weekly definition:Ishwara

January 29, 2007

Ishwara.

In advaita Ishwara ultimately is the One, non-dual entity.

>From a jiva's standpoint we can understand Him at two levels.

One level is as Bhagawan, as Prabhu, the Lord and Master of all

beings, as the bestower of the fruits of ones actions – karmaphaladata.

This level of understanding is indeed common to all dualisitic faiths

and philosophies and has its own degree of paramount importance in

ensuring the growth of the individual and ripening his ego for the

higher truth.

Another level of understanding Ishwara is as the substratum or truth

about Everything and Everyone and that includes me, meaning He is the

none other than the Truth about me, or I the Self am non-different

from Him – he is Akshara Purusha, or Parabrahman or Paramatman, or

Atman or Brahman – all synonyms.

Let us use the dream analogy to try and understand this.

I weave a vast world in my dream. This dream is created out of myself

and takes place in myself and ultimately resolves into myself. I am

the efficient cause of this dream. I am also the material cause for

this dream. Every river, mountain, planet, star, animate and inanimate

objects in this dream all are Me, the substratum alone. Yet while

these are in Me, I am unrelated to them. Thousands of these dream

universes can arise in me and can resolve unto me, millions of big

bangs can come and go, yet I the Creator/Sustainer/Destroyer am

completely untouched.

Now for an individual in the dream, I am the Lord of the Dreamworld.

If I had control over the activities in the dreamworld, then I am the

only recourse for anyone in the dream. I am the only One who can save

them and the entire world's activities are governed by laws

orchestrated by Me alone.

How do I the uninvolved One create as it were this dreamworld. By a

power that is both intrinsic and nonseparate from me – this power is

Maya. Maya is not a "separate" thing and hence does not enjoy

independent existence. You cannot distill Maya out of me and try to

see how I am without Maya or how Maya is without Me. On the other hand

Maya is not nonexistent as long as the dream enjoys its existence

either in an expressed or potential latent form.

What gives each individual in the dream a sense of separateness from

the whole, and an inability to perceive a nondistinction between

himself and the world that this dream individual perceives? It is

ignorance about himself. What to the individual is ignorance or avidya

is none other than the same principle responsible for the dream itself

which is Maya. The former pertains to the poor helpless individual in

the dream, the latter pertains to the "Creator" of that dreamworld, Me.

Now if the entire concept of the dream, the Creation is removed, then

what exists is Me alone.

This is a helpful way to understand Ishwara.

Ishwara is a mayavi in the sense of being a wielder of Maya –

understand again though that this Maya is not a "separate" thing that

He wields like a sceptre.

The world that we seemingly cognize and have to deal with is mithya –

not in the sense of an illusion, but in the sense of not having a

substantive reality other than its material cause which is Ishwara.

What is mithya is our seeing it as different with such surety and with

no second thought whatsoever in assuming its validity. This is the

power of Maya.

This world is not a haphazard mutant entity. It is sheer intelligence

in and through.

You take any phenomenon in this world and what you find is infinite

layers of intelligence.

An infinitelsmally small cell has such complexly intricate

intelligence interwoven into every facet of its structure and function

that if every scientist in the world were to spend every living moment

trying to analyze it with every ounce of effort time and resources for

the next hundred years they would still be where we are today – an

infinite distance away from understanding it. That is the beauty or

marvel of infinity – or Divinity – it is always "ten fingers yonder"

Now, one has to account for this order. This is the basis for the

famous watchmaker analogy. A Design implies a Designer. If you asked

me how did a watch get built and I tell you pieces of glass and metal

just got built by itself and started ticking along with meticulous

precision, you will (hopefully) wish me luck with my future therapy

sessions.

And yet when it comes to the most amazing design spectacle ever, some

people still have a hard time coming to terms with accepting an

efficient cause.

Having said that to assign this status to a "person" only, be it

Krishna or Shiva or Vishnu, and giving a separate status to everything

other than this personality is also immature.

The example Vedanta uses is that of a spider – urnannabhih – just a

spider creates a web and is both the efficient and material cause for

the web.

