when is guru to be rejected?

[theist]

Yes never rejected but also always accepted with the proper understanding in the first place. If one finds they made a mistake it is only natural for them to correct the situation.

[brajeshwara das]

 

Yes never rejected but also always accepted with the proper understanding in the first place. If one finds they made a mistake it is only natural for them to correct the situation.

 

Of course.

[gHari]

 

rāga-dveṣa-vimuktais tuviṣayān indriyaiś caran |

ātma-vaśyair vidheyātmā prasādamadhigacchati ||

Perhaps this verse describes the prerequisites, not the cause.

 

Because we are servants of Lord Caitanya's servants, mercy is likely the most important topic. Almost like the science of love, we treasure the science of mercy. So while not exactly on topic, it will surely assist the original inquirer in dealing with their guru dilemma, for if guru is not Krsna's mercy then I don't know what is.

 

Even the holy places of pilgrimage where one's fortune of sukrti awaits are only holy because of Krsna's mercy. Thus manifesting His mercy to all is one of the reasons He delights in performing His Nitya-lila. Every place where Krsna in His innumerable incarnations displays His pastimes becomes a holy place of pilgrimage. Even the hearts of His sincere devotees in which He happily manifests are sources of such mercy. Anything in the material world that is related to the Supreme Absolute Sri Krsna is our glimpse of His mercy. A chance to appreciate the Ultimate, to fall in love. It pleases the Transcendental Autocrat that it is so.

 

If fortune comes from sukrti, and sukrti comes from mercy (as referenced previously), then I do not see how one must be fortunate to receive mercy, for it seems an impossibility to take a first step. Of course the paradox is solved if we recognize that any transcendental flavour or contact or interaction or interjection within this material sphere is extraordinary and certainly beyond the justice we all deserve.

 

And beyond justice, we find this plane of mercy which can reach down and snatch us up to the spotless domain of Absolute satisfaction. If we are indeed fortunate, we find the epitome of mercy, Gauranga, the source of the ocean of mercy, Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu whose tears flood the entire world.

 

 

Chance versus Mercy

MadhudviSa: So we say that everything has a cause.

PrabhupAda: Yes.

MadhudviSa: But then we have causeless mercy. So would that be chance?

PrabhupAda: Eh?

MadhudviSa: We have also causeless mercy, meeting the pure devotee. Is that a chance?

PrabhupAda: No. I.... We don't accept that chance. The causeless is a mercy. Causeless mercy is the cause.

TamAla KRSNa: Yeah. The mercy is the cause.

PrabhupAda: The mercy may be causeless, but the mercy is the cause.

MadhudviSa: But then which is the cause?

PuSTa KRSNa: The mercy is the cause.

TamAla KRSNa: That's a cause.

PuSTa KRSNa: You did nothing to deserve it, but it's caused your good fortune.

Trivikrama: Jaya.

 

 

CC Madhya 24.205

 

<center>

kRSNa-kRpAdi-hetu haite sabAra udaya

kRSNa-guNAkRSTa haJA tAGhAre bhajaya

</center>

kRSNa-kRpA-Adi-hetu--the reason of KRSNa's mercy; haite--from; sabAra udaya--anyone becomes a devotee; kRSNa-guNa-AkRSTa haJA--being attracted by the transcendental qualities of KRSNa; tAGhAre--Him; bhajaya--worship.

"Everyone is eligible to receive KRSNa's mercy--including VyAsadeva, the four KumAras, Sukadeva GosvAmI, lowborn creatures, trees, plants and beasts. By KRSNa's mercy they are elevated and engaged in His service.

CC Antya 20.30

 

<center>

"dhana, jana nAhi mAgoG, kavitA sundarI

‘zuddha-bhakti' deha' more, kRSNa

kRpA kari'

"

</center>

dhana--wealth; jana--followers; nAhi--do not; mAgoG--I want; kavitA sundarI--a beautiful wife or fruitive activities; zuddha-bhakti--pure devotional service; deha'--please award; more--unto Me; kRSNa--O Lord KRSNa; kRpA kari'--becoming merciful.

"My dear Lord KRSNa, I do not want material wealth from You, nor do I want followers, a beautiful wife or the results of fruitive activities. I only pray that by Your causeless mercy You give Me pure devotional service to You, life after life."

 

[gHari]

<center>From DhAmAli

 

The Mercy of SrI Gaura and NityAnanda

 

By SrI Locana DAsa ThAkura

With purports by AC Bhaktivednata Swami Prabhupada</center>

 

 

 

 

parama koruNa, pahU dui jana,

nitAi gauracandra

saba avatAra-sAra ziromaNi,

kevala Ananda-kanda

 

 

<b>

 

 

The two Lords, NitAi-Gauracandra, are very merciful. They are the essence of all incarnations. The specific significance of these incarnations is that They introduced a process of chanting and dancing that is simply joyful.

 

</b>Parama koruNa, pahU dui jana, nitAi gauracandra. This is a song by Locana dAsa ThAkura, a great devotee and AcArya of the GauDIya-sampradAya. He is declaring that pahU dui jana. PahU means lords. Dui jana means two. Who are the two lords? NitAi Gauracandra. One is Lord NitAi, NityAnanda; another is Lord SrI Caitanya MahAprabhu. So he says that "These two Lords are very merciful.'' Parama koruNa, pahU dui jana. Parama koruNa means very merciful. Nitai Gauracandra. Saba avatAra, sAra ziromaNi. AvatAra means incarnation, and saba means all. "They are the essence of all incarnations.'' Saba avatAra, sAra ziromaNi, kevala Ananda-kanda: "And the specific significance of these incarnations is that to engage in their ways of self-realization is simply joyful,'' Ananda-kanda. They introduced chanting and dancing. No other incarnation has ever done that. There are many incarnations, like Lord RAma. Even KRSNa, He taught Bhagavad-gItA. That requires knowledge, understanding. But here Lord Caitanya, NityAnanda, introduced some process which is simply joyful: simply chant and dance. Kevala Ananda-kanda. Saba avatAra, sAra ziromaNi, kevala Ananda-kanda.

 

Therefore he requests everyone, bhajo bhajo bhAi, caitanya nitAi: "My dear brothers, I request you. Just you worship Lord Caitanya and NityAnanda.'' SudRDha bizwAsa kori': "With firm faith and conviction.'' Don't think that this chanting and dancing will not lead you to the desired goal. It will because there is the assurance of Lord Caitanya MahAprabhu that you will get all perfection by this process. Therefore Locana dAsa ThAkura says that "You must have firm faith and conviction.'' It will act. Bhajo bhajo bhAi, caitanya nitAi, sudRDha. SudRDha means firm. BizwAsa kori', with faith and conviction. But what is the process? The process is viSaya chADiyA, se rase majiyA. If you want to be KRSNa conscious with that process, then you have to give up your engagement of sense gratification. That is the only restriction. If you can do that. Then it will be very nice. If you give up sense gratification and come to this stage, then it is for sure that you will reach the desired goal. ViSaya chADiya, se rase majiyA, mukhe bolo hari hari: "And you have to simply chant Hare KRSNa, ‘Hari Hari,' that's all, without any motives for sense gratification.''

