when is guru to be rejected?

[anadi]

 

Hare Krsna

Dear Anadi, (you said)

"Well, this definition of karma is not accurate, and may be quite confusing. "

(reply)

...It is an incomplete definition but that is different, and wherever you got that quote from, ...

 

Dear Devarsi dandavat pranam,

 

...when it is incomplete, ...it is inacurate.

 

and ...people from some organizations use to quote the words of some personalities as "the last word" or "the absolute truth", like the mottos : "Prabhupada said", "Guru Y said" which is improper, as in the example under discussion.

Please see:

http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/spiritual-discussions/435055-perfection-life.html

 

Please take also into consideration the inacurate translations of the verses quoted by qHari, which can be used as false evidence.

[Guest guest]

Anadi if U are listening to Madhavananda and other disciples of Ananta das baba then that is your choice but many people here do not appreciate the bogus philosophy that Ananta das baba teaches.

 

If U want to pick a few quotes of Srila Prabhupada to find fault with then what are you trying to say? Do you want people to give up Prabhupada and start believing in Ananta das babaji?

 

You can criticize Srila Prabhupada if you like because nobody can stop you from using your freedom of speech. But your arguments against Prabhupada are very weak. And why do you want to do this? Do you think you are going to enlighten people with the BRIGHT and WONDERFUL philosophy of Ananta das baba?

 

The truth is, Ananta das baba is old news for many devotees here. Devotees already know what Ananta das baba has to say and devotees are not interested in his ideas that are against the teachings of great sages such as Thakura Bhaktivinoda.

[brajeshwara das]

I personally have never heard of Ananta Das Babaji Maharaja, probably showing how sheltered I am, but I think anadi is being sincere in his comments here, and had not mentioned anyone as an alternative to anyone else.

 

Regarding 'karmis' as mentioned by anadi, in Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math I also have been told not to call western pleasure seeking workers 'karmis' because 'karmi' is actually a higher thing that should be respected as mentioned. Only thing is who is really a 'karmi' in Kali Yuga? Varnashrama is in shambles and all are pleasure-seekers. But I really think we shouldn't throw the term around as a slur at people we see as materialistic.

 

I'm chaste to my Gurudeva, that won't change from anything anyone says here or who thier guru or inspiration may be, and I think as long as the discussion is respectful then why bring up some mention of sepparate agendas? The Truth should be the only agenda.

 

I don't think that " ...when it is incomplete, ...it is inacurate" is a realistic assumption. One sloka of the Bhagavad Gita standing alone may appear incomplete, but is it inaccurate? I don't believe so. Depending on the listener's capacity the Guru may limit the discussion. My Gurudeva will not talk about the intimate pastimes of Sri Radha and Krishna with me because I'm obviously not qualified, for example. Does that make anything he says about the pastimes in Vrindavan inaccurate? What nonsense! Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupada is not beyond some critical study before you accept His interpretation, but I think the justification used by anadi is bogus and limited in understanding of Guru and how He is revealed to each jiva.

[Beggar]

Here's a classic "Prabhupada said": Guru Krpa to Srila Prabhupada, “Oh Prabhupada, the karmis are in so much maya.”

Srila Prabhupada: “Never mind the karmis, you are in maya.”

[brajeshwara das]

Yes, (quote from memory) Devotee said: "I am the most fallen" Prabhupada said: "You aren't the most anything."

[gHari]

Only forgetfulness of unlimited sins committed over eons and eons since time immemorial could make someone think himself worthy of Krsna's mercy - that Krsna is BOUND to do anything. If there is no such thing as mercy (it is Krsna's duty) - then why bother with the word Krpa?

 

Humility is not a Gaudiya concoction - it is our reality. I'm afraid I cannot buy into your stairway to heaven. It is not even logical.

[theist]

 

Dear qHari, dandavat pranam,

you asked:

How does Krsna then show His mercy this way (Madhya 22.47) to someone who will never meet a guru?

 

There is no never. There's always a chance.

 

Chance. I don't believe in chance myself, I believe in Krsna the Supreme Controller.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

The productive consideration of how to apply the term Karmi properly is one thing.

 

Why beat around the bush? It is just plain unreasonable to say that a word which has many levels of meaning is inaccurately if the speaker does not go on to speak of all the definitions and ramifications of the words usage every time they use it wanting to refer to one shade or another of the total definition.

