when is guru to be rejected?

Beggar · February 8, 2007

I'm not going to play semantic games here. I'm not 'admitting' that he changes the truth depending on the circumstances. I'm saying just because he doesn't say 10,000 slokas in one sitting or quote the entire Mahabharat in a purport doesn't mean that he in any way, shape or form is inaccurate.

One time Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharaja was asked about Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's apparently contradictory statement about topics such as the origin of the soul. He replied that sometimes for the sake of pravacana (preaching), "siddhanta (devotional conclusions) may be crossed".

gHari · February 8, 2007

Dear qHari, Dandavat pranam,

You said:

Only forgetfulness of unlimited sins committed over eons and eons since time immemorial could make someone think himself worthy of Krsna's mercy - that Krsna is BOUND to do anything…

But

The fact that Krishna is bound to respect His word, when He says that He rewards everyone accordingly,

it doesn’t mean one should “think himself worthy of Krsna's mercy" You should not jump to false conclusions.

Krishna likes of being bound...by love.

I keep wondering if your arguments really make sense to you. They fall apart in my mind so many ways before I even conclude reading them. I cannot believe that you so unfortunate that the fallacies are not also revealed to you.

Your postures are always nullified by the points in posts that you do not address. You conclude there is no such thing as mercy, that you will demand Krsna when you reach the top step of your staircase. Simply arrogance. You will dance on this step forever.

brajeshwara das · February 8, 2007

One time Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharaja was asked about Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's apparently contradictory statement about topics such as the origin of the soul. He replied that sometimes for the sake of pravacana (preaching), "siddhanta (devotional conclusions) may be crossed".

Thanks for that Beggar. Even so, in this case I don't think Srila Swami Maharaj was contridictory, that doesn't seem to be anadi's contention.

gHari · February 8, 2007

One needs to be more than to be fortunate, even more than maha-bhaga greatly fortunate, as we see vividly on another staircase to heaven in Srimad-Bhagavatam 9.10.26-27:<BLOCKQUOTE><CENTER>hA hatAH sma vayaM nAtha

loka-rAvaNa rAvaNa

kaM yAyAc charaNaM laGkA

tvad-vihInA parArditA

</CENTER>

hA--alas; hatAH--killed; sma--in the past; vayam--all of us; nAtha--O protector; loka-rAvaNa--O husband, who created the crying of so many other people; rAvaNa--O RAvaNa, one who can cause crying of others; kam--unto whom; yAyAt--will go; zaraNam--shelter; laGkA--the state of LaGkA; tvat-vihInA--being bereft of your good self; para-arditA--being defeated by the enemies.

O my lord, O master! You epitomized trouble for others, and therefore you were called RAvaNa. But now that you have been defeated, we also are defeated, for without you the state of LaGkA has been conquered by the enemy. To whom will it go for shelter?

<CENTER>na vai veda mahA-bhAga

bhavAn kAma-vazaM gataH

tejo 'nubhAvaM sItAyA

yena nIto dazAm imAm

</CENTER>

na--not; vai--indeed; veda--did know; mahA-bhAga--O greatly fortunate one; bhavAn--yourself; kAma-vazam--influenced by lusty desires; gataH--having become; tejaH--by influence; anubhAvam--as a result of such influence; sItAyAH--of mother SItA; yena--by which; nItaH--brought into; dazAm--condition; imAm--like this (destruction).

O greatly fortunate one, you came under the influence of lusty desires, and therefore you could not understand the influence of mother SItA. Now, because of her curse, you have been reduced to this state, having been killed by Lord RAmacandra.</BLOCKQUOTE>

Ravana thought he had the good fortune of the association of Sri Sitadevi, but that's another story. Being fortunate, opulent guarantees nothing.

gHari · February 8, 2007

SB 10.60.53

mAM prApya mAniny apavarga-sampadaM

vAJchanti ye sampada eva tat-patim

te

manda-bhAgA

niraye 'pi ye nRNAM

mAtrAtmakatvAt nirayaH su-saGgamaH

</center>

mAm--Myself; prApya--obtaining; mAnini--O reservoir of love; apavarga--of liberation; sampadam--the treasure; vAJchanti--they desire; ye--who; sampadaH--(material) treasures; eva--only; tat--of such; patim--the master; te--they;

manda-bhAgAH

--less fortunate; niraye--in hell; api--even; ye--which; nRNAm--for persons; mAtrA-AtmakatvAt--because they are absorbed in sense gratification; nirayaH--hell; su-saGgamaH--appropriate.

