 

In the Katha Upanisad (1.2.17-18) it is said:

 

17. Depend on This, the best. Depend on This, the ultimate. Whoever knows that upon this syllable Om alone all things depend, that knowing person is glorious in the world of Brahman.

 

18. For the self there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does He ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain.

 

In the Katha Upanisad (1.2.6), Yamaraja says:

 

"Fools intoxicated by wealth say this world is all and there is no other. These fools will not be glorious in their next birth. Again and again they will come under my grip."

 

In the Katha Upanisad (1.2.9) it is also said:

 

"O dear one, the truth cannot be known by material logic. It is known only by learning it from a self-realised soul. because you are sincere and determined, you have learned the truth. O dear Naciketa. I pray that my other disciples will be like you."

 

The words of the sages are our bridge to understand the truth. In the Mahabharata (Bhisma-parva 5.22) it is said:

 

"Anything transcendental to material nature is called inconceivable, whereas arguments are all mundane. Since mundane arguments cannot touch transcendental subject matters, one should not try to understand transcendental subject matters through mundane arguments."*

 

In Sri Vyasa's Vedanta-suta (2.1.11) it is said:

 

"Transcendental topics cannot be understood by argument or logic."*

 

In Srimad Bhagavatam (1.2.21), Sri Suta Gosvami explains:

 

"Thus the knot in the heart is pierced, and all misgiving are cut to pieces. The chain of fruitive actions is terminated when one sees the Self as the master."*

 

Liberation is described in these words of Srimad Bhagavatam (2.10.6):

 

"Liberation is the permanent situation of the form of the living entity after he gives up the changeable gross and subtle material bodies."*

[Guest guest]

 

No this is not correct Murali. It is similar to being in a room and daydreaming you are acting out as a king on the other side of the world.

What you are saying has some truth in it, but there is no statement anywhere in the scriptures saying that souls in Vaikuntha are having dreams about material life.

 

Have you ever seen such a statment anywhere?

 

Aside from that, the svarupa-siddhi of the soul (the spiritual body) is fully sat-chit-ananda and as such a spiritual being cannot be overwhelmed by Maya. There are many statements in the scripture confirming this. Do I need to find those statements? Surely everyone has read this in Prabhupada's books.

[Guest guest]

Chhandogya Upanishad, 12.2

 

This serene Being, arising from the body and reaching the Highest Light, appear in His own form. In that state He is the Highest Person (uttama purusha). There He moves about, laughing, playing, rejoicing - be it with women, chariots, or relatives, never concerned about the body into which he was born.

[Guest guest]

As the verse above from the Chhandogya Upanishad says, a liberated soul is not affected by the things around him. This verse clearly refers to a soul attaining brahman realization - the "Highest Light".

 

However although a soul can attain brahman realization if they don't become submissive to Bhagavan then they fall back into illusion - and this has been happening from a time that has no beginning.

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 10.2.32

 

ye 'nye 'ravindākṣa vimukta-māninas

tvayy asta-bhāvād aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ

āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraḿ padaḿ tataḥ

patanty adho 'nādṛta-yuṣmad-ańghrayaḥ

 

O lotus-eyed Lord, although nondevotees who accept severe austerities and penances to achieve the highest position of Brahman liberation may think themselves liberated, their intelligence is impure. They fall down from their position of imagined superiority because they have no regard for Your lotus feet.

[Guest guest]

In Brhad Bhagatamrtam, in the commentary to verse 2.2.207, Sri Sanatana Goswami wrote:

 

O great sage, among many millions who are liberated and perfect in knowledge of liberation, one may be a devotee of Lord Narayana, or Krishna. Such devotees, who are fully peaceful, are extremely rare. Impersonalists generally imagine themselves perfect and liberated, and among them a very few may actually attain impersonal liberation. But those rare souls, like all others, are eternal servants of Hari, the all attractive Lord. Out of millions of such rare liberated impersonalists, one very fortunate soul may realize this natural fact. Since intelligence is dormant in the “merged” soul, it can be reawakened. Even the liberated souls who have merged into the formless divine light of the spiritual sky retain their eternal spiritual bodies, complete with spiritual mind and senses. Nothing, not even liberation, can ever deprive a jiva of these assets. The muktas worship Hari's most attractive attributes and glories with spiritual bodies. Such worship is not done with material bodies and senses. Consequently the muktas hear and chant with spiritual bodies and senses.