 

Dekho dekho bhAi, tri-bhuvane nAi. He says, "My dear brothers, you just try and examine that within these three worlds there is nobody like Lord Caitanya or NityAnanda Prabhu.'' Because, pazu pAkhI jhure, pASANa vidare: "Their mercy and qualities are so great that even birds and beasts are crying, what to speak of human beings?'' When Lord Caitanya MahAprabhu passed through the forest of JhArigrAma, the tigers, the elephants, the snake, the deer, all joined Him in chanting Hare KRSNa. It is so nice. Anyone can join. If animals can join, what to speak of human beings? Of course, it is not possible for ordinary men to enthuse animals to chant, but Caitanya MahAprabhu actually did it. So even if we cannot enthuse animals, we can enthuse at least human beings to this path of Hare KRSNa mantra chanting. Pazu pAkhI jhure, pASANa vidare. And it is so nice that even the most stonehearted men will melt. PASANa vidare. PASANa means stone, and vidare. PASANa, even stone, will melt. It is so nice. But he regrets that, viSaya majiyA: "Being entrapped by sense gratification...'' ViSaya majiyA, rohili bhuliyA. He's addressing himself, "My dear mind, you are entrapped in the process of sense gratification and you have no attraction for chanting Hare KRSNa.''

 

ViSaya bhuliyA, rohili majiyA, se pade nahilo Aza: "You have no attraction for the lotus feet of Caitanya-NityAnanda. So what can I say? Apana karama, bhuJjAya zamana: "I can only simply think of my misfortune that when YamarAja, the superintendent of death, is punishing me in this way, that he is not allowing me to be attracted to this movement.'' This is the statement of kahoye locana-dAsa: "This is the statement of Locana dAsa ThAkura.'' (end)

 

 

 

<center>bhajo bhajo bhAi, caitanya nitAi,

sudRDha bizwAsa kori'

viSaya chAriyA, se rase majiyA

mukhe bolo hari hari

 

My dear brother, I request that you just worship Lord Caitanya and NityAnanda with firm conviction and faith. If one wants to be KRSNa conscious by this process, one has to give up his engagement in sense gratification. One simply has to chant, "Hare KRSNa! Hari Hari!" without any motive.

</center>Parama koruNa, pahU dui jana, nitAi gauracandra. This is a song sung by Locana dAsa ThAkura, a great devotee of Lord Caitanya, almost contemporary. He wrote one book, Caitanya-maGgala, depicting the activities of Lord Caitanya. Caitanya-maGgala is a very famous book. He has composed many songs. Practically all VaiSNavas are transcendentally poetic. That is one of the 26 qualifications of a VaiSNava. So he says that "These two Lords," nitAi gauracandra, "Lord NityAnanda and Lord GaurAGga, or Lord Caitanya, They are very merciful incarnations.'' Saba avatAra-sAra ziromaNi. "They are the essence of all incarnations.'' The incarnation is described in the Bhagavad-gItA that whenever there are discrepancies in the prosecution of religiosities and there is a prominence of impious activities, at that time the Lord incarnates, or descends on this material world, for the protecting of the pious and annihilating the impious. That is the mission of incarnation. With every incarnation you'll find two things. Lord KRSNa, He's so beautiful, so kind, but He is also very dangerous to the demons. The demons were seeing Him as a thunderbolt and the gopIs were seeing Him as the most beautiful cupid. It is also stated in the Bhagavad-gItA, ye yathA mAM prapadyante. The God is realized in proportion to one's freedom from the demoniac propensities.

 

In this age, the last incarnation, Kalki, will simply kill. He will come long after. But here Lord Caitanya, His mission is not killing, simply favoring. That is the specific characteristic of Lord Caitanya. Because in this age, of course, there is very much prominence of irreligiosity. But if Lord Caitanya wanted to kill them, then there would be no question of their salvation. Anyone of course, who is killed by the incarnation also gets salvation. But not to the spiritual planets, they merge into the Brahman effulgence as the impersonalists desire. In other words, the impersonalist's goal of salvation is as good as the goal of salvation for the enemies of God. That is not a very difficult job. So Lord Caitanya is very merciful because He is embracing everyone by bestowing love of KRSNa. RUpa GosvAmI has described Lord Caitanya as the most munificent of all the incarnations because He is giving KRSNa to everyone, without any qualifications. So Locana dAsa ThAkura says that parama koruNa, pahU dui jana, nitAi gauracandra, that They are the essence of all incarnations. Kevala Ananda-kanda. And Their preaching process is very pleasing. Caitanya MahAprabhu recommends "You chant Hare KRSNa, dance nicely, and when you feel tired, just take rest and eat KRSNa prasAdam." So His formula is very pleasing. Kevala Ananda-kanda. While He was present in JagannAtha PurI, every day in the evening, the chanting and dancing continued. And after the dancing was finished, He used to distribute prasAdam of JagannAtha sumptuously. So many thousands of people used to assemble every night. So this movement is simply transcendentally pleasing. Kevala Ananda-kanda.

 

Then he recommends, bhajo bhajo bhAi, caitanya nitAi. "My dear brother, just try to worship these two Lords, Caitanya and NityAnanda," sudRDha vizvAsa kori', "with faith and conviction." One should have faith in the words of Lord Caitanya. Lord Caitanya says that "Go on chanting. Simply by chanting, one will get all perfection of life." So this is a fact. Unless we take to chanting, we cannot realize it, but those who are chanting, they are realizing that they're getting all the desired perfection of life very quickly. So we should chant this mantra with faith and conviction. But he says, the only qualification required in this connection is, viSaya chADiyA, se rase majiyA, mukhe bolo hari hari. We have to chant with faith and conviction and at the same time we should take care to guard against sense enjoyment. ViSaya chADiyA, viSaya means sense enjoyment. And chADiyA means give up. One should give up sense enjoyment. Of course, in this materialistic life we have got our senses and we are practiced to use them. We cannot stop that. But there is no question of stopping, but they should be regulated. Just like we want to eat. ViSaya means eating, sleeping, mating, and defending. So these things are not forbidden altogether. But they're regulated just to make it favorable for executing my KRSNa consciousness. Just like eating, we should not eat just to satisfy the taste. We should eat only just to keep ourself fit for executing KRSNa consciousness. Eating is not stopped, but it is regulated favorably. Similarly, mating. Mating is also not stopped. But the regulative principle is that you should marry and you should have sex life only for begetting KRSNa conscious children. Otherwise don't do it. So everything is regulated. There is also no question of stopping defense. Arjuna was fighting, defending, under the order of KRSNa. So everything is there. Nothing is stopped. It is simply adjusted for executing our KRSNa consciousness favorably. ViSaya chADiyA. We should not accept these viSaya, these four principles of bodily demands, namely eating, sleeping, mating, and defending, for sense gratification. No. The politicians, they're fighting for sense gratification. They do not look after the welfare of the people. They fight for their political aggrandizement. That kind of fighting is forbidden. But when fight is necessity for defending people, that fighting should be taken. So we have to give up this principle of sense gratification, or sense gratificatory process.