O supreme reservoir of love, unfortunate are they who even after obtaining Me, the Lord of both liberation and material riches, hanker only for material treasures. These worldly gains can be found even in hell. Since such persons are obsessed with sense gratification, hell is a fitting place for them.

gHari · February 8, 2007

Lord Caitanya explains the root cause of sukrti directly in CC Antya 16.100:

‘sukRti'-zabde kahe ‘kRSNa-kRpA-hetu puNya'

sei yAGra haya, ‘phelA' pAya sei dhanya"

</center>

sukRti-

-sukRti (pious activities); zabde--the word; kahe--is to be understood;

kRSNa-kRpA--the mercy of KRSNa

; hetu--because of; puNya--pious activities; sei--he; yAGra--of whom; haya--there is; phelA--the remnants of food; pAya--gets; sei--he; dhanya--very glorious.

"The word ‘sukRti' refers to pious activities performed by the mercy of KRSNa. One who is fortunate enough to obtain such mercy receives the remnants of the Lord's food and thus becomes glorious."

CC Madhya 24.104:

sAdhu-saGga, kRSNa-kRpA, bhaktira svabhAva

e tine saba chADAya, kare kRSNe ‘bhAva'

</center>

sAdhu-saGga--the association of devotees; kRSNa-kRpA--the mercy of Lord KRSNa; bhaktira--of devotional service; svabhAva--nature;

e tine--these three

; saba chADAya--cause one to give up everything else; kare--do; kRSNe--unto Lord KRSNa; bhAva--the loving affairs.

"Association with a devotee, the mercy of KRSNa, and the nature of devotional service help one to give up all undesirable association and gradually attain elevation to the platform of love of Godhead.

<BLOCKQUOTE><CENTER>prabhu kahe,----"kRSNa-kRpA baliSTha sabA haite

tomAre kADila viSaya-viSThA-garta haite"

</CENTER>

prabhu kahe--Lord SrI Caitanya MahAprabhu said; kRSNa-kRpA--the mercy of Lord KRSNa; baliSTha--more powerful; sabA haite--than anything; tomAre--you; kADila--He has delivered; viSaya--of material enjoyment; viSThA--of stool; garta--the ditch; haite--from.

Lord SrI Caitanya MahAprabhu said, "The mercy of Lord KRSNa is stronger than anything else. Therefore the Lord has delivered you from the ditch of materialistic life, which is like a hole into which people pass stool."

<CENTER>kRpAra samudra, dIna-hIne dayAmaya

kRSNa-kRpA vinA kona ‘sukha' nAhi haya"

</CENTER>

kRpAra samudra--ocean of mercy; dIna-hIne--unto the poor and fallen; dayA-maya--very merciful; kRSNa-kRpA--the mercy of KRSNa; vinA--without; kona--any; sukha--happiness; nAhi haya--there is not.

"KRSNa is an ocean of mercy. He is especially merciful to the poor and fallen. Without His mercy, there is no possibility of happiness."

<CENTER>‘kRSNa----kRpA-pArAvAra, kabhu karibena aGgIkAra'

sakhi, tora e vyartha vacana

jIvera jIvana caJcala, yena padma-patrera jala,

tata dina jIve kon jana

</CENTER>

kRSNa--Lord KRSNa; kRpA-pArAvAra--an ocean of mercy; kabhu--sometimes; karibena--will make; aGgIkAra--acceptance; sakhi--My dear friend; tora--your; e--these; vyartha--untruthful; vacana--complimentary words; jIvera--of the living entity; jIvana--life; caJcala--flickering; yena--like; padma-patrera--of the leaf of the lotus flower; jala--the water; tata--so many; dina--days; jIve--lives; kon--what; jana--person.