 

 

In his commentary to verse 2.2.186 of Sri Brhadbhagavatamrtam, Srila Sanatan Gosvami quotes Shankaracarya's verse, “mukta api lilaya vigraham kritva bhagavantam bhajanta”, which he translated as “Even the liberated assume a form and worship the Lord in his pastimes”. Srila Sanatan Gosvami then quotes Srimad Bhagavatam 6.14.5 “muktanam api siddhanam narayana parayana”, that is, “The liberated and perfected souls are engaged in Narayan's service.” Then Srila Sanatan Gosvami asks himself: “If liberated souls didn't have forms then how could they engage in the Lord's service?” The answer: “Bhagavati layam praptasyapi nri dehasya mahamuneh punar narayana rupena pradurbhavah”. Even those who have merged into the Lord have dormant human forms.

 

 

 

==============

I won't post any more things now.

 

I think I have posted too many things here already.

[Guest guest]

 

The dark cloud (mahat-tattva) is where ones introverted dreaming forgetful consciousness becomes active however, the knowledge to tell the difference between dreams and reality is lost. We forced Krishna to allow us to come to this material universe, He warned us, but we came anyway. He left that choice up to us.

 

Please provide scripture references to back up these statements.

 

Where in the scriptures does it say "we forced Krishna to allow us to come to the material universe"

 

Where in the scriptures does it say "He warned us, but we came anyway."

 

You may feel this is a convincing story but it is not backed up by scripture.

[theist]

 

What you are saying has some truth in it, but there is no statement anywhere in the scriptures saying that souls in Vaikuntha are having dreams about material life.

The point I was making is no one is describing a complete separation of the self from itself. No one is saying that lifeless forms are left in Vaikuntha for some "time" while the self wanders around the material world.

 

I am not taking a side in this debate but I want to understand each position correctly. I respectfully submit that you are missing this essential point of your opponents position.

 

Even if you "fell" from the Brahman the truth is you haven't moved at all as time and space have no relevance in the brahman. It is the same thing you have projected your consciousness into the material dream. So if you are a cowherd boy or a pin point of consciousness it is the same principle.

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

The point I was making is no one is describing a complete separation of the self from itself. No one is saying that lifeless forms are left in Vaikuntha for some "time" while the self wanders around the material world.

 

I am not taking a side in this debate but I want to understand each position correctly. I respectfully submit that you are missing this essential point of your opponents position.

 

Even if you "fell" from the Brahman the truth is you haven't moved at all as time and space have no relevance in the brahman. It is the same thing you have projected your consciousness into the material dream.

 

Theist, I believe what you are saying is right in a sense, because the scriptures say souls in samadhi in Brahman are not aware of past, present and future, up, down, in, out, left, right or any other dualities. They live in the formless bliss of nir-visesha (no variety) Brahman.

 

But this doesn't mean that "time stands still" in Vaikuntha, or in Brahman for that matter. Brahman is living, it is not static.

 

Time is progressing in Vaikuntha, simultaneous with time progressing here in this world. And simultaneous also with the exprerience souls in Brahman are enjoying when they are swimming in rays of light.

 

 

81 Then, the Lord said: Welcome! Welcome! Child, it is so fortunate, so fortunate, that you are here with Me. For so long I have longed to see you.

82 Dear friend, somehow you passed many births without coming to see Me.

83 Hoping that in this, in this, in this, in this birth you would turn to Me, I danced as a fool.

84 Brother, I could not find a pretext to bring you to My abode and still protect the ancient rules of religion.

85-6 Seeing that you had not attained My mercy, I became overcome with mercy for you. Ignoring the rules of karma, I gave you a birth on Govardhana Hill, My favourite place, and then, O dear friend, I became your guru, who was named Jayanta.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that this is described in Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.7.42.

