Persons who have got by heart almost everything Srila Prabhupada wrote, said, etc....

[krsna]

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Thakura Bhaktivinoda

 

 

 

 

 

 

by

 

 

 

 

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura

 

 

(The Harmonist, December 1931, vol. XXIX No.6)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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We avail of the opportunity offered by the Anniversary Celebrations of the advent of Thakura Bhaktivinoda to reflect on the right method of obtaining those benefits that have been made accessible to humanity by the grace of this great devotee of Krsna. Thakura Bhaktivinoda has been specifically kind to those unfortunate persons who are engrossed in mental speculation of all kinds. This is the prevalent malady of the present Age. The other acaryas who appeared before Thakura Bhaktivinoda did not address their discourses so directly to the empiric thinkers. They had been more merciful to those who are naturally disposed to listen to discourses on the Absolute without being dissuaded by the specious arguments of avowed opponents of Godhead.

 

Srila Thakura Bhaktivinoda has taken the trouble of meeting the perverse arguments of mental speculationists by the superior transcendental logic of the Absolute Truth. It is thus possible for the average modern readers to profit by the perusal of his writings. That day is not far distant when the priceless volumes penned by Thakura Bhaktivinoda will be reverently translated, by the recipients of his grace, into all the languages of the world.

The writings of Thakura Bhaktivinoda provide the golden bridge by which the mental speculationist can safely cross the raging waters of fruitless empiric controversies that trouble the peace of those who choose to trust in their guidance for finding the Truth. As soon as the sympathetic reader is in a position to appreciate the sterling quality of Thakura Bhaktivinoda's philosophy the entire vista of the revealed literatures of the world will automatically open out to his reclaimed vision.

There have, however, already arisen serious misunderstandings regarding the proper interpretation of the life and teachings of Srila Thakura Bhaktivinoda. Those who suppose they understand the meaning of his message without securing the guiding grace of the Acarya are disposed to unduly favour the methods of empiric study of his writings. There are persons who have got by heart almost everything that he wrote without being able to catch the least particle of his meaning. Such study cannot benefit those who are not prepared to act up to the instructions lucidly conveyed by his words. There is no honest chance of missing the warnings of Thakura Bhaktivinoda. Those, therefore, who are misled by the perusal of his writings are led astray by their own obstinate perversity in sticking to the empiric course which they prefer to cherish against his explicit warnings. Let these unfortunate persons look more carefully into their own hearts for the cause of their misfortunes.

The personal service of the pure devotee is essential for understanding the spiritual meaning of the words of Thakura Bhaktivinoda. The Editor of this Journal, originally started by Thakura Bhaktivinoda, has been trying to draw the attention of all followers of Thakura Bhaktivinoda to this all-important point of his teachings. It is not necessary to try to place ourselves on a footing of equality with Thakura Bhaktivinoda. We are not likely to benefit by any mechanical imitation of any practices of Thakura Bhaktivinoda on the opportunist principle that they may be convenient for us to adopt. The Guru is not an erring mortal whose activities can be understood by the fallible reason of unreclaimed humanity. There is an eternally impassable line of demarcation between the Saviour and the saved. Those who are really saved can alone know this.Thakura Bhaktivinoda belongs to the category of the spiritual world-teachers who eternally occupy the superior position.

The present Editor has all along felt it his paramount duty to try to clear up the meaning of the life and teachings of Thakura Bhaktivinoda by the method of submissive listening to the Transcendental Sound from the lips of the pure devotee. The Guru who realises the transcendental meaning of all sounds, is in a position to serve the Absolute by the direction of the Absolute conveyed through every sound. The Transcendental Sound is Godhead, the mundane sound is non-Godhead. All sound has got these opposite aptitudes. All sound reveals its Divine face to the devotee and only presents its deluding aspect to the empiric pedant. The devotee talks apparently the same language as the deluded empiric pedant who had got by heart the vocabulary of the Scriptures. But notwithstanding apparent identity of performance, the one has no access to the reality while the other is absolutely free from all delusion.

Those who repeat the teachings of Thakura Bhaktivinoda from memory do not necessarily understand the meaning of the words they mechanically repeat. Those who can pass an empiric examination regarding the contents of his writings are not necessarily also self-realised souls. They may not at all know the real meaning of the words they have learnt by the method of empiric study.Take for example the Name "Krsna". Every reader of Thakura Bhaktivinoda's works must be aware that the Name manifests Himself on the lips of His serving devotees although He is inaccessible to our mundane senses. It is one thing to pass the examination by reproducing this true conclusion from the writings of Thakura Bhaktivinoda and quite another matter to realise the Nature of the Holy Name of Krsna by the process conveyed by the words.

Thakura Bhaktivinoda did not want us to go to the clever mechanical reciter of the mundane sound for obtaining access to the Transcendental Name of Krsna. Such a person may be fully equipped with all the written arguments in explanation of the nature of the Divine Name. But if we listen to all these arguments from the dead source the words will only increase our delusion. The very same words coming from the lips of the devotee will have the diametrically opposite effect. Our empiric judgment can never grasp the difference between the two performances. The devotee is always right. The non-devotee in the shape of the empiric pedant is always and necessarily wrong. In the one case there is always present the Substantive Truth and nothing but the Substantive Truth. In the other case there is present the apparent or misleading hypothesis and nothing but un-truth. The wording may have the same external appearance in both cases. The identical verses of the Scriptures may be recited by the devotee and the non-devotee, may be apparently misquoted by the non-devotee but the corresponding values of the two processes remain always categorically different. The devotee is right even when he apparently misquotes, the non-devotee is wrong even when he quotes correctly the very words, chapter and verse of the Scriptures.

It is not empiric wisdom that is the object of quest of the devotee. Those who read the scriptures for gathering empiric wisdom will be pursuing the wild goose chase. There are not a few dupes of their empiric Scriptural erudition. These dupes have their admiring under-dupes. But the mutual admiration society of dupes does not escape, by the mere weight of their number, the misfortunes due to the deliberate pursuit of the wrong course in accordance with the suggestions of our lower selves.

What are the Scriptures? They are nothing but the record by the pure devotees of the Divine Message appearing on the lips of the pure devotees. The Message conveyed by the devotees is the same in all ages. The words of the devotees are ever identical with the Scriptures. Any meaning of the Scriptures that belittles the function of the devotee who is the original communicant of the Divine Message contradicts its own claim to be heard. Those who think that the Sanskrit language in its lexicographical sense is the language of the Divinity are as deluded as those who hold that the Divine Message is communicable through any other spoken dialects. All languages simultaneously express and hide the Absolute. The mundane face of all languages hides the Truth. The Transcendental face of all sound expresses nothing but the Absolute. The pure devotee is the speaker of the Transcendental language. The Transcendental Sound makes His appearance on the lips of His pure devotee. This is the direct, unambiguous appearance of Divinity. On the lips of non-devotees the Absolute always appears in His deluding aspect. To the pure devotee the Absolute reveals Himself under all circumstances. To the conditioned soul, if he is disposed to listen in a truly submissive spirit, the language of the pure devotee can alone impart the knowledge of the Absolute. The conditioned soul mistakes the deluding for the real aspect when he chooses to lend his ear to the non-devotee. This is the reason why the conditioned soul is warned to avoid all association with non-devotees.