"I say, ‘My dear friends, you are asking Me to be patient, saying that KRSNa is an ocean of mercy and that some time in the future He will accept Me. However, I must say that this will not console Me. A living entity's life is very flickering. It is like water on the leaf of a lotus flower. Who will live long enough to expect KRSNa's mercy?</BLOCKQUOTE>

anadi · February 8, 2007

Dear qHari, Dandavat pranam

You said:

Only forgetfulness of unlimited sins committed over eons and eons since time immemorial could make someone think himself worthy of Krsna's mercy - that Krsna is BOUND to do anything…

My reply was

The fact that <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is bound to respect His word, when He says that He rewards everyone accordingly, it doesn’t mean one should “think himself worthy of Krsna's mercy" (as you concluded)

You should not jump to false conclusions.

Your commentary

I keep wondering if your arguments really make sense to you. They fall apart in my mind so many ways before I even conclude reading them. I cannot believe that you so unfortunate that the fallacies are not also revealed to you. Your postures are always nullified by the points in posts that you do not address.

Please can you help me and be more precise?

Then you said:

You conclude there is no such thing as mercy, that you will demand Krsna when you reach the top step of your staircase. Simply arrogance.

But

This is your conclusion not mine, and for your conclusion you are stamping me as arrogant.

Sorry that I say it, but if you don’t understand something you should ask first.

Shraddha comes not out of mercy, and this does not mean that there is no such thing as mercy, as you stated.

If mercy is not related to the awakening of faith, it doesn’t mean that there is no such thing as mercy, as you stated.

As I brought evidence from shastra <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> behaves equal to everyone up to the point where one starts to worship Him.

He doesn't say that He will give someone shraddha just because He wants it. He explained in the shrutis how it happens.(See Brihad aranyaka Upanishad)

In the.Bhagavad-gita 9.29 He also says He behaves equaly to everyone samo 'haḿ sarva-bhūtesu up to the point where one starts to worship Him.

samo 'haḿ sarva-bhūtesu na me dveṣyo 'sti na priyaḥ |

ye bhajanti tu māḿ bhaktyā mayi te teṣu cāpy aham ||

From the moment someone starts to do bhajan to attain Him, things change.

In this connection, for the Gaudiya Vaishnavas, which have been blessed to inherit the path of raga-anunga, mercy is of outmost importance

Though the direct cause for the awakening of greed for attaining the divine loving feelings of the most confident associates of Krishna in Vraja, is the hearing of narrations about His Vraja-pastimes, one must also give due consideration to the foundational cause of the phenomena.

kRSNa tad bhakta kAruNya mAtra lobhaika hetukA |

puSTi mArgatayA kaizcid iyaM rAgAnugocyate || (brs 1.2.309)

“The only causes of the appearance of sacred greed are the mercy of Sri Krishna or the mercy of His devotee.

Therefore some also call the path of raganuga-bhakti with the name pusti-marga (the path of grace).”

The mercy of Sri Krishna or His devotees is the cause of that spiritual greed, which causes eligibility for the practice of raganuga-bhakti.

sa ca bhagavat kRpA hetuko ‘nurAgI bhakta kRpA hetukaz ceti dvividhaH |

tatra bhakta kRpA hetuko dvividhaH prAktana Adhunikaz ca |

prAktanaH – paurva bhavika tAdRza bhakta kRpotthaH, AdhunikaH etaj janmAvadhi tAdRza bhakta kRpotthaH |

Adye sati lobhAnantaraM tAdRza guru caraNAzrayaNam |

dvitIye guru caraNAzrayAnantaraM lobha pravRttir bhavati || (rvc 1.6)

There are said to be two causes for the appearance of the aforementioned greed, namely the mercy of God and the mercy of an anuragi devotee. There are again two kinds of mercy bestowed by a devotee, namely old and recent.

Greed which is born from the mercy of such devotees of Sri Krishna in a previous life is known as old (praktana).

Greed which is born from the mercy of a devotee in the present life is known as recent (adhunika).