Why is this important? Once we expand our understanding to this, then

everything in Creation becomes sacrosanct. A flower is now not "just"

a flower – it is saakshaat Ishwara – hence it is in our tradition that

a flower as Prasad is first applied to the eyes before the lady will

put it in the hair – it signifies that this flower is as sacred to me

as my own eyes.

Acknowledging Ishwara in the manner in each and every facet of

Creation one appreciates that nothing – neither here nor yonder – is

separate from Him. "Ishawasya idam sarvam" And in this acknowledgement

is sown the seeds of surrender – because if nothing is separate from

Him, then I am certainly not separate from Him. In fact the only thing

that separates me from Him is my own notion of separateness, which is

none other than that 600 pound gorilla, my Ego or I-sense. This is

what I need to transcend by acquiring the right knowledge about myself

– and in this Ishwara and his Order which again is Ishwara alone will

come to my rescue. "The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my

deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and

the horn of my salvation, and my high tower."

In His own words - "Manmanaa bhava madbhakto madyaajee maam namaskuru;

Maamevaishyasi satyam te pratijaane priyo'si me" Always think of Me

and become My devotee. Worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus

you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are

My very dear friend.

January 30, 2007

Namaste, dear Dr. Shyam-ji:

I guess it took a posting on Ishwara to bring me back

out of my seclusion :-) I have been slowly rereading

some of the posts from the beginning of the year and

am hopeful that the import will instill itself into

my mundane mind!

I had written a small verse some time ago at the request

of Bhuvaneshvar-ji of this list, who maintains the

Proverbiallinguist . He had given me

a quote, Sivuda:gjna le:nide: chi:maina: kuttadu...

asked me to write on it and it had resulted in the

following...some thoughts on surrender. I hope

I am not too far off the mark and I hope you don't

mind my sharing :-)

http://www.omshaantih.com/Poetry/Fait/Accompli.htm

I notice that there have been a few posts from the

moderators wondering whether any of us is reading

the Advaita for beginners series. Please do not

stop and please do have faith that there are those

of us on the list who cherish and appreciate what

is being offered to us. Speaking for myself, I do

not post much because I am still struggling with

terminology. This does not mean I am not reading

or that I am not benefitting from what is being

written. And may I say, that there is no hurry, so

no need to move too quickly!!! Further, repetition

is always good, and review never hurts the student

either. Namaskarams to all who are contributing

their time to this undertaking.

With deep respect and appreciation,

Joyce

January 30, 2007

This is a very inspiring definition. I truly loved the way the

information was presented. I was surprised at how it touched my

emotions.

thankyou Shyam.

advaitin, "shyam_md" <shyam_md wrote:

>

> In His own words - "Manmanaa bhava madbhakto madyaajee maam

namaskuru;

> Maamevaishyasi satyam te pratijaane priyo'si me" Always think of Me

> and become My devotee. Worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus

> you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are

> My very dear friend.

>

January 30, 2007

Namaste dear Shyam-ji:

Your definition is quite comprehensive and you have touched almost

all aspects of Ishwara very coherently. It was quite refreshing and

you truly seem to have got His Grace and Blessings. Thank you very

much and please forward to offer definitions for other advaitic terms

The postings of Shyam on Ishwara can be further enhanced by hearing

the Glories of Ishwara directly from Ishwara. In Bhagavad Gita,

Chapter 10 Bhagawan Sri Krishna spells out His glories to Arjuna

with great details. The entire chapter provides explicitly His

Glories and implicitly provides pictogram of the Lord. The first

two verses of this chapter provides some profound message about

Ishwara by the Ishwara.

Sri Bhagavaan Uvaacha:

Bhooya eva mahaabaaho shrinu me paramam vachah;

Yatte'ham preeyamaanaaya vakshyaami hitakaamyayaa.

The Blessed Lord said:

1. Again, O mighty-armed Arjuna, listen to My supreme word which I

shall declare to thee who art beloved, for thy welfare! The all-

compassionate Lord in His mercy wants to encourage Arjuna and cheer

him up, and so He Himself comes forward to give him instructions

without any request having been made by Arjuna.

Na me viduh suraganaah prabhavam na maharshayah;

Ahamaadirhi devaanaam maharsheenaam cha sarvashah.

2. Neither the hosts of the gods nor the great sages know My origin;

for, in every way I am the source of all the gods and the great

sages.

In verse 1, the words 'Paramam Vacah' refer to the Lords teaching in

this chapter which is intended to unfold the secret of His Virtues,

Glory and Truth. By exhorting Arjuna to hear it once again, the Lord

seeks to convey that the truth relating to Bhakti or devotion to Him

is exceptionally difficult to understand; hence he should hear it

with great Attention, Reverence and Love, considering it most

essential to Hear it Again and Again. By using the

adjective 'Priyamanaya' for Arjuna, the Lord says in

effect, 'Arjuna, the love you bear in your heart for Me is

exceedingly great. He further tells him that you listen to My words

with utmost Reverence and Love, relishing them as nectar. Therefore

without the least hesitation, and even without you asking, I am

ready to unravel to you the Mystery of My most Secret Virtues, Glory

and Truth. I am revealing these secrets because of your love to me

and my love to you. The use of the word Hitakamyaya indicates that

Arjuna's love and devotion had filled the Lord's heart with

compassion for Arjuna. When the devotee's heart gets filled with

love for Ishwara, simultaneously Ishwara's heart also gets equally

filled with love for the devotee. The apparent presence of duality

gets dissolved with the exhibition of Ekandabhakti. Ishwara in this

verse conveys in subtle language that those whose hearts filled

with `ONLY Ishwara' can only understand His Virtues, Glories, and

Truth without an iota of confusion!

In verse 2, Ishwara declares that the only REAL source of His

Glories is HE Only. God manifests Himself by His own incomparable

Yogic power in the forms of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva (Rudra) for the

creation, maintenance and destruction of the universe respectively.

He appears in our midst from time to time in different divine forms

such as Sri Rama, Sri Krishna, etc., to establish righteousness on a

firm footing. (see verses 7 and 8 of chapter 4). The word

Prabhavam refers to all these manifestations of God. On what

particular occasions, in what particular forms, for what particular

reasons and in what particular manner does God manifest Himself are

divine secrets the reality of which is not known even to the gods

and sages, much less to ordinary men of the world. The

word 'Suraganah' stands for the various classes or types of gods

recognized by the sastras, such as the eleven Rudras, the eight

Vasus, the twelve Adityas, Prajapati, the forty-nine Maruts, the

twin Asvinikumaras, Indra and so on. And the word Maharsayah should

be taken to refer to the seven great sages - Marici, Angira, Atri,

Pulastya, Pulaha, Kratu and Vasistha. On subtle terms, the Lord

seeks to convey that the gods and all sages from whom this world has

evolved have all originated from Him. He is both their material and

instrumental cause; and whatever learning, wisdom, energy, luster

and power are possessed by them are all derived from Him. In

conclusion, the Lord says that ISHWARA ALONE CAN DRAW A CLEAR

PICTURE OF ISHWARA!

With my warmest regards,

Ram Chandran

Note: Members interested to read the past discussions on Gita

Satsangh chapter can look at the list archives (See November,

December postings of year 2005)

advaitin, "shyam_md" <shyam_md wrote:

>

> In His own words - "Manmanaa bhava madbhakto madyaajee maam

namaskuru;

> Maamevaishyasi satyam te pratijaane priyo'si me" Always think of Me

> and become My devotee. Worship Me and offer your homage unto Me.

Thus

> you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you

are

> My very dear friend.

January 30, 2007

Today is Mahatma Gandhi's death Anniversary ( He died on Jan 30,

1948) and therefore it is Divine providence that i should read

Gandhiji's favorite verse from the Isha Upanishad in Dr Shyamji's

weekly definition of Ishwara! Thanks so much Shyamji for THE

wobderful first line 'ishavasya sarvam idam; .......

the complete verse is as follows

ishavasyam idam sarvam

yat kincha jagatyam jagat

tena tyaktena bhunjitha

ma gridhah kasya svid dhanam

Everything animate or inanimate that is within the universe is

controlled and owned by the Lord. One should therefore accept only

those things necessary for himself, which are set aside as his

quota, and one must not accept other things, knowing well to Whom

they belong.