 

Dekho dekho bhAi tri-bhuvane nAi. Then he says, "Just see, there is nobody else more merciful.'' Pazu pAkhI jhure, pASANa vidare. By His mercy even the birds and beasts are maintained. Actually, when Caitanya MahAprabhu passed through the forest known as JhArikhaNDa in central India, He was only accompanied by his personal attendant, and while passing through the forest, He touched one tiger. The tiger was sleeping, and answered roaring. Caitanya MahAprabhu's attendant thought, "Now we are finished.'' But Caitanya MahAprabhu asked the tiger, "Why you are sleeping? Just stand up. Chant Hare KRSNa.'' And the tiger began to dance. So this actually happened. When Caitanya MahAprabhu preached this Hare KRSNa movement, the tigers, the deer, everyone joined. We are not so powerful of course. But it is possible, at least we have seen, that the dogs are dancing in saGkIrtana. It is possible, but we may not attempt such a great risk. But Caitanya MahAprabhu could induce the tigers to dance, we can at least induce every human being to dance. This is such a nice movement.

 

So pazu pAkhI jhure, pASANa vidare. PASANa means stone. So even the stone-hearted man also melts by chanting Hare KRSNa. That we have seen and experienced. PASANa vidare, zuni' jAra guNa-gAthA. Simply by hearing the transcendental pastimes and characteristics of Lord Caitanya, even the stone-hearted men also melt. There were many instances, JagAi MAdhAi. Many fallen souls, they became elevated to the highest spiritual platform. Then Locana dAsa ThAkura says that viSaya majiyA, rohili poriyA. "Unfortunately I am so much entrapped in the demands of these bodily senses, that I have forgotten the lotus feet of Caitanya MahAprabhu.'' ViSaya majiyA, rohili poriyA, se pade nahilo Aza. "I could not fulfill the desire to be attached to the lotus feet of Lord Caitanya.'' Why is it so? So he's lamenting that Apana karama, bhuJjAye zamana, that "I am suffering the sequence of my past misdeeds, because of that I could not be attracted by the KRSNa consciousness movement. It is a punishment on me by YamarAja, the superintendent of death.'' Actually, this KRSNa consciousness movement, saGkIrtana movement, is so nice and attractive, that every unsophisticated person shall be attracted. But if one is not attracted, it is to be understood that he is being punished by the laws of the superintendent of death. Anyway, if we stick to this principle of chanting, then even YamarAja, the superintendent of death, will also fail to punish us. That is the verdict of Brahma-saMhitA. Brahma-saMhitA says, one who takes to this devotional life, his reactions of past deeds are adjusted immediately. So every one of us should take part in this KRSNa consciousness movement by chanting Hare KRSNa Hare KRSNa KRSNa KRSNa Hare Hare, Hare RAma Hare RAma RAma RAma Hare Hare. (end)

 

 

 

<center>dekho ore bhAi, tri-bhuvane nAi

emona doyAla dAtA

pazu pAkhI jhure, pASANa vidare

zuni' jAra guNa-gAthA

 

My dear brother, just try and examine this. Within the three worlds there is no one like Lord Caitanya or Lord NityAnanda. Their merciful qualities are so great that upon hearing them even birds and beasts cry and stones melt.

</center>PahU dui jana. PahU means prabhu. The shortcut is pahU. Prabhu, lord, or master. So these two prabhus, Caitanya MahAprabhu and NityAnanda Prabhu, Caitanya MahAprabhu is addressed as MahAprabhu, MahA-puruSa. And the others, they are addressed as prabhu. So these two prabhus, NityAnanda Prabhu and Caitanya MahAprabhu, are very merciful, parama koruNa. Parama koruNa means extremely merciful. Extremely merciful because KRSNa is also merciful, but because He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His original feature. Caitanya MahAprabhu is also KRSNa, but He is acting as devotee. He is not acting as KRSNa. He is acting as devotee of KRSNa.

 

namo mahA-vadAnyAya

kRSNa-prema-pradAya te

kRSNAya kRSNa-caitanya-

nAmne gaura-tviSe namaH

 

He is KRSNa, but at present He has assumed the name of KRSNa-caitanya. SArvabhauma BhaTTAcArya also appreciated Caitanya MahAprabhu. He wrote one hundred verses about Caitanya MahAprabhu, but Caitanya MahAprabhu, just to teach us, destroyed the zlokas, "Oh, it is praising Me too much." So some of the zlokas were saved. Two of them are mentioned in the Caitanya-caritAmRta. So one of the zloka verse, is

 

vairAgya-vidyA-nija-bhakti-yoga-

zikSArtham ekaH puruSaH purANaH

zrI-kRSNa-caitanya-zarIra-dhArI

kRpAmbudhir yas tam ahaM prapadye

 

SArvabhauma BhaTTAcArya is offering his obeisances to Lord Caitanya MahAprabhu, speaking like this, that "You are the same original person, KRSNa. But You have now assumed the form of KRSNa Caitanya just to teach vairAgya-vidyA-nija-bhakti-yogam. You have come to teach the mass of people the art of becoming detached from this material world.'' VairAgya-vidyA. VairAgya. RAgya means attachment and virAga means detachment. So we fallen conditioned souls are very much attached to these material bodies, and consequently this material world. This is the disease. This is called bhava-roga, or material disease, to become attached to this body. "I am Indian,'' "I am American,'' "I am white,'' "I am black''--I identify with this body because we are very much attached to this body. But if we study very deeply, "Why I am attached to this body?'' Suppose if there is some danger, and immediately a warning, that this roof is going to fall down, we shall immediately take care of our own body, not of our Godbrothers. Because we are very much attached to this body. This is our first business, how to save this body. Now, the next question is "Why you are so much anxious to save this body?'' What will be the answer? Why one is so much attached to this body? The answer is that because I, the real I, I am within this body, therefore am I anxious to save it. Then why are you anxious to save the individual soul? The answer will is that because I am part and parcel of KRSNa. So ultimately we want to love KRSNa, but because we are on a forgetful platform, someone is trying to save his body, someone is trying to save his bodily relationship. Therefore in so many ways we have become implicated with this material atmosphere.

 

SrI Caitanya MahAprabhu came to teach us how to become detached to this material body. That is vairAgya-vidyA. VidyA means vairAgya-vidyA. VidyA does not mean to become more and more attached to this material world. That is avidyA, illusion, because I will not be able to save this body. This body will change. I will be annihilated. But still, I am very much anxious for this body. This is called illusion or ignorance or avidyA. So Caitanya MahAprabhu came to teach us vairAgya-vidyA, how to become detached. He personally showed by His life's example, He was a very learned scholar in NavadvIpa. His name was NimAi PaNDita, and He was also very influential. He was so influential that simply by His calling, 100,000 people joined Him to partake in a civil disobedience movement, disobeying the order of the Magistrate that "You cannot perform kIrtana." So Caitanya MahAprabhu immediately organized about one lakh of people and went on to perform at the house of the Magistrate. The civil disobedience movement was inaugurated by Mahatma Gandhi in India against the British government. But five hundred years before, Caitanya MahAprabhu started this civil disobedience movement against the order of the Kazi. He was so popular. He was a very learned scholar, He was a young man, twenty, twenty-two years, but He was also so popular that He could call 100,000 people at once to start this civil disobedience.