87 Today you have suddenly fulfilled my long-cherished desire. Please stay here always and make Me happy.

 

The Lord is watching souls in Maya and he wants them to come to him. As he says in the quote above "For so long I have longed to see you." Time is moving on in Vaikuntha, simultaneous with life happening here.

 

So while our souls are involved in Maya long aeons of time are passing in Vaikuntha. What are our bodies in Vaikuntha doing while our minds are in Maya?

 

 

Maya does (not) overwhelm the soul like in a kidnapping or something, the soul gives itself over to maya and deepens his own entanglement.

 

I believe you meant to add the word (not) in what you wrote. The chhandogya verse states that a liberated soul is not entangled by relationships or anything like that - he is free, even if he is riding on a chariot with women (according to Chhandogya). How does one fall down? By falsely imagining oneself as the Lord of the Universe.

 

 

Vedanta Sutra verse 4.4.8

<em>Sankalpadhikaranam</em>

Translation: But by mere will the liberated souls attain whatever they propose - the scriptures say it is so.

 

Vedanta Sutra verse 4.4.9

<em>Ata eva chananyadhipatih</em>

Translation: And for this very same reason the released soul is without another Lord.

 

Vedanta Sutra verse 4.4.10

<em>Abhavam baadariraha hyevam</em>

Translation: A liberated soul who has attained Brahmaloka can exist with or without a body according to his liking.

 

...

 

Vedanta Sutra verse 4.4.17

<em>Jagadvyaparadhikaranam</em>

Translation: The liberated soul which has attained Brahmaloka has all the lordly powers except the power of creation.

 

A Brahman realized soul may awaken to the fact that a particular Universe exists. And a Brahman realized soul can find himself in a postion where he is born as a "Brahma". But then this Brahma may fail to realize how in the action of creation he is merely an instrument or a channel through which the Power of the Supreme Lord is flowing. They think "I am God" and don't realize they are not the Absolute Lord Himself:

 

Vedanta Sutra verse 4.4.17

<em>Jagadvyaparadhikaranam</em>

Translation: The liberated soul which has attained Brahmaloka has all the lordly powers except the power of creation.

 

 

The first position of a soul in the material world will be like that of Brahma, the creator. Then his karma may take him to the body of a beast like a tiger, where he is surrounded by a tigerish mentality, or to the body of a tree or creeper, where different impressions may surround him. In this way, one becomes involved in action and reaction. The case is complex; to analyze the details of the history of a particular atom is unnecessary. We are concerned with the general thing: how the transformation of the material conception springs from pure consciousness.

 

I believe I do understand what Venu Gopal et al are saying.

 

It is only that I am convinced they are wrong.

 

The spiritual bodies in Vaikuntha do not dream about Maya and imagine they are living lifetimes in Maya. Rather, *nitya-samsara* souls who have a dormant spiritual body with them are being born in Maya since a time that has no beginning.

 

(*nitya-samsara* or "nitya-baddha" is the name given to the jiva souls in the Caitanya Caritamrta. The word Nitya means "eternal". The jiva souls are in nitya-samsara ).

[Guest guest]

 

Please provide scripture references to back up these statements.

 

Where in the scriptures does it say "we forced Krishna to allow us to come to the material universe"

 

Where in the scriptures does it say "He warned us, but we came anyway."

 

You may feel this is a convincing story but it is not backed up by scripture.

 

Prabhupada: ‘Yes. You forced Krishna to allow you to come. Just like sometimes a child forces his father. Father says, "My dear son, do not do this. Do not go there." But he insists, "Oh, I must go. I must go.All right, you go at your risk. That's all. And you suffer. What can be done?" Because you are son of God--God has got independence, full independence, almighty--therefore you have acquired the quality of your father. You have got little independence. So God does not interfere with your little independence. If you persist that "I must go and enjoy independently," so God says, "All right, you can go." This is the position. You have to take sanction. That is a fact. But when you persist, God sanctions. And you come and enjoy. Beginning from Lord Brahma down to the worms in the stool, gradually, according to your work, according to your desire, you manufacture your different types of body and enjoy and suffer. That's all. That is explained. Prakrti-stho hi bhunkte prakrti-jan gunan. And as soon as you became entangled in different types of punishment, not enjoyment but punishment.

