when is guru to be rejected?

[Guest guest]

Vaidusa Pratyaksa is the name used by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura for "revelation" which appears in the heart of sages. The revelation gets spoken and becomes the Veda. The direct perception (pratyaksa) of the Truth is the ultimate and most important type of pramana. That is why the sages all asked Sukadev to speak in the assembly of King Pariksit on the shore of the Ganges. Sukadev had direct perception of the Absolute and what he says is not based on "hearsay" but on direct experience of Reality.

[anadi]

Dear theist Dandavat pranam

You said

And what is the source of the sastra if not the authorized representatives of Krsna? Did those books write themselves? What we call sastra is nothing but the penned realizations of realized souls.

Dear theist

It seems quite logical, but the source of the sastra is Krishna Himself. This Knowledge flows through the chain of disciplic succession, but it is not the source of the shastra.

 

Erläuterung

Many charismatic svamis write commentaries on revealed scriptures, and their followers pretend these svamis would be directly from the spiritual world and their commentaries too.

Are their commentaries really “revealed scriptures”? Are they from the spiritual world?

Take for example Bhaktivedanta Svami and see… whose commentaries he used for “his own” commentaries in the translation he did.

His commentaries, his letters, are not his revelation, they must stand the proof against shastra.

What to say about your commentaries to his commentaries.

Or "my" commentaries...

They must stand the proof against revealed writings.

[anadi]

 

Just curious anadi, are you a disciple of sri ananta panditji?

 

Ja-in (Ja + Nein). I am like a disciple of his disciples. I study the commentaries of Ananta Das babaji, on different books of the Gosvamis of Vraja.

I haven't got yet any formal initiation in a traditional gaudiya sampradaya.

 

Now I think, I would like first to live with my guru over a long period of time, to see if we can accept eachother in the relation guru-disciple.

 

Some people do not need it. Now, I think I do.

[theist]

 

Dear theist

It seems quite logical, but the source of the sastra is Krishna Himself. This Knowledge flows through the chain of disciplic succession, but it is not the source of the shastra.

 

Well of course, Krsna is the source of everything. That was not the context in which we were discussing though anadi. We were speaking of between the realized soul and books of sastra which came first. But either way the point remains the books have a personal source so how can we subsequentially place self realized souls beneath the books of wisdom and then hold suspect anything more they have to say on the subject of Krsna consciousness?

 

We can and should weigh new information carefully with consideration to past teaching but not to the point of stifling progressive realizations.

 

If we did that we would all be hearing from strict Vedantists instead of Bhaktivedantists.

 

Words of the past sages are meant to propel us forward in spiritual life and not to hold us back from futher growth.

[anadi]

 

Well of course, Krsna is the source of everything. That was not the context in which we were discussing though anadi. We were speaking of between the realized soul and books of sastra which came first.

 

Dear theist dandavat pranam,

the revealed books are not "books" but eternal personalities. And they are first.

 

also the context was/is that:

Many charismatic svamis write commentaries on revealed scriptures, and their followers pretend these svamis would be directly from the spiritual world and their commentaries too.

Are their commentaries really “revealed scriptures”? Are they from the spiritual world?

Take for example Bhaktivedanta Svami and see… whose commentaries he used for “his own” commentaries in the translation he did.

His commentaries, his letters, are not his "revelation", they must stand the proof against shastra.

What to say about your commentaries to his commentaries.

Or "my" commentaries...

They must stand the proof against revealed writings.

[theist]

 

Dear theist dandavat pranam,

the revealed books are not "books" but eternal personalities. And they are first.

 

Whatever you like to think prabhu. The books giving rise to the personalities who wrote them does not seem reasonable to me.

 

We have the example of the personidied Vedas. but if you think the Vedas are some impersonal energy that gave rise to the personalities of the vedas then I am forced to see that on the level of the Brahman giving rise to Krsna. I am quite sure that does not fit well in GV siddhanta.

 

So just another point we will agree to disagree on.

[Beggar]

What came first? The chicken or the egg? (And it's OK to use this analogy as long as you don't eat them). What comes first: winter, spring, summer or fall? (I know, I know, "...all you have do is just call"). Anyway you get the drift. Bhakta PPPAAALLLeeeeaaaassse!