In the one in whom greed has awakened in a previous birth, his greed manifests and he then takes shelter of the feet of a raganugiya devotee guru. One whose greed is recent will first take shelter of the feet of a guru, after which his greed appears.

gHari · February 8, 2007

You said that Krsna must show His mercy if one is fortunate, because He said that. Then it is clearly not mercy - but simply a business contract, barter, give me this and I'll give you that. The error is in assuming that one 'must be' fortunate before receiving mercy - it is the mercy that makes him fortunate. It is not cause and effect - mercy has no rational cause; otherwise there is no meaning to the word. Krpa has no cause other than devotion, love, compassion and that cannot be quantiified or legislated into a cause-effect equation. By Krsna's mercy one gets guru .........

kRSNa yadi kRpA kare kona bhAgyavAne

guru-antaryAmi-rUpe zikhAya Apane

</center>

kRSNa--Lord KRSNa;

yadi--if;

kRpA kare--shows His mercy; kona bhAgyavAne--to some fortunate person; guru--of the spiritual master; antaryAmi--of the Supersoul; rUpe--in the form; zikhAya--teaches; Apane--personally.

"KRSNa is situated in everyone's heart as the caitya-guru, the spiritual master within. When He is kind to some fortunate conditioned soul, He personally gives him lessons so he can progress in devotional service, instructing the person as the Supersoul within and the spiritual master without.

I was fortunate to win the lottery. I was very unfortunate before, living in a latrine.

Krsna says He rewards all accordingly, and this is justice. Mercy is beyond justice.

You tried to deny the words "Krsna-Krpa" in Madhya 22.47 by making it mechanical:

This good associations bound <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> to give sadhu sanga and direct instruction through guru. He must be truthful when He says, that He rewards everyone accordingly.

Bhakta Devarsi · February 8, 2007

In the same way that at one time we were just as unaware as the people at the football game hearing us chant harinama of what was GOING TO HAPPEN in the future because of that ajnata sukriti...

They received mercy and it was not because they deserved it by standing there buying their 3rd hot dog. Its cause was transcendental. Thus causeless by MATERIAL CALCULATION. The cause is Krsna's love for his long lost part an parcel. What else?

So Lord Krsna as Supersoul has taken note of their good fortune to have received causeless mercy, and is now with the help of the demigods arranging a future meeting place whereby those blessed souls will meet Sri Guru externally, maybe first through a book, then through some more direct intimate association with a sadhak perhaps, who knows.

Point is, the phrase That by Krsna's mercy one gets Guru is perfect. The chanting party on harinam is a manifestation of Sri Krsna's mercy, the person hearing is unaware, unconscious of what ajnata sukriti is being developed by passive hearing, or maybe joking later with a friend about those "hare Krishnas", and from that moment, Krsna's mercy sets Grace into motion, and that person eventually gets Guru.

So nice

Hare Krsna

raga · February 9, 2007

raga, are you sure you are hearing brajeshwara correctly? I reread his post and it seems to me he is saying exactly what you are saying.

Yes, I read him correctly and agree with him. I responded to the concept he summarized.

February 9, 2007

Maybe before smashing everyone over the head with the scriptural books of perfect knowledge some of the participants like anadi can clarify the practical results of their advanced knowledge on how to find a guru. This could be clarified by:

Stating how many times they have been initiated

Stating how many of their gurus have fallen

Stating how many of their gurus they have rejected

State whether or not they consider themselves properly initiated at present

Does anyone really want to be taught the advanced intricacies of finding a spiritual master by people who have striked out many times?

anadi · February 9, 2007

One needs to be more than to be fortunate, even more than maha-bhaga greatly fortunate, as we see vividly on another staircase to heaven in Srimad-Bhagavatam 9.10.26-27:

<CENTER>

hA hatAH sma vayaM nAtha

loka-rAvaNa rAvaNa

kaM yAyAc charaNaM laGkA

tvad-vihInA parArditA

</CENTER>

hA--alas; hatAH--killed; sma--in the past; vayam--all of us; nAtha--O protector; loka-rAvaNa--O husband, who created the crying of so many other people; rAvaNa--O RAvaNa, one who can cause crying of others; kam--unto whom; yAyAt--will go; zaraNam--shelter; laGkA--the state of LaGkA; tvat-vihInA--being bereft of your good self; para-arditA--being defeated by the enemies.