 

Srila Prabhupada in his lectures always says that originally we were all Krishna-conscious living entities and on the Hare Krishna album He addresses a large audience with the words: "We are all originally Krishna conscious entities . . ."

 

The most important aurthority on all Vedic texts is Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada who single handedly brought Krishna Consciousness to the West and further more revived the teachings of Lord Caitanya back in India. Non of you people out there would know anything about Krshna and Lord Chaitanya if it was not for him.

[Guest guest]

Krsna book chapter 89

 

(Mahavisnu meets with Krsna and Arjuna)

 

"My dear Krsna and Arjuna, I was very anxious to see you both, and therefore I arranged to take away the babies of the brahmana and keep them here. I have been expecting to see you both at this palace. You have appeared in the material world as My incarnations in order to minimize the force of the demoniac persons who burden the world. Now after killing all these unwanted demons, you will please again come back to Me. Both of you are incarnations of the great sage Nara-Narayana. Although you are both complete in yourselves, to protect the devotees and to annihilate the demons and especially to establish religious principles in the world so that peace and tranquillity may continue, you are teaching the basic principles of factual religion so that the people of the world may follow you and thereby be peaceful and prosperous."

 

Lord Narayana says he has been "expecting" to see Krsna and Arjuna.

 

He was waiting, while events on Earth unfolded.

[Guest guest]

 

Prabhupada: ‘Yes. You forced Krishna to allow you to come. Just like sometimes a child forces his father. Father says, "My dear son, do not do this. Do not go there." But he insists, "Oh, I must go. I must go.All right, you go at your risk. That's all. And you suffer. What can be done?" Because you are son of God--God has got independence, full independence, almighty--therefore you have acquired the quality of your father. You have got little independence. So God does not interfere with your little independence. If you persist that "I must go and enjoy independently," so God says, "All right, you can go." This is the position. You have to take sanction. That is a fact. But when you persist, God sanctions. And you come and enjoy. Beginning from Lord Brahma down to the worms in the stool, gradually, according to your work, according to your desire, you manufacture your different types of body and enjoy and suffer. That's all. That is explained. Prakrti-stho hi bhunkte prakrti-jan gunan. And as soon as you became entangled in different types of punishment, not enjoyment but punishment.

 

Srila Prabhupada in his lectures always says that originally we were all Krishna-conscious living entities and on the Hare Krishna album He addresses a large audience with the words: "We are all originally Krishna conscious entities . . ."

 

The most important aurthority on all Vedic texts is Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada who single handedly brought Krishna Consciousness to the West and further more revived the teachings of Lord Caitanya back in India. Non of you people out there would know anything about Krshna and Lord Chaitanya if it was not for him.

 

So at this point, I will withdraw from the discussion.

[Guest guest]

 

Show me a verse, any verse in scripture, which says this process you describe is true. Where does it say a jiva is produced from the suddha-sattva chit potency by a process, as you say, where "one has ‘consciously’ extend(ed) themselves to the mahat-tattva"

 

You philosophy is pure speculation not backed up by authentic shastras.

 

70-04-25. Letter: Jagadisa

Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? the souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence. but those who are firmly fixed up in devotional service to krsna are making proper use of their independence and so they do not fall down.

 

Srila Prabhupada: - the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. but his relationship with krsna is never lost, simply it is forgotten by the influence of maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the holy name of krsna and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the lord which is his original or constitutional position. the relationship of the living entity with krsna is eternal as both krsna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new

[theist]

 

Theist, I believe what you are saying is right in a sense, because the scriptures say souls in samadhi in Brahman are not aware of past, present and future, up, down, in, out, left, right or any other dualities. They live in the formless bliss of nir-visesha (no variety) Brahman.

 

But this doesn't mean that "time stands still" in Vaikuntha, or in Brahman for that matter. Brahman is living, it is not static.

 

Time is progressing in Vaikuntha, simultaneous with time progressing here in this world. And simultaneous also with the exprerience souls in Brahman are enjoying when they are swimming in rays of light.