[brajeshwara das]

Aren't shastra like Dieties, in that they manifest themselves? We may think someone took some wood, carved it, painted it etc. but the Lord was already there before the Dieties manifest. Krsna Lila is eternally present, so aren't shastra just the manifestation of the already present truth? We should treat the 'books' as non-different than the truth they describe, and the words of a bona-fide Guru are also scripture to me, so they are coming from the eternal realm.

 

Sorry if I don't make any sense, this body/mind doesn't feel well today.

[theist]

No you make perfect sense. And that eternal realm is personal. I also see the divine truth as it manifests as verse as personal. I accept the Absolute truth present in Srimad bhagavatam as the literary incarnation of God , so therefore it is personal. When krsna is described dancing with the gopis I accept that it is happening right before my ears in real time with Krsna personally present.

 

But even before Krsna manifested in the SB He was dancing with the gopis, and if He didn't manifest in SB He would still be dancing with the gopis.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

Anadi wrote

 

"They must stand the proof against revealed writings"

 

If someone is claiming that one of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami's purports does not stand the proof against revealed writings, that charge ought to be backed up with some principle example.

 

After all this is a spiritual discussion , innuendo or unsubstantiated allegation are both counter to our goals here.

 

Hare Krsna

[Shakti-Fan]

 

Anadi wrote

 

"They must stand the proof against revealed writings"

 

If someone is claiming that one of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami's purports does not stand the proof against revealed writings, that charge ought to be backed up with some principle example.

 

After all this is a spiritual discussion , innuendo or unsubstantiated allegation are both counter to our goals here.

 

Hare Krsna

 

I don't see that Anadi was alledging that, "one of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami's purports does not stand the proof against revealed writings". If you follow the flow he seemed to be saying that every thing a sadhu or guru says must have a sastric basis. Anadi said previously, "As long as "theist's quoting Srila Prabhupada" is followed by wrong interpretations which he sustains by improper evidence from smriti, I can hardly accept them as the ultimate conclusion." He's saying that he considers Theist's "wrong interpretations" to be the problem.

[theist]

The specific quote he objected to was "By the grace of krsna one gets guru and by the grace of guru one gets Krsna".

 

Apparently the thinking is we cannot be sure Srila Prabhupada was speaking according to GV siddhanta when he said that and anyone who quotes Srila Prabhupada must be able to show it's roots in the old books for it to be valid.

 

To me the quote is self-effulgent. To each his own.

[gHari]

CC Madhya 19.151<BLOCKQUOTE><CENTER><FONT COLOR=RED>brahmANDa bhramite kona bhAgyavAn jIva

guru-kRSNa-prasAde pAya bhakti-latA-bIja

</CENTER>

brahmANDa bhramite--wandering in this universe; kona--some; bhAgyavAn--most fortunate; jIva--living being; guru--of the spiritual master; kRSNa--of KRSNa; prasAde--by the mercy; pAya--gets; bhakti-latA--of the creeper of devotional service; bIja--the seed.

<B></FONT>

"According to their karma, all living entities are wandering throughout the entire universe. Some of them are being elevated to the upper planetary systems, and some are going down into the lower planetary systems. Out of many millions of wandering living entities, one who is very fortunate gets an opportunity to associate with a bona fide spiritual master by the grace of KRSNa. By the mercy of both KRSNa and the spiritual master, such a person receives the seed of the creeper of devotional service.</b>

[theist]

Resolved.

[gHari]

CC Madhya 22.47

 

<center>

kRSNa yadi kRpA kare kona bhAgyavAne

guru-antaryAmi-rUpe zikhAya Apane

</center>

kRSNa--Lord KRSNa; yadi--if; kRpA kare--shows His mercy; kona bhAgyavAne--to some fortunate person; guru--of the spiritual master; antaryAmi--of the Supersoul; rUpe--in the form; zikhAya--teaches; Apane--personally.

"KRSNa is situated in everyone's heart as the caitya-guru, the spiritual master within. When He is kind to some fortunate conditioned soul, He personally gives him lessons so he can progress in devotional service, instructing the person as the Supersoul within and the spiritual master without.