Thakura Bhaktivinoda is acknowledged by all his sincere followers as possessing the above powers of the pure devotee of Godhead. His words have to be received from the lips of a pure devotee. If his words are listened from the lips of a non-devotee they will certainly deceive. If his works are studied in the light of one's own worldly experience their meaning will refuse to disclose itself to such readers. His works belong to the class of the eternal revealed literature of the world and must be approached for their right understanding through their exposition by the pure devotee. If no help from the pure devotee is sought the works of Thakura Bhaktivinoda will be grossly misunderstood by their readers. The attentive reader of those works will find that he is always directed to throw himself upon the mercy of the pure devotee if he is not to remain unwarrantably self-satisfied by the deluding results of his wrong method of study.

The writings of Thakura Bhaktivinoda are valuable because they demolish all empiric objections against accepting the only method of approaching the Absolute in the right way. They cannot and were never intended to give access to the Absolute without help from the pure devotee of Krsna. They direct the sincere enquirer of the Truth, as all the revealed scriptures do, to the pure devotee of Krsna to learn about Him by submitting to listen with an open mind to the Transcendental Sound appearing on His lips. Before we open any of the books penned by Thakura Bhaktivinoda we should do well to reflect a little on the attitude, with which as the indispensable pre-requisite, to approach its study. It is by neglecting to remember this fundamental principle that the empiric pedants find themselves so hopelessly puzzled in their vain endeavour to reconcile the statements of the different texts of the Scriptures. The same difficulty is already in process of overtaking many of the so-called followers of Thakura Bhaktivinoda and for the same reason.

The person to whom the Acarya is pleased to transmit his power is alone in a position to convey the Divine Message. This constitutes the underlying principle of the line of succession of the spiritual teachers. The Acarya thus authorised has no other duty than that of delivering intact the message received from all his predecessors. There is no difference between the pronouncements of one Acarya and another. All of them are perfect mediums for the appearance of the Divinity in the Form of the Transcendental Name Who is identical with His Form, Quality, Activity and Paraphernalia.

The Divinity is Absolute Knowledge. Absolute Knowledge has the character of indivisible Unity. One particle of the Absolute Knowledge is capable of revealing all the potency of the Divinity. Those who want to understand the contents of the volumes penned by the piece-meal acquisitive method applicable to deluding knowledge available to the mind on the mundane plane, are bound to be self-deceived. Those who are sincere seekers of the Truth are alone eligible to find Him, in and through the proper method of His quest.

In order to be put on the track of the Absolute, listening to the words of the pure devotee is absolutely necessary. The spoken word of the Absolute is the Absolute. It is only the Absolute Who can give Himself away to the constituents of His power. The Absolute appears to the listening ear of the conditioned soul in the form of the Name on the lips of the sadhu. This is the key to the whole position. The words of Thakura Bhaktivinoda direct the empiric pedant to discard his wrong method and inclination on the threshold of the real quest of the Absolute. If the pedant still chooses to carry his errors into the Realm of the Absolute Truth he only marches by a deceptive bye-path into the regions of darker ignorance by his arrogant study of the scriptures. The method offered by Thakura Bhaktivinoda is identical with the object of the quest. The method is not really grasped except by the grace of the pure devotee. The arguments, indeed, are these. But they can only corroborate, but can never be a substitute for, the word from the living source of the Truth who is no other than the pure devotee of Krsna, the concrete Personal Absolute.

Thakura Bhaktivinoda's greatest gift to the world consists in this; that he has brought about the appearance of those pure devotees who are, at present, carrying on the movement of unalloyed devotion to the Feet of Shree Krsna by their own wholetime spiritual service of the Divinity. The purity of the soul is only analogously describable by the resources of the mundane language. The highest ideal of empiric morality is no better than the grossest wickedness to the Transcendental perfect purity of the bonafide devotee of the Absolute. The word 'morality' itself is a mischievous misnomer when it is applied to any quality of the conditioned soul. The hypocritical contentment with a negative attitude is part and parcel of the principle of undiluted immorality.

Those who pretend to recognise the Divine Mission of Thakura Bhaktivinoda without aspiring to the unconditional service of those pure souls who really follow the teachings of the Thakura by the method enjoined by the scriptures and explained by Thakura Bhaktivinoda in a way that is so eminently suited to the requirements of the sophisticated mentality of the present Age, only deceive themselves and their willing victims by their hypocritical professions and performances. These persons must not be confounded with the bona-fide members of the flock.

Thakura Bhaktivinoda has predicted the consummation of religious unity of the world by the appearance of the only universal church which bears the eternal designation of the Brahma Sampradaya. He has given mankind the blessed assurance that all Theistic churches will shortly merge in the one eternal spiritual community by the grace of the Supreme Lord Sri Krsna Caitanya. The spiritual community is not circumscribed by the conditions of time and space, race and nationality. Mankind had been looking forward to this far-off Divine Event through the Long Ages. Thakura Bhaktivinoda has made the conception available in its practicable spiritual form to the open minded empiricist who is prepared to undergo the process of enlightenment. The key stone of the Arch has been laid which will afford the needed shelter to all awakened animation under its ample encircling arms. Those who would thoughtlessly allow their hollow pride of race, pseudo-knowledge or pseudo-virtue to stand in the way of this long hoped for consummation, would have to thank only themselves for not being incorporated in the spiritual society of all pure souls.

These plain words need not be misrepresented, by arrogant persons who are full of the vanity of empiric ignorance, as the pronouncements of aggressive sectarianism. The aggressive pronouncement of the concrete Truth is the crying necessity of the moment for silencing the aggressive propaganda of specific untruths that is being carried on all over the world by the preachers of empiric contrivances for the amelioration of the hard lot of conditioned souls. The empiric propaganda clothes itself in the language of negative abstraction for deluding those who are engrossed in the selfish pursuit of worldly enjoyment. But there is a positive and concrete function of the pure soul which should not be perversely confounded with any utilitarian form of worldly activity. Mankind stands in need of that positive spiritual function of which the hypocritical impersonalists are in absolute ignorance. The positive function of the soul harmonises the claims of extreme selfishness with those of extreme self-abnegation in the society of pure souls even in this mundane world. In its concrete realisable form the function is perfectly inaccessible to the empiric understanding. Its imperfect and misleading conception alone is available by the study of the Scriptures to the conditioned soul that is not helped by the causeless grace of the pure devotees of Godhead.

 

 

 

 

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[theist]

"The personal service of the pure devotee is essential for understanding the spiritual meaning of the words of Thakura Bhaktivinoda."

[Puru Das, das anudas]

Thank you theist. When I saw title of thread I immediately thought of this essay, and am happy to see you appreciate it. I am in vraja writing from a cyber cafe near Bankibihari Temple. I will travel to Nabadwipa later this month to attend the Gaura Mandala Parikrama with Srila B.V. Narayana Maharaja. Parikrama is Feb. 25-Mqarch 3rd.

ys

pda

[Puru Das, das anudas]

". . . Those who repeat the teachings of Thakura Bhaktivinoda from memory do not necessarily understand the meaning of the words they mechanically repeat.

 

Those who can pass an empiric examination regarding the contents of his writings are not necessarily also self-realised souls. They may not at all know the real meaning of the words they have learnt by the method of empiric study.