 

His other name is Gaurasundara, a very beautiful boy, and NimAi PaNDita, a very learned scholar. Nobody could defeat Him. He was very influential and born in a very high-grade brAhmaNa family. His father, His grandfather, were very, very learned scholars. So in every way He was very well situated, although the brAhmaNas are not very rich. They do not care for money. They are interested in knowledge, brahma-jJAna, and if one knows Brahman, then he is brAhmaNa. Brahma jAnAtIti brAhmaNaH: "BrAhmaNa means one who knows the Absolute Truth." That is brahma-jJAna. This human life is meant for that purpose, athAto brahma-jijJAsA. Everyone should be interested to inquire about Brahman, the Absolute Truth. At least, a class of those men must be there in the society. That is the brain of the society, brAhmaNa. Just like you have got a brain in your body. If the brain is absent, if the brain has gone mad, then your whole body is useless. That is the position at the present moment. There is no brain in this society. All zUdras, no brAhmaNas. Because nobody is interested in the Absolute Truth.

 

Everyone is interested in on how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex and how to defend. That is going on, nationwide, worldwide. Therefore our KRSNa consciousness movement is interested to make a section of the people brAhmaNa, brain. They can guide. Not that everyone requires to be brAhmaNa; that is not possible. Unless one is very intelligent, he cannot become brAhmaNa. BrAhmaNa means the most intellectual class of society. That is brAhmaNa. Satya zamaH damaH titikSa ArjavaH, jJAnaM vijJAnam AstikyaM brahma-karma svabhAva-jam. These are the brAhmaNa's qualifications. He must be truthful, so much so, that he will not keep any secrets even from his enemies. That is called truthfulness. And zamaH. SamaH means controlling the senses. SamaH means controlling the mind. The mind is our enemy; the mind is our friend. If we can control the mind, then the mind acts as a very good friend. And if we do not control the mind, then he will act as an enemy. Therefore the yoga system means controlling the mind and controlling the senses, so they act as my friend. Otherwise they will act as my enemy. KAma krodha lobha moha.

 

So there is a necessity for a class of men who will act as the brain of society. That is called brAhmaNa. That is real human society, where there are four classes of men: one acting as brain, one acting as arms or armies or protection, one acting as belly, or the food digesting machine. Unless you eat and digest food, how will your body be maintained? So everything is very scientifically designed in Vedic civilization. In the Kali-yuga there is a scarcity of brAhmaNas. BrAhmaNa is vairAgya. A brAhmaNa is not interested with pounds, shilling, pence, "Get money and enjoy." That is not the brAhmaNa's business. What us enjoying? That is illusion. You cannot enjoy because you are conditioned by the stringent laws of nature, and where is enjoyment? There is no enjoyment. But they are thinking, "I am enjoying." This is called illusion or mAyA. There cannot be any enjoyment. When you are conditioned under the stringent laws of nature, you are not free. You do not like to die. You are forced to die. You must die. You cannot say, "No, I will not die." No, that is not possible. So where is your freedom? But we are declaring, "Now we are independent." This is all illusion.

 

So Caitanya MahAprabhu appeared to save us from all these illusions. That is Caitanya MahAprabhu. Caitanya means living, not dead. If we have no spiritual consciousness, if we have not KRSNa's consciousness, then we are dead. What is this body? This body is dead. Alive or dead, so-called dead, it is already dead because it is matter. But because there is a spirit soul present, the body is moving. The same example: the motor car, what is this? A lump of matter, some iron, some other metals or some rubbers and combination. And so long the driver is there--it is moving--it is important so long it is moving. And as soon as the movement stops, you throw it away. That is a very good experience in your country. So many useless motor cars are heaped together. So similarly, brAhmaNa means that one must know who the driver of this body is, brahma-jJAna. So at the present moment nobody knows who is driving this body. So therefore all of them are zUdras, fourth-class men. There is no first-class man. But in the human society there must be four classes of men: first class, second class, third class and the fourth class which is also required for assisting the higher, third class. Everything is very nicely described in the Bhagavad-gItA, and Bhagavad-gItA was taught by KRSNa Himself. But people could not follow Him, they misunderstood Him. Therefore KRSNa came again as KRSNa-caitanya to teach personally the philosophy of KRSNa.

 

Caitanya MahAprabhu did not teach anything else than what was taught by KRSNa. Therefore, Sarvabhauma BhaTTAcArya said, vairAgya-vidyA-nija-bhakti-yogaM zikSArtham, purANah puruSaH. That Supreme Personality of Godhead... VairAgya-vidyA-nija-bhakti-yogaM zikSArtham ekaH purANaH puruSaH, zrI-kRSNa-caitanya-zarIra-dhArI: "Now You have assumed the form of SrI KRSNa-caitanya, but You are KRSNa.'' RUpa GosvAmI said. We have to follow the mahAjanas, great personalities, authorities. MahAjano yena gataH sa panthAH. We cannot manufacture a way of life. We have to follow the footprints of mahAjana, great personality. That is the way. Here, at the present moment, everyone is speculating. What is the use of speculation? You are imperfect. Your senses are imperfect. Whatever you establish, because you have established by imperfect senses, they are all imperfect. Therefore, that suffering, there is no solution. So speculative method will not help us. So Caitanya MahAprabhu's teaching is, it is not as He had manufactured something. He is also following. He quoted one verse from the prayers of Lord BrahmA.

 

jJAne prayAsam udapAsya namanta eva

(jIvanti) san-mukharitAM bhavadIya-vArtAm

sthAne sthitAH zruti-gatAM tanu-vAG-manobhir

ye prAyazo 'jita jito 'py asi tais tri-lokyAm

 

This is a quotation from SrImad-BhAgavatam in BrahmA's prayer to KRSNa. The purport is that you should give up this bad habit of speculation. JJAne prayAsam. PrayAsam means endeavor: "I shall get this knowledge by speculating." This is called jJAna-prayAsam, endeavoring uselessly for knowledge. So udapAsya. You give it up. JJAne prayAsam udapAsya namanta. Just become submissive. Don't think yourself very learned. Because if the senses are imperfect, how you can be learned? Whatever you see, that is imperfect. Just like we see the sun every day, with these eyes. And what do we see? It appears just like a disc. But is it a disc? It is fourteen hundred times bigger than this earth. So what is the value of your seeing? You cannot even see what is behind the wall. Still, you are proud of your seeing power--"Can you show me? Can you show me God?" And what power you have got to see? That he does not consider. He thinks, "I have got seeing power." Similarly, you study every sense--they are all imperfect, blunt. So any knowledge you acquire by gymnastic of the senses--useless. This is Caitanya MahAprabhu's teaching. Not just Caitanya MahAprabhu's, it is also the BhAgavata's teachings as well. So we have to give up this nonsense idea, that "I can attain to perfect knowledge by speculation, manodharma, mental gymnastic." This will not help us.