 

http://vedabase.net/sb/6/16/50/en

[anadi]

Dear theist dandavat pranam

I said:

<TABLE class=MsoNormalTable style="WIDTH: 100%; mso-cellspacing: 0cm; mso-padding-alt: 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 0; mso-yfti-firstrow: yes; mso-yfti-lastrow: yes"><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 18pt; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 18pt; BACKGROUND: #e0e0e0; PADDING-BOTTOM: 4.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 4.5pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1pt solid; mso-border-alt: solid #666666 .75pt">Dear theist dandavat pranam,

the revealed books are not "books" but eternal personalities. And they are first.

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Your answer:

Whatever you like to think prabhu. The books giving rise to the personalities who wrote them does not seem reasonable to me.

But

I think you misunderstood, what I have said:

The different eternal transcendental personalities, which are personifications of the eternal transcendental knowledge are first, not the books written by a Rishi.

Elucidation:

Sabdha or the transcendental sound from the transcendental world is the source of knowledge, which in kali yuga takes the written form - shastra.

Some rishis according their qualification can here/see a more or just a particular shabdha related to a particular perfection of life.

 

[anadi]

Anadi wrote

"They must stand the proof against revealed writings"

 

Reply:

If someone is claiming that one of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami's purports does not stand the proof against revealed writings, that charge ought to be backed up with some principle example.

 

 

Dear bhakta Devarsi

 

Here it is a quote given for the elucidation of the meaning of karma, which says:

Prabhupada: Karma means fruitive work. Just like you are laboring for some wages. You get your wages. Similarly, this material world our work is rewarded. Good work is rewarded with good benefit and bad work is punished. This is the law of karma.

 

Answer:

Well, this definition of karma is not accurate, and may be quite confusing.

Bhagavan Sri Krishna says that there are three types of activities:

Karma, vikarma and akarma.

karmaṇo hy api boddhavyaḿ / boddhavyaḿ ca vikarmaṇaḥ

akarmaṇaś ca boddhavyaḿ / gahanā karmaṇo gatiḥ

(Bhagavat-gita 4.17)

Karma, vikarma and akarma should be distinctively understood, because the karmic principle is profound.

Any type of these activities bear fruits, or are fruitive,… but not all are karma.

So, to say only that “Karma means fruitive work ” is not entirely correct, because it doesn’t say anything about

1. the quality of the activity and

2. the quality of the fruit.

According to Sri Krishna, the quality of karma is that entails activities executed according varna-ashrama dharma:

cātur-varṇyaḿ mayā sṛṣṭaḿ / guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ

tasya kartāram api māḿ / viddhy akartāram avyayam

Bhagavat-gita 4.13

According to one's own qulities (guna) and the work (karma) associated with them, the four divisions of human society

are created by Me. And although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable.

and the quality of the fruit of karma is that pleases the Supreme Lord Hari, as stated in Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.13

ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā / varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ

svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya / saḿsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam

O best among the twice-born, one achieves the highest perfection (saMsiddhir) by discharging the duties prescribed for one's own occupation

according to social divisions (varNa) and religious orders of life (ashrama) thus pleasing (toSaNam) the Supreme Lord (Hari – the Well Wisher of His devotees)

In this connection Srila Rupa Gosvami talking about karmis says:

karmibhyaḥ parito hareḥ priyatayā vyaktiḿ yayur jñāninas

tebhyo jñāna-vimukta-bhakti-paramāḥ premaika-niṣṭhās tataḥ

tebhyas tāḥ paśu-pāla-pańkaja-dṛśas tābhyo 'pi sā rādhikā

preṣṭhā tadvad iyaḿ tadīya-sarasī tāḿ nāśrayet kaḥ kṛtī

More dear - priyatayā than the karims- karmibhya

to the Lord - hareḥ in all respects – parito

have attained – yayur distinction - vyaktiḿ the brahma jnanis – jñāninas.

So, as one can see, karmis are dear to Lord and this refers to the ones who follow varna-ashrama dharma, and in this way pleasing Him.

The other persons whose activities are vikarma or akarma cannot be classified as karmis.

Karma follows naimitk dharma - the duties according one's acquired material nature (not the eternal nature of the soul - nitya dharma),

karma refers to vedic ocupational duty according the social class (varna) and vedic spiritual order (ashram).

[anadi]

Dear qHari dandavat pranam,

you gave this quotation from CC Madhya 19.151

brahmANDa bhramite kona bhAgyavAn jIva

guru-kRSNa-prasAde pAya bhakti-latA-bIja

"... one who is very fortunate gets an opportunity to associate with a bona fide spiritual master by the grace of KRSNa. ..