This was gandhiji's personal philosophy also ! Gandhiji used to

say " If all the scriptures in the World were reduced to ashes ,

and only the First verse in the Isha upanishad survived , Hinduism

would survive . " Only a karma phala tyagi could make a powerful

statement like this !

The isha upanishad has 19 mantras. In one of the verses , it

describes the nonmaterial aspects of the Supreme being , as when it

describes the nonmaterisal aspects of the Supreme being , as when it

describes Him as One who walks but does not walk.

tad ejati tan naijati

tad dure tad vantike

tad antarasya sarvasya

tad u sarvasyasya bahyataha (verse 5)

The Supreme Lord walks and does not walk. He is far away, but He is

very near as well. He is within everything, and again He is outside

of everything

Shyamji , may i recall my favorite verse from the same upanishad ?

yas tu sarvani bhutany

atmany evanupashyati

sarva-bhuteshu chatmanam

tato na vijugupsate

A person who sees everything in relation to the supreme Lord, and

sees all entities as His parts and parcels, and who sees the Supreme

Lord within everything, never hates anything, nor any being.

Yes ! This is the state of an atma-jnani and a parama bhakta !

may i also recall a verse from Srimad bhagvat gita while on this

subject of 'Ishwara' ?

brahma-bhutah prasannatma

na socati na kanksati

samah sarvesu bhutesu

mad-bhaktim labhate param (18:54)

One who is thus transcendentally situated at once realizes the

Supreme Brahman. He never laments nor desires to have anything; he

is equally disposed to every living entity. In that state he attains

pure devotional service unto Me.

YES! Shyamji! Even a great thinker like Mahatma Gandhiji , though

an Advaitin , in every sense of the word , started the day with

prayer and ended the day with prayer ! Gandhiji used to say 'The

biggest of karmayogis never gives up devotional songs or worship. "

On this day dedicated to the Memory of our father of the nation ,

Mahatma Gandhiji , it is my pleasure to recall the following lines

from his favorite bhajan

"Ishwara Allah tere naam,

Sab ko sanmati de Bhagavan "

Hindus address you as 'Ishwar' and muslims worship you as 'allah' -

grant us good thinking , oh my lord !

ps : btw , shyamji - flower represents 'prakriti' in Tantra , one

never even throws a 'flower' at a woman ... She is to be treated

with utmost reverance ! smile ...

-- In advaitin, "shyam_md" <shyam_md wrote:

>

> Ishwara.

> In advaita Ishwara ultimately is the One, non-dual entity.

> From a jiva's standpoint we can understand Him at two levels.

> One level is as Bhagawan, as Prabhu, the Lord and Master of all

> beings, as the bestower of the fruits of ones actions –

karmaphaladata.

>

January 31, 2007

Namaste:

Let me continue my previous post on the subject matter of Ishwara

from what is being said in Bhagavad Gita. As many of you already

know that a complete description of "Everything that one wants to

know about Ishwara" is available in chapters 7 to 12. (Chapters 1 to

6 describes Tvam, chapters 7 to 12 Tat and chapters 13 to 18

synchronize(asi) the mahavakya – tat tvam asi). The verses 21 to 23

of chapter 7 link the connection between "Shraddha and Ishwara." No

understanding of Ishwara is possible without an iota of Shraddha.

Shraddha is not just faith but it represents the supreme devotion

with ne plus ul-tra of conviction. Honestly Shraddha can't be

described by words and an understanding of Shraddha also requires

the Grace of Ishwara.

Yo yo yaam yaam tanum bhaktah shraddhayaarchitum icchati;

Tasya tasyaachalaam shraddham taameva vidadhaamyaham.

21. Whatsoever form any devotee desires to worship with faith—that

(same) faith of his I make firm and unflinching.