O my lord, O master! You epitomized trouble for others, and therefore you were called RAvaNa. But now that you have been defeated, we also are defeated, for without you the state of LaGkA has been conquered by the enemy. To whom will it go for shelter?

<CENTER>

na vai veda

mahA-bhAga

bhavAn kAma-vazaM gataH

tejo 'nubhAvaM sItAyA

yena nIto dazAm imAm

</CENTER>

na--not; vai--indeed; veda--did know; mahA-bhAga--O greatly fortunate one; bhavAn--yourself; kAma-vazam--influenced by lusty desires; gataH--having become; tejaH--by influence; anubhAvam--as a result of such influence; sItAyAH--of mother SItA; yena--by which; nItaH--brought into; dazAm--condition; imAm--like this (destruction).

O greatly fortunate one

, you came under the influence of lusty desires, and therefore you could not understand the influence of mother SItA. Now, because of her curse, you have been reduced to this state, having been killed by Lord RAmacandra.

Ravana thoght he had the good fortune of the association of Sri Sitadevi, but that's another story. Being fortunate, opulent guarantees nothing.

Dear qHari, dandavat pranam,

This has nothing to do with the fortune of bhakti sukriti, which is the prerequisite for shraddha.

And Ravana wanted to enjoy Sita, that is why he kidnapped Her (not for bhakti association). He had a demoniac mentality.

anadi · February 9, 2007

SB 10.60.53

<CENTER>

mAM prApya mAniny apavarga-sampadaM

vAJchanti ye sampada eva tat-patim

te

manda-bhAgA

niraye 'pi ye nRNAM

mAtrAtmakatvAt nirayaH su-saGgamaH

</CENTER>

mAm--Myself; prApya--obtaining; mAnini--O reservoir of love; apavarga--of liberation; sampadam--the treasure; vAJchanti--they desire; ye--who; sampadaH--(material) treasures; eva--only; tat--of such; patim--the master; te--they;

manda-bhAgAH

--less fortunate; niraye--in hell; api--even; ye--which; nRNAm--for persons; mAtrA-AtmakatvAt--because they are absorbed in sense gratification; nirayaH--hell; su-saGgamaH--appropriate.

O supreme reservoir of love, unfortunate are they who even after obtaining Me, the Lord of both liberation and material riches, hanker only for material treasures. These worldly gains can be found even in hell. Since such persons are obsessed with sense gratification, hell is a fitting place for them.

Dear qHari, Dandavat pranam,

<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> spoke about people whose pious activities are deemed for sens enjoyment, and that he has to bless (reward) them accordingly:

Although I have the power to award spiritual liberation, lusty persons worship Me with penance and vows in order to get My blessings for their mundane family life. Such persons are bewildered by My illusory energy.

And Rukmini rerplied:

O supreme reservoir of love, unfortunate are they who even after obtaining Me, the Lord of both liberation and material riches, hanker only for material treasures. These worldly gains can be found even in hell. Since such persons are obsessed with sense gratification, hell is a fitting place for them.

This is has nothing to do with the fortune of bhakti sukriti.

anadi · February 9, 2007

Sukrti Gained by Krsna's Mercy ... not the rolling of dice<HR align=center width="100%" color=white noShade SIZE=1>

Lord Caitanya explains the root cause of sukrti directly in CC Antya 16.100:

‘sukRti'-zabde kahe ‘kRSNa-kRpA-hetu puNya'

sei yAGra haya, ‘phelA' pAya sei dhanya"

sukRti--sukRti (pious activities); zabde--the word; kahe--is to be understood; kRSNa-kRpA--the mercy of KRSNa; hetu--because of; puNya--pious activities; sei--he; yAGra--of whom; haya--there is; phelA--the remnants of food; pAya--gets; sei--he; dhanya--very glorious.