 

But the verse does not say that.

Here it is an accurate translation:

 

Wandering bhramite through the universe brahmANDa some – kona most fortunate bhAgyavAn souls jIva by the grace prasAde

of the spiritual master and Krishna guru-kRSNa get pAya the seed – bIja of the flower of devotional service bhakti-latA

 

[anadi]

Dear theist dandavat pranam,

You said

The specific quote he (anadi) objected to was "By the grace of krsna one gets guru and by the grace of guru one gets Krsna".

Apparently the thinking is, we cannot be sure Srila Prabhupada was speaking according to GV Siddhanta.

Dear theist Dandavat pranam,

this is not quite accurate.

I will try to refresh your memory:

1. You said that in order to accept a guru, one should have the confirmation of caitya guru, and without His confirmation one should not accept any guru.

I said that this is not Gaudiya Siddhanta, and that according to Srila Vishvanatha Cakravarti

shraddha - faith is the prerequisite to accept a guru.

Accepting of guru has nothing to do with any confirmation of caitya guru as you put it “Don't place your faith in or give your heart to anyone that Caitya guru has not confirmed to you....”

2.Than you said:

Now where did that faith come from?

It came from Krsna in the heart (Caitya-guru) just like he says in the Gita,

"I make his faith steady so that he may worship..."

But the verse you quoted from bhagavad-gita 7.21 for Caitya-guru as the giver of transcendental faith – shraddha was not sustaining your allegation:

<u1></u1>"Whatever devotee with faith (bhaktaḥ śraddhaya) in some demigod desires to worship him, I surely make his faith steady (acalāḿ śraddhāḿ )."

<u1></u1>

From your replies it seems you didn’t want to acknowledge, the verse you quoted doesn’t support the "principle" you stated: faith comes from Krishna:

"By the grace of Krsna one gets guru, by the grace of guru one gets Krsna."

<o></o>A well known saying by Srila Prabhupada. Suo compact & concise in summarizing the whole essence of bhakti-yoga that I call it a sutra.

<o>

Your commentary to that “saying“ was also improper,

as I showed in the post from 02-04-2007, 01:45 AM

The saying By the grace of Krsna one gets guru, doesn't say that faith comes from Krishna<st1:place w:st="Krishna</st1:place">.</st1:place>

3. Than you proposed another evidence to prove that shraddha comes from <st1:place w:st=" /><st1:place w:st=" on="">Krishna.</st1:place></o>

But everything comes from <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, and by His grace.

So, what makes <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> give somebody bhakti and somebody mukti or the association of a particular type of sadhus?

It is one’s acquired faith, which make one to worship Krishna in a particular way, and <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> rewards one accordingly.

And faith? Faith is due to association. Due to one’s particular association one gets a particular type of faith.

This is elucidated in(Brihan Naradia Purana 4.33)

bhaktis tu bhagavad bhakta saGgena parijAyate |

sat-saGga prApyate pumbhiH sukRtaiH pUrva saJcite ||

The inclination for devine devotion is awakened by the association with the devottes of the Lord

And the association with the pure devotees (SAT SANGA)

can be attained by the accumulated effect of SUKRITI (eternal pious activities) performed over uncountable life times.

There are for type of preliminary association which are counted as bhakti sukritis that bring one in the association of bhakta sadhu:

1. Association with the holy places

2. Association with the holy days

3. Association with bhakti paraphernalia (Tulasi, <st1:city w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Temple</st1:place></st1:city> of the Lord)

4. Association with persons engaged in acts of divine devotion.

Association in one’s life is everything, than according one’s association one gets a certain type of faith. Faith is attachment.

So because of one’s association one earns some kind of attachment.

Attachment is consciousness.

So according one’s association one gets a certain type of consciousness.

Consciousness is love.

And in this connection the transcendental faith is the atomic fraction of transcendental love – premA.

This transcendental faith or divine love is the intrinsec nature of the soul, but is awackened by the preliminary associations which are counted as bhakti sukriti.