Swami Dayananda Saraswati in the notes that he prepared for the Home-

study of Gita provides some profound explanation to the verse and

they are given below:

" The Lord says `tasya acalam shraddham vidadhami aham. The

important thing here is shraddha. Earlier Krsna had said that, the

one who has shraddha gains knowledge of the identity of the

individual and Ishwara — shraddhavan labhate jnanam. In this verse

he says whatever shraddha he now has, that, I make it firm,

unshakeable, for him — tasya acalam shraddham vidadhami aham. For

the one whose shraddha manifests as a worship of a particular devata

for a particular result, I make his shraddha firm. How? By giving

the results. Suppose someone performs a particular ritual and he

does not get the promised result, then his shraddha will quickly

disappear. I make sure that it does not by giving the results. They

are doing karmas for which results are to be given. That result I

give. Even though they are worshipping only a fraction of me, even

though they don't worship me totally, still I make firm whatever

shraddha they have. I am available in the particular form of devata

that they invoke. No devata is separate from Me but I am more than

these devatas. The difficulty is that these devotees think that this

particular devata is Ishwara. But I do not disturb that at all. I

give them results only according to their shraddha. If I were to

interfere and tell them, `I am you,' it would not help because they

are not ready for it. Even if the Lord appears before such people,

they will ask for a promotion. They already have a certain firmness

in their shraddha."

This verse provides the clue why we have difficulty in understanding

the "Ishwara." To understand Ishwara that we require the " Ishwara

Kadacham – the Grace of the Lord" that provides the Shraddha through

which Ishwara gets revealed! The level of Shraddha determines the

level of our understanding of Ishwara. The next two verses confirms

how the transactions get completed according to the desires of the

seeker.

Sa tayaa shraddhayaa yuktastasyaaraadhanameehate;

Labhate cha tatah kaamaan mayaiva vihitaan hi taan.

22. Endowed with that faith, he engages in the worship of that

(form), and from it he obtains his desire, these being verily

ordained by Me (alone).

In this verse the Lord shows that the devotee worships the deity of

his choice equipped with the faith stabilized by Him according to

the rules laid down in the scriptures, and as a reward for such

worship obtains from the deity only such of his coveted enjoyments

as have been preordained by the Lord. The celestials have not been

authorized to give either more or less than what is ordained by the

Lord. This verse declares that the Lord is the Karmapaladata –

provider of the results for an action. (See also verse 47 of chapter

2 for a greater explanation of Karma Yoga and Karmapaladata).

The next verse contains the profound message – What you get is what

you deserve?. Those who aspire for small finite things get only that

and those who seek the ultimate only gets the ultimate!

Antavattu phalam teshaam tadbhavatyalpamedhasaam;

Devaan devayajo yaanti madbhaktaa yaanti maamapi.

23. Verily the reward (fruit) that accrues to those men of small

intelligence is finite. The worshippers of the gods go to them, but

My devotees come to Me.

The worshippers of gods who are "men of small intelligence" referred

to in this verse are far superior to the vile men who while

abstaining from the worship of God are engaged in sinful acts. They

are certainly inferior to the devotees of God and deficient in

intellect inasmuch as they worship the other deities as apart from

God, and that too under the prompting of desires and for obtaining

objects of enjoyment. Had their intellect not been deficient, they

would have certainly grasped the truth that it is God Himself who in

the form of so many deities receives all kinds of worship and

oblations offered into the sacred fire that God alone is the supreme

Lord of all (V. 29; IX. 24). It is because of this deficiency of

intellect that they obtain an utterly insignificant and perishable

reward for their sacrificial performances and other stupendous

undertakings involving such arduous labor. Had they been wise and

taken over the worship of God Himself with a sense of His glory,

they could have attained Him!

In conclusion, I say that the only ingredient for us to understand

the Brahman either the Saguna Brahman (Ishwara) or Nirguna Brahman

is Shraddha. Also everything that we need to know about the Brahman

is contained within the Bhagavad Gita in simple and elegant 700

verses. For any understanding, whether it is Gita, the Upanishads or

the Vedas, we need Sharaddha. Our doubts and confusion just confirm

our lack of Shraddha and the Lord is the only one who can provide

the Sharaddha and the understanding through Self-Revealation!

with my warmest regards,

Ram Chandran

advaitin, "Ram Chandran" <ramvchandran

wrote:

>

February 1, 2007

Namaste,

I think I am confused. Or at least want to make sure I am not.