 

On one level Karma means fruitive work. It is a complete and accurate statement to convey the point to the one or more people who were actually listening submissively at that time. Perhaps out of a whole group, there were 1 or 2 aurally receptive, and they needed to simply equate their fruitive working with Karma.

 

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada preached to a whole range of persons, from the most intellectually astute to the most destitute of mental ability.

 

Please try and understand this simple thing.

 

Hare Krsna

[gHari]

The following is a precious excerpt from Srila Sridhara Maharaja's "Follow the Angels":

 

Mahaprabhu says that to give this and that to God is self-deception.

Give love, love of Krsna, prema. That is anything and everything; that

is all in all. Instead of spending money, giving our physical force, all

these things, love is the real essence of any existence. Offer that to the

Lord. Through that, come to the plane of love, the plane of love that

Krsna has created around Him.

 

God takes the form of Krsna in the plane of love, and that is the most

fundamental and most subtle plane. It is behind all this apparent

creation of different nature. Come to that plane. Try to penetrate into

that plane, where God is Krsna and the paraphernalia is Vrndavana.

Try to have admission there in that plane. The happiest form of life we

will find there. Mercy is more beautiful than justice. We cannot blame

justice. Justice is justice. We cannot think of blaming the spirit of

justice. How can we blame that?

 

Here, there is mercy over justice. We cannot deny that. Who can

extend mercy over justice? He must have such power that He can

compensate the demands of justice. He has the power of

compensation; therefore, He can give mercy. Such an aspect of the

Lord comes through love and affection. We want to live there.

The Emperor is Love

 

Love is above everything. Love is the only wealth in this world.

Dharma, artha, kama, moksa. Dharma is duty, our service to society

and the environment, without any remuneration. It is like depositing

something in the bank, accumulating for later use, perhaps in the

afterlife. We deposit in the bank, then use it all for sense pleasure.

Nothing else. Artha is wealth, which can make sense pleasure

possible, and allow us to distribute it to others. In the lowest sense

kama, sense experience, is the wealth that everyone is running after;

kama, sense pleasure.

 

Dharma, artha, kama, and the fourth is moksa. We know that this

wealth is not real wealth; it is only fascination. It is only progress in

the wrong way. So we must try our utmost to get out of this game. We

are playing in the hand of Maya, who is fascinating us with these

lower things, all this sense pleasure in different forms. We must get

out; that is moksa, liberation.

 

The power infinite and love infinite, attracting love, self-surrender,

that is the highest expression of the Infinite. And that is Radha-Krsna,

the all-attractive Couple; in the words of our Guru Maharaja, the

predominating and predominated moieties. Positive and negative,

They may be called. Attraction is the most fundamental element

everywhere. All else can be eliminated, ignored, and forgotten, if we

come in contact with attraction, love. Everything can be ignored if we

are in connection with love.

 

The fulfillment of our existence, all the existence, everything is love.

Love is the principle in the center; it is the only fulfillment of

everything, every existence. The very gist of existence is there; it can't

be ignored or challenged by any other form or aspect of our

substantial existence. Unchallenged and absolute, the king, the

absolute, the emperor is love. None can stand in comparison with that.

All will have to accept defeat coming in opposition with the principle

of love.

 

Mahaprabhu pointed out that this is the most substantial thing in this

world. Whatever we see and find and experience and come in

connection with, love is the most central necessity and fulfillment.

Srimad Bhagavatam extracts the essence from the whole of the

revealed scriptures and says that the most desirable and original thing

is love divine. We must not allow ourselves to run hither and thither

searching for a base fulfillment. Forcibly focusing our attention, we

must concentrate in this direction. This is the highest substance in the

creation, meant for us throughout eternity.

[brajeshwara das]

Guru Maharaj ki jaya!

[theist]

Prabhupada's use of the word karmi was always understood to be used in a generous way.

 

A devotee is empowered by Lord Nityanada to spread the Holy name around this fallen less then human world and which he does at an advanced age and at great sacrifice to himself and still some want to criticize even if they have to resort to nit-picking over some insignificent word usage.

 

Sheesh

[brajeshwara das]

 

Prabhupada's use of the word karmi was always understood to be used in a generous way.

 

A devotee is empowered by Lord Nityanada to spread the Holy name around this fallen less then human world and which he does at an advanced age and at great sacrifice to himself and still some want to criticize even if they have to resort to nit-picking over some insignificent word usage.