 

I still am convinced that you are projecting your idea of material linear time onto Vaikuntha. We will have to agree to disagree here. Which is a major point I feel.

 

 

 

 

The Lord is watching souls in Maya and he wants them to come to him. As he says in the quote above "For so long I have longed to see you." Time is moving on in Vaikuntha, simultaneous with life happening here.

 

So while our souls are involved in Maya long aeons of time are passing in Vaikuntha. What are our bodies in Vaikuntha doing while our minds are in Maya?

 

My feeling is that scriptures are written in a way that is understandable to us. Time is not effecting Krsna. He may even play so but He is not controlled by His energies.

 

 

 

 

I believe you meant to add the word (not) in what you wrote. The chhandogya verse states that a liberated soul is not entangled by relationships or anything like that - he is free, even if he is riding on a chariot with women (according to Chhandogya). How does one fall down? By falsely imagining oneself as the Lord of the Universe.

 

Yes quite a typo huh? I agree with this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I believe I do understand what Venu Gopal et al are saying.

 

It is only that I am convinced they are wrong.

OK

 

{quote]The spiritual bodies in Vaikuntha do not dream about Maya and imagine they are living lifetimes in Maya. Rather, *nitya-samsara* souls who have a dormant spiritual body with them are being born in Maya since a time that has no beginning.

[Beggar]

 

 

We are now Sat Chit Ananda we have just forgotten.

 

As I mentioned previously, Srila Sridhar Maharaja told that Srila Bhaktivinode Thakure wrote (does anybody know the exact quote?) that the conditioned jiva soul is not considered sat-cit-ananda. When some anti-party godbrothers heard the preaching of Srila Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada's disciples that the conditioned jiva is sat-cit-ananda just like Sri Bhagavan (one in quality) they objected that Swami Maharaja has taught some apasiddhanta to his disciples.

Srila Sridhar Maharaja told the anti-party godbrothers that what Swami Maharaja has told is true because of the principle, also taught by Bhaktivinode Thakur that "everything is known by it's potential". So at this level of discussion of Gaudiya Siddhanta it is necessary to qualify the concept that the conditioned jiva is sat-cit-ananda for he is not, yet he has the potential to become sat-cit-ananda, one in quality with the Lord. Yet inconcievably he is sat-cit-ananda because everything is known by its potential.

Now here is where this discussion is leading. It's not that we are in the spiritual world dreaming that we are in the material world for that is only an analogy. It is like we are in the spiritual world and dreaming that we are in the material world. The statement is figurative and not literal. This is a clear example of why "we cannot get everything from one guru".

[Guest guest]

 

 

{quote}The spiritual bodies in Vaikuntha do not dream about Maya and imagine they are living lifetimes in Maya. Rather, *nitya-samsara* souls who have a dormant spiritual body with them are being born in Maya since a time that has no beginning.{/quote}

 

Here is a question for you. This dormant spiritual body does it have form or not?

 

 

MURALIDHAR: Yes it has a form. It is in the form of consciousness. Srila Sridhar Maharaj told us that he was told by Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakura that some souls originate from the halo of Sri Radha. Ultimately, if you are from that halo you will manifest similarly to the form of the consciousness you are projecting from.

 

 

 

In what dimension is it presently existing?

 

 

The soul and the spiritual body are one and the same thing. Where the soul is, there you will find the spiritual body.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada has explained it differently. The same jiva can be called nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta depending on which energy he is under.

 

No difference here - all the Vaishnavas agree on this point. The scriptures proclaim this to be true.

 

Nitya-baddha, in the sense that our illusion has no beginning. But it can have an end.

[Guest guest]

 

As I mentioned previously, Srila Sridhar Maharaja told that Srila Bhaktivinode Thakure wrote (does anybody know the exact quote?) that the conditioned jiva soul is not considered sat-cit-ananda. When some anti-party godbrothers heard the preaching of Srila Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada's disciples that the conditioned jiva is sat-cit-ananda just like Sri Bhagavan (one in quality) they objected that Swami Maharaja has taught some apasiddhanta to his disciples.

