bija Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 This does have all the earmarks of another Fall/No-Fall mud-bath: were we ever qualified before first receiving mercy, or as it will be known to pundits in the 23rd century: QFMF, the eternal Qualified-First/Mercy-First debate, which became the greatest Gaudiya schism among the sport jugglers of the 21st century that split the Caitanya tree into 72 million branches, most notably the karma is mercy trunk, the it's all mercy trunk, the Krsna loves all jivas trunk, the who cares (aka crow and tal-fruit logic) trunk, the you exist therefore you're qualified trunk (aka 25:204), the lead a horse to water trunk, the what mercy? trunk, the what qualifications? trunk, the officiating mercy trunk, the Prabhupada said trunk, the BVNM said trunk, the Anadi trunk, the defunct gHari twig, the love gets love trunk, the use it or lose it trunk, the mercy is in the eye of the beholder trunk, the no-fall/no-mercy sahajyas, the fall/no-fall and qualify/mercy and all permutations thereof trunk, the Jesus said trunk, the Kalki Avatara twig, the Brahma's tapa trunk, the undecided trunk, the acintya and move on mega-trunk, the nitya-qualified trunk, the it's all good branch, the my responsibility alone trunk, the Krsna who? twig, the qualified? gimme a break trunk, the chicken and the egg trunk, the what ain't mercy trunk, the qualified-and-bound and qualified-and-free trunks, the come back my son trunk, the straighten-up my son trunk, the mind over mercy branch, the karma's over I love you trunk, and so on right down to a handfull of munis in the august Audarya creeper who still ride the fence. quote by gHari That is a mighty big tree with alot of trunks and some crazy birds nesting in it. It is good the roots of it are pointing upwards...so we can check for any rot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadi Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 Dear qHari, dandavat pranam, yo said: Thus, you conclude that one does not get guru by the mercy of Krsna? Everything you get is by Krishna's mercy. So what is there special, when you say you get guru by Krishna's mercy. Special is the needed qualification so that you can get that mercy You get that mercy if you are qualified to get it. This mercy of Krishna is always there, but not everybody is qualified to get guru or ... a certain type of guru. You presented evidence form CC Madhya 24.205 for the fact that everybody is qualified to receive <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s mercy. "Everyone is eligible to receive KRSNa's mercy--including VyAsadeva, the four KumAras, Sukadeva GosvAmI, lowborn creatures, trees, plants and beasts. By KRSNa's mercy they are elevated and engaged in His service. But this is another inacurate translation of a verse. The verse does not speak of the eligibility, or the qualification of the jiva to attain krishna’s mercy, as in Bhagavad-gita 2.64. But tu one who has become free vimuktaiḥ (from) material attachments rāga, envy dveṣa , and has und control ātma-vaśyaiḥ the senses indriyaiḥ acted upon caran material sense objects viṣayān and follows regulated principles related to the soul vidheya-ātmā attains adhigacchati the mercy of the Lord prasādam The verse CC Madhya 24.205 says: All sabāra came into being udaya because hetu of <st1:place>Krishnas</st1:place> original mercy kṛṣṇa-kṛpā-ādi than haite being attracted ākṛṣṭa hañā by <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s qualities kṛṣṇa-guṇa, (they) worship bhajaya (Him).. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadi Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 Specail qualification to attain Radha Kunda In the 14 verse of Sri Sri Vilapa Kusumanjali Sri Raghunatha dasa prayed to Radha, that he may once see Her lotusfeet anointed with lac-dye, and in the verse 15 he prays for the actual service of these anointed lotusfeet, having become greedy for that service. “O lotus-eyed Radhe! Ever since I got to see Your lake (Radha Kunda I developed a liking for Your devotional service!” Sri Radhakunda is the limitlessly beautiful crownjewel of Vraja (vraja mukutamani), Priyaji’s sarasi (pond) which is most dear to those whose everything is the service of Sri Radhika`'s lotusfeet. kuṇḍera 'mādhurī' — yena rādhāra 'madhurimā' kuṇḍera 'mahimā' — yena rādhāra 'mahimā' "The attraction of Rādhā-kuṇḍa is as sweet as that of Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī. Similarly, the glories of the kuṇḍa [lake] are as great as Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī's. sei kuṇḍe yei eka-bāra kare snāna tāńre rādhā-sama 'prema' kṛṣṇa kare dāna "Indeed, Lord Kṛṣṇa gives ecstatic love like that of Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī to whoever bathes in that lake even once in his life.” Only the experienced devotee.understand the complete feelings of mine-ness towards Sri Radhakunda of the Radha-nistha devotees (those who are completely loyal to Radha), who love Priyaji (the beloved) with their whole hearts and who have offered their hearts to Her lotusfeet, It is here that Sri-Sri Radha Madhava eternally play Their midday-pastimes, and there is no place so der to Them as this. The Kunda is related to Svamini (Radha)as being non-different from Her, so along with the kunda those devotee who are surrendered to Her see Their lila (amorous