 

Sheesh

I meant no disrespect to Srila Prabhupada. I was just referring to what I had seen used in a improper way, not referring to anything Srila Prabhupada had ever said or written at all. Sorry if it seemed otherwise.

 

Edit: Incidentally, I heard this at my Math's ashrams, since I have almost no exposure to ISKCON.

[theist]

Prabhu, I wasn't thinking of you when I wrote the last post.

 

There is no harm in understanding the different types of fruitive work. That is unless we lose sight of transcendence along the way. Otherwise I think devotees that are intelligent should analyse such things as the different ways the modes of nature manifest etc. I am not so good at that type of study myself but I am glad there are devotees who are. Scholarly devotees who keep their eye on Krsna while engaged in scrutinizing study develop strong minds and offer a protective shield to guard against attacks by those envious of Lord Caitanya and who would undermine devotees faith if they could. Good for preaching. That is just one more distinction between the Krsna Consciousness movement and all these other sentimental New Agey groups. We have strong philosophy.

[anadi]

Dear qHari, Dandavat pranam,

You said:

Only forgetfulness of unlimited sins committed over eons and eons since time immemorial could make someone think himself worthy of Krsna's mercy - that Krsna is BOUND to do anything…

But

The fact that Krishna is bound to respect His word, when He says that He rewards everyone accordingly,

it doesn’t mean one should “think himself worthy of Krsna's mercy" You should not jump to false conclusions.

 

Krishna likes of being bound...by love.

[anadi]

Dear brajeshwara, Dandavat pranam

You said:

I don't think that " ...when it is incomplete, ...it is innacurate" is a realistic assumption.

One sloka of the Bhagavad Gita standing alone may appear incomplete, but is it inaccurate?

Now,

It is important to know what the incompleteness and inaccuracy were referring to.

If someone gives a definition of ... saying karma, which is incomplete, than that definition is certainly inaccurate.

Similarly, let’s say one gives a definition from Bhagavad-gita which entails more slokas, but he uses only one shloka, than the definition given is incomplete and … as such inaccurate.

Under discussion was a definition not a sloka.

An incomplete definition is not accurate.

[anadi]

qHari asked:

How does Krsna then show His mercy this way (Madhya 22.47) to someone who will never meet a guru?

my reply:

There is no never. There's always a chance.

Most dear Theist, dandavat pranam,

you said

Chance. I don't believe in chance myself, I believe in Krsna the Supreme Controller.

 

but

Jiva has her own iccha shakti – desiring power, and her own shatantra shakti – independence power. So, what is the meaning of chance in this conection?

Say a person likes adventures, and for him India is a challange.

He does not go to India in search of spirituality.

But during the trip he may see sadhus and temples of the Lord, and smell the incence offered to the deities, and bathe in the Gage...

This is by chance, not by his will, or because Krishna controlls him.

How does Krishna see this? As small declarations of love, and He will reciprocate with similar small presents of love. And these will increase life after life. Krishna gives assurance that it is like this in the shastra.

[brajeshwara das]

It's not chance, but the will of the jiva that he was in that place at that time. It's by the will of the Lord that he sees the sadhus, temples, smells the incense, and bathes in the Ganges.

[brajeshwara das]

 

Now,

It is important to know what the incompleteness and inaccuracy were referring to.

I still don't think your criticisms of Srila Prabhupada are valid, because you ignore the context where something may not be fully explained because of the limitations of the audience.

[brajeshwara das]

Theist: thanks for clarifying.

 

anadi: If Srila Prabhupada had only given the explanation of karma you have issue with, then ok, incomplete would be inaccurate. But that isn't the case. If you take the one purport out of context with the whole of Srila Prabhupada's teachings and say because it isn't complete it is inaccurate, who could say that is fair? This could be done with any commentary from anyone.

[anadi]

Dear brajeshwar, dandavat pranam,

You said:

It's not chance, but the will of the jiva that he was in that place at that time.

But

The will of the jiva, that he was in that place at that time, was the chance to see the sadhus, temples, smell the incense, and bathe in the Ganges

 

You also said:

<FONT color=red>It's by the will of the Lord that he sees the sadhus, temples, smells the incense, and bathes in the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comGanges</st1:place>.

you also said:

<font color=" /><st1:place w:st="on">Ganges</st1:place>.

<FONT color=black>But that would mean that the Lord would favor one and another not.