 

Take for example the Name "Krsna". Every reader of Thakura Bhaktivinoda's works must be aware that the Name manifests Himself on the lips of His serving devotees although He is inaccessible to our mundane senses. It is one thing to pass the examination by reproducing this true conclusion from the writings of Thakura Bhaktivinoda and quite another matter to realise the Nature of the Holy Name of Krsna by the process conveyed by the words . . . "

 

http://bvml.org/SBSST/tb.htm

 

[Puru Das, das anudas]

What are the Scriptures? They are nothing but the record by the pure devotees of the Divine Message appearing on the lips of the pure devotees. The Message conveyed by the devotees is the same in all ages. The words of the devotees are ever identical with the Scriptures. Any meaning of the Scriptures that belittles the function of the devotee who is the original communicant of the Divine Message contradicts its own claim to be heard. . .

 

 

corroboration from His Divine Grace regarding the importance of sadhu sanga:

 

TEXT 71

TEXT

rati-prema-taratamye bhakta----tara-tama

ekadasa skandhe tara kariyache laksana

SYNONYMS

rati--of attachment; prema--and love; taratamye--by comparison; bhakta--devotee; tara-tama--superior and superlative; ekadasa skandhe--in the Eleventh Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam; tara--of him; kariyache--has made; laksana--symptoms.

TRANSLATION

"A devotee is considered superlative and superior according to his attachment and love. In the Eleventh Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam, the following symptoms have been ascertained.

PURPORT

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has stated that if one has developed faith in Krsna consciousness, he is to be considered an eligible candidate for further advancement in Krsna consciousness. Those who have faith are divided into three categories-uttama, madhyama and kanistha (first-class, second-class and neophyte). A first-class devotee has firm conviction in the revealed scriptures and is expert in arguing according to the sastras. He is firmly convinced of the science of Krsna consciousness. The madhyama-adhikari, or second-class devotee, has firm conviction in Krsna consciousness, but he cannot support his conviction by citing sastric references. The neophyte devotee does not yet have firm faith. In this way the devotees are typed.

The standard of devotion is also categorized in the same way. A neophyte believes that only love of Krsna or Krsna consciousness is very good, but he may not know the basis of pure Krsna consciousness or how one can become a perfect devotee. Sometimes in the heart of a neophyte there is attraction for karma, jnana or yoga. When he is free and transcendental to mixed devotional activity, he becomes a second-class devotee. When he becomes expert in logic and can refer to the sastras, he becomes a first-class devotee. The devotees are also described as positive, comparative and superlative, in terms of their love and attachment for Krsna.

It should be understood that a madhyama-adhikari, a second-class devotee, is fully convinced of Krsna consciousness but cannot support his convictions with sastric reference. A neophyte may fall down by associating with nondevotees because he is not firmly convinced and strongly situated. The second-class devotee, even though he cannot support his position with sastric reference, can gradually become a first-class devotee by studying the sastras and associating with a first-class devotee. However, if the second-class devotee does not advance himself by associating with a first-class devotee, he makes no progress. There is no possibility that a first-class devotee will fall down, even though he may mix with nondevotees to preach. Conviction and faith gradually increase to make one an uttama-adhikari, a first-class devotee.

 

HDGACBSP

Cc. Madhya lila 22.71

 

. . .Its imperfect and misleading conception alone is available by the study of the Scriptures to the conditioned soul that is not helped by the causeless grace of the pure devotees of Godhead. . . .

 

I will post a quote from Cc. as soon as I find it to corroborate this pont.

ys

pda

[theist]

 

Thank you theist. When I saw title of thread I immediately thought of this essay, and am happy to see you appreciate it. I am in vraja writing from a cyber cafe near Bankibihari Temple. I will travel to Nabadwipa later this month to attend the Gaura Mandala Parikrama with Srila B.V. Narayana Maharaja. Parikrama is Feb. 25-Mqarch 3rd.

ys

pda

 

Hare Krsna Puru,

 

Nice to hear you are in the Dhama. Yes I appreciated the article as much as I am presently able. Please don't think this signals a change of position for me as it doesn't. I have always known this to be true. Acaryas must be on the same page even though due to time and circumstance they may employ different methods. I still maintain that to understand the past guru's writing through the present acarya we still need the grace of the Caitya-guru to connect all the dots for us.

 

Absent such an embodied acarya's presence in our lives Caitya-guru remains closer than close ready to guide us home if we so desire. In such a case He would use the written vani left by His devotee to explain the science to us.

 

To state yet again I absolutely and uncompromising reject the idea of someone being "self-taught" in any field let alone transcendental science. What beethoven didn't learn from a contemporary teacher he surely learned from one in his past life.

 

No one can sit ALONE with his materially molded mind read some books even scripture and come to a proper understanding. That has never been an issue.

 

However when reading the commentary of the pure devotee as to the meaning of the scripture if we are inwardly open with an ounce of humility Caitya guru will illumine the presence of both Himself and His devotee within those books.

 

"The personal service of the pure devotee is essential for understanding the spiritual meaning of the words of Thakura Bhaktivinoda."

Serving the person of the pure devotee means to serve his instructions. That holds true rather he is wearing a so-called physical form or not. The transcendental devotee IS non-different from his transcendental instructions. If one hears those instruction in the form of a body or in the form of a book is irrelevant. Both are equal.

The central question remains of what is the motive of the one "hearing". Paramatma will fulfill that motive.

I am sure your pilgrimage will be fruitfull Puru. As for me it's just too hot and austere there. Like they say "if you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen". But it is nice to be reminded from those that are there.

Haribol

[Puru Das, das anudas]

 

. . .Its imperfect and misleading conception alone is available by the study of the Scriptures to the conditioned soul that is not helped by the causeless grace of the pure devotees of Godhead. . . .

 

I will post a quote from Cc. as soon as I find it to corroborate this pont.

ys

pda

 

 

Antya-lila Ch.7

<WBR> TEXT 53

 

bhattera hrdaye drdha abhimana jani'

bhangi kari' mahaprabhu kahe eta vani

 

SYNONYMS

 

bhattera hrdaye--in the heart of Vallabha Bhatta; drdha--fixed; abhimana--pride; jani'--understanding; bhangi kari'--making a hint; mahaprabhu--Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu; kahe--spoke; eta vani--these words.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Knowing that Vallabha Bhatta's heart was full of pride, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu spoke these words, hinting at how one can learn about devotional service.

 

PURPORT

 

Vallabha Bhatta was greatly proud of his knowledge in devotional service, and therefore he wanted to speak about Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu without understanding the Lord's position. The Lord therefore hinted in many ways that if Vallabha Bhatta wanted to know what devotional service actually is, he would have to learn from all the devotees He mentioned, beginning with Advaita Acarya, Lord Nityananda, Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya and Ramananda Raya. As Svarupa Damodara has said, if one wants to learn the meaning of Srimad-Bhagavatam, one must take lessons from a realized soul. One should not proudly think that one can understand the transcendental loving service of the Lord simply by reading books. One must become a servant of a Vaisnava. As Narottama dasa Thakura has confirmed, chadiya vaisnava-seva nistara payeche keba: one cannot be in a transcendental position unless one very faithfully serves a pure Vaisnava. One must accept a Vaisnava guru (adau gurv-asrayam), and then by questions and answers one should gradually learn what pure devotional service to Krsna is. That is called the parampara system.

 

........><!--D(["mb","\n

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\n......................... Conversation with Srila Prabhupada..

\n....................... ..May 21, 1975 Melbourne Australia.