pastimes). When Sri Krishna is eager to meet Sri radha and can find no means to see Her, He takes shelter of Radha kunda. The most fortunate souls can live on the banks of Sri Radha kunda, and that fortune consists of Radha’s personal mercy upon them. They qualified to receive that mercy. Srila Ragunatha dasa Gosvami writes in Vraja Vilasa Stava (101) purA premodrekaiH pratipada navAnanda madhuraiH kRita zri gandharvAcyuta caraNa varySrcana balAt nikAmaM svaminyAH priyatarasaras tIra bhuvane vasanti sphITa ye tA iha mama jIvAtava ime “Because of having worshiped the beautiful lotusfeet of Sri Gandharvaand Acuta with the everfresh sweetness of pure spiritual love in their previous lives, some great souls are able to live on the bank of Svamini’s dearmost lake (Sri Radhakunda). These great devotees are my life and soul!”. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bija Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 CC Madhya 24.205 krsna-kripadi-hetu haite sabara udaya krsna-gunakrsta hana tanhare bhajaya Krsna's original mercy, comes in the form of His beautiful transcendental qualities, which attracts the soul to make the determination(vow) to worship him and become his devotee. I am far from having knowledge of bengali, but I feel this is what the verse is saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bija Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 as a follow on from my previous post... It seems the only disqualification from receiving mercy from the Guru on the madhyama-platform is if the candidate is hostile toward bhakti. The Guru (who feels attraction in his heart for the Lord's qualities) is willing to share the glories of those beautiful qualities to all, except those with hostility toward bhakti. Offence to Bhakti Devi is a grave offence, and to lead a soul into such an offence is not the desire of Guru (who is full of mercy- due to the bhakti residing within him). I am not sure of the Uttama-adhikari. I would say that by just seeing him, even those with hostility toward bhakti, would eventually be softened and placed on the path of good fortune. But would possibly not receive that special mercy bestowed upon the soft of heart. But saying this, all is dependant upon the Guru, who is given full jurisdiction by Krsna, due to the sweet bhakti in his heart. From Madhurya Kadambini In proposing the unqualified, causeless mercy of the devotee as the cause of devotion in another person, one may object that the devotee's mercy, like the Lord's, can be partial. Considering the case of the madhyama bhakta, one finds he does exhibit partiality or discretion in his distribution of mercy. For it is said in the Bhagavatam, prema-maitri-krpopesa yah karoti sa madhyamah, he exhibits prema towards the Lord, friendship to the devotees, mercy to the innocent and disregard for those hostile to bhakti (SB 11.3.46). In other words, this partiality is accepted as the natural characteristic of the madhyama bhakta. Since the Lord is subservient to His devotee, He lets His mercy follow after the mercy of His devotee and there is no irregularity in this. Now, the cause of that mercy manifesting itself in the devotee is bhakti itself residing within his heart. Without the devotee having bhakti, there is no possibility of the devotee manifesting mercy to others. Bhakti causes the devotee's mercy which causes bhakti in another person. Bhakti causes bhakti. The self-manifesting, causeless, independent nature of bhakti is thus concluded. There is a statement, yah kenapy atibhagyena jata sraddho ' sya sevane: a person attains faith in the service of the Lord by extreme good fortune. The words atibhagyena, extreme good fortune, should be ultimately understood to mean the attainment of the mercy of the devotee (bhakta karunya), which surpasses (atikrama) the fortune that results from material pious activities (shubha karma). Here, one should not consider that the devotee is dependent on the will of Lord and therefore cannot initiate the bestowal of mercy. For the Lord accepts subservience to His devotee (sva--bhaktavashyata) and gives preeminence to the devotee's position by giving him the power to bestow the Lord's own mercy (sva-kripa-shakti). The Lord as paramatma oversees those matters relating to the jiva's external senses, the reward from his past activities, however, He shows special mercy to His devotees (sva-prasada). In the Bhagavad-gita, mat-prasadat param santim... mat-samstham adhigacchati... (BG 18.62 and 6.15). Shri Chakravartipada cites these slokas almost as if they were one. The actual wording of the first is tat-prasadat, but here since tat refers to the Lord, mat can also be used. Krishna Himself speaks of His prasada or mercy as the means to attain transcendental peace and His supreme eternal realm. This prasada takes the form of the Lord's bestowal of His own kripa shakti, or power of mercy, to His devotee. In other words, one can receive the Lord's mecy through the mercy of the devotee who bestows it, as was previously explained. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 But this is another inacurate translation of a verse. The verse does not speak of the eligibility, or the qualification of the jiva to attain krishna’s mercy, as in Bhagavad-gita 2.64. But tu one who has become free vimuktaiḥ (from) material attachments rāga, envy dveṣa , and has und control ātma-vaśyaiḥ the senses indriyaiḥ acted upon caran material sense objects viṣayān and follows regulated principles related to the soul vidheya-ātmā attains adhigacchati the mercy of the Lord prasādam Yes, but this verse does not say "ONLY THOSE" attain mercy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 They qualified to receive that mercy. And that qualification is ..... Krsna's desire that they receive mercy. That we cannot legislate. Rewarding accordingly is justice - not mercy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadi Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 Dear qHari, dandavat pranam, As I said that the translation you presented for CC Madhya 24.205 is another inacurate translation of a verse. And the verse does not speak of the eligibility, or the qualification of the jiva to attain krishna’s mercy, as in Bhagavad-gita 2.64. <u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>But tu one who has become free vimuktaiḥ (from) material attachments rāga, envy dveṣa , and has und control ātma-vaśyaiḥ the senses indriyaiḥ acted upon caran material sense objects viṣayān and follows regulated principles related to the soul vidheya-ātmā attains adhigacchati the mercy of the Lord prasādam You replied Yes, but this verse does not say "ONLY THOSE" attain mercy. But You forgot to present evidence for who are “THE OTHERS”. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brajeshwara das Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 My understanding is the deep feeling of disqualification, that humility, is the qualification. So this whole debate is kind of strange, as we understand no qualification is qualification. Through our surrender and the grace of the Lord we are raised up, but not through some feeling of qualification. Feeling qualified disqualifies us. We can't make a payment to enter that domain as Theist said previously. But even so, even if we are qualified, if Krsna wants he can cast us into hell no matter what, that is His perogotive. There are no rules He must follow that say He needs to do this or that. He's an autocrat. It is ultimately through His mercy that we are allowed entrance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadi Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 And that qualification is ..... Krsna's desire that they receive mercy. That we cannot legislate. Rewarding accordingly is justice - not mercy. Dear qHari, dandavat pranam, This idea has already been refuted. The mercy of Krihsna has nothing to do with rewarding. It is always there available. Only we are blind to see it. So we have to cure our desease. The cure - process is called sadhana. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadi Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 Feeling qualified disqualifies us. Dear brajeshwara, dandavat pranam, The more you qualify, the more you are feeling disqualified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brajeshwara das Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 Dear brajeshwara, dandavat pranam, The more you qualify, the more you are feeling disqualified. Yes anandi. But this emphasis you are putting on qualification can be dangerous for us kanishtas. We start thinking 'I need to be qualified...I am becoming qualified...I am qualified!'. And again, even though any qualification, if it is the Lord's will we are denied entrance, so be it. We can't force our way in, but are allowed. It ultimately comes from Him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brajeshwara das Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 Dear qHari, dandavat pranam, This idea has already been refuted. The mercy of Krihsna has nothing to do with rewarding. It is always there available. Only we are blind to see it. So we have to cure our desease. The cure - process is called sadhana. The doctor cures our disease. We are dependent on the mercy of the Vaisnavas. We don't cure ourselves. We allow ourselves to be cured, we have that free will to do so, but without the mercy of Sri Guru we cannot do it alone. Paramatma is sitting in our hearts, but we are not Paramatma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadi Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 Dear brajeshwar, dandavat pranam, As I said that: The more you qualify, the more you are feeling disqualified. You replied: ... But this emphasis you are putting on qualification can be dangerous for us kanishtas. We start thinking 'I need to be qualified...I am becoming qualified. To think that you need to qualify is not dangerous. You should qualify. But if you don’t really follow the path of qualification with the most prominent limbs: in sadhu sanga doing nama kirtan and hearing about the lilas of the Lord, (bhagavat shravan), living in <st1:city><st1:place>mathura</st1:place></st1:city> mandala (<st1:city><st1:place>mathura</st1:place></st1:city> vasa) and worshiping with faith the Deity of the Lord (Sri murtira shradaya sevan) then inevitably you will think you are qualified. Very few follow the path of qualification: sadhana. There are only a few sadhakas in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadi Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 Dear brajeshwar, dandavat pranam, As I said that: So we have to cure our desease. The cure-process is called sadhana. You replied: The doctor cures