Srila Sridhar Maharaja told the anti-party godbrothers that what Swami Maharaja has told is true because of the principle, also taught by Bhaktivinode Thakur that "everything is known by it's potential". So at this level of discussion of Gaudiya Siddhanta it is necessary to qualify the concept that the conditioned jiva is sat-cit-ananda for he is not, yet he has the potential to become sat-cit-ananda, one in quality with the Lord. Yet inconcievably he is sat-cit-ananda because everything is known by its potential.

Now here is where this discussion is leading. It's not that we are in the spiritual world dreaming that we are in the material world for that is only an analogy. It is like we are in the spiritual world and dreaming that we are in the material world. The statement is figurative and not literal. This is a clear example of why "we cannot get everything from one guru".

 

 

This also is dealt with in depth in Brhadbhagavatamrtam

 

Jiva has atomic ananda. A tiny particle of bliss. Only when we open our hearts to Bhagavan will we enter into the unlimited ocean of bliss of Jagad-ananda Sri Radha Krishna.

[theist]

 

The soul and the spiritual body are one and the same thing. Where the soul is, there you will find the spiritual body.

 

 

The question is where is the spiritual body right now? Why do you think it so impossible that the spiritual body is on the spiritual plane?

[Guest guest]

 

Here is a question for you. This dormant spiritual body does it have form or not?

 

Maybe you missed noticing this quote I gave. So many quotes here... it is natural that people will just scan things and not read things carefully.

 

 

In his commentary to verse 2.2.186 of Sri Brhadbhagavatamrtam, Srila Sanatan Gosvami quotes Shankaracarya's verse, “mukta api lilaya vigraham kritva bhagavantam bhajanta”, which he translated as “Even the liberated assume a form and worship the Lord in his pastimes”. Srila Sanatan Gosvami then quotes Srimad Bhagavatam 6.14.5 “muktanam api siddhanam narayana parayana”, that is, “The liberated and perfected souls are engaged in Narayan's service.” Then Srila Sanatan Gosvami asks himself: “If liberated souls didn't have forms then how could they engage in the Lord's service?” The answer: “Bhagavati layam praptasyapi nri dehasya mahamuneh punar narayana rupena pradurbhavah”. Even those who have merged into the Lord have dormant human forms.

 

This dormant human form has eyes, ears, etc..

 

Brhad Bhagatamrtam, in the commentary to verse 2.2.207, Sri Sanatana Goswami wrote:

 

O great sage, among many millions who are liberated and perfect in knowledge of liberation, one may be a devotee of Lord Narayana, or Krishna. Such devotees, who are fully peaceful, are extremely rare. Impersonalists generally imagine themselves perfect and liberated, and among them a very few may actually attain impersonal liberation. But those rare souls, like all others, are eternal servants of Hari, the all attractive Lord. Out of millions of such rare liberated impersonalists, one very fortunate soul may realize this natural fact. Since intelligence is dormant in the “merged” soul, it can be reawakened. Even the liberated souls who have merged into the formless divine light of the spiritual sky retain their eternal spiritual bodies, complete with spiritual mind and senses. Nothing, not even liberation, can ever deprive a jiva of these assets. The muktas worship Hari's most attractive attributes and glories with spiritual bodies. Such worship is not done with material bodies and senses. Consequently the muktas hear and chant with spiritual bodies and senses.

 

[theist]

 

MURALIDHAR: Yes it has a form. It is in the form of consciousness. Srila Sridhar Maharaj told us that he was told by Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakura that some souls originate from the halo of Sri Radha. Ultimately, if you are from that halo you will manifest similarly to the form of the consciousness you are projecting from.

 

 

 

 

The soul and the spiritual body are one and the same thing. Where the soul is, there you will find the spiritual body.

 

 

 

No difference here - all the Vaishnavas agree on this point. The scriptures proclaim this to be true.

 

Nitya-baddha, in the sense that our illusion has no beginning. But it can have an end.

 

We understand this differently also. As marginal energy we have the ability to move from one atmosphere to the other. When we drop into material consciousness we are considered eternally bound because that is all we have awareness of.

[Guest guest]

 

The question is where is the spiritual body right now? Why do you think it so impossible that the spiritual body is on the spiritual plane?