[gHari]

 

Dear qHari dandavat pranam,

you gave this quotation from CC Madhya 19.151

Yes, but the translation of kRSNa kRpA is quite direct:

 

CC Madhya 22.47

 

<center>kRSNa yadi kRpA kare kona bhAgyavAne

guru-antaryAmi-rUpe zikhAya Apane</center>

[anadi]

Dear qHari dandavat pranam

You presented the verse CC Madhya 22.47

kRSNa yadi kRpA kare kona bhAgyavAne

guru-antaryAmi-rUpe zikhAya Apane

and added: Yes, but the translation of kRSNa kRpA is quite direct:

Yes it's true...but the verse doesn’t say By the grace of Krsna one gets guru.

Here it is an accurate translation:

 

„If krishna kRSNa yadi shows mercy kRpA kare to some fortunate person kona bhAgyavAne

He gives personally instructions zikhAya Apane

under the form rUpe of guru guru and the supersoul antaryAmi.”

I previouly said:

But everything comes from Krishna and by His grace

So, what makes <st1:place w:st="Krishna</st1:place"> Krishna</st1:place> give somebody bhakti and somebody mukti or the association of a particular type of sadhus?

Please read the previous post.

Mercy has a cause. The humble Vaishnavas say: “by the causeless mercy…”

[gHari]

 

[...]

But everything comes from <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, and by His grace.

[...]

I do think we have hit on an essential axiom here.

 

Hence we see whence came sukriti, faith, visits to holy places, sadhu-sanga, etc. We should be grateful.

 

So the wondrous journey to God is orchestrated by God to perfect our relationship with Him, perfect our love, our devotion. And that devotion, together with the self and Krsna are the only three possessions we have for eternity. Hold tightly to them, and all else will take care of itself in God's divine pastime of perfection revelation and homecoming.

 

The words on the tour guide are of course very inspirational - sraddha, sadhu-sanga, bhajana-kriya, anartha-nivritti, ruci, bhava, prema so glorious. But the tour guide is simply paper with glossy pictures. The real journey is a joy, the only satisfaction of the self and Krsna, and incidentally, the only show in town.

 

SrI Caitanya MahAprabhu summarizes that journey for SanAtana Goswami in Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya-lila 23.14-16:

 

<center>

Adau

zraddhA

tataH

sAdhu-

saGgo

'tha

bhajana-kriyA

tato

'nartha-nivRttiH

syAt

tato

niSThA rucis

tataH

athAsaktis

tato

bhAvas

tataH

premAbhyudaJcati

sAdhakAnAm ayaM premNaH

prAdurbhAve bhavet kramaH

satAM prasaGgAn mama vIrya-saMvido

bhavanti hRt-karNa-rasAyanAH kathAH

taj-joSaNAd Azv apavarga-vartmani

zraddhA ratir bhaktir anukramiSyati

</center>

Adau--in the beginning; zraddhA--firm faith, or disinterest in material affairs and interest in spiritual advancement; tataH--thereafter; sAdhu-saGgaH--association with pure devotees; atha--then; bhajana-kriyA--performance of devotional service to KRSNa (surrendering to the spiritual master and being encouraged by the association of devotees, so that initiation takes place); tataH--thereafter; anartha-nivRttiH--the diminishing of all unwanted habits; syAt--there should be; tataH--then; niSThA--firm faith; ruciH--taste; tataH--thereafter; atha--then; AsaktiH--attachment; tataH--then; bhAvaH--emotion or affection; tataH--thereafter; prema--love of God; abhyudaJcati--arises; sAdhakAnAm--of the devotees practicing KRSNa consciousness; ayam--this; premNaH--of love of Godhead; prAdurbhAve--in the appearance; bhavet--is; kramaH--the chronological order; satAm--of the devotees; prasaGgAt--by the intimate association; mama--of Me; vIrya-saMvidaH--talks full of spiritual potency; bhavanti--appear; hRt--to the heart; karNa--and to the ears; rasa-AyanAH--a source of sweetness; kathAH--talks; tat--of them; joSaNAt--from proper cultivation; Azu--quickly; apavarga--of liberation; vartmani--on the path; zraddhA--faith; ratiH--attraction; bhaktiH--love; anukramiSyati--will follow one after another.