our disease. We are dependent on the mercy of the Vaisnavas. We don't cure ourselves. We allow ourselves to be cured, we have that free will to do so, but without the mercy of Sri Guru we cannot do it alone. Most probably you don’t know that your description is part of the sadhana bhakti. Sadhu sanga is of outmost importance in the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 The doctor cures our disease. We are dependent on the mercy of the Vaisnavas. We don't cure ourselves. We allow ourselves to be cured, we have that free will to do so, but without the mercy of Sri Guru we cannot do it alone. Paramatma is sitting in our hearts, but we are not Paramatma. can you show a shastric verse to that example? I think the medicine cures the disease, not the doctor. the doctor prescribes medicine and if we take the medicine we might get cured if the diagnosis is valid and the disease is not terminal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 Dear brajeshwar, dandavat pranam, As I said that: So we have to cure our desease. The cure-process is called sadhana. You replied: The doctor cures our disease. We are dependent on the mercy of the Vaisnavas. We don't cure ourselves. We allow ourselves to be cured, we have that free will to do so, but without the mercy of Sri Guru we cannot do it alone. Most probably you don’t know that your description is part of the sadhana bhakti. Sadhu sanga is of outmost importance in the process. how much sadhu sanga do we have to have? do we need constant and continuous sadhu sanga? Or, can a moments association with a sadhu award all perfection. are only "gurus" sadhu sanga? are only old indian swamis with beards sadhu sanga? sadhu sanga is important, but the problem is that there are a lot of devotees around nowadays who propose that only their guru or their "rasika acharya" is sadhu sanga. sure, sadhu sanga is important. but, sadhu sanga comes in forms other than physical proximity to a sadhu. too many people nowadays like to promote the idea that physical proximity to a sadhu is the only from of sadhu sanga. all devotees appreciate devotee association. most usually this big talk about sadhu sanga is about some extremist fanatic trying to cram his pet guru down the throat of everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 Guruvani is somehow right, without doing something nothing happens, NOI 3, There are six principles favorable to the execution of pure devotional service: (1) being enthusiastic, (2) endeavoring with confidence, (3) being patient, (4) acting according to regulative principles (such as śravaṇaḿ kīrtanaḿ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇam [sB 7.5.23] — hearing, chanting and remembering Kṛṣṇa), (5) abandoning the association of nondevotees, and (6) following in the footsteps of the previous ācāryas. These six principles undoubtedly assure the complete success of pure devotional service. PURPORT Devotional service is not a matter of sentimental speculation or imaginative ecstasy. Its substance is practical activity. Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī, in his Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu (1.1.11), has defined devotional service as follows: anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaḿ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu- śīlanaḿ bhaktir uttamā [Madhya 19.167] "Uttamā bhakti, or unalloyed devotion unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Śrī Kṛṣṇa, involves the rendering of devotional service in a way that is favorable to the Lord. This devotional service should be free from any extraneous motive and devoid of fruitive karma, impersonal jñāna and all other selfish desires." Bhakti is a sort of cultivation. As soon as we say "cultivation," we must refer to activity. Cultivation of spirituality does not mean sitting down idly for meditation, as some pseudo-yogīs teach. Such idle meditation may be good for those who have no information of devotional service, and for this reason it is sometimes recommended as a way to check distracting materialistic activities. Meditation means stopping all nonsensical activities, at least for the time being. Devotional service, however, not only puts an end to all nonsensical mundane activities, but also engages one in meaningful devotional activities. Śrī Prahlāda Mahārāja recommends: śravaṇaḿ kīrtanaḿ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaḿ pāda-sevanam arcanaḿ vandanaḿ dāsyaḿ sakhyam ātma-nivedanam [sB 7.5.23] The nine processes of devotional service are as follows: 1. hearing the name and glories of the Supreme Personality of Godhead 2. chanting His glories 3. remembering the Lord 4. serving the Lord's feet 5. worshiping the Deity 6. offering obeisances unto the Lord 7. acting as the Lord's servant 8. making friends with the Lord 9. surrendering oneself fully to the Lord Śravaṇam, or hearing, is the first step in acquiring transcendental knowledge. One should not give aural reception to unauthorized persons, but should approach the proper person, as recommended in Bhagavad-gītā (4.34): tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā upadekṣyanti te jñānaḿ jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ "Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth." It is further recommended in the Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad, tad-vijñānārthaḿ sa gurum evābhigacchet: [MU 1.2.12] "To understand that transcendental science, one must approach a bona fide spiritual master." Thus this method of submissively receiving transcendental confidential knowledge is not merely based on mental speculation. In this regard, Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu told Rūpa Gosvāmī: brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva guru-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya bhakti-latā-bīja "In the course of traversing the universal creation of Brahmā, some fortunate soul may receive the seed of bhakti-latā, the creeper of devotional service. This is all by the grace of guru and Kṛṣṇa." (Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Madhya 19.151) The material world is a place of confinement for the living entities who are by nature ānandamaya, pleasure-seeking. They actually want to be free from the confinement of this world of conditional happiness, but not knowing the process of liberation, they are bound to transmigrate from one species of life to another and from one planet to another. In this way the living entities are wandering throughout the material universe. When by good fortune one comes in contact with a pure devotee and hears from him patiently, one begins to follow the path of devotional service. Such an opportunity is offered to a person who is sincere. The International Society for Krishna Consciousness is giving such a chance to humanity at large. If by fortune one takes advantage of this opportunity to engage in devotional service, the path of liberation immediately opens. One should accept this opportunity to return home, back to Godhead, very enthusiastically. Without enthusiasm, one cannot be successful. Even in the material world one has to be very enthusiastic in his particular field of activity in order to become successful. A student, businessman, artist or anyone else who wants success in his line must be enthusiastic. Similarly, one has to be very enthusiastic in devotional service. Enthusiasm means action, but action for whom? The answer is that one should always act for Kṛṣṇa — kṛṣṇārthākhila-ceṣṭā (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu). In all phases of life one has to perform devotional activities under the direction of the spiritual master in order to attain perfection in bhakti-yoga. It is not that one has to confine or narrow one's activities. Kṛṣṇa is all-pervading. Therefore nothing is independent of Kṛṣṇa, as Kṛṣṇa Himself states in Bhagavad-gītā (9.4): mayā tatam idaḿ sarvaḿ jagad avyakta-mūrtinā- mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni na cāhaḿ teṣv avasthitaḥ "By Me, in My unmanifested form, this entire universe is pervaded. All beings are in Me, but I am not in them." Under the direction of the bona fide spiritual master, one has to make everything favorable for Kṛṣṇa's service. For example, at present we are using a dictaphone. The materialist who invented this machine intended it for businessmen or writers of mundane subject matters. He certainly never thought of using the dictaphone in God's service, but we are using this dictaphone to write Kṛṣṇa conscious literature. Of course, the manufacture of the dictaphone is wholly within the energy of Kṛṣṇa. All the parts of the instrument, including the electronic functions, are made from different combinations and interactions of the five basic types of material energy — namely, bhūmi, jala, agni, vāyu and ākāśa. The inventor used his brain to make this complicated machine, and his brain, as well as the ingredients, were supplied by Kṛṣṇa. According to the statement of Kṛṣṇa, mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni: "Everything is depending on My energy." Thus the devotee can understand that since nothing is independent of Kṛṣṇa's energy, everything should be dovetailed in His service. Endeavor executed with intelligence in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is called utsāha, or enthusiasm. The devotees find the correct means by which everything can be utilized in the service of the Lord (nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe yuktaḿ vairāgyam ucyate). The execution of devotional service is not a matter of idle meditation but practical action in the foreground of spiritual life. These activities must be executed with patience. One should not be impatient in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Indeed, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement was started single-handedly, and in the beginning there was no response, but because we continued to execute our devotional activities with patience, people gradually began to understand the importance of this movement, and now they are eagerly participating. One should not be impatient in discharging devotional service, but should take instructions from the spiritual master and execute them with patience, depending on the mercy of guru and Kṛṣṇa. The successful execution of Kṛṣṇa conscious activities requires both patience and confidence. A newly married girl naturally expects offspring from her husband, but she cannot expect to have them immediately after marriage. Of course, as soon as she is married she can attempt to get a child, but she must surrender to her husband, confident that her child will develop and be born in due time. Similarly, in devotional service surrender means that one has to become confident. The devotee thinks, avaśya rakṣibe kṛṣṇa: "Kṛṣṇa will surely protect me and give me help for the successful execution of devotional service." This is called confidence. As already explained, one should not be idle but should be very enthusiastic about executing the regulative principles — tat-tat-karma-pravartana. Neglect of the regulative principles will destroy devotional service. In this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement there are four basic regulative principles, forbidding illicit sex, meat-eating, gambling and intoxication. A devotee must be very enthusiastic about following these principles. If he becomes slack in following any of them, his progress will certainly be checked. Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī therefore recommends, tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt: "One must strictly follow the regulative principles of vaidhī bhakti." In addition to these four prohibitions (yama), there are positive regulative principles (niyama), such as the daily chanting of sixteen rounds on japa-mālā beads. These regulative activities must be faithfully performed with enthusiasm. This is called tat-tat-karma-pravartana, or varied engagement in devotional service. Furthermore, in order to be successful in devotional service one must give up the association of undesirable people. This includes karmīs, jñānīs, yogīs and other nondevotees. Once Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu was asked by one of His householder devotees about the general principles of Vaiṣṇavism, as well as the general routine activities of the Vaiṣṇava, and Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu immediately replied, asat-sańga-tyāga, — ei vaiṣṇava-ācāra: "Characteristically, a Vaiṣṇava is one who gives up the association of worldly people, or nondevotees." Śrīla Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura has therefore recommended, tāńdera caraṇa sevi bhakta-sane vāsa: one has to live in the company of pure devotees and execute the regulative principles laid down by the previous ācāryas, the six Gosvāmīs (namely, Śrī Rūpa Gosvāmī, Śrī Sanātana Gosvāmī, Śrī Jīva Gosvāmī, Śrī Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī, Śrī Gopāla Bhaṭṭa Gosvāmī and Śrī Raghunātha Bhaṭṭa Gosvāmī). If one lives in the association of devotees, there is little chance of associating with nondevotees. The International Society for Krishna Consciousness is opening many centers just to invite people to live in the company of devotees and practice the regulative principles of spiritual life. Devotional service means transcendental activities. On the transcendental platform there is no contamination by the three modes of material nature. This is called viśuddha-sat-tva, the platform of pure goodness, or goodness free from contamination by the qualities of passion and ignorance. In this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement we require everyone to rise early in the morning, by four A.M.,and attend mańgala-ārati, or morning worship, then read Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, perform kīrtana, and so forth. Thus we hold continuous activities in devotional service twenty-four hours daily. This is called sato vṛtti, or following in the footsteps of the previous ācāryas who expertly filled every moment of time with Kṛṣṇa conscious activities. If one strictly follows the advice given in this verse by Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī — namely, being enthusiastic, being confident, being patient, giving up the association of unwanted persons, following the regulative principles and remaining in the association of devotees — one is sure to advance in devotional service. In this regard Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura remarks that the cultivation of knowledge by philosophical speculation, the collection of mundane opulence by the advancement of fruitive activities, and the desire for yoga-siddhis, material perfections, are all contrary to the principles of devotional service. One has to become thoroughly callous to such nonpermanent activities and turn his intention instead to the regulative principles of devotional service. According to Bhagavad-gītā (2.69): yā niśā sarva-bhūtānāḿ tasyāḿ jāgarti saḿyamī yasyāḿ jāgrati bhūtāni sā niśā paśyato muneḥ "What is night for all beings is the time of awakening for the self-controlled; and the time of awakening for all beings is night for the introspective sage." Engagement in the devotional service of the Lord is the life and soul of the living entity. It is the desired goal and supreme perfection of human life. One has to become confident about this, and one also has to be confident that all activities other than devotional service — such as mental speculation, fruitive work or mystic endeavor — will never yield any enduring benefit. Complete confidence in the path of devotional service will enable one to attain his desired goal, but attempting to follow other paths will only succeed in making one restless. In the Seventh Canto of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is stated: "One must be calmly convinced that those who have given up devotional service to engage in severe austerities for other purposes are not purified in their minds, despite their advanced austerities, because they have no information of the transcendental loving service of the Lord." It is further stated in the Seventh Canto: "Although mental speculators and fruitive actors may perform great austerities and penances, they still fall down because they do not have information about the lotus feet of the Lord." The devotees of the Lord, however, never fall down. In Bhagavad-gītā (9.31), the Supreme Personality of Godhead assures Arjuna, kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati: "O son of Kuntī, declare it boldly that My devotee never perishes." Again in Bhagavad-gītā (2.40) Kṛṣṇa says: nehābhikrama-nāśo 'sti pratyavāyo na vidyate svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt "In this endeavor there is no loss or diminution, and a little advancement on this path can protect one from the most dangerous type of fear." Devotional service is so pure and perfect that once having begun, one is forcibly dragged to ultimate success. Sometimes a person will give up his ordinary material engagements and out of sentiment take shelter of the lotus feet of the Supreme Lord and thus begin the preliminary execution of devotional service. Even if such an immature devotee falls down, there is no loss on his part. On the other hand, what is the gain of one who executes the prescribed duties according to his varṇa and āśrama but does not take to devotional service? Although a fallen devotee may take his next birth in a low family, his devotional service will nonetheless resume from where it left off. Devotional service is ahaituky apratihatā; it is not the effect of any mundane cause, nor can it be terminated by any mundane cause or permanently curtailed by any material interruption. Therefore a devotee should be confident about his engagement and should not be very interested in the activities of the karmīs, jñānīs and yogīs. There are certainly many good qualities among fruitive actors, philosophical speculators and mystic yogīs, but all good qualities automatically develop in the character of a devotee. No extraneous endeavor is needed. As confirmed by Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (5.18.12), all the good qualities of the demigods manifest progressively in one who has developed pure devotional service. Because a devotee is not interested in any material activity, he does not become materially contaminated. He is immediately situated on the platform of transcendental life. However, one who engages in mundane activity — be he a so-called jñānī, yogī, karmī, philanthropist, nationalist, or whatever — cannot attain the higher stage of mahātmā. He remains a durātmā, or cripple-minded person. According to Bhagavad-gītā (9.13): mahātmānas tu māḿ pārtha daivīḿ prakṛtim āśritāḥ bhajanty ananya-manaso jñātvā bhūtādim avyayam "O son of Pṛthā, those who are not deluded, the great souls, are under the protection of the divine nature. They are fully engaged in devotional service because they know Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, original and inexhaustible." Since all the devotees of the Lord are under the protection of His supreme potency, they should not deviate from the path of devotional service and take to the path of the karmī, jñānī or yogī. This is called utsāhān niścayād dhairyāt tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt, enthusiastically executing the regulative activities of devotional service with patience and confidence. In this way one can advance in devotional service without hindrance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brajeshwara das Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 can you show a shastric verse to that example?I think the medicine cures the disease, not the doctor. the doctor prescribes medicine and if we take the medicine we might get cured if the diagnosis is valid and the disease is not terminal. Thanks for the adjustment. You have to appreciate the spiritual chiropractors , and no I don't have shastric backup, mental speculation got me, I'm sorry to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brajeshwara das Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 Dear brajeshwar, dandavat pranam, As I said that: So we have to cure our desease. The cure-process is called sadhana. You replied: The doctor cures our disease. We are dependent on the mercy of the Vaisnavas. We don't cure ourselves. We allow ourselves to be cured, we have that free will to do so, but without the mercy of Sri Guru we cannot do it alone. Most probably you don’t know that your description is part of the sadhana bhakti. Sadhu sanga is of outmost importance in the process. Sorry, I spoke hastily. Of course I wasn't denying sadhana-bhakti. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted February 12, 2007 Report Share Posted February 12, 2007 This idea has already been refuted. I must have missed that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted February 12, 2007 Report Share Posted February 12, 2007 ...all devotees appreciate devotee association. most usually this big talk about sadhu sanga is about some extremist fanatic trying to cram his pet guru down the throat of everyone. "Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice". Barry Goldwater (Whoops!, wrong philosophy!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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