Please clarify for me the distinction, if there is any at all no matter

how nuanced, between the use of the name "Ishwara" and the name

"Brahman." I thought after reading the initial definition that Ishwara

encompasses both the transcendent, unmanifested, eternal Pure

Consciousness of Brahman, and the more immanent, manifest aspects of

Brahman. But in his latest post, Sri Ramji seems to be indicating that

Ishwara is used in reference only to the more manifest aspects by

appending "Ishwara" to the term Saguna Brahman, and not also to the term

Nirguna Brahman.

Thank you very much.

Namaste,

Neil

advaitin, "Ram Chandran" <ramvchandran

wrote:

>

> In conclusion, I say that the only ingredient for us to understand

> the Brahman either the Saguna Brahman (Ishwara) or Nirguna Brahman

> is Shraddha.

>

> with my warmest regards,

>

> Ram Chandran

>

February 1, 2007

advaitin, "nlg108108" <nlg_108 wrote:

>

> Namaste,

>

> I think I am confused. Or at least want to make sure I am not.

>

> Please clarify for me the distinction, if there is any at all no

matter

> how nuanced, between the use of the name "Ishwara" and the name

> "Brahman." I thought after reading the initial definition that

Ishwara

> encompasses both the transcendent, unmanifested, eternal Pure

> Consciousness of Brahman, and the more immanent, manifest aspects of

> Brahman. But in his latest post, Sri Ramji seems to be indicating

that

> Ishwara is used in reference only to the more manifest aspects by

> appending "Ishwara" to the term Saguna Brahman, and not also to the

term

> Nirguna Brahman.

>

Namaste Niel-ji

Brahman is nirguNa, attributeless; is not the predicate of anything,

cannot be pointed at, is neither this nor that – and thus it goes on.

So there is no way of `worshipping' it. No, we cannot even talk about

that except by giving it a name, though not a form. Therefore

Upanishads give it a name `tat', just for purposes of referring to it

and to say that `tat' has no attributes.

But our intellect wants to do something with the Almighty Supreme. A

worship, a prayer, a meditation, an offering or whatever. All these

involve a duality of the worshipper and the worshipped. The moment we

think of Brahman as an object of worship or prayer or meditation, im

mediately, the concept of brahman is jeopardized. Thus the intellect

has created brahman with attributes – a saguna brahman.

The very fact that our intellect has come in the picture implies that

mAyA has done its job. It is mAyA's effect that there is an intellect

and we begin to think of objects through our intellect. Thus Brahman,

with the upAdhi (impact, coating, influence, superposition,

covering, conditioning, ... - - choose your word) of mAyA, is

called saguNa brahman. That saguNa brahman is the Ishvara. Now

Ishvara has all the superlative qualities that any religion

associates with Almighty God. But mAyA did not create Ishvara. It is

Ishvara that created the mAyA. MayA is in His control. It is like a

snake having poison but is never affected by its poison. Ishvara is

not affected by His mAyA.

PraNAms to all advaitins

profvk

February 2, 2007

Pranams

While it is true that saguna brahman and nirguna

brahman are two separate terms, they do not refer to

two entities.

They are just two levels of understanding pertaining

to the same vastu.

What is satyam about Ishwara is satyam about you -the

jiva. And that satyam is the vastu Brahman.

There arent two omnisicent eternal limitless entities.

There cannot be.

What prevents us from understanding or appreciating

the infinite as our own svarupa is our Ego which is

the handiwork of avidya.

As long as the Ego -or I-sense is functional - it has

to relate to the infinite as a finite, to the Creator

as the created, to the bestower of fruits as the

recipient or as the do-er.

Once the ahankara is sublated, the I-sense has been

understood to be an illusion, the sense of

separateness from the very same vastu vanishes. What

remains is just Is-ness, the timeless eternal truth.