"‘In the beginning there must be faith. Then one becomes interested in associating with pure devotees. Thereafter one is initiated by the spiritual master and executes the regulative principles under his orders. Thus one is freed from all unwanted habits and becomes firmly fixed in devotional service. Thereafter, one develops taste and attachment. This is the way of sAdhana-bhakti, the execution of devotional service according to the regulative principles. Gradually emotions intensify, and finally there is an awakening of love. This is the gradual development of love of Godhead for the devotee interested in KRSNa consciousness. The spiritually powerful message of Godhead can be properly discussed only in a society of devotees, and it is greatly pleasing to hear in that association. If one hears from devotees, the way of transcendental experience quickly opens, and gradually one attains firm faith that in due course develops into attraction and devotion.'

 

[gHari]

 

Dear qHari dandavat pranam

You presented the verse CC Madhya 22.47

kRSNa yadi kRpA kare kona bhAgyavAne

guru-antaryAmi-rUpe zikhAya Apane

and added: Yes, but the translation of kRSNa kRpA is quite direct:

Yes it's true...but the verse doesn’t say By the grace of Krsna one gets guru.

Here it is an accurate translation:

 

„If krishna kRSNa yadi shows mercy kRpA kare to some fortunate person kona bhAgyavAne

He gives personally instructions zikhAya Apane

under the form rUpe of guru guru and the supersoul antaryAmi.”

I previouly said:

But everything comes from Krishna

So, what makes <st1:place w:st="Krishna</st1:place">, and by His grace. Krishna</st1:place> give somebody bhakti and somebody mukti or the association of a particular type of sadhus?

Please read the previous post.

Mercy has a cause. The humble Vaishnavas say: “by the causeless mercy…”

How does Krsna then show His mercy this way (Madhya 22.47) to someone who will never meet a guru? I am satisfied that it means that it is by the mercy of Krsna that we get guru. If Krsna does not speak through a 'guru' then is he really guru or is it really a disciple?

Bhakti, mukti, pain - Krsna gives us what we need. If I put my hand in a flame, He gives me pain - which is what I needed.

'Mercy' by definition has no cause. We are not qualified, but we get it anyway. Otherwise if we are qualified, then it is cause and effect, justice. The dog has justice, but we need mercy.

[anadi]

Dear qHari, dandavat pranam,

you asked:

How does Krsna then show His mercy this way (Madhya 22.47) to someone who will never meet a guru?

 

There is no never. There's always a chance.

<st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is bound to give His mercy in the form of sadhu-sanga and guru diksha / shiksha to a fortunate jiva. (Of course He can do how He pleases.

And that is why it has been said that it is by His mercy. But <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> always follows His words as revealed in the shastra, even if sometimes it seems He doesn’t)

The verse Madhya 22.47 says that the jiva must be fortunate to get <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s mercy. And that fortune of jiva is the good association, starting with:

1. Association with the holy places

<u1:p></u1:p>2. Association with the holy days

<u1:p></u1:p>3. Association with bhakti paraphernalia (Tulasi, <st1:city u2:st="on"><st1:place u2:st="on">prasadam, Bhagavatam hearing, Holy Name hearing, </st1:place></st1:city><st1:city><st1:place>Temple</st1:place></st1:city> of the Lord)

<u1:p></u1:p>4. Association with persons engaged in acts of divine devotion.

This good associations bound <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> to give sadhu sanga and direct instruction through guru. He must be truthful when He says, that He rewards everyone accordingly.

Krishna is always truthfull, because He is all love. ???

[Bhakta Devarsi]

Hare Krsna

 

Dear Anadi,

 

I liked Shakti Fan's answer to my post to you, and saw that I misread what your "elucidation" quote was actually saying. So I just dropped it.

 

But an inner voice said there was something behind even that.

 

So from your reply to me, I will just post this one sentence.

 

"Well, this definition of karma is not accurate, and may be quite confusing. "

 

You wrote this in reference to a statement by Srila Prabhupada.

 

Your subsequent analysis of the various forms of karma, dealt with through dharma or adharma and thus akarma vikarma etc. while probably being a techinically precise exposition is no evidence of what you claim, inaccuracy.

 

It is an incomplete definition but that is different, and wherever you got that quote from, I am certain that in that moment the necessity was such that His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami used an abbreviated and general definition of karma in order to make a point with someone who wasn't prepared to make the distinctions of the deeper levels of meaning just yet.

 

Perhaps if you would make the attempt yourself, left your village alone and go to a mleccha foreign place pennyless to preach and convert, you wouldn't be such a nitpicker of a MahaBhagavat Acharya's techniques.

 

Caution, here be dragons.

 

All Glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga