when is guru to be rejected?

[Guest guest]

What do the scriptures say about when its ok to reject one's Guru? If one's guru falls down then should he be rejected? even if he's still chanting and following all other vedic injunctions? is it true that all sadhakas will eventually fall down even when they are at the intermediate stage?- I read this from an artcile by a vedic astrolger on VNN website.

 

What do you do if you still have much affection and respect for your Guru but he's asking you to do things which you know aren't right? What do you do when you feel that you know what he's saying isn't right and you lose your faith in his divinity and the relationship just becomes mundane? Does this mean that he was never your real (i.e. eternal) gurudeva in the first place? or maybe it means that he's going through a hard time and just needs some time to get fixed up again? but maybe that time would ideally mean a 'freezing' of the guru disciple relationship until guru got fixed up again and again got Krsna's mercy, i.e leaving the shelter of guru for a while and then coming back later? because if you don't freeze and take a little holiday from the relationship you're worried that either you will fall down as well, or that you'll be offensive to the guru and tell him that he's lost the plot.

 

Dear vaishnavas, what are your thoughts and feelings? Please share and enlighten me, I'm lost and my heart does not feel good. Navadwipa

[Shakti-Fan]

<center>Part of Chapter Eight

B. R. Sridhara Maharaja

<tt>Sri Guru & His Grace</tt>

</center>

<center> <tt>Separation

from

Sri Guru

</tt>Abandoning Bogus Gurus

 

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/sri_guru/sri_guru_8.html

 

 

Devotee: If the initiating guru falls down from the path, what should the disciple do?

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: He may take shelter of the holy name of Krsna again and wait for some time. If the guru was at first a sincere disiciple of his spiritual master, and now as a result of some offenses he is being neglected by his guru, he may be led astray for some time. But he may return to the standard again. Still, it is said in the Mahabharata (Udyoga-parva 179.25):

<center> guror apy avaliptasya

karyakaryam ajanatah

utpatha-prathipannasya

parityago vidhiyate </center> "A guru who does not knowwhat is to be done and what is not to be done, who has left the path of devotional service, should be abandoned." This is found in Bhisma's statement in the Mahabharata. Bhisma is one of the twelve mahajanas, and this is his statement to his astra-guru, Parasurama.

Jiva Goswami says that if the guru goes astray he should be abandoned, but there may be circumstances where, by the inconceivable desire of Krsna, the guru may go astray for a time and then come back again. In that case, the disciple should wait for some time. It is very unfortunate for the disciple when such things happen. You will find this elaborately dealt with in the Harinama-cintamani of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. If a son leaves home and disobeys his father, the father may be indifferent to him; he may exclude him from the will. If, however, the son returns after some time and is again obedient, then he may collect his inheritance. In a similar way, a spiritual master may disobey his guru, and then his guru may be indifferent to him for some time, but again if he sets himself right, he will not be disinherited. This is explained in Bhagavad-gita (api cet suduracaro ). So we should not deal very abruptly with these unfortunate incidents, but we should wait and see. Everything must be done judiciously.

In trying to understand the relationships between guru and godbrother and guru and disciple, we will find very subtle points of sentiment. Just as when Krsna entered into the arena of Kamsa, he appeared differently to different persons, the disciples will have one view of their guru and his godbrothers will have another view and disposition. The disciples of a genuine guru will see their guru as being with Krsna, but that may not be seen to his godbrothers. In madhurya-rasa, Krsna is seen in one way, and in vatsalya-rasa, Mother Yasoda sees him in another way. The servants see him in another way. The risis like Gargamuni will see him in another way. As Krsna likes to show himself, he will be seen.

 

</center>

[Shakti-Fan]

When Can You Change Your Diksa-Guru?

Murwillumbah, Australia: Feb. 15, 2002 (Evening, Part 1)

Tridandi Gosvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

Come with me, and give me your full attention. We are going again to Navadvipa, to Godruma-kunja on the bank of Ganges. That place is very enchanting, full of beautiful creepers and flowers. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, the associate of Mahaprabhu, is seated there, and he is now instructing us about what he has seen in his trance. He is explaining how Sannyasi Thakura came from Kasi, Varanasi, to Premadasa Babaji Maharaja, took shelter at his lotus feet, and told him, "I want to be with you, serving you, for my whole life." Premadasa Babaji became very happy and replied, "You are a qualified devotee. I want you to be with me for the rest of your life."

Some days later, Premadasa Babaji Maharaja told Sannyasi Thakura, "I'm going to see my siksa-guru. He is very near here, across the Alakananda River (one of the branches of the Ganges) in Nrsimhapali." You should come with me today." If you have been with me in Gaura Mandala parikrama, you have seen that place. If not, you can come with me this year, and it will be very beautiful. Over twenty thousand devotees will be with me, and they will do nagara-sankirtana on the bank of Ganges in two, three, or four-mile long lines. We will all go to Nrsimhapali on our first day.

When they arrived, Paramahamsa Premadasa Babaji saw his Gurudeva sitting at a very far distance. Calling out, "Jaya Gurudeva," he offered his sastanga pranama, falling down like a stick, with his hands, head, knees, and feet on the ground. And his Gurudeva at once stood up, came forward, and embraced him. This is the behavior of qualified disciples and gurus. Although Pradyumna Brahmacari is the guru and so superior, he picked up his disciple and embraced him as one would his own child.

The guru and disciple then began to glorify Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Nityananda, and they sometimes wept bitterly. Their conversation was reminiscent of that of Srila Rupa Gosvami and Srila Sanatana Gosvami. There was no need at all of asking, "How you are?" and no need to chatter. The guru asked only, "How is your bhajana?" If ones bhajana is okay, then everything will be okay. If ones bhajana is not okay, then nothing is okay.

[srila Narayana Maharaja sees a devotee getting up to leave:] Don't go from here now. Everyone should remain here. Where are you going?

[Devotee:] My next-door neighbors have just arrived. I am getting a seat for them.

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] Don't lose this time. This time is mine. No one may go without my permission. Your guests should come in and kindly be seated. Please come in and sit down. Someone there can give them chairs. Try to hear very patiently and attentively, otherwise you cannot understand these topics.

That former mayavadi sannyasi watched this exemplary behavior of the guru and disciple. In the mayavada cult there is no offering of pranama like this, because the mayavadis misunderstand that everyone is brahma. Who will offer pranama to others? Thinking each other to be Narayana, they only utter, "Namo Narayana, namo Narayana." Here, on the other hand, the disciple thinks himself very wretched, more so than a straw, and he considers that his gurudeva is saksad-hari, a manifestation of the Supreme Lord Himself.

This is the proper behavior. This mood of the Vaisnava remains not only for one or two days, and it is not only external, but internal as well.

After one hour, when their discussion was over, Pradyumna Brahmacari asked Premadasa Babaji, "Who is he?" Sannyasi Thakura then offered sastanga pranama to his paramguru, just as his Gurudeva Premadasa Babaji had done. He had now learned how to properly behave with a guru, how to do pranama in the correct way, and how to discuss with him. He told him, "I am a disciple of Premadasa Babaji Maharaja." Pradyumna Brahmacari became very happy and said, "You are very fortunate to have a guru like Premadasa Babaji Maharaja." He then told him:

kiba vipra, kiba nyasi, sudra kene naya

yei krsna-tatva-vetta, sei 'guru' haya

["Whether one is a brahmana, a sannyasi or a sudra regardless of what he is he can become a spiritual master if he knows the science of Krsna." (Cc Madhya 8.128)]

Guru is he who is krsna-tattva-vetta. He knows the science of Krsna consciousness. It does not matter whether one is initiating others or not. Still he can be guru. If he gives initiation, that is okay, and if not, he may be giving siksa. Even if he does not give siksa, others will benefit simply by seeing his behavior. You should take the darsana of that high class of devotee-bhagavata and hear from him. Even if he does not speak, still, something will come from his body as rays of sunlight emanate from the sun. If you keep kerosene oil, you will be overpowered by its scent.

Similarly, if you go to any high class of devotee, some rays, some fragrance, some power will enter your heart. Whether you can see this or not, whether you can realize this or not, it comes and affects you. Fire never speaks, but its rays and heat come automatically. And, Vaisnavas are still more powerful, for they can control the whole world with their energy.

Prabhupada Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja came, and his fragrance emanated everywhere in a couple of years. He created so many changes; he created miracles.

In this way, Pradyumna Brahmacari was explaining, "Kiba vipra, kiba nyasi, sudra kene naya." Even if one is born in a low-class family, there is no harm. As long as he knows krsna-tattva, maya-tattva, jiva-tattva, prema-tattva, and bhakti-tattva, he is guru. On the other hand, a very learned person who knows Sanskrit as well as Veda, Upanisads, and Brahma-sutra, and has memorized and can recite them all, is not guru if he has no realization of krsna-tattva.

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura is writing here that a sisya should go to a guru who is bona fide in krsna-tattva, who has realized it, who is always chanting the holy name, always detached from worldly desires and sense gratification, and who is greatly attached in Krsna. In the beginning the aspiring disciple should have some sraddha, not full sraddha, but a part of sraddha, by hearing. Then, he should do padasraya; he should take shelter at the lotus feet of that bona fide guru.