\n

\n........... .Madhudvisa:. “… in the case of your books, is it possible to become a devotee without actually having personal association with you? Just by reading your books?”............. Srila Prabhupada: “ No, it is not that you have to associate with the author. But one who knows, if you cannot understand you have to take lesson from him. Not necessarily that you contact with the author always. … One who knows the subject matter, he can explain.”.............. Madhudvisa: “But can your, would your purports, would that serve as explanation besides…”.............. Srila Prabhupada: “ No, no, anyone who knows the subject matter, he will be able to explain................................<WBR>..... From Sri Krsna Kathamrita Vol. 2 No.1............................. Also in Prabhpada conversations book #13

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Conversation with Srila Prabhupada

May 21, 1975 Melbourne Australia

Madhudvisa: “… in the case of your books, is it possible to become a devotee without actually having personal association with you? Just by reading your books?”

 

Srila Prabhupada: “ No, it is not that you have to associate with the author. But one who knows, if you cannot understand you have to take lesson from him. Not necessarily that you contact with the author always. … One who knows the subject matter, he can explain.”

 

Madhudvisa: “But can your, would your purports, would that serve as explanation besides…”

 

Srila Prabhupada: “ No, no, anyone who knows the subject matter, he will be able to explain. <WBR>

 

From Sri Krsna Kathamrita Vol. 2 No.1

Also in Prabhpada conversations book #13

[Puru Das, das anudas]

 

Hare Krsna Puru,

Nice to hear you are in the Dhama. Yes I appreciated the article as much as I am presently able. Please don't think this signals a change of position for me as it doesn't. I have always known this to be true. Acaryas must be on the same page even though due to time and circumstance they may employ different methods. I still maintain that to understand the past guru's writing through the present acarya we still need the grace of the Caitya-guru to connect all the dots for us.

Absent such an embodied acarya's presence in our lives Caitya-guru remains closer than close ready to guide us home if we so desire. In such a case He would use the written vani left by His devotee to explain the science to us.

 

Greetings and thank you for appreciating the writing of SBSST.

There is a purport in the Cc. in which HIs Divine Grace has written that only an uttama adhikari Vaisnava can be in direct contact with "caitya guru", and another verse and purport in which Srila Krsnadas Kaviraj and Srila Prabhupada explain how the Supersoul manifests as Sri Guru to be accessible to the bhadda jivas, in their conditioned state, before their present senses. When I have the quotes I will post them.

 

To state yet again I absolutely and uncompromising reject the idea of someone being "self-taught" in any field let alone transcendental science. What beethoven didn't learn from a contemporary teacher he surely learned from one in his past life.

No one can sit ALONE with his materially molded mind read some books even scripture and come to a proper understanding. That has never been an issue.

Correct. It is an issue however with many fanatical rtvk proponents who think that living siksa guru is unecessary. Srila Prabhupada writes differently in Cc. Adi 1.35-47 in several purports.

 

However when reading the commentary of the pure devotee as to the meaning of the scripture if we are inwardly open with an ounce of humility Caitya guru will illumine the presence of both Himself and His devotee within those books.

"The personal service of the pure devotee is essential for understanding the spiritual meaning of the words of Thakura Bhaktivinoda."

Serving the person of the pure devotee means to serve his instructions. That holds true rather he is wearing a so-called physical form or not. The transcendental devotee IS non-different from his transcendental instructions. If one hears those instruction in the form of a body or in the form of a book is irrelevant. Both are equal.

Once agan soft rtvk confusion between the significance of the vanih and vapuh rears its ugly head in your statement.

You assert:

". . . The transcendental devotee IS non-different from his transcendental instructions. If one hears those instruction in the form of a body or in the form of a book is irrelevant. Both are equal."

They may be qualitatively equal, but the vanih of the acarya cannot initiate disciples, the vanih cannot have equal effect on the heart and mind of the sisya unless he is fully surrendered and has total realization on these points. Otherwise we can read the tikhas of any Rupanuga Vaisnava, e.g. Srila Rupa Gosvami and conclude that since He is non different than his instrucitons we are associating with him directly. In one sense we are and in the other we are not because we are still bhadda jivas who require the vapuh association of pure devotees. This is Srila Prabhupada's actual vanih with regard to associating with pure devotees. Here are only two statements from his books that proves this point:

(1)". . . He engaged his body in associating with the pure devotees of the Lord. [When you associate with someone you have to sit down together, eat together, etc.—and in this way the touch of your body with his body is inevitable. Ambarisha Mahäräja made his association only with pure devotees and did not allow his body to be touched by anyone else.] He engaged his nostrils in smelling the flowers and tulasi offered to Krsna, and he engaged his tongue in tasting Krsna prasäda [food prepared specifically for offering to the Lord, the remnants of which are taken by the devotees]. . . . The idea is that we should follow in the footsteps of great devotees. If we are unable to execute all the different items of devotional service, we must try to execute at least one of them, as exemplified by previous äcäryas. . . ."

Nectar of Devotion

Chapter 14 Devotional Qualifications

and

(2) As attachment can be invoked by the association of pure devotees, so attachment can also be extinguished by offenses committed at the lotus feet of pure devotees. To be more clear, by the association of pure devotees attachment for Krsna can be aroused, but if one commits offenses at the lotus feet of a devotee, one’s shadow attachment or parä attachment can be extinguished. This extinguishing is like the waning of the full moon, which gradually decreases and at last becomes dark. One should therefore be very careful while associating with pure devotees to guard against committing an offense at their lotus feet."

NOD

Chapter 18

Character of One in Ecstatic Love

So how do you commt an offence to the vanih?, unless you destroy a book or give less than full attention to any recording. Clearly HDG uses the word association to mean being in the physical proximity of a pure devotee's manifested <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City><st1:place>nara</st1:place></st1:City> lila form etc.etc.etc. We shoiuld not to read into the word "association" any new"rtvk" definition of what that word means. They confused "henceforward" and now they confuse "association." No surprise.

Rtvk English to suit the rtvk misconceptions. There are many,many other quotes from HIDG regarding association of pure devotees. You can examine them here: .

108 Srila Prabhupada Quotes on the Importance of Having the Association of Pure Devotees

http://bvml.org/contemporary/108spq.htm

However to actually understand these references you must add 2+2=4 AND NOT 5 with regard to what words like association mean. And we don’t dispute the qualitative oneness of the vanih and vapuh. That is not the issue with rtvk internet diatribe.

The rtvk dictionary wants to re write the essential meaning of words like associate, approach etc. to mean reading the written record or recorded video record of a departed acarya. Such self deception is apasiddhanta and only a mental speculation and NOT the actual vanih of His Divine Grace or any other Guadiya Acarya.

Srila Promode Puri Gosvami Maharaja

http://bvml.org/SBPPG/index.htm

(one of srila Prabhupad’s godbrothers) has said:

“. . . The famous words of the great souls tell us: vidhi marge braja-bhave paite nahi sakti. One cannot attain spontaneous devotion by mere practice of devotion (sadhana). The actual gift of spontaneous devotion is awarded only by the intense greed to receive it, coupled with the blessings of proximity to a genuine teacher who is resident of the holy dhama. . .”

from:

http://bvml.org/SBPPG/pai.htm

from a speech given on the The most auspicious event of the 124th Birthday Anniversary of SBSST.

 

The central question remains of what is the motive of the one "hearing". Paramatma will fulfill that motive.

