Neo-Madhva misinterpretations [SatyakAma's being illegitimate]

[Guest guest]

Namaskar Carl-ji,

 

I am with you in your assessment that brahmins need to live up to

their standard of behavior and qualities, and that other castes also

should be encouraged to cultivate brahminical qualities, even though

they may not be brahmins "caste-wise".

 

Since I am agreed with you on this, I saw nothing extra in the mail

you quoted. You did not address the point where there is

disagreement - how do you determine the caste of a person for the

purpose of Veda-adhikara?

 

> FYI, there have been many prominent modern Maadhvas (and others)

also who concur with the minds of modern Gaudiyas.

 

There was nothing the Madhvas you quoted have concurred to with

modern Gaudiyas on the issue of Veda-adhikara.

 

>

> QUOTE "...It is to be specially noted here, that there is a general

> agreement between the fammous religious teachers on this point.

> Therefore, it is the bounden duty of every Bharatiya to protect this

> sacredness of Vedas at all costs. And, it is in token of this, that

> we wear and mst wear the sacred thread which is so spun as to be the

> symbol of the Vedas. Brahmins, Kshatriyas and Vaishyas wear it.

> Especially Brahmins, if they are to be real Brahmins, shall never

> neglect it. Because after all, Bharatiya culture is nothing, on the

> whole, but Brahminism, however much others may fret and frown.

 

Agreed.

 

>

> "A time there was when Brahmins were taken to task for not allowing

> others to study the Vedas. Brahmins were then guilty of not

> explaining clearly the real spirit underlying such injunctions.

 

Agreed. Note that he says the real spirit behind such injunctions is

to be understood, not that you violate the injunction itself.

 

>

> "Now that the doors are opened since many years, perhaps forcibly,

> howmany are there who have taken advantage of the Vedas for their

> spiritual salvation? By some, they have been utterly thrown into the

> background, if not the lumber room. Some others who do study the

> Vedas do soonly to drag them down to the level of historic or

> prehistoric documents.

 

This only goes to show that "the doors being opened" is a bad idea.

 

In this connection, Brahmins themselves are

> not free from blame. Mathadhipatis especially are open to this my

> charge, since they should have been the real custodians of this

> special spiritual treasure.

>

> "Anyhow, the world should remember that the best way to remedy the

> evil and out-do the Brahmins is to imitate Brahminism -- and let go

> the Brahmin caste.

 

This is perhaps where there would be disagreement, particularly since

it is the author's own opinion.

 

But, the cast into which the ancient Brahmin

> Rishis have poured Vedic culture and Sanatan-dharma must remain. So,

> you can dispense with 'Caste' but not the Rishis' ancient 'Cast' or

> mould. All the Acharyas' warnings that "Vaidik Dharma will be

> protected only if Brahmanatva is protected" should always be kept

> before our mind. [The author also quotes shankara's Gita bhAshya

here.] Long, long ago Shri VedsVyasa reminded us, in the

> Mahabharat and Bhagavatam, that a Brahmin's life is specially meant

> for dedicating it, not for Bhoga, but wholly for hard tapas and for

> ultimate thorough happiness...." UNQUOTE

 

Agreed.

 

>

> On this and other subjects covered in the book, the author has

stated:

>

> QUOTE: "On this, the late Padmanabhacharya a perfect orthodox, is

> with me, or rather I am with him. (The Life and Teachings of Shri

> Madhwa, page 301)." UNQUOTE

 

"On this" means on what? Please quote Padmanabhachar on it.

 

>

> So it looks like a lot of orthodox, thinking, modern Madhvas were

> saying what the orthodox, thinking modern Gaudiyas said. The

> difference is that no one actually managed to DO what certain modern

> Gaudiyas accomplished, particularly Shrila Bhaktivedanta Swami. Only

> after his mission did the world (including many modern Indians) hear

> about Madhvacharya.

 

Prabhupada certainly spread bhakti idea well. Vivekananda, Yogananda,

etc also popularized Vedanta well before it. The issue is not about

popularization, it is about being correct.