 

So jJAne prayAsam udapAsya namanta eva. Just become submissive. And how to submit? You must submit to a perfect person. Otherwise why should you submit? Tad-vijJAnArthaM sa gurum eva abhigacchet, samit-pANiH zrotriyaM brahma-niSTham. So BhagavAn SrI KRSNa also says,

 

tad viddhi praNipAtena

paripraznena sevayA

upadekSyanti tad jJAnaM

jJAninaH tattva-darzinaH

 

Tattva-darzI, one who has seen things as they are. Go there and take knowledge from him, not from one who is speculating. This is the Vedic process. Therefore it is called zruti. SravaNam. SravaNaM kIrtanaM viSNoH. SravaNam means hearing, kIrtanam means glorifying. Of whom? About ViSNu, not for anything else. So SrI Caitanya MahAprabhu approved this point. When He was talking with SrI RAmAnanda RAya, RAmAnanda RAya suggested various methods of self-realization. So SrI Caitanya MahAprabhu did not reject them. He said, "Yes, that is also nice, but go farther still." So in this way, when RAmAnanda RAya quoted this verse from SrImad-BhAgavatam, jJAne prayAsam udapAsya, He said... No, in the beginning He had, eho bAhya, Age kaha: "This process is not very important; it is external. If you know better than this, say." So in this way, after many rejections, when RAmAnanda RAya came to this version, jJAne prayAsam udapAsya, Caitanya MahAprabhu did not say that it was useless. Eho haya: "Yes, it is nice." Eho haya: "It can be accepted." That is the beginning, that don't try to speculate. Just become humble and meek and hear from the realized soul. Namanta. JJAne prayAsam udapAsya namanta eva. Just become submissive. Do not think that you know everything. That is your illusion, mAyA. Because you cannot know everything. You can or may know something. But is not possible that you know everything.

 

You cannot know everything perfectly simply by speculating or handling your imperfect senses. San-mukharitAM bhavadIya-vArtAm. You hear from the realized soul. So hear from KRSNa. He is perfect. And sthAne sthitAH. To hear about KRSNa, you do not require to change your position. SthAne sthitAH. You are a medical man? That's all right. Remain a medical man. You are a scientist? That's all right. You are a lawyer? That's all right. You are a fool? That's all right. (laughter) Because everyone is a fool, but they are divided by mental concoction that "Here is a fool; here is a learned.'' Because the learned is also a fool. But by mental concoction, he is recognized as intelligent. Same mental concoction. Dvaite' bhadrAbhadra sakali samana. Caitanya-caritAmRta kar said that "In the material world, this is good; and this is bad--this is all mental speculation.'' Dvaite' bhadrAbhadra sakali samana, ei bhAla, ei manda', saba manodharma: "That division, ‘This is good; this is bad,' it is mental speculation.'' It has no value. So this mental speculation will not help us. And therefore sthAne sthitAH. You remain in your position. It doesn't matter, good or bad. The mental speculator's verdict that "This is good; this is bad. This is intelligent; this is foolish,'' they are all mental speculations. That will not help.

 

So you remain in your position. Either good or bad, it doesn't matter. But you do one thing. SthAne sthitAH zruti-gatAM tanu-vAG-manobhiH. You use your ears. These ears are bestowed upon everyone, either fool or learned. So use that ear, sthAne sthitAH zruti-gatAM tanu-vAG-manobhiH, and hear attentively, and mold your life as you hear from the realized soul. SthAne sthitAH zruti-gatAM tanu-vAG-mano. One who remains like this, although he is an imperfect fool, whatever he may be, he can conquer the ajita. Ajita means God. Nobody can conquer Him, but a devotee who sincerely hears about Him from the realized soul, he can conquer even Ajita, KRSNa. Just like the gopIs. The gopIs were women and not very high class woman, cowherd's men, in the village, not in town, very educated, high society, brAhmaNa, kSatriya, no. They all belonged to the vaizya class. And they were woman, not Vedantists, not scholars. But they conquered KRSNa. How? They heard about KRSNa, and they became lovers of KRSNa. That is required. So that is the real qualification. Caitanya MahAprabhu, He was so strict about womanly association. Still, He recommended, ramyA kAcid upAsanA vrajavadhU-vargabhir yA kalpitA: "There is no better type of worshiping KRSNa than the system which vraja-vadhU, the gopIs, adopted to love KRSNa. That is first-class.'' That is the recommendation of Vedic zAstra. Sa vai puMsAM paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokSaje. First-class religion means to understand God. That is the sum and substance.

 

The process may be different according to country, men. Just like we worship the Deity in the temple. This is also bhakti. And the Christians go to the church and offer prayers to God. That is also bhakti. That is also bhakti. Nine items of bhakti. SravaNaM kIrtanaM viSNoH smaraNaM pAda-sevanam, arcanaM vandanaM dAsyam. Vandanam is offering prayers. So they go to the church or go to the mosque, they offer prayers to the Supreme. That is also bhakti. There is no question of what type of religion you are following. That doesn't matter. You follow anything, whatever suits you. But the result should be that, You worship with the result on how to love God. That should be the result. If you have come to that platform, how to love God, becoming mad after God, as Caitanya MahAprabhu...

 

yugAyitaM nimeSeNa

cakSuSA prAvRSAyitam

zUnyAyitaM jagat sarvaM

govinda-viraheNa me

 

Govinda-viraheNa: "Being separated from Govinda, God, my life is vacant." This is required. It doesn't matter whether you follow Christianity or Hinduism or Muslimism. Whether you are feeling vacancy, everything is vacant without KRSNa, without God--that is the test. YugAyitaM nimeSeNa. Every moment... Because one who is feeling separation from the Lord, he is feeling also, "When shall I see Him?" So this anxiety, Caitanya MahAprabhu, yugAyitaM nimeSeNa: "A moment is seeming to Me a millenium, hundreds and millions of years' separation." That is love. Of course, in the material world, this love is not possible. There is no love in the material world. It is all lust. So love means loving God. That is love. So Caitanya MahAprabhu is teaching this, yugAyitaM nimeSeNa cakSuSA prAvRSAyitam: "I am feeling one moment as a millenium, being separated from KRSNa. And torrents of tears are coming just like torrents of rain.'' And zUnyAyitaM jagat sarvam: "And the whole world is seeming vacant to Me,'' govinda-viraheNa me, "being separated from Govinda.'' This is love. So it doesn't matter what religious system you are following, but the result should be this, that you should be mad after God. That is the test. Sa vai puMsAM paro... That is first-class religion, yato bhaktir adhokSaje, to love. Bhakti means love, rendering service. AdhokSaje. AdhokSaje means beyond the speculation of the mind, mental exercise, bodily exercise. AdhokSaja. AdhakRta akSaja jJAnam.

 

So Caitanya MahAprabhu taught this. For the benefit of the whole world, He took sannyAsa. He gave up His very opulent position in NavadvIpa, as I have already told you, He was a very learned scholar, had a very beautiful body, a very beautiful wife, a very affectionate mother, and good popularity. There was no scarcity. He was God Himself. Why would there be any scarcity? There is no question. But in spite of all that, He took sannyAsa for the benefit of the whole world. So worship Caitanya MahAprabhu. Parama koruNa, pahU dui jana, Gaura-NitAi are very, very merciful, and a little bit of service will enhance your devotional service to a larger scale.