I am sure your pilgrimage will be fruitfull Puru. As for me it's just too hot and austere there. Like they say "if you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen". <?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"><v:stroke joinstyle="miter"></v:stroke><v:formulas><v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></v:f></v:formulas><v:path o:connecttype="rect" gradientshapeok="t" o:extrusionok="f"></v:path><o:lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></o:lock></v:shapetype><v:shape id=_x0000_i1025 style="WIDTH: 12pt; HEIGHT: 12pt" alt="" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:href="http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/images/smilies/smile.gif" src="file:///D:\DOCUME~1\Badalji\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image001.gif"></v:imagedata></v:shape>But it is nice to be reminded from those that are there.

Haribol

 

Greed (laulyam) for Vaisnava Association is not something that can be given to anyone by an other conditioned soul. It comes by sukrti, krpa and causeless mercy.

.

[theist]

 

Greetings and thank you for appreciating the writing of SBSST.

There is a purport in the Cc. in which HIs Divine Grace has written that only an uttama adhikari Vaisnava can be in direct contact with "caitya guru", and another verse and purport in which Srila Krsnadas Kaviraj and Srila Prabhupada explain how the Supersoul manifests as Sri Guru to be accessible to the bhadda jivas, in their conditioned state, before their present senses. When I have the quotes I will post them.

Caitya guru is active in a devotees life long before that devotee even hears of Caitya -guru. Or do we think we dicovered the path of krsna consciousness on our own. Even though we cannot directly hear Caitya-guru, Caitya-guru hears us and responds to our level of sincerity. When we gain knowledge of this we must give acknowledgment where credit is due.

 

Correct. It is an issue however with many fanatical rtvk proponents who think that living siksa guru is unecessary. Srila Prabhupada writes differently in Cc. Adi 1.35-47 in several purports.

Siksa is necessary in all circumstances. Your term "living siksa guru" is one I also have trouble with. Guru is always "living" rather embodied in an earthly frame or not is immaterial. If you have his commentaries you have access to his association.

 

Once agan soft rtvk confusion between the significance of the vanih and vapuh rears its ugly head in your statement.

You assert:

". . . The transcendental devotee IS non-different from his transcendental instructions. If one hears those instruction in the form of a body or in the form of a book is irrelevant. Both are equal."

They may be qualitatively equal, but the vanih of the acarya cannot initiate disciples,

I would vehemenately disagree here. I take the position that it is only the vani of the devotee that has the power to initiate disciples. Surely the body of the spiritual master cannot intiate anyone because being just a vehicle IT HAS NO INITIATIVE OF IT'S OWN. Having no intiative, becasue that is a quality of the soul proper, how then could IT ever initiate another living being?

We have covered this ground over and over and I view it as basically behind me. Other than an occasional comment I will not rehash it again. My views on this subject are set and firm and I will never change them. Yours may be also. We will have to leave it to time to show who is right or wrong.

 

So how do you commt an offence to the vanih?, ...

You are a long time disciple so I am surprised you would even ask such a question. As a disciple if you hear your guru's instructions and do not follow them you commit an offense directly to your spiritual master.

Hare Krsna Puru

[Beggar]

It seems that the disagreement comes down to different definitions of vani and vapu. Maybe both of you could clarify this.

[theist]

Vani is the will of the spiritual master and his instructions on spiritual life in sound form (includes written word).

 

Vapu is the temporary external form, in our case a human form, that the eternal soul who is self realized uses to convey his vani into the material dimension so as to be accessable to those of us who are locked up in the six material sense and who can on our own see no farther.

 

The tool of the spiritual master is glorious and spiritual because the spiritual master uses it in Krsna's service. But like any other tool of this world it is destined to cease being of any function and is dropped off. It has a temporary usefullness of conveying the vani and nothing more.

 

It is like someone sends you a diamond through the mail in a nice box. When it arrives you may appreciate the beauty of the box but because you know it is only a container for the real gift you open it and take out the gift which you keep and treasure, in this case eternally.

 

The box may be kept for sometime as a rememberance but it is known that it will be lost in time.

 

Therefore the teachings of the spiritual master (vani) is the real object of value. The box (vapu) is only a conveyance of the real valuable object and should never be confused with the valuable object itself.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna

 

Theist

 

This topic has been discussed for ages. But one angle I hope you'll see, Theist, is the very important passage from the Bhagavad Gita that says:

 

Approach and surrender your life to a Guru , enquire from Him submissively and render service unto Him.The self realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because He has seen the truth.

 

We have to examine our hearts honestly; are we really honestly surrendered to our (non-physically present ) Guru through his words or do we say that because we want to to avoid being humble. Also how do you render seva bhakti to Srila prabhupad , Theist, if you do not even want to go to the kitchen because of the heat.

 

If we are honest, we will grow spiritually.

[theist]

Thanks for the advice. Yes honesty is always the best policy.

 

 

Also how do you render seva bhakti to Srila prabhupad , Theist, if you do not even want to go to the kitchen because of the heat.

 

We serve the devotee by serving his instructions. How else do you serve any guru.

 

You are running away with this kitchen analogy. What I spoke to Puru about the heat was in referrence to the heat in India. Heat as in climate. I cannot stand excessive heat or cold weather.

[Puru Das, das anudas]

Regardless of what anyone "thinks" about who can hear the Supersoul, Srila Prabhupada has written very clearly in the purport to

Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 4 Ch.29 text 50

". . . He talks only to the pure devotees who constantly engage in His service. . . ."

 

Read it in context here:

 

TEXT 50

 

harir deha-bhrtam atma

svayam prakrtir isvarah

tat-pada-mulam saranam

yatah ksemo nrnam iha

 

SYNONYMS

 

harih--Sri Hari; deha-bhrtam--of living entities who have accepted material bodies; atma--the Supersoul; svayam--Himself; prakrtih--material nature; isvarah--the controller; tat--His; pada-mulam--feet; saranam--shelter; yatah--from which; ksemah--good fortune; nrnam--of men; iha--in this world.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Sri Hari, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is the Supersoul and guide of all living entities who have accepted material bodies within this world. He is the supreme controller of all material activities in material nature. He is also our best friend, and everyone should take shelter at His lotus feet. In doing so, one's life will be auspicious.

 

PURPORT

 

In Bhagavad-gita (18.61) it is said, isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati: "The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, O Arjuna." The living entity is within the body, and the Supersoul, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is also there. He is called antaryami and caitya-guru. As Lord Krsna states in Bhagavad-gita (15.15), He is controlling everything.

 

sarvasya caham hrdi sannivisto

matah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca

 

"I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness."

Everything is being directed by the Supersoul within the body; therefore the better part of valor is to take His direction and be happy. To take His directions, one needs to be a devotee, and this is also confirmed in Bhagavad-gita (10.10):

 

tesam satata-yuktanam

bhajatam priti-purvakam

dadami buddhi-yogam tam

yena mam upayanti te

 

"To those who are constantly devoted and worship Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me."