"The word ‘sukRti' refers to pious activities performed by the mercy of KRSNa. One who is fortunate enough to obtain such mercy receives the remnants of the Lord's food and thus becomes glorious."

Dear qHari, Dandavat pranam,

One has to be fortunate to obtain such mercy, and this is haituki kripa, kripa that has a cause.

<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com ><st1:place w:st= Krishna</st1:place> can also give His mercy without a cause, but this is not the rule. One has to do something to attain His mercy.

[color=black>

<FONT]<st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> can also give His mercy without a cause, but this is not the rule. One has to do something to attain His mercy.

Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu gave this meaning to the word sukriti in the context of eating the same that <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> touched with His lips.

Please see the context:

Lord Caitanya said to the doorman, "You are My friend. Please show Me where the Lord of My heart is." After the Lord said this, they both went to the place known as Jagamohana, where everyone views Lord Jagannātha.

Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu stayed behind the huge column called the Garuḍa-stambha and looked upon Lord Jagannātha, but as He looked He saw that Lord Jagannātha had become Lord Kṛṣṇa, with His flute to His mouth.

The offering of food known as gopāla-vallabha-bhoga was then given to Lord Jagannātha, and ārati was performed with the sound of the conch and the ringing of bells.

When the ārati finished, the prasādam was taken out, and the servants of Lord Jagannātha came to offer some to Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu

The servants of Lord Jagannātha first garlanded Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu and then offered Him Lord Jagannātha's prasādam. The prasādam was so nice that its aroma alone, to say nothing of its taste, would drive the mind mad.

The prasādam was made of very valuable ingredients. Therefore the servant wanted to feed Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu a portion of it.

Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu tasted a portion of the prasādam. Govinda took the rest and bound it in the end of his wrapper.

To Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu the prasādam tasted millions upon millions of times better than nectar, and thus He was fully satisfied. The hair all over His body stood on end, and incessant tears flowed from His eyes.

Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu considered, "Where has such a taste in this prasādam come from? Certainly it is due to its having been touched by the nectar of Kṛṣṇa's lips."

Understanding this, Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu felt an emotion of ecstatic love for Kṛṣṇa, but upon seeing the servants of Lord Jagannātha, He restrained Himself.

The Lord said again and again, "Only by great fortune may one come by a particle of the remnants of food offered to the Lord."The servants of the Jagannātha temple inquired, "What is the meaning of this?"

Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu replied, "These are remnants of food that Kṛṣṇa has eaten and thus turned to nectar with His lips. It surpasses heavenly nectar, and even such demigods as Lord Brahmā find it difficult to obtain.

"Remnants left by Kṛṣṇa are called phelā. Anyone who obtains even a small portion must be considered very fortunate.

"One who is only ordinarily fortunate cannot obtain such mercy. Only persons who have the full mercy of Kṛṣṇa can receive such remnants.

"The word 'sukṛti' refers to pious activities performed by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa. One who is fortunate enough to obtain such mercy receives the remnants of the Lord's food and thus becomes glorious."

As you can see here it is spoken of the special mercy of <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> of tasting the remanants of the Lord.

In this connection the remnants of the Lord, Sriman Mahaprabhu is speaking of, is very special. Only very few highly elevated personalities upon Sri Krishna mercy has downed can taste such prasad.

Beggar · February 9, 2007

Maybe before smashing everyone over the head with the scriptural books of perfect knowledge some of the participants like anadi can clarify the practical results of their advanced knowledge on how to find a guru. This could be clarified by:

Stating how many times they have been initiated

Stating how many of their gurus have fallen

Stating how many of their gurus they have rejected

State whether or not they consider themselves properly initiated at present

Does anyone really want to be taught the advanced intricacies of finding a spiritual master by people who have striked out many times?