Thakura Bhaktivinoda writes that there are two kinds of guru, namely diksa-guru and siksa-guru. One should take diksa from the diksa-guru, and under such a guru's direction he should first do arcana. Cooking is also within the category of the practice of arcana. If you are not pure, you cannot perform any arcana. Purity must be first. You are not fit to do anything if you are contaminated. [some persons may hold their plate with their left hand and then use that left hand to touch clean articles. They may put their shoes in the same bag as their bead-bag, and they put money or keys in their bead-bag. They may touch their shoes and then, without washing their hands, offer something to their gurudeva.]

Especially, your heart should be pure. If you have bad desires in your heart, especially lust and anger, you are not qualified to do arcana. You are neither qualified to cook, nor to serve your gurudeva, nor even to touch his feet. First be pure, and then you can perform these activities.

Otherwise, you will begin to see faults in guru. You will even see faults in Krsna, just as Duryodhana saw faults in Him. There can only be one diksa-guru, although there may be so many siksa-gurus, and both types of gurus should be self-realized. Later in Jaiva Dharma, in chapter 20, Vijaya Kumara asked the question, "Sastra states that the diksa-guru should not be changed or not given up. If one has taken diksa from a guru who is not qualified to give krsna-tattva or krsna-bhakti, what should he do? If the guru cannot help the disciple, what should that disciple do?

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura explains through the reply of Paramahamsa Premadasa Babaji who quoted the verses:

yo vyaktir nyaya-rahitam anyayena srinoti yah

tav ubhau narakam ghoram vrajatah kalam aksayam

"He who poses as an acarya, but gives false instructions that are opposed to the sattvata-sastras, will reside in a terrible hell for an unlimited period of time, and so will the misguided disciple who mistakenly listens to such a false guru." Hari-bhakti-vilasa (1.62)

guror apy avaliptasya karyakaryam ajanatah utpatha-pratipannasya parityago vidhiyate

It is one’s duty to give up a guru who cannot teach the disciple what he should do and what he should not do, and who takes the wrong path, either because of bad association or because he is opposed to Vaisnavas."

Mahabharata Udyoga-parva (179.25) and Narada-pancaratra (1.10.20)

avaisnavopadistena mantrena nirayam vrajet

punas ca vidhina samyag grahayed vaisnavad guroh

"One goes to hell if he accepts mantras from an avaisnava-guru, that is, one who is associating with women, and who is devoid of krisna-bhakti.

Therefore, according to the rules of sastra, one should take mantras again from a Vaisnava guru." Hari-bhakti-vilasa (4.144)

Premadasa Babaji explained, "When you first select a guru, you should try to do pariksya. You should examine him to see whether or not he can give you krsna-bhakti, whether or not he will fall down, whether or not he is practicing bhakti-yoga properly, and whether or not he is actually following his gurudeva or not? Is he chanting one lakh of nama or not? Is he doing arcana or not? Does he have all the symptoms given by Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura in Gurvastakam? 'Saksad haritvena' means that all the qualities of Hari should be in him. If one has not examined and does not know the answer to these queries, and somehow he took initiation but afterwards he saw that this guru is not qualified in the abovementioned areas, he can give up that guru who is not actually bona fide.

One can change or give up that guru under two conditions or circumstances. At the time of selecting a guru and taking diksa, the sisya may not have examined him. He may have become overwhelmed and taken initiation at once, and afterward he may have heard so many things, from books like Srimad-Bhagavatam and from superiors, that this guru cannot actually help him. He may now think, "I took diksa fifteen years ago but there has been no advancement." He can quickly give up that guru. I know so many gurus who never chant. They say to others, "You should chant," but they have no time to chant. They are always talking on telephones, with one phone on each ear.

They are absorbed in management, and they attend many meetings that bring no solution to anyone's problems. If the disciple later on understands this, he should give up that guru, and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has quoted so many slokas in this regard.

The second parastiti (condition) is as follows: Suppose at the time of taking diksa, one's gurudeva was really following the Vaisnava line, he was a madhyama-adhikari, and he knew many tattvas like krsna-tattva, and maya-tattva. Then, after some time, he began to take the association of a mayavadi, sahajiya, or materialist. He stopped chanting, and after that he began to criticize Vaisnavas, no longer accepting the guru-parampara. The sisya should at once give him up, as one passes stool. When one gives up stool, he becomes very happy and he feels fresh. Similarly, upon giving up all these 'kan-gurus', the aspiring devotee will be extremely happy.

On the other hand, if the guru is following all the principles of bhakti, if he is in the line of his gurudeva, if he is chanting and remembering but he is not learned enough to give you krsna-tattva, then don't give him up. With honor for him, take his permission, and go with his permission to associate with exalted Vaisnavas. And, if he does not give permission, you can consider that he is also among the kan-gurus meant for being given up. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has explained all this in chapter 20 of Jaiva Dharma, and I request you all to read this right away.

Sannyasi Thakura's character was extremely high. He knew brahma-tattva, which means he could discriminate between the transcendental and the material, this ability is called brahma-nistha. Bhagavad-gita states:

brahma-bhutah prasannatma

na socati na kanksati

samah sarvesu bhutesu

mad-bhaktim labhate param

["One who is thus transcendentally situated at once realizes the Supreme Brahman and becomes fully joyful. He never laments or desires to have anything. He is equally disposed toward every living entity. In that state he attains pure devotional service unto Me." (Bg 18.54)]

What is the meaning of brahma-bhutah prasannatma?

[sripad Pundarika dasa:] In this verse, Krsna is telling us that the person who has attained this high level is actually the proper candidate to receive or enter into the realm of para-bhakti: mad-bhaktim labhate param. He gets the opportunity to enter into the realm of devotion if he gets the association of highly advanced bona fide Vaisnavas. If he does not get such opportunity, there is all chance that he can lean towards impersonalism and go in a completely opposite direction. It is very important that at this point he seeks association of bona fide sadhus.

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] What is the meaning of na socati? If anything has gone wrong, if one has lost his position, wealth, reputation, and everything else, such a person does not lament. If he one day finds himself homeless, he becomes very happy and thinks, "Now I am okay." If his wife divorces him, he thinks, "Very good; very good. I wanted this. She has done well." In either case he will not be unhappy. Na kanksati. He never has any worldly desire. He only and always wants the association of that high class of Vaisnavas. He wants to serve them, and he especially wants to serve the words coming from their lotus mouths.

tasmin mahan-mukharita madhubhic-caritra-

piyusa-sesa-saritah paritah sravanti

ta ye pibanty avitrso nrpa gadha-karnais

tan na sprsanty asana-trd-bhaya-soka-mohah

["My dear King, in the place where pure devotees live, following the rules and regulations and thus purely conscious and engaged with great eagerness in hearing and chanting the glories of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, in that place if one gets a chance to hear their constant flow of nectar, which is exactly like the waves of a river, one will forget the necessities of life—namely hunger and thirst—and become immune to all kinds of fear, lamentation and illusion." (SB 4.39-40)]

There is always a continuously flowing river of nectar from the mouth of pure devotees. There is no end; no end at all. Nectar ever-increasingly flows from his lotus mouth, and if anyone takes bath in that river of nectar, he will be purified. All kinds of unhappiness, difficulties, sorrows, and problems of life will leave him forever. He will come to this position of na socati na kanksati samah sarvesu bhutesu, and then he will enter into the realm of pure prema-bhakti.

Sannyasi Thakura was already accomplished in this nistha, because he had considered that all were brahma. Now, however, upon meeting Premadasa Babaji, he was becoming situated in krsna-prema pastimes, or lila-nistha.

Now he wanted to know who is Krsna, how He plays in Vrndavana, how beautiful He is, and how He attracts all. This nistha took place by association of a high-class Vaisnava. If one is always in the association of a Vaisnava, he will never fall down or desire to be married. He will never be lusty. If such desires manifest, it will be because he is offending that Vaisnava and not actually associating. Something positive must certainly come from that real guru, who is extremely powerful, and the desire to serve Krsna was now coming to Sannyasi Thakura.

 

1

[theist]

Caitya guru never falls down. Don't place your faith in or give your heart to anyone that Caitya guru has not confirmed to you that that person is His external manifestation and representative on earth.

 

 

What do you do if you still have much affection and respect for your Guru but he's asking you to do things which you know aren't right?

You need to ask? A guru will direct you to do things that are right and not otherwise. Wish him well but don't listen to a character like that. Frauds abound, wolves in sheeps clothing have entered to exploit the flock. Do you want to be a sentimentalist and be exploited? Then do what he asks and be prepared to suffer the result.

[Guest guest]

What you've seen the Guru's siddha deha/eternal spiritual body and also personally seen him talk to the Acharyas who have physically left the planet- should even such a great soul be renounced if they appear to be talking like a karmi? Surely such a person cannot fall down permanently? Does not such a high level of spiritual advancement carry some weight? Does not the grace given by such a Guru to have such amazing realisations demand a little loyalty in return when he appears to be going through a hard time?

 

And besides all this, are there any such elevated devotees around who are at the level that they will not fall down? Please will someone write about any elevated souls whom they currently know. After Srila Prabhupada how come the Lord has not sent us another pure devotee to inspire us? I so wish to see a self effulgent Acharya- maybe they're all hiding somewhere or something?