Although the Supersoul is in everyone's heart (isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati), He talks only to the pure devotees who constantly engage in His service. In Caitanya-bhagavata (Antya 3.45) it is said:

 

tahare se bali vidya, mantra, adhyayana

krsna-pada-padme ye karaye sthira mana

 

"One who has fixed his mind on the lotus feet of Krsna is to be understood as having the best education and as having studied all the Vedas." There are also other appropriate quotes in Caitanya-bhagavata:

 

sei se vidyara phala janiha niscaya

krsna-pada-padme yadi citta-vrtti raya

 

"The perfect result of an education is the fixing of one's mind on the lotus feet of Krsna." (Adi 13.178)

 

'dig-vijaya kariba,'----vidyara karya nahe

isvare bhajile, sei vidya 'satya' kahe

 

"Conquering the world by means of material education is not desirable. If one engages himself in devotional service, his education is perfected." (Adi 13.173)

 

pade kene loka----krsna-bhakti janibare

se yadi nahila, tabe vidyaya ki kare

 

"The purpose of education is to understand Krsna and His devotional service. If one does not do so, then education is false." (Adi 12.49)

 

tahare se bali dharma, karma sadacara

isvare se priti janme sammata sabara

 

"Being cultured, educated, very active and religious means developing natural love for Krsna." (Antya 3.44) Everyone has dormant love for Krsna, and by culture and education that has to be awakened. That is the purpose of this Krsna consciousness movement. Once Lord Caitanya asked Sri Ramananda Raya what the best part of education was, and Ramananda Raya replied that the best part of education is advancement in Krsna

SB 4. 29.50

 

Also regardless of what anyone thinks about the vapuh of the acarya, here is what the acarya says about it:

 

 

 

 

C.C. Adi-lila Ch.1 Text 58

 

 

TEXT 58

 

 

jive saksat nahi tate guru caittya-rupe

siksa-guru haya krsna-mahanta-svarupe

 

 

SYNONYMS

 

 

jive--by the living entity; saksat--direct experience; nahi--there is not; tate--therefore; guru--the spiritual master; caittya-rupe--in the form of the Supersoul; siksa-guru--the spiritual master who instructs; haya--appears; krsna--Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead; mahanta--the topmost devotee; sva-rupe--in the form of.

 

 

TRANSLATION

 

 

Since one cannot visually experience the presence of the Supersoul, He appears before us as a liberated devotee. Such a spiritual master is none other than Krsna Himself.

 

 

PURPORT

 

 

It is not possible for a conditioned soul to directly meet Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but if one becomes a sincere devotee and seriously engages in devotional service, Lord Krsna sends an instructing spiritual master to show him favor and invoke his dormant propensity for serving the Supreme. The preceptor appears before the external senses of the fortunate conditioned soul, and at the same time the devotee is guided from within by the caittya-guru, Krsna, who is seated as the spiritual master within the heart of the living entity.

 

 

 

 

 

Cc. Adi 1.58

 

 

There is no need to read more into the word "guided" than what it actually means.

 

[Puru Das, das anudas]

 

<?xml:namespace prefix = o />

 

Siksa is necessary in all circumstances. Your term "living siksa guru" is one I also have trouble with. Guru is always "living" rather embodied in an earthly frame or not is immaterial. If you have his commentaries you have access to his association.

 

 

Reading the commentaries and books left by our acaryas is NOT identical with taking their physical vapuh association. Minimizing the importance of being in the physical proximity and hearing directly from the pure devotee is simply rtvk madness. Otherwise why didn't His Divine Grace just send his books around the world 17 times and stay in Vrdnavana doing his bhajana?

Because hearing from him directly was and is the most essential element for his followers. Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja very lucidly explained that you do not get "sadhu sanga" from any tape recorder. It is not all one, and rtvk fanatacism is a useless mental speculation that turns Krsna Consciousness into a sectarian fanatacism with tilaka. Bas!!!

I would vehemenately disagree here. I take the position that it is only the vani of the devotee that has the power to initiate disciples. Surely the body of the spiritual master cannot intiate anyone because being just a vehicle IT HAS NO INITIATIVE OF IT'S OWN. Having no intiative, becasue that is a quality of the soul proper, how then could IT ever initiate another living being?

Frankly I could care less what "your position" is, since it is so far out of line with guru, sadhu and shastra that the length of the devitation can't be measured. The rest of this statement

". . . I take the position that it is only the vani of the devotee that has the power to initiate disciples. Surely the body of the spiritual master cannot intiate anyone because being just a vehicle IT HAS NO INITIATIVE OF IT'S OWN. Having no intiative, becasue that is a quality of the soul proper, how then could IT ever initiate another living being."

defies logic, proper use of the English language and spits in the face of gaudiya siddhanta. It shows that your mind is something we all have to simply ignore and neglect. "

"Surely the body of the spiritual master cannot initiate anyone. . ."

From which cauldron of mental speculation have you drawn this spurious conclusion?. This statement should be deleted from cyber space so it stops polluting the subtle either.

Anyway tal fruit discussions go nowhere and it is time to be reminded of the famous Uncle Remus story of Brer Rabbit and the Tar baby.

http://www.otmfan.com/html/brertar.htm

There is no point is discussing guru tattva with anyone who makes up his own tattva and siddhanta by the dictates of his furtive imagination. Better to hide out inthe briar patch of harinama and sadhu sanga.

[theist]

Why do you persist in addressing me with this one issue Puru? Why by such a fanatic? Live your life and I will live mine. OK? Got it?

[krsna]

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada wrote:

 

"I don't read books, I read the author. I first see the author to

see if he's authentic or not. I am a proof reader. I always see what is

right and what is wrong. My father trained me in proofreading, but I am not

only a proofreader of the press. I am a proofreader of the world. I

proofread men: I see their faults and try to correct them. I am a

proofreader of religion also. I have appeared in the karkata lagna

(astrologically), so whenever I see anything undevotional I will act like a

karkata (a crab). If I see any so-called devotion which is not actually in

the true unalloyed spirit, I shall pierce it.":pray:

[Puru Das, das anudas]

 

Why do you persist in addressing me with this one issue ?

 

Because Srila Promod Puri Gosvami Maharaja said that "rtvk" means the death of our sampradaya. Because when you continue to polute cyberspace with your mental speculations you cannot expect silence from everyone on line. Because you always "draw first blood", as Rambo declared, and because everyone interested in Krsna Consciousness should be encouraged to hear from a sad guru, take initiation from such a guru and make spiritual progress.

 

 

Puru? Why by such a fanatic? Live your life and I will live mine. OK? Got it?

 

Call the dog bad and then hang him. Fanatic means no philosophy I never say anything on line that I can't prove with a quote from shastra or a reference from the vanih of our acaryas. I certainly got it, guru nistha that is, and have no intentions of ever giving it up. You want privacy then stay off line and do your bhajana privately. You chose to express yourself in a public forum, then expect antithesis to your thesis. Bas!!!

[theist]

I don,t request privacy but only freedom from a cyber stalker like you. Do you realize this has been going on since way back in the late ninties on VNN. That is 8 years plus of you posting the same quotes and never hearing the quotes that are offered in return.

 

You made one seeming friendly post to me on this thread and I made the mistake of responding which lead to another barage of copy and paste. My bad. I realize you must have a OCD and this is the form in which you express it.

 

You used to post the tar baby parable alot. A good one for sure. You Puru are my tar baby.

[krsna]

Krsna is the supreme person who is the reservoir of all knowledge.

 

Keep KRSNA in your mind always.

 

Then Krsna will give you Guru and Guru will give you KRSNA.

[Puru Das, das anudas]

 

I don,t request privacy but only freedom from a cyber stalker like you. Do you realize this has been going on since way back in the late ninties on VNN. That is 8 years plus of you posting the same quotes and never hearing the quotes that are offered in return.