Division is ever in terms of an understanding on my

part -the vastu is ever One, nondual.

Hari OM

Shyam

--- "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk > wrote:

> advaitin, "nlg108108"

> <nlg_108 wrote:

> >

> > Namaste,

> >

> > I think I am confused. Or at least want to make

> sure I am not.

> >

> > Please clarify for me the distinction, if there is

> any at all no

> matter

> > how nuanced, between the use of the name "Ishwara"

> and the name

> > "Brahman." I thought after reading the initial

> definition that

> Ishwara

> > encompasses both the transcendent, unmanifested,

> eternal Pure

> > Consciousness of Brahman, and the more immanent,

> manifest aspects of

> > Brahman. But in his latest post, Sri Ramji seems

> to be indicating

> that

> > Ishwara is used in reference only to the more

> manifest aspects by

> > appending "Ishwara" to the term Saguna Brahman,

> and not also to the

> term

> > Nirguna Brahman.

> >

>

> Namaste Niel-ji

>

> Brahman is nirguNa, attributeless; is not the

> predicate of anything,

> cannot be pointed at, is neither this nor that – and

> thus it goes on.

>

> So there is no way of `worshipping' it. No, we

> cannot even talk about

> that except by giving it a name, though not a form.

> Therefore

> Upanishads give it a name `tat', just for purposes

> of referring to it

> and to say that `tat' has no attributes.

>

> But our intellect wants to do something with the

> Almighty Supreme. A

> worship, a prayer, a meditation, an offering or

> whatever. All these

> involve a duality of the worshipper and the

> worshipped. The moment we

> think of Brahman as an object of worship or prayer

> or meditation, im

> mediately, the concept of brahman is jeopardized.

> Thus the intellect

> has created brahman with attributes – a saguna

> brahman.

>

> The very fact that our intellect has come in the

> picture implies that

> mAyA has done its job. It is mAyA's effect that

> there is an intellect

> and we begin to think of objects through our

> intellect. Thus Brahman,

> with the upAdhi (impact, coating, influence,

> superposition,

> covering, conditioning, ... - - choose your word)

> of mAyA, is

> called saguNa brahman. That saguNa brahman is the

> Ishvara. Now

> Ishvara has all the superlative qualities that any

> religion

> associates with Almighty God. But mAyA did not

> create Ishvara. It is

> Ishvara that created the mAyA. MayA is in His

> control. It is like a

> snake having poison but is never affected by its

> poison. Ishvara is

> not affected by His mAyA.

>

> PraNAms to all advaitins

> profvk

>

Want to start your own business?

Learn how on Small Business.

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February 2, 2007

Pranams

Thank you for sharing that beautiful poem.

It serves as an inspiration for me to elaborate about

the concept of surrender or sharanagati.

One of the many seeming paradoxes in the Gita is the

issue of self-effort vs surrender - it takes some

understanding to resolve the seeming contradiction

here.

Surrender involves the surrendering entity and a thing

that this entity currently possesses and can or has

the capacity to surrender.

So when we say "Surrender to God" it is easy to

understand who is doing the surrendering - it is of

course me, the jiva.

But what can I surrender?

Let us see what i have, what is mine?

This body is certainly not "mine" - i had nothing to

do with its creation

The wealth and possessions i have belonged to someone

else and just happen to have come my way. Being a very

temporary "borrower" of them, i certainly cannot claim

them as mine to be surrendered.

When this body itself is not mine, my relations are

certainly not mine.

Is there nothing that is mine that can then be

surrendered?

Fortunately there is.

It is the very sense of "mine"ness or "i"ness

This is most certainly mine.

The consequences of this "I"ness such as smallness,

fear, desire, anger, jealousy, sadness, despondency,

etc are also certainly mine.

So, yes, there is one thing "i" can triumphantly lay

claim to be mine, - and can happily surrender to

Ishwara - and that is this ahankara. In fact this

simple fact is what all of spirituality and sutras and

teachings and preachings all boild down to

surrender the finite i-ness

and

gain the infinite.