[brajeshwara das]

Maybe you are looking at your Guru with mundane eyes, really your Guru may be doing seemingly mundane activities but really they are transcendental and beyond your current vision.

 

I hate to relate stories I don't know in detail, but here you go: One very strict Gaudiya Math Guru wouldn't allow anyone in his ashram to read a newspaper, but Srila Sridhar Maharaj came to visit and was given a newspaper to read. Because Srila Sridhar Maharaj was so elevated, there was no question that His mind would be disturbed by the daily news, since it was understood He saw the transcendental nature everywhere.

 

My Gurudeva is Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda dev Goswami Maharaj, who is faithfully leading Srila Sridhar Maharaj's mission and providing sweet shelter to so many sincere seekers. I may be biased but perhaps you could seek His darshan and let your heart decide.

[Guest guest]

How many disiples can a guru accept anyway? I know Srila Prabhupada had many but he was from the spiritual world. Surely there has to be a limit to how many peoples karma a guru can take?

[Beggar]

 

How many disiples can a guru accept anyway? I know Srila Prabhupada had many but he was from the spiritual world. Surely there has to be a limit to how many peoples karma a guru can take?

This is a very complex question. There definitely is an injunction not to take too many disciples but its the reasons that are complex. One time Prabhupada said that he was ill due to the previous sinful activities of his disciples. The question is whether we are to see the guru in that way or not? In his humility he was seeing himself like this. But his followers are seeing that he is so great that this is not possible. But still we are thinking that we must be very strict as to not burden gurudeva. Certainly a kannistha or even low madhyama guru should not take too many disciples. But Srila Prabhupada in "Nectar of Instruction" teaches that one should take an uttama adhikari guru. Anyway I'm sure that someone can give you a better answer.

[brajeshwara das]

 

How many disiples can a guru accept anyway? I know Srila Prabhupada had many but he was from the spiritual world. Surely there has to be a limit to how many peoples karma a guru can take?

 

Who is to say Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupada was the only Guru in such a position? Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math sees Swami Maharaj as a shaktavesh-avatara, certainly so exhalted, but if you have the association of Srila Govinda Maharaj and Srila Sridhar Maharaj, you will realize Guru is there in it's fullest manifestation. And of course this isn't limited to my Guru parampara, I have to believe the mercy of the Lord transcends Gaudya Vaisnavism.

[Guest guest]

 

How many disiples can a guru accept anyway? I know Srila Prabhupada had many but he was from the spiritual world. Surely there has to be a limit to how many peoples karma a guru can take?

 

Srila A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami had about 6,400 disciples.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj had over 8,000

 

Srila Govinda Maharaj has over 10,000

 

Jayapataka Swami has over 16,000 disciples.

 

 

 

Srila Syamananda Goswami who lived in the early seventeeth century had about 250,000 inititated disciples. He used to give ritvik initiation through his directly initiated disciples.

[Guruvani]

 

Srila A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami had about 6,400 disciples.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj had over 8,000

 

Srila Govinda Maharaj has over 10,000

 

Jayapataka Swami has over 16,000 disciples.

 

 

 

Srila Syamananda Goswami who lived in the early seventeeth century had about 250,000 inititated disciples. He used to give ritvik initiation through his directly initiated disciples.

 

so, the previous acharyas "HAD" disciples and the living gurus HAVE disciples, because the previous acharyas are dead and gone.

[anadi]

 

Caitya guru never falls down. Don't place your faith in or give your heart to anyone that Caitya guru has not confirmed to you that that person is His external manifestation and representative on earth.

 

 

This is not Gaudiya Vaishnava Siddhanta.

 

Visvanatha Cakravarti says in Madhurya-kadambini 2.6

 

 

 

 

 

 

tataś cāśrita-guru-caraṇasya tasya jijñāsyamāna-sad-ācārasya tac-chikṣayaiva

 

sajātīyāśaya-snigdha-bhakty-abhijña-sādhu-saṅga-bhāg-yodayaḥ.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"After attaining faith, one takes shelter of a guru and inquires about proper devotional behavior (sad-ācāra). Then, in accordance with the guru’s directions, one attains the fortune of associating with sadhus who are endowed with a similar mood, are affectionate and highly realized in devotional matters."

 

 

 

 

 

[theist]

 

And of course this isn't limited to my Guru parampara, I have to believe the mercy of the Lord transcends Gaudya Vaisnavism.

 

The Lord has blessed you with a broad and liberal vision of how He bestows His mercy brajehswara. May will all receive that same blessing.