Cyber stalker indeed! I rarely post at all. I would also point out that for 8 years I have consistantly quoted from shastra and the words of our acaryas to prove any point made. I POST under my own name. I AM NOT HIDING FROM ANYONE . On theother hand for more than 8 years you have refused to use anything but a pen name. Someone told me you are Maitreya from Seattle. Whoever you are, believe what you will but don't expect immunity when you spout apasiddhanta in a public forum like this, which invites discussions. Srila Krsna das Kaviraj and His Dvine Grace advise us in this regard:

TEXT 117

 

 

 

 

siddhanta baliya citte na kara alasa

 

 

 

iha ha-ite krsne lage sudrdha manasa

 

SYNONYMS

 

siddhanta--conclusion; baliya--considering; citte--in the mind; na kara--do not be; alasa--lazy; iha--this; ha-ite--from; krsne--in Lord Krsna; lage--becomes fixed; su-drdha--very firm; manasa--the mind.

TRANSLATION

 

A sincere student should not neglect the discussion of such conclusions, considering them controversial, for such discussions strengthen the mind. Thus one's mind becomes attached to Sri Krsna.

PURPORT

 

There are many students who, in spite of reading the Bhagavad-gita, misunderstand Krsna because of imperfect knowledge and conclude Him to be an ordinary, historical personality. This one must not do. One should be particularly careful to understand the truth about Krsna. If because of laziness one does not come to know Krsna conclusively, one will be misguided about the cult of devotion, like those who declare themselves advanced devotees and imitate the transcendental symptoms sometimes observed in liberated souls. Although the use of thoughts and arguments is a most suitable process for inducing an uninitiated person to become a devotee, neophytes in devotional service must always alertly understand Krsna through the vision of the revealed scriptures, the bona fide devotees and the spiritual master. Unless one hears about Sri Krsna from such authorities, one cannot make advancement in devotion to Sri Krsna. The revealed scriptures mention nine means of attaining devotional service, of which the first and foremost is hearing from authority. The seed of devotion cannot sprout unless watered by the process of hearing and chanting. One should submissively receive the transcendental messages from spiritually advanced sources and chant the very same messages for one's own benefit as well as the benefit of one's audience.

When Brahma described the situation of pure devotees freed from the culture of empiric philosophy and fruitive actions, he recommended the process of hearing from persons who are on the path of devotion. Following in the footsteps of such liberated souls, who are able to vibrate real transcendental sound, can lead one to the highest stage of devotion, and thus one can become a maha-bhagavata. From the teachings of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu to Sanatana Gosvami (Cc. Madhya 22.65) we learn:

 

 

 

sastra-yuktye sunipuna, drdha-sraddha yanra

 

 

 

'uttama-adhikari' sei taraye samsara

 

"A person who is expert in understanding the conclusion of the revealed scriptures and who fully surrenders to the cause of the Lord is actually able to deliver others from the clutches of material existence." Srila Rupa Gosvami, in his Upadesamrta (3), advises that to make rapid advancement in the cult of devotional service one should be very active and should persevere in executing the duties specified in the revealed scriptures and confirmed by the spiritual master. Accepting the path of liberated souls and the association of pure devotees enriches such activities.

Imitation devotees, who wish to advertise themselves as elevated Vaisnavas and who therefore imitate the previous acaryas but do not follow them in principle, are condemned in the words of Srimad-Bhagavatam (2.3.24) as stone-hearted. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura has commented on their stone-hearted condition as follows: bahir asru-pulakayoh sator api yad dhrdayam na vikriyeta tad asma-saram iti kanisthadhikarinam eva asru-pulakadi-mattve 'pi asma-sara-hrdayataya nindaisa. "Those who shed tears by practice but whose hearts have not changed are to be known as stone-hearted devotees of the lowest grade. Their imitation crying, induced by artificial practice, is always condemned." The desired change of heart referred to above is visible in reluctance to do anything not congenial to the devotional way. To create such a change of heart, conclusive discussion about Sri Krsna and His potencies is absolutely necessary. False devotees may think that simply shedding tears will lead one to the transcendental plane, even if one has not had a factual change in heart, but such a practice is useless if there is no transcendental realization. False devotees, lacking the conclusion of transcendental knowledge, think that artificially shedding tears will deliver them. Similarly, other false devotees think that studying books of the previous acaryas is unadvisable, like studying dry empiric philosophies. But Srila Jiva Gosvami, following the previous acaryas, has inculcated the conclusions of the scriptures in the six theses called the Sat-sandarbhas. False devotees who have very little knowledge of such conclusions fail to achieve pure devotion for want of zeal in accepting the favorable directions for devotional service given by self-realized devotees. Such false devotees are like impersonalists, who also consider devotional service no better than ordinary fruitive actions.”

Cc. Adi 2. 117

From what cauldron of misconception you boil up so many false conclusions is certainly a mystery.

 

You made one seeming friendly post to me on this thread and I made the mistake of responding which lead to another barage of copy and paste. My bad. I realize you must have a OCD and this is the form in which you express it. .

OCD? Enlighten me please with your analysis!!!

If you had kept to SBSST’s article there would have been no discussion only appreciation.

But you insist on throwing salk into sweet rice . Don’t be a cyber sissy and stop complaining like a wus. If the pan is too hot, get out. Leave cyberspace and find a briar patch for your sadhana and bhajana instead.

 

Once again with your condemnation of cut and paste from our authorities, you prove your aversion to guru, sadhu and shastra when the sastra doesn’t suit your personal misconception. Your problem not mine.

 

KC is not cafateria religion, pick this and reject that. Neither is it like ordering dinner from a menu in a (vegetarian ) chinese restaurant; Take one from column a, two from b, reject this or that. NEVER!!! As it is, as the acaryas have given it, as it will always be.

 

You used to post the tar baby parable alot. A good one for sure. You Puru are my tar baby.

Thank you for the compliment.I be chantin in the briar patch of Nabadwipa Parikrama

http://bvml.org/SBTP/SNM/index.html

while you be talking to yoself here on audarya, the forum from hell.

[theist]

 

Cyber stalker indeed! I rarely post at all. I would also point out that for 8 years I have consistantly quoted from shastra and the words of our acaryas to prove any point made. I POST under my own name. I AM NOT HIDING FROM ANYONE . On theother hand for more than 8 years you have refused to use anything but a pen name. Someone told me you are Maitreya from Seattle. Whoever you are, believe what you will but don't expect immunity when you spout apasiddhanta in a public forum like this, which invites discussions.

I used to post as Maitreya until I became aware that I was being confused with someone else therefore so as not to defame that person I took the monicker theist. Sorry you don't like it but then again who cares? lol

Do you think I am my name Puru? Do you think material designations like a name that are hung on us in this world of names is the actual self? I am the eternal self as are you.

I invite discussions but you don't discuss, you pontificate and hide behind volumns of copy and paste. What are YOU hiding from.

You constantly preach against just studying the books of the previous acaryas and quoting them but did you ever consider that you may be that person to the tenth power and that you are really preaching to your own self?

 

We all do that as we try to work out our problems. An example is a bhakta who is always criticizing women and attraction to them and telling everyone to avoid them. Of course he is really struggling with his own sex attraction and it gets exhibited as a drama on this outer plane.

 

 

Thank you for the compliment.I be chantin in the briar patch of Nabadwipa Parikrama

 

while you be talking to yoself here on audarya, the forum from hell.