 

 

 

<center>saMsAre majiyA, rohili poriyA

se pade nahilo Aza

Apana karama, bhuJjAye zamana,

kahoye locana-dAsa

 

But Locana dAsa regrets that I am entrapped by sense gratification. Since I have no attraction for the lotus feet of Lord Caitanya and Lord NityAnanda, then YamarAja, the superintendent of death, is punishing me by not allowing me to be attracted by this movement.

</center>This is a song by Locana dAsa ThAkura. PahU means "Lord," and dui jana means "two." Locana dAsa ThAkura declares that the two Lords, NitAi-Gauracandra–Lord NitAi and Lord Caitanya–are very merciful (parama koruNa). Saba avatAra-sAra zIromaNi. AvatAra means "incarnation," and saba means "all." They are the essence of all incarnations. The specific significance of these incarnations is that prosecuting Their way of self-realization is simply joyful (kevala Ananda-kanda), for They introduced chanting and dancing. There are many incarnations, like Lord RAma and even KRSNa, who taught Bhagavad-gItA, which requires knowledge and understanding. But Lord Caitanya and NityAnanda introduced a process that is simply joyful–simply chant and dance. Therefore, Locana dAsa requests everyone, bhajo bhajo bhAi, caitanya-nitAi: "My dear brother, I request that you just worship Lord Caitanya and NityAnanda with firm conviction and faith." Don't think that this chanting and dancing will not lead to the desired goal. It will. It is the assurance of Lord Caitanya MahAprabhu that one will get all perfection by this process. Therefore one must chant with firm faith and conviction (bizwAsa kori').

 

But what is the process? The process is viSaya chAriyA, se rase majiyA. If one wants to be KRSNa conscious by this process, one has to give up his engagement in sense gratification. That is the only restriction. If one gives up sense gratification, it is sure that he will reach the desired goal. Mukhe bolo hari hari: one simply has to chant, "Hare KRSNa! Hari Hari!" without any motive of sense gratification.

 

Dekho ore bhAi, tri-bhuvane nAi. Locana dAsa ThAkura says, "My dear brother, you just try and examine this. Within the three worlds there is no one like Lord Caitanya or Lord NityAnanda, because Their merciful qualities are so great that They make even birds and beasts cry, what to speak of human beings." Actually, when Lord Caitanya passed through the forest known as JharikhaNDa, the tigers, elephants, snakes, deer, and all other animals joined Him in chanting Hare KRSNa. It is so nice that anyone can join. Even the animals can join, what to speak of human beings. Of course, it is not possible for ordinary men to induce animals to chant, but if Caitanya MahAprabhu could inspire animals to chant, at least we can encourage human beings to adopt this path of Hare KRSNa mantra chanting. It is so nice that even the most stonehearted man will be melted. PASANa means "stone." It is so nice that even stone will melt.

 

But Locana dAsa ThAkura regrets that he is entrapped by sense gratification. He addresses himself, "My dear mind, you are entrapped in this sense gratification process, and you have no attraction for chanting Hare KRSNa. Since you have no attraction for the lotus feet of Lord Caitanya and Lord NityAnanda, what can I say? I can simply think of my misfortune. YamarAja, the superintendent of death, is punishing me by not allowing me to be attracted by this movement."

 

 

[All purports presented here are the opinions of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, and necessarly the opinions of this poster.]

[anadi]

<u1:p></u1:p><!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Dear qHari, dandavat pranam.

 

As I presented some qualifications for getting Krishna's mercy:

 

rāga-dveṣa-vimuktais tuviṣayān indriyaiś caran |

<u1:p></u1:p>ātma-vaśyair vidheyātmā prasādamadhigacchati ||

you replied:

Perhaps this verse describes the prerequisites, not the cause.

...for if guru is not Krsna's mercy then I don't know what is.

But

These statements of yours root in a logical mistake.

The issue was/ is not that the mercy needs a cause,

But getting mercy needs a cause. The guru is there, and shastra explains that he is Krishna kripa, but not everybody gets guru, not everybody gets this Krishna kripa.

Only the ones that in a certain life attained that qualification.

And Krishna does not force sukriti on anyone. And in this connection He says that He doesn't favor anyone, He is equal to all, up to the point, one starst to worship Him.

The mercy is always there, but <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> does not force mercy on somebody.

So one must qualify to get His mercy. Not that the mercy would be not available, but you must have some sukriti, which qualifies one to look for the mercy, to pray for the mercy.

 

The more you qualify, the more mercy you can get, this is sadhana bhakti.

In this connection came into my mind the story of the blind baba of the Madana Tera , and the best sadhana.

One might wonder why, if Radharani is really so kind, she kept Baba weeping for 40 years? Could she not appear before him earlier? She could. But could Baba really see Her then? (He was not qualified)

She is not made of flesh and bones, which our eyes can see. She is made of love, She is Love personified. In order to see Her, one must have the eyes of love. Love does not develop in a heart, which is impure. The heart has to be purified by sadhana. The best sadhana is weeping in separation. The tears that flow in remembrance of Radha and <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> wash away all sins and offences (aparadhas), and the fire of separation that burns in the heart consumes the wild growth of all sorts of worldly desires. It is then that the ground is prepared for the seed of love to sprout and grow. When the seed grows and blossoms. Radha and <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> cannot remain indifferent. They are automatically drawn to it by its fragrance.

[theist]

 

The more you qualify, the more mercy you can get, this is sadhana bhakti.

 

Even this statement can be heard to prove our point that mercy is not earned it is causeless.

 

I see sadhana as a means of making ourselves proper receptacles to receive more of the mercy that is already offered and not a way of earning it.

 

This is also shown by the fact that some people are very expert at excecuting the forms of sadhana but who do not progress past that stage. If sadhana was the cause of their receiving mercy as in spiritual realization why are some people not progressing automatically a the same rate as their practice improves and would indicate?

 

It is an erroneous idea that one can buy the mercy of the Lord by offering money, building temples, pious deeds or even offering nice devotional prayers.

 

We can pray but the Lord remains free to respond or not as He sees fit.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

Sriman Anadi wrote,

 

 

These statements of yours root in a logical mistake.<?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /><O:P></O:P>

The issue was/ is not that the mercy needs a cause, <O:P></O:P>

But getting mercy needs a cause. The guru is there, and shastra explains that he is Krishna kripa, but not everybody gets guru, not everybody gets this Krishna kripa.

Only the ones that in a certain life attained that qualification.

And Krishna does not force sukriti on anyone. And in this connection He says that He doesn't favor anyone, He is equal to all, up to the point, one starst to worship Him.<O:P></O:P>

<O:P></O:P>

The mercy is always there, but <?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = ST1 /><ST1:PLACE>Krishna</ST1:PLACE> does not force mercy on somebody.