This is very true. But if you do strike out, a word of warning, never argue balls and strikes with Paramatma. I think that's what happened to me, I was ejected from the real devotional game...NOT!!! Balderdash and bulldung! The only way to be ejected is Vaishnava aparadha! Also the best home run hitters often have the highest rate of strike outs because they usually swing for the fence. :mad2: :mad: :pray:

anadi · February 9, 2007

You said that Krsna must show His mercy if one is fortunate, because He said that. Then it is clearly not mercy - but simply a business contract, barter, give me this and I'll give you that. The error is in assuming that one 'must be' fortunate before receiving mercy - it is the mercy that makes him fortunate. It is not cause and effect - mercy has no rational cause; otherwise there is no meaning to the word. Krpa has no cause other than devotion, love, compassion and that cannot be quantiified or legislated into a cause-effect equation. By Krsna's mercy one gets guru .........

<CENTER>

kRSNa yadi kRpA kare kona bhAgyavAne

guru-antaryAmi-rUpe zikhAya Apane

</CENTER>

kRSNa--Lord KRSNa;

yadi--if;

kRpA kare--shows His mercy; kona bhAgyavAne--to some fortunate person; guru--of the spiritual master; antaryAmi--of the Supersoul; rUpe--in the form; zikhAya--teaches; Apane--personally.

"KRSNa is situated in everyone's heart as the caitya-guru, the spiritual master within. When He is kind to some fortunate conditioned soul, He personally gives him lessons so he can progress in devotional service, instructing the person as the Supersoul within and the spiritual master without.

I was fortunate to win the lottery. I was very unfortunate before, living in a latrine.

Krsna says He rewards all accordingly, and this is justice. Mercy is beyond justice.

You tried to deny the words "Krsna-Krpa" in Madhya 22.47 by making it mechanical:

Most dear qHari, dandavat pranam,

regarding your previous staments Krishna says quite clearly(Bg 2.62-64);

While contemplating the objects of the senses, a person develops attachment for them, and from such attachment lust develops, and from lust anger arises.

From anger, complete delusion arises, and from delusion bewilderment of memory. When memory is bewildered, intelligence is lost, and when intelligence is lost one falls down again into the material pool.

But tu one who has become free vimuktaiḥ (from) material attachments rāga, envy dveṣa , and has und control ātma-vaśyaiḥ the senses indriyaiḥ acted upon caran material sense objects viṣayān and follows regulated principles related to the soul vidheya-ātmā attains adhigacchati the mercy of the Lord prasādam

rāga-dveṣa-vimuktais tuviṣayān indriyaiś caran |

ātma-vaśyair vidheyātmā prasādamadhigacchati ||

As you can see the rules of attaining the mercy of the Lord are deliniated by Krishna Himself.

The causeless mercy of the Lord is not the rule, but the exception.

brajeshwara das · February 9, 2007

I have been initiated twice: once as a child in confirmation in the Episcopal Church. I never rejected Christ but I rejected the Bible in it's current manifestation and I rejected the Episcopal faith and perspective on Christ. I didn't feel they represented Guru Jesus so I left. I thought the Lord's mercy must be available to all even if they never heard the name Jesus so couldn't accept Christianity.

I was initiated by Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda dev-Goswami Maharaj and consider myself properly initiated at present.

I did commit plenty of Vaishnava aparadha which made me live in exile from the Math for a long while (7 years bad luck!) but I never rejected my Guru or Gaudiya Vaisnava teachings, though my faith was pretty weak for a while. The mercy is the Vaisnavas don't take offense, so here I am again. Dayal Nitai!

I am an ignorant person and have many faults, so please forgive any misrepresentations or offenses I may have commited here. They are solely my own.

brajeshwara das · February 9, 2007

I feel extremely sorry for you anadi because prasadam is freely available to all across the world with no qualifications. That is causeless mercy and it is a torrential downpour. The Lord's mercy is endless, that you tie your justifications that it is an exception to shastra makes me think you have made up your mind to back up your conclusions with scripture, not the other way around. The people hearing a hari nama party, the folks at the homeless shelter I used to bring prasadam, etc. sure, they are not attaining the mercy of the Lord through the methods stated in the sloka you mention, but show me where it says causeless mercy is an exception? Lord Caitanya and Lord Nityananda are distributing it to all without qualification, the untouchables are touchable with Thier causeless mercy.