 

There is also no doubt that Shrila Prabhupada put

> maximum emphasis on the Brahminical mould, which was conceived in

> terms of proven qualifications of guNa and karma, while also

> acknowledging the great advantages of being born into that

> environment.

 

Ok.

 

>

> IMPORTANTLY, in the very beginning of the first chapter, the author

> has lamented:

>

> QUOTE: "But most unfortunate and unpardonable it is, that he

[Madhva]

> should be misunderstood, misinterpreted and misrepresented by his

own

> followers, especially by the learned among them, and that too

> without even caring to study properly." UNQUOTE

>

> The above quote should not raise eyebrows, because such concerns

were

> expressed even as early as the great Tikacharya Jayatirtha.

 

Where? Please supply the quote.

 

> Madhvacharya's works are full of very terse and pithy statements.

> Without Sri Jayatirtha's TIka, we can forget about even beginning to

> understand him.

 

Did Prabhupada read Jayatirtha's Tika? I do not think so - since

Jayatirtha has no TIkA on BhAgavata, and on the Gita, Prabhupada did

not refer Madhvacharya's Bhashya and Tatparya (else there would not

have been philosophical errors in it).

 

[Moderator's Note: Since Prabhupada is considered an authority by many Gaudiyas and Madhvas, please don't drop unsubstantiated statements without a discussion. You may start separate threads on a subject that you are having trouble agreeing with, and members can have a discussion.]

 

> And Shri Jayatirtha sometimes corrected and

> criticized the interpretations of other Maadhva acharyas like Sri

> Narahari-tirtha, who were all committed to the truth. So what to

> speak of cyber-Madhvas with a calumnious agenda.

 

Where has Jayatirtha criticized Narahari Tirtha? It will be helpful

if you can point out a quote.

 

>

> Since this topic is about qualification to study shruti (versus

> smRti), here's another excerpt from the above book:

>

> QUOTE: "By shruti it is to be understood that collection of words of

> which the sense and the words will never vary in every creation,

> whilst Itihasas and Puranas, etc are not so. These also will never

> vary in their sense, though they may ary in the words. That is the

> difference between Shruti and Itihasa." UNQUOTE

 

Agreed.

 

>

> In explaining Madhva's answer to the necessity for religion, the

> author says:

>

> QUOTE: "Religion is the science of Happiness. It teaches you how to

> perform good acts, how to develop fully your thinking faculties and

> raise them to their highest pitch, according to your capacity; it

> teaches you how to purify your heart and obtain the pleasures of

> loving..." UNQUOTE

 

Agreed.

 

>

> In this light, I look forward to Anant ji's thoughtful input on how

> the idea of adhikAra is to be understood, rather than just

> introducing vague doubts about Upanishadic episodes, putting forward

> weak pleas for the social convenience of birth-based caste, and

> finally ad hominem attacks made in the party spirit for which cyber-

> Madhvas have become notorious.

 

The question is the following - are we talking about adhikAra for

moxa or adhikAra for Veda? Your mail seems to be relevant only to the

former.

 

> IMHO, indulging in such nonsense

> sectarianism in the name of "anyathA-jnAna-nindanaM" is ridiculous.

> It does more harm to Shrila Madhva's cause than good.

 

WHat nonsense sectarianism? We are discussing what purvacharyas have

said from both traditions.

 

>

> Until the time of the above quoted book, the author himself says

>that Madhva caste-brahmins were doing little to keep alive, let

>alone aggressively propogate, the Acharya's teachings (as he

explicitly wished). I guess they were too busy breeding pure caste-

brahmins amongst themselves, instead of working to raise common

people to a level at which they could see the light of Madhvacharya's

teachings.

 

There have been ups and downs in Madhva tradition, as there have been

in Gaudiya tradition too. So what? What were the gaudiyas busy doing

before Bhaktivinoda Thakura? Too busy breeding pure sahajiya bhakti?

 

The Haridasa saints, under the guidance of Madhva pithadipathis have

been working to improve social conditions of all classes of people

since the days of Narahari Tirtha. I agree that a lot needs to be

done still.

 

[Deleted]

 

Yours,

 

Anant

 

>

> Regards,

> Carl

>