[Guest guest]

<b>We should be respectful and grateful to our path-showing gurus (vartma pradarshaka gurus), even if it should happen that some spiritual misfortune befell on them.</b> <b>Bilmangala Thakur </b>in his opening verse in <i>Sri Krisha Karnamrta </i>offered his grateful obeisances to his path showing Guru who was a prostitute by the name of Chintamani.

 

<b>Srila Jiva Goswami </b>, in his <i>Bhakti Sandharba </i> <b>gave 3 circumstances under which one's initiating Guru should be honored from a distance</b>:

 

-one who speaks which is contrary to the teachings enunciated in the vaishnava literature.

 

- one who is an enemy of Vaishnavas -- one kills, calumniates, hates, does not welcome, becomes angry with, and is not happy to see a Vaishnava these are the six falls (into hell).

 

- one who is arrogant, one who does not know what should be done, and what should not be done and who is following the wrong path

 

 

The above are taken from the bok <i>The Life and Teachings of Krishna Das Baba of Radhakunda</i> by Karunamayi Das

[theist]

 

Srila Syamananda Goswami who lived in the early seventeeth century had about 250,000 inititated disciples. He used to give ritvik initiation through his directly initiated disciples.

 

Interesting. I never heard that before

[theist]

Certainly one should still respect a fallen teacher. There is no living being we should not respect because Krsna is there and that being is part of Krsna.

 

Beyond that there is his past help to the student in advancing in God consciousness. That cannot be wiped out by a fall down. So there must also be gratitude for that.

 

BUT one should not continue to view a fallen soul as one's Guru. That would be madness. One should seek someone else to hear from and that person must be solidly on the devotional path.

 

Who we hear from that is our guru so do not even hear from such a person.

 

"Hearing" is not used in referrence to talking to and listening to his ideas and thoughts. But hearing in the sense of it being the means of receiving transcendental knowledge.

[theist]

 

 

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by theist

Caitya guru never falls down. Don't place your faith in or give your heart to anyone that Caitya guru has not confirmed to you that that person is His external manifestation and representative on earth.

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This is not Gaudiya Vaishnava Siddhanta.

 

Visvanatha Cakravarti says in Madhurya-kadambini 2.6

 

 

 

 

 

 

tataś cāśrita-guru-caraṇasya tasya jijñāsyamāna-sad-ācārasya tac-chikṣayaiva

 

sajātīyāśaya-snigdha-bhakty-abhijña-sādhu-saṅga-bhāg-yodayaḥ.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"After attaining faith, one takes shelter of a guru and inquires about proper devotional behavior (sad-ācāra). Then, in accordance with the guru’s directions, one attains the fortune of associating with sadhus who are endowed with a similar mood, are affectionate and highly realized in devotional matters.

 

 

"Not GV siddhanta."

 

Oh really? Are you sure anadi?

 

It is exactly GV siddhanta.

 

"After attaining faith, one takes shelter of a guru..."

Now where did that faith come from? It came from Krsna in the heart (Caitya-guru) just like he says in the Gita, "I make his faith steady so that he may worship..."

Same exact principle.

By the grace of KRSNA one gets guru and by the grace of guru one gets Krsna.

It is not GV siddhanta to ignore Krsna as ones source for his newly budding faith.

[Guest guest]

Theist

 

My Clarification:

 

Srila Jiva Goswami , in his Bhakti Sandharba gave 3 circumstances under which one's initiating Guru should be honored from a distance or <b>abandoned </b>

 

Radhe Radhe

 

Humble 2

[anadi]

Dear theist Dandavat pranam,

 

you commented Visvanatha Cakravarti's verse 2.6 from Madhurya-kadambini:

 

 

<?xml:namespace prefix = o />

 

 

 

 

"After attaining faith, one takes shelter of a guru and inquires about proper devotional behavior (sad-ācāra). Then, in accordance with the guru’s directions, one attains the fortune of associating with sadhus who are endowed with a similar mood, are affectionate and highly realized in devotional matters."

 

 

 

 

and said

 

 

Now where did that faith come from?

It came from Krsna in the heart (Caitya-guru) just like he says in the Gita,

"I make his faith steady so that he may worship..."

but

The evidence you presented for Caitya-guru as the giver of transcendental faith – shraddha is not quite proper:

yo yo yāḿyāḿ tanuḿ bhaktaḥ śraddhayārcitum icchati |

tasya tasyācalāḿ śraddhāḿ tāmeva vidadhāmy aham || (BG.7.21)

Whatever devotee with faith (bhaktaḥ śraddhaya) in some demigod desires to worship him, I surely make his faith steady (acalāḿ śraddhāḿ ).