So one must qualify to get His mercy. Not that the mercy would be not available, but you must have some sukriti, which qualifies one to look for the mercy, to pray for the mercy.<O:P></O:P><O:P></O:P>

 

The more you qualify, the more mercy you can get, this is sadhana bhakti.

 

<O:P></O:P>

The point where you say one must have some sukriti, which qualifies one to look for the mercy, to pray for the mercy, is the part where you deny the cause of the Sukriti.

 

The Sukriti comes unbidden, and is thus the first manifestation of Sri Krsna's mercy in our lives, and we were not qualified in any way to receive it except to be a lost bewildered part and parcel of Sri Krsna.

 

It is forced on us, while our free will remains in tact. Sorry, but if you really are into this philosophy you might as well get used to its ultimately inconceiveable nature. Because what I just said IS definitive, yet can still be expanded upon and glorified, just not diminished by calling some integral aspect of that comprehensive truth, the whole and correct truth itself.

 

Hare Krsna

 

 

 

<O:P></O:P>

[anadi]

Dear theist dandavat pranam,

 

I said:

The more you qualify, the more mercy you can get, this is sadhana bhakti.

 

You replied:

Even this statement can be heard to prove our point that mercy is not earned it is causeless.

 

But the point was/ is not the mercy is not available, that is not always there, but that not everybody is able to receive it.

To be able to receive it one has to qualify.

The more you qualify, the more mercy you can get, this is sadhana bhakti.

[theist]

 

Sriman Anadi wrote,

 

 

<o>></o>>

The point where you say one must have some sukriti, which qualifies one to look for the mercy, to pray for the mercy, is the part where you deny the cause of the Sukriti.

 

The Sukriti comes unbidden, and is thus the first manifestation of Sri Krsna's mercy in our lives, and we were not qualified in any way to receive it except to be a lost bewildered part and parcel of Sri Krsna.

 

It is forced on us, while our free will remains in tact. Sorry, but if you really are into this philosophy you might as well get used to its ultimately inconceiveable nature. Because what I just said IS definitive, yet can still be expanded upon and glorified, just not diminished by calling some integral aspect of that comprehensive truth, the whole and correct truth itself.

 

Hare Krsna

 

 

 

<o>></o>>

[gHari]

One is qualified for justice.

 

Mercy means getting that for which you are not qualified, or maybe not getting what you really deserve.

 

Otherwise, why call it mercy?

 

Ask guru.

[anadi]

Dear Bhakta Devarsi dandavat pranam

you said:

 

The point where you say one must have some sukriti, which qualifies one to look for the mercy, to pray for the mercy, is the part where you deny the cause of the Sukriti.

The Sukriti comes unbidden, and is thus the first manifestation of Sri Krsna's mercy in our lives, and we were not qualified in any way to receive it

 

OK, we get back to ajJata sukRti.

<o></o>I didn't say one need qualification for ajJata sukRti, please read the previous posts.

 

you also said:

 

It (mercy) is forced on us, while our free will remains intact.

 

Krishna don't use to force nothing on nobody, one can follow His rules or not, and accordingly suffer or be happy.

By our free will we came here, in the material world, and by our free will (hampered by the reactions of previous deeds) we desire to get a certain association, that might be hepful to get us out of here.

In all cases Krishna made the required arrangements, but he didn't force someone to get something.

[brajeshwara das]

 

One is qualified for justice.

 

Mercy means getting that for which you are not qualified, or maybe not getting what you really deserve.

 

Otherwise, why call it mercy?

 

Ask guru.

 

[anadi]

Dear Bhakta Devarsi dandavat pranam

you said:

The point where you say one must have some sukriti, which qualifies one to look for the mercy, to pray for the mercy, is the part where you deny the cause of the Sukriti.

But

This has been explained in the previous posts.

 

Krishna do not push anybody to make sukriti:

 

1. Associate with the holy places

<u1:p></u1:p>2. Associate with the holy days

<u1:p></u1:p>3. Associate with bhakti paraphernalia (Tulasi, <st1:city u2:st="on"><st1:place u2:st="on">prasadam, Bhagavatam hearing, Holy Name hearing, </st1:place></st1:city><st1:city><st1:place>Temple</st1:place></st1:city> of the Lord)

<u1:p></u1:p>4. Associate with persons engaged in acts of divine devotion.

His mercy is there, available but Krishna do not push anybody to take it.

[anadi]

 

...

Mercy means getting that for which you are not qualified, or maybe not getting what you really deserve.

Otherwise, why call it mercy?

Dear qHari, dandavat pranam

 

In the material world we are sufferng and

Krishna's mercy means Krishna wants to give you something that makes you really happy... but you are not able to get it.

So Krishna explains how one can qualify, so that one can be able to get it.

You must qualify so that you can be able to receive it.

[brajeshwara das]

ok ananda, you go ahead and climb that staircase, it's raining mercy over here. Sure, we need to learn to hold out our hands, make a cup and receive it as best we can, but there is no doubt it is falling on our heads. There is no arguing that we all need to become proper receivers, but mercy doesn't seek a qualification. I think it is the Bible that says the sun rises on saint and sinner alike. Jagai and Madhai received the Lords mercy not by searching for it but insulting it. Go figure, causeless mercy is causeless.

[gHari]

And for this twisting waste of obstinate semantics we are refuting the decided opinion of a great sage like AC Bhaktivedanta? Incredulous! We are indeed most unfortunate.

 

If we only got everything we deserved, then we ain't got squat. That is the bottom-line. Ahankara still has us in its death grip. If we think we've deserved all we've received and will receive, then our ingratitude, our greatness will soon swallow us up with false-pride.

[anadi]

 

And for this twisting waste of obstinate semantics we are refuting the decided opinion of a great sage like AC Bhaktivedanta? Incredulous! We are indeed most unfortunate.

If we only got everything we deserved, then we ain't got squat. .

Dear qHari, dandavat pranam,

I already answered this kind of statements.

 

if you like it or not, the Lord is not prejudiced.

He doesn't pick up somebody whimsically and give him sadhu sanga, if one is not qualified for it. Maybe one lifetime one has 2 seconds of it, or two splited ours.

He doesn't play dice in giving someone that association that brings sukriti. The Lord gives you food, but you have to chew it yourself.

The mercy is there, but you have to pick it up yourself, knowingly or not.

 

You also said:

That is the bottom-line. Ahankara still has us in its death grip. If we think we've deserved all we've received and will receive, then our ingratitude, our greatness will soon swallow us up with false-pride

 

I also answered these kind of statements.

1.The mercy is there, if you don't want to take it, don't blame it to the Lord.

2. From the moment one starts to worship the Lord, one gets special treatment. The Lord chews for the devotee, and put it in the devotee's mouth, that means the Lord makes special arrangements for the devotee.

 

3. How can one be ungrateful to the Giver of Divine Love?

Only the ones that don't know His position.

 

4.qualifying to receive mercy, does not make you the giver of mercy, you are the beggar. The more you qualifiy the more you realize, you are the beggar. Is not a question of deserving mercy or not. One should understand that one should qualify for it, if one wants to get it. The more one qualifies, the more one gets. This is sadhana bhakti, beginning with shraddha (adau shraddha, tato sadhu sanga, tato anartha nivriti syat...).