May you receive some causeless mercy and understand this essential point.

brajeshwara das · February 9, 2007

That we can be proper receivers of that mercy is another matter alltogether.

Shakti-Fan · February 9, 2007

This topic is concerning points of the Krsna conscious philosophy that appear to be opposite, so therefore need to be harmonized. First we must apply Mahaprabhu's conception that the harmony lies in the fact that both poles are inconceivably, simultaneously, one and different. Acintya bheda A-bheda tattva. Acintyah khalu ye bhava na tams tarkena yojayet. It is acintya, it is beyond our conception, how Krsna can tell in sastra how to qualify for krpa, mercy and then come as Sri Gaura Nitai and distribute it wholesale without any qualification. Srila Prabhupada would often make a statement and then say, "on the other hand" and give the antithesis, which would be just as true. On this thread we have the thesis attempting to cut off the hand of the antithesis and visa versa. It begins to border on some kind of aparadha for there is no search for synthesis, but rather only argumentum ad nauseum.

Guruvani · February 9, 2007

Does anybody know if there are any disciples of Tripurari Maharaja that have rejected him for Sridhar Maharaja or Govinda Maharaja?

theist · February 9, 2007

Please, let's keep this thread out of the the gossip gutter. Most of Srila Prabhupada's thousands of formally intiated disciples have fallen away in one form or another also. They could all leave for some mayavadi sect even and it would not effect Srila Prabhupada's fixed position as the eternal loving servant and friend of Krsna.

Thus sort of inquiry is obviously designed to bring discord to the forefront. It is not at all edifying. Do not take the bait. It will only kill this interesting thread causing it to die off like so many others.

Beggar · February 9, 2007

Does anybody know if there are any disciples of Tripurari Maharaja that have rejected him for Sridhar Maharaja or Govinda Maharaja?

Back in the early '90s there was something going on in Tripurari Maharaja's camp and several of his disciples defected to Govinda Maharaja.

theist · February 9, 2007

This topic is concerning points of the Krsna conscious philosophy that appear to be opposite, so therefore need to be harmonized. First we must apply Mahaprabhu's conception that the harmony lies in the fact that both poles are inconceivably, simultaneously, one and different. Acintya bheda A-bheda tattva. Acintyah khalu ye bhava na tams tarkena yojayet. It is acintya, it is beyond our conception, how Krsna can tell in sastra how to qualify for krpa, mercy and then come as Sri Gaura Nitai and distribute it wholesale without any qualification. Srila Prabhupada would often make a statement and then say, "on the other hand" and give the antithesis, which would be just as true. On this thread we have the thesis attempting to cut off the hand of the antithesis and visa versa. It begins to border on some kind of aparadha for there is no search for synthesis, but rather only argumentum ad nauseum.

Beautifully said and what is said is a fact. It is the like the endless debate between the advaitins and the dvaitins. One concentrates on oneness and other other on separation. The debate was resolved by Lord Caitanya with His acintya bhedabheda-tattva.

It is a fact mercy is above justice. It is a fact that grace cannot be earned as in so much pious merit = krpa at some determined point.

This is how it is harmonized for me. The law of cause and effect which rules the desitinies of all souls living in matter is certainly not grace when see as a cold impersonal law of universal governess.

Yet when view it from a broader angle we see that it is also grace because the Supreme Designer has structured it in such a way as to correct the wayward soul, humble Him and eventually cause him to seek the grace and mercy of the Supreme Lord, everyone's eternal Friend.

So this is a broader view of grace but is not fitting most discussions because we need to see clear distinctions between operating under karmic law and placing ourselves under the influence of the grace of the Lord.

brajeshwara das · February 9, 2007

So (in an attempt to get back on topic), when is Guru to be rejected? If one comes to the realization thier diksha or siksha Guru is no longer (or never was) a conduit of truth from the Lord, then is rejecting them rejecting Guru? I don't think so, because Guru is no longer present there. Isn't Guru the like the light in the bulb, not the bulb? As long as we don't lose faith that the Lord is coming to us in the form of Guru, we are safe. So I believe Guru should never be rejected.

when is guru to be rejected?

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