This verse doesn’t say that Krishna is the direct giver of the faith. From this verse one can see that previously there was a desire of the bhakta,

and a faith which the bhakta had independently from <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comKrishna</st1:place> is the direct giver of the faith.

<font color=" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s desire.

<st1:place w:st="on"><FONT color=black>Krishna</st1:place><FONT color=black> only helps the devotee making his faith stronger, which is something else.

<FONT color=black><FONT color=black><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=black><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT color=#222222><FONT face=Verdana><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#222222><FONT face=Verdana>Now, where the transcendental faith come from?

<FONT face=Arial>

<FONT face=Arial><FONT color=seagreen><FONT face=Verdana>bhaktis tu bhagavad bhakta saGgena parijAyate |

<FONT face=Arial><FONT color=seagreen><FONT face=Verdana>sat-saGga prApyate pumbhiH sukRtaiH pUrva saJcite ||<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana><FONT face=Verdana> (Brihan Naradia Purana 4.33)

 

The inclination for devine devotion is awakened by the association with the devottes of the Lord

And the association with the pure devotees (SAT SANGA)

<FONT face=Arial><FONT face=Verdana>can be attained by the accumulated effect of SUKRITI (eternal pious activities) performed over uncountable life times. <FONT color=black>

 

<FONT color=black>The meaning is that the desires appear due to one’s association.

<FONT color=black>And every one gets the association one deserves,

<FONT color=black>i.e. as a reaction of one’s previous deeds, and <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is not responsible for our deeds.

[Guest guest]

Quote:

Srila Syamananda Goswami who lived in the early seventeeth century had about 250,000 inititated disciples. He used to give ritvik initiation through his directly initiated disciples.

 

Interesting. I never heard that before

 

It is in the biography of Syamananda's successor Rasikanananda.

 

He initiated disciples, and they went to the next village and initiated disciples, and they went to the next village...

 

5 generations of disciples were initiating while Syamananda was still living in this world. They are the Syamananda Parivara. Not specifically using the "ritvik" word however, but in practical terms everyone was a disciple of their living guru Syamananda.

[Guest guest]

I agree with Anadi pr here. Krishna's instruction to everyone is to surrender to Him alone. Why then would He give someone faith to worship a demi god? It is only logical that the person developed his faith independently of Krsna and He simply strengthens it.

 

 

Dear theist Dandavat pranam,

 

you commented Visvanatha Cakravarti's verse 2.6 from Madhurya-kadambini:

 

 

<?xml:namespace prefix = o />

 

 

 

 

"After attaining faith, one takes shelter of a guru and inquires about proper devotional behavior (sad-ācāra). Then, in accordance with the guru’s directions, one attains the fortune of associating with sadhus who are endowed with a similar mood, are affectionate and highly realized in devotional matters."

 

 

 

 

and said

 

 

Now where did that faith come from?

It came from Krsna in the heart (Caitya-guru) just like he says in the Gita,

"I make his faith steady so that he may worship..."

but

The evidence you presented for Caitya-guru as the giver of transcendental faith – shraddha is not quite proper:

yo yo yāḿyāḿ tanuḿ bhaktaḥ śraddhayārcitum icchati |

tasya tasyācalāḿ śraddhāḿ tāmeva vidadhāmy aham || (BG.7.21)

Whatever devotee with faith (bhaktaḥ śraddhaya) in some demigod desires to worship him, I surely make his faith steady (acalāḿ śraddhāḿ ).

This verse doesn’t say that Krishna is the direct giver of the faith. From this verse one can see that previously there was a desire of the bhakta,

and a faith which the bhakta had independently from <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comKrishna</st1:place> is the direct giver of the faith.

<font color=" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s desire.

<st1:place w:st="on"><FONT color=black>Krishna</st1:place><FONT color=black> only helps the devotee making his faith stronger, which is something else.

<FONT color=black><FONT color=black><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=black><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT color=#222222><FONT face=Verdana><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#222222><FONT face=Verdana>Now, where the transcendental faith come from?

<FONT face=Arial>

<FONT face=Arial><FONT color=seagreen><FONT face=Verdana>bhaktis tu bhagavad bhakta saGgena parijAyate |

<FONT face=Arial><FONT color=seagreen><FONT face=Verdana>sat-saGga prApyate pumbhiH sukRtaiH pUrva saJcite ||<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana><FONT face=Verdana> (Brihan Naradia Purana 4.33)

 

The inclination for devine devotion is awakened by the association with the devottes of the Lord

And the association with the pure devotees (SAT SANGA)

<FONT face=Arial><FONT face=Verdana>can be attained by the accumulated effect of SUKRITI (eternal pious activities) performed over uncountable life times. <FONT color=black>

 

<FONT color=black>The meaning is that the desires appear due to one’s association.