[Beggar]

 

...qualifying to receive mercy, does not make you the giver of mercy, you are the beggar. The more you qualifiy the more you realize, you are the beggar.

Shazam!?!?!?!?!!!

[gHari]

 

Dear qHari, dandavat pranam,

I already answered this kind of statements.

 

if you like it or not, the Lord is not prejudiced.

He doesn't pick up somebody whimsically and give him sadhu sanga, if one is not qualified for it. Maybe one lifetime one has 2 seconds of it, or two splited ours.

He doesn't play dice in giving someone that association that brings sukriti. The Lord gives you food, but you have to chew it yourself.

The mercy is there, but you have to pick it up yourself, knowingly or not.

 

You also said:

That is the bottom-line. Ahankara still has us in its death grip. If we think we've deserved all we've received and will receive, then our ingratitude, our greatness will soon swallow us up with false-pride

 

I also answered these kind of statements.

1.The mercy is there, if you don't want to take it, don't blame it to the Lord.

2. From the moment one starts to worship the Lord, one gets special treatment. The Lord chews for the devotee, and put it in the devotee's mouth, that means the Lord makes special arrangements for the devotee.

 

3. How can one be ungrateful to the Giver of Divine Love?

Only the ones that don't know His position.

 

4.qualifying to receive mercy, does not make you the giver of mercy, you are the beggar. The more you qualifiy the more you realize, you are the beggar. Is not a question of deserving mercy or not. One should understand that one should qualify for it, if one wants to get it. The more one qualifies, the more one gets. This is sadhana bhakti, beginning with shraddha (adau shraddha, tato sadhu sanga, tato anartha nivriti syat...).

Thus, you conclude that one does not get guru by the mercy of Krsna?

 

The beggar begs because he is not qualified, he does not deserve. The more one realizes, the more one sees that his cherished continued qualification is like the turning of a worm into a dog. Nothing more.

 

CC Madhya 24.205

 

<center>

kRSNa-kRpAdi-hetu haite sabAra udaya

kRSNa-guNAkRSTa haJA tAGhAre bhajaya

</center>

kRSNa-kRpA-Adi-hetu--the reason of KRSNa's mercy; haite--from; sabAra udaya--anyone becomes a devotee; kRSNa-guNa-AkRSTa haJA--being attracted by the transcendental qualities of KRSNa; tAGhAre--Him; bhajaya--worship.

"Everyone is eligible to receive KRSNa's mercy--including VyAsadeva, the four KumAras, Sukadeva GosvAmI, lowborn creatures, trees, plants and beasts. By KRSNa's mercy they are elevated and engaged in His service.

 

 

kRSNa-guNa-AkRSTa haJA Being attracted by the transcendental qualities of KRSNa (the ways and means of which you have generalized into four categories) causes sabAra udaya anyone to become His devotee and AGhAre bhajaya worship Him; Adi-hetu the reason for this is kRSNa-kRpA KRSNa's mercy. In smoother English: Through Krsna's mercy, anyone can be attracted to His transcendental qualities, become His devotee and worship Him.

 

zabde sukRti The word sukRti, kahe is to be understood as puNya pious activities hetu performed through kRSNa-kRpA the mercy of KRSNa.

 

 

This is sadhana bhakti, beginning with shraddha (adau shraddha, tato sadhu sanga, tato anartha nivriti syat...).

The logical question arises: "Whence comes sraddha"? It was insufficient attraction to Krsna that placed us in the material contamination. To get out we cure that disease by augmenting our attraction. We do that by associating with His transcendental qualities, drowning in His qualities and falling head-over-heels in love. But where is that first step in the right direction? How did the process start? Exhausting material desires as in the two birds in a tree? Causeless mercy? Chance? Perhaps it started the moment we landed, and it has all been Krsna's mercy from day one - what was needed to correct our apathy?

[Beggar]

Are you sure you all are not splitting hairs? Maybe, its an argument over semantics. Good quotes are being brought forth, but the attitudes behind it seem a little weird to me. I mean its not like somebody's going to come onto this thread and become ecstatic. Also any one who wants to beg must pay royalties to me.

[gHari]

Now we are all Beggars - but you knew it first, making you the most qualified, Beggar.

 

I think it may well be just words. I saw the word "bound" and read bogus. But it's not my job, and I can't figure out the rules, cursed with a logical mind.

 

 

This does have all the earmarks of another Fall/No-Fall mud-bath: were we ever qualified before first receiving mercy, or as it will be known to pundits in the 23rd century: QFMF, the eternal Qualified-First/Mercy-First debate, which became the greatest Gaudiya schism among the sport jugglers of the 21st century that split the Caitanya tree into 72 million branches, most notably the karma is mercy trunk, the it's all mercy trunk, the Krsna loves all jivas trunk, the who cares (aka crow and tal-fruit logic) trunk, the you exist therefore you're qualified trunk (aka 25:204), the lead a horse to water trunk, the what mercy? trunk, the what qualifications? trunk, the officiating mercy trunk, the Prabhupada said trunk, the BVNM said trunk, the Anadi trunk, the defunct gHari twig, the love gets love trunk, the use it or lose it trunk, the mercy is in the eye of the beholder trunk, the no-fall/no-mercy sahajyas, the fall/no-fall and qualify/mercy and all permutations thereof trunk, the Jesus said trunk, the Kalki Avatara twig, the Brahma's tapa trunk, the undecided trunk, the acintya and move on mega-trunk, the nitya-qualified trunk, the it's all good branch, the my responsibility alone trunk, the Krsna who? twig, the qualified? gimme a break trunk, the chicken and the egg trunk, the what ain't mercy trunk, the qualified-and-bound and qualified-and-free trunks, the come back my son trunk, the straighten-up my son trunk, the mind over mercy branch, the karma's over I love you trunk, and so on right down to a handfull of munis in the august Audarya creeper who still ride the fence.

[theist]

One thing for sure,hopefully all can agree with is we are better advised to approach the Lord seeking mercy and grace rather then coming before Him trying to display our list of pious credits as an entrance fee into His favor.

[raga]

Reading this discussion gives me headache.

 

Everyone should go home and read Madhurya-kadambini.

[brajeshwara das]

I used to be a Deadhead and we used to put one finger in the air and walk around looking for our 'miricle ticket' into the show. At the time it was an extremely mystical experience for me and it is the first place I met the devotees, had prasadam, and read about Krsna. Now I still have that one finger poking out of my bead bag looking for that 'miracle' to be allowed entrance into true service life. Funny how life is, huh?

[theist]

Grace is the basis of all our experiences. This may not be readily visible in the interim as we traverse through the experiences of the material world but from beggining to ending up at Krsna's lotus feet it's all grace. I say it's all grace because every hard knock we endure in the material field is meant to turn us to that adventual and glorious outcome.

 

I say beginning also because our very existence, our very being is a gift from the Lord. Did anyone here earn the right to exist before Krsna cause you?

 

The thought is absurd. We have so much to be thankful for.