 

The scriptures say we do not get given a spiritual body at any time. The spiritual body is dormant within us.

 

See Vedanta Sutra 4.1.1 for a detailed discussion about this. Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada also says the same thing

[Guest guest]

 

The question is where is the spiritual body right now? Why do you think it so impossible that the spiritual body is on the spiritual plane?

 

 

Vedanta Sutra, 4.4. 1

 

(translation by Bhakti Caitanya Swami of ISKCON)

 

akaitave bhakti-save 'nurajyan svam eva yaù sevakasät karoti

tato 'ti-modaà muditaù sa devaù sadä cid-änanda-tanur dhinotu

May the Supreme Personality of Godhead, whose form is eternal and full of knowledge and bliss, and who, pleased with His devotees sincere devotion, gives Himself to them, fill us with transcendental happiness.

The Original Forms of the Liberated Souls

Introduction by Çréla Baladeva Vidyäbhüñaëa

 

In this section of Vedanta-sutra the original forms of the liberated souls will be described first, and then their glory, opulence, bliss, and other features. In the Chändogya Upaniñad (8.12.3) the god Brahmä states:

evam evaiña samprasädo 'smät çarérät samutthäya paraà jyotir upasampadya svena rüpeëäbhiniñpadyate sa uttamaù puruñaù

“By the Supreme Lord's mercy, the enlightened soul leaves his material body and enters the effulgent spiritual world. There he attains his own spiritual body. He becomes the most exalted of persons."

 

Saàçaya (a doubt arises): Does the liberated soul attain a body, like the bodies of the demigods, that is different from himself, or does the manifest his original identity, which is not different from himself?

Pürvapakña (the opponent speaks): he attains a body different from himself. This must be so because the word “abhiniñpadyate" (is attained) is mentioned in the verse of Chändogya Upaniñad. Any other interpretation would make this word meaningless and would also make meaningless the scriptures' statement that liberation is a benefit attained by the soul. If this form is only the original nature of the soul and it had existed all along, then attaining it would not be a benefit granted to the soul. Therefore this form is newly attained by the soul and is different from the soul's original nature.

Siddhänta (Vyasa’s conclusion): In the following words Vyas, the author of Vedanta-sutra, gives His conclusion.

Sütra 4.4.1

sampadyävirbhävaù svena-çabdät

sampadya—of he who has attained; ävirbhävaù—manifestation; svena—svena; çabdät—by the word.

 

Because of the word "svena" it is the manifestation of he who has gone.

Commentary by Çréla Baladeva Vidyäbhüñaëa

The individual soul who, by means of devotional service accompanied with knowledge and renunciation, attains the effulgent Supreme, becomes free from the bondage of karma and attains a body endowed with eight virtues. This body is said to be the soul's original form. Why is that? The sütra explains, "svena-çabdät" (because of the word "svena"). The word "svena" here means, "in his own original form". For this reason it cannot be said that this passage means, "the soul arrives there and then accepts a form which is an external imposition". In that way it is proved that the form here is the original form of the soul. This is not contradicted by the use of the word "niñpadyate" in the verse of Chändogya Upaniñad, for that word is also used to mean, "is manifested". An example of that usage is seen in the following words found elsewhere the Çruti-çästra:

idam ekaà su-niñpannam

"He is manifested."

 

Also, it is not that the manifestation of the soul's original form cannot be a goal of human endeavour, because it already exists. This is so because even though the soul's original form exists it is not openly manifested. Therefore it is not useless to say that the soul may endeavour to make manifest the original form of the soul.

 

Here someone may say: When the soul is manifested in its original form and it attains the effulgent Supreme, as described in the words "paraà jyotir upasampadya", the liberated state thus attained is characterized mainly by the cessation of all material sufferings. But if this is said, then I reply, no, it is not so. The Çruti-çästra explains that in the liberated state the soul is filled with intense spiritual bliss. This is described in Taittiréya Upaniñad (2.7):

rasaà hy eväyaà labdhvänandé-bhavati

"When someone realizes God, the reservoir of pleasure, he becomes blissful."