<FONT color=black>And every one gets the association one deserves,

<FONT color=black>i.e. as a reaction of one’s previous deeds, and <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is not responsible for our deeds.

[theist]

 

Theist

 

My Clarification:

 

Srila Jiva Goswami , in his Bhakti Sandharba gave 3 circumstances under which one's initiating Guru should be honored from a distance or abandoned

 

Radhe Radhe

 

Humble 2

 

Humble 2,

 

Yes. Keep a distance, abandon. I would add that we must do this while remaining free from hatred and resentments which if allowed to fester in the emotions and pysche of the disappointed student while preventing him from hearing properly the teachings of any new found guru.

 

We posted at the same time last night and I missed reading your post until now. I remember reading that quote from Jiva Gosvami in the past, I think in one of Srila Prabhupada's purports to CC... maybe.

 

Anyway thank you for providing the substance of positon that those referrences provide. Kinda cool to me that we were on the same wave length at the same time in the same place even though our bodies may be far distant. I am in the great state of Californicate.

[theist]

 

Dear theist Dandavat pranam,

 

you commented Visvanatha Cakravarti's verse 2.6 from Madhurya-kadambini:

 

 

 

 

 

"After attaining faith, one takes shelter of a guru and inquires about proper devotional behavior (sad-ācāra). Then, in accordance with the guru’s directions, one attains the fortune of associating with sadhus who are endowed with a similar mood, are affectionate and highly realized in devotional matters."

 

 

 

and said

 

Now where did that faith come from?

It came from Krsna in the heart (Caitya-guru) just like he says in the Gita,

"I make his faith steady so that he may worship..."

but

The evidence you presented for Caitya-guru as the giver of transcendental faith – shraddha is not quite proper:

yo yo yāḿyāḿ tanuḿ bhaktaḥ śraddhayārcitum icchati |

tasya tasyācalāḿ śraddhāḿ tāmeva vidadhāmy aham || (BG.7.21)

 

Hare Krsna anadi ji,

Yes I know He was speaking there about worship of demigods. Therefore I said in the next line that it is the "same principle" that is at work.

 

 

I don't believe it was a faith born independent of Krsna. I don't believe in the notion of independence from Krsna on any level.. This does not overide freewill which I also believe in.

 

For one to have faith in any object outside of himself he must have obtained knowledge of outside of himself. His having access to that knowledge of things outside himself is fully under the control of Krsna.

</st1:place>

 

That transcendental faith is made possible by Krsna in the first place by His even establishing a transcendental realm and in giving us some awareness of it's existence. Otherwise how could we know transcendental faith if we had no knowledge of transcendence in the first place. From the material side he gave the veda to Brahma to disseminate. He also advented Himself in Vishnu-tattva incarnations and empwered incarnations to spread the awareness of the transcendental realm. We can only think. ponder and speak of the possibility of such a transcendental realm by the grace of Krsna and that is prior to any development of faith.

As I see it Krsna's grace (in whatever form it comes) always precedes the awakening of faith, material or transcendental. And again without overiding the freewill of the jiva.

No problem. But how did the devotee come to even find the association of devotees in the first place. Obviously by the arrangement of Caitya-guru.

From this I take it you have the impression that I think Krsna overrides the free will of the jiva. I do not think that way.

I am simply trying to repeat the message found in this sutra. "By the grace of KRSNA one gets guru and by the grace of guru one gets Krsna."

To ignore krsna in this saying and to ignore the order in which grace is received is a mistake IMO.

pranams anadi.

[brajeshwara das]

 

The Lord has blessed you with a broad and liberal vision of how He bestows His mercy brajehswara. May will all receive that same blessing.

I'm humbled by your kind words Prabhu. It is the mercy of Srila Govinda Maharaj who has told us 'don't think I'm the only Guru' when maybe some disciples were feeling a little puffed-up and full of party spirit. Srila Sridhar Maharaj and Govinda Maharaj give honor to Christians liberally, of course without being unchaste to our line, but they pay thier respects and acknowledge wherever they see Guru. Like was mentioned before, how many disciples can a Guru take? So even if one Guru can take a million disciples, that isn't even a drop of the jivas crying out for mercy in this material world. Maybe some can't hear from the Vaisnavas, so Christ is there to help them and so on. Dayal Nitai, may all receive His mercy.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna

 

 

Theist , you have a very big and beautiful bud of love for Krishna there in your heart which by the grace of sadhu sanga can make that blossom beautifully.

 

Go out of the kitchen and find some sadhu sanga !

 

 

Radhe Radhe !