<FONT face=Arial><FONT color=black>Sri Krishna says in Bhagavad-gita 9.29 that He behaves equaly to everyone <FONT color=#2e8b57>samo '<FONT face=Tahoma>haḿ <FONT face=Tahoma>sarva-<FONT face=Tahoma>bhūteṣu <FONT color=black>up to the point where one starts to worship Him.

<FONT face=Arial><FONT color=seagreen>samo '<FONT face=Tahoma>haḿ <FONT face=Tahoma>sarva-<FONT face=Tahoma>bhūteṣu <FONT face=Tahoma>na me dveṣyo 'sti <FONT face=Tahoma>na <FONT face=Tahoma>priyaḥ |

<FONT face=Arial><FONT color=seagreen><FONT face=Tahoma>ye <FONT face=Tahoma>bhajanti <FONT face=Tahoma>tu <FONT face=Tahoma>māḿ <FONT face=Tahoma>bhaktyā <FONT face=Tahoma>mayi <FONT face=Tahoma>te <FONT face=Tahoma>teṣu cāpy <FONT face=Tahoma>aham ||

[anadi]

 

I still don't think your criticisms of Srila Prabhupada are valid, because you ignore the context where something may not be fully explained because of the limitations of the audience.

 

Dear brajeshwara, dandavat pranam,

 

dervarji asked this question:

If someone is claiming that one of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami's purports does not stand the proof against revealed writings, that charge ought to be backed up with some principle example.

 

 

That example with Karma came up by chance in a discussion with CBrahma, where he used a statement of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami as the absolute evidence.

Many people use to think that whatever he wrote is the absolute truth,

but many thigs were circumstancial, as you also admit.

 

You can see the whole context under:

 

http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/spiritual-discussions/435055-perfection-life.html

 

[raga]

 

Anadi if U are listening to Madhavananda and other disciples of Ananta das baba then that is your choice but many people here do not appreciate the bogus philosophy that Ananta das baba teaches.

Nothing in this thread has had much to do with any teaching particularly specific to Ananta Das Babaji Maharaja. Then, this diatribe is a meaningless attempt at maligning the character of a poster through aligning him with a perceived heretic party.

 

I don't care how much people want to fight in forums about whatever it is they fight about, but please don't malign sincere Vaisnavas such as Ananta Das Babaji Maharaja just because they have some differences in view with your own teachers. He is not out on a campaign to write bad commentaries of the views of your teachers, and as such doesn't deserve comments like this.

[raga]

 

Theist: thanks for clarifying.

 

anadi: If Srila Prabhupada had only given the explanation of karma you have issue with, then ok, incomplete would be inaccurate. But that isn't the case. If you take the one purport out of context with the whole of Srila Prabhupada's teachings and say because it isn't complete it is inaccurate, who could say that is fair? This could be done with any commentary from anyone.

I can't stand bad logic. To say that something is inaccurate because it's incomplete is essentially to state that everything verbally expressed is inaccurate, because no verbal expression can ever penetrate each detail of an object of analysis.

 

"The sun is shining." This is an incomplete description of the sun.

 

"The sun is hot." This is an incomplete statement.

 

"The sun is shining on the sky and creating warmth." This is also incomplete.

 

Are any of these statements inaccurate? No, they are all accurate, albeit partial descriptions of the sun. As such, incompleteness does not in itself indicate inaccuracy. An incomplete statement attains by default the quality of inaccuracy only when a claim of completeness is superimposed.

[theist]

raga, are you sure you are hearing brajeshwara correctly? I reread his post and it seems to me he is saying exactly what you are saying.

[brajeshwara das]

 

Dear brajeshwara, dandavat pranam,

 

dervarji asked this question:

If someone is claiming that one of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami's purports does not stand the proof against revealed writings, that charge ought to be backed up with some principle example.

 

 

That example with Karma came up by chance in a discussion with CBrahma, where he used a statement of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami as the absolute evidence.

Many people use to think that whatever he wrote is the absolute truth,

but many thigs were circumstancial, as you also admit.

 

You can see the whole context under:

 

http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/spiritual-discussions/435055-perfection-life.html

 

 

I'm not going to play semantic games here. I'm not 'admitting' that he changes the truth depending on the circumstances. I'm saying just because he doesn't say 10,000 slokas in one sitting or quote the entire Mahabharat in a purport doesn't mean that he in any way, shape or form is inaccurate.