If you were really in Nabadwipa in consciousness you wouldn't be attracted to enter a "forum from hell like Audarya" if that is how you feel about it. So the question then becomes why are you here? Think yourself on a mission to save us all with the potency of your preaching perhaps? Spare me your efforts and spend them on those that appreciate your preaching. I don't. So why do you always seek me out? Have you not yet learned that you don't preach to those that do not want to hear you? That is fanaticism. I am sure there are many here that share you perceptions. I am not one of them so better to talk to them. You can simply post what you consider to be a refutiation of anything and everything I say. No problem. But please stop addressing me. I am not interested in you or your spiritual master although I wish you well. You are the same fanatic to me as the street corner fire and brimstone Christians that follow people down the street insisting people hear their message rather they like it or not or how many times they say "no thanks" Get your hand off my head fanatic! Go work your exorcism on yourself instead.

 

[Guest guest]

Puru das anudas das, do you think your philosophy is really a truly spiritual philosophy of life?

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura wrote the words below in his English language book "The Bhagavata Lecture". His message is clear. He was promoting freedom of thought and not the blind-obedience that you demand from Theist.

 

Theist feels a connection with saints who lived in the past. Let it be.

 

 

========================

Two more principles characterize the Bhagavata, viz., liberty and progress of

the soul throughout eternity. The Bhagavata teaches us that God gives us truth

and He gave it to Vyasa, when we earnestly seek for it. Truth is eternal and

unexchausted. The soul receives a revelation when it is anxious for it. The souls

of the great thinkers of the by-gone ages, who now live spiritually, often

approach our inquiring spirit and assist it in its development. Thus Vyasa was

assisted by Narada and Brahma. Our Shastras, or in other words, books of thought

do not contain all that we could get from the infinite Father. No book is without

its errors. God's revelation is absolute truth, but it is scarcely received and

preserved in its natural purity. We have been advised in the 14th Chapter of

11th skandha of the Bhagavata to believe that truth when revealed is absolute, but

it gets the tincture of the nature of the receiver in course of time and is

converted into error by continual exchange of hands from age to age. New

revelations, therefore, are continually necessary in order to keep truth in its

original purity. We are thus warned to be careful in our studies of old authors,

however wise they are reputed to be. Here we have full liberty to reject the

wrong idea, which is not sanctioned by the peace of conscience. Vyasa was not

satisfied with what he collected in the Vedas, arranged in the Puranas and

composed in the Mahabharata. The peace of his conscience did not sanction his

labors. It told him from inside "No, Vyasa! you can't rest contented with the

erroneous picture of truth which was necessarily presented to you by the sages

of by-gone days! You must yourself knock at the door of the inexhaustible store

of truth from which the former ages drew their wealth. Go, go up to the

Fountain-head of truth where no pilgrim meets with disappointment of any

kind." Vyasa did it and obtained what he wanted. We have been all advised to

do so. Liberty then is the principle, which we must consider as the most

valuable gift of God. We must not allow ourselves to be led by those who lived

and thought before us. We must think for ourselves and try to get further truths

which are still undiscovered. In the 23rd text 21st Chapter 11th skandha of the

Bhagavata we have been advised to take the spirit of the Shastras and not the words.

The Bhagavata is therefore a religion of liberty, unmixed truth and absolute love.

[Puru Das, das anudas]

 

Puru das anudas das, do you think your philosophy is really a truly spiritual philosophy of life?

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura wrote the words below in his English language book "The Bhagavata Lecture". His message is clear. He was promoting freedom of thought and not the blind-obedience that you demand from Theist.

 

Theist feels a connection with saints who lived in the past. Let it be.. . .

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura never advocated mental speculation or distortion of gaudiya siddhanta. He also wrote:

 

"The people of India and other countries may be divided into two categories- the asslike and the swanlike. Of these two, the asslike are in the majority. The swanlike are in the minority. Swanlike people abstract the purport of the scriptures for their own advancement and thus benefit themselves

 

Everyone has the right to discuss spiritual topics. Yet people are divided into three categories according to their qualifications. Those who do not posses independent power of discrimination are in the first category and are called neophytes, or those with soft faith. They have no alternative to faith. If they do not accept whatever the compilers of the scriptures write as the order of the Lord, then they fall down. They are qualified only for understanding the gross meanings of the science of Krsna; they have no qualification for understanding the subtle meanings. Until they gradually advance by good association and instruction, they should try to advance under the shelter of faith. Those who have not yet succeeded in connecting faith with argument are second grade persons, or madhyama-adhikaris. And those who are expert in connecting these two are perfect in all respects. They are able to attain perfection by utilizing material resources in their independent endeavors. They are called topmost persons, or uttama-adhikaris. . ."

 

from http://bvml.org/SBTP/nsvd.htm

 

And blind following is not advocated by myself or my spiritual master, His Divine Grace Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada has written:

 

 

Nothing should be accepted blindly; everything should be accepted with care and with caution. . . . Satyam, truthfulness, means that facts should be presented as they are for the benefit of others. Facts should not be misrepresented. According to social conventions, it is said that one can speak the truth only when it is palatable to others. But that is not truthfulness. The truth should be spoken in a straight and forward way, so that others will understand actually what the facts are. If a man is a thief and if people are warned that he is a thief, that is truth. Although sometimes the truth is unpalatable, one should not refrain from speaking it. Truthfulness demands that the facts be presented as they are for the benefit of others. That is the definition of truth

Bg. AS It IS Macmillan version 1974 Ch. 10, 4-5 purport

 

http://asitis.com/

[Puru Das, das anudas]

 

. . . If you were really in Nabadwipa in consciousness you wouldn't be attracted to enter a "forum from hell like Audarya" if that is how you feel about it. So the question then becomes why are you here?

 

 

If you must know then simply be informed that the morning posts were so that I could sit still and digest breakfast. The ones now are so that I can digest lunch. I can't walk or exert myself directly after eating. Posting on this forum is a good inducement to scrutinize Srila Prabhupada's purports for clarifying and illuminating observations from his Divine realization.

Think yourself on a mission to save us all with the potency of your preaching perhaps? Spare me your efforts and spend them on those that appreciate your preaching. I don't. So why do you always seek me out?

 

 

This sounds a bit paranoid prabhu. It is not that I ever want your asociation or ever post anything expecting you to accept it. SOmetimes your remarks just stick out like a boil on a butt. My posts, now and in the past are for those like minded individuals who value guru, sadhu and shastra above any conidtioned soul's "considered opinions."

 

 

Have you not yet learned that you don't preach to those that do not want to hear you? That is fanaticism. I am sure there are many here that share you perceptions. I am not one of them so better to talk to them. You can simply post what you consider to be a refutiation of anything and everything I say. No problem. But please stop addressing me.

 

You think you need to tell me about the 9th offense to the holy name? I never discus any rasika topics with the likes of you. I never answer your posts with any hope of influencing you in the least. My posts are for the lovers of our guru parampara, that is all.

 

 

 

 

 

I am not interested in you or your spiritual master although I wish you well. You are the same fanatic to me as the street corner fire and brimstone Christians that follow people down the street insisting people hear their message rather they like it or not or how many times they say "no thanks" Get your hand off my head fanatic! Go work your exorcism on yourself instead.

 

 

 

 

That is the bottom line. You have no interest in the association of pure Vaisnavas exactly as mentioned in the already quoted purport C. Adi 2.117

 

". . . False devotees who have very little knowledge of such conclusions fail to achieve pure devotion for want of zeal in accepting the favorable directions for devotional service given by self-realized devotees."