How to surrender this ahankara.

It is an illusory thing - in the Ramayan Ravan while

praying to Lord Shiva, cuts his head off repeatedly

only to find another pop back-on. This indicates the

seeming difficulty in "surrendering" the i-sense.

Well there are three levels of doing this..

Action, words and thought - kaayikam vaachikam and

maanasam.

Surrender in action is by means of karmayoga.

Surrender in words is by means of upasana.

Surrender in mind is by means of atmavichara.

Let us take karmayoga first.

In a nutshell,

“yad yad karma karomi tad tad akhilam shambo

tavaradhanam”

- any action I do is not for my sake but for the sake

of Ishwara, as a token of worship to Ishwara.

So whatever it is that I do as a active member of

society, the various roles I am called upon to play,

are opportunities for me to be an instrument in His

hands. And if am His instrument, then let whatever I

do have the fragrance of the deep love and gratitude

that I feel towards Him.

If at this point in time I am called upon to be a

parent, then let me understand that role to me an

instrument of Ishwara entrusted with that duty; if it

is an employee in an organization, then let me

understand that role to me an instrument of Ishwara

entrusted with that duty. The Sun is an instrument,

the Seas an instrument, and I, this infinitesimal

jiva, an instrument, of the Order that is Ishwara. So

everything I do has two aspects, an unchanging aspect

that has to do with the action being dedicated to my

Self, the antaryami, Ishwara. Then what needs to be

done needs to be done. And what will happen will

happen. This frees me from a sense of ownership in the

action and in turn frees me from the results of that

action. What accrues to me will be in perfect sync

with the Order that is Ishwara, and is nothing else

but his “prasada” his Blessing.

In upasana I praise Him and His creation. Why? Does

Ishwara need any praise? Of course not. But in

praising Him I acknowledge His Omniscience, His

Omnipresence, His Omnipotence and in this

acknowledgement the “I” that is my Ego progressively

gets sublimated. This is the true spirit seen in any

sahasranama – for example in the famous Vishnu

sahasranama “Bhoo padau yasya nabhir viyadasuranila

chandra suryau cha netre Karnavasa sirodhaumugamabhi

dhahano yasya vasteyamabhdhi; Anthastham yasya viswam

sura nara khaga go bhogi gandharva dhaityai, Chitram

ram ramyathe tham thribhuvana vapusham vishnumeesam

namami”

I bow before that God, Vishnu Who is the lord of three

worlds, Who has earth as his feet,Who has air as his

soul, Who has sky as his belly,Who has moon and sun

as eyes,

Who has the four directions as ears,Who has the land

of gods as head, Who has fire as his mouth,Who has sea

as his stomach, And in whose belly play and enjoy,

Gods, men birds, animals, Serpent men, Gandharvas and

Asuras.

Thus we describe (and visualize) Him as the Viraat, as

the sky, the moon, the sun, the sea – and what about

me? When all this is nothing but Him, then do I even

stand a chance? Thus alone does my ego slowly melt

away in the incandescence of bhakti or devotion.

Finally sharanagati at the mental level. This is none

other than atma vichara – an enquiry into the Self.

This being a subtle exercise, the ego already needs to

have ripened by both surrender in action as well as

surrender in upasana. Now the ego is ready to face its

final and complete annihilation, and that is by a

direct enquiry into its very core, a questioning of

its very existence. And in this we are once again

helped by the benevolent Mother Shruti who in stating

a fact “tat tvam asi” helps us understand the eternal

truth about our true and only Self. This very

understanding when crystallized into selfrealization

renders our false Ego lifeless and formless. This then

is the Ultimate surrender. The Ego is dead. It

realized it was never born to begin with. What Is is

what ever Is.

“Na Mrityu Na Shanka Na Me Jati Bhedah Pita Naiva Me

Naiva Mata Na Janma

Na Bandhur Na Mitre Gurur Naiva Shishyah Chidananda

Rupa Shivoham Shivoham

Aham Nirvikalpo Nirakara Roopaha Vibhur Vyapya

Sarvatra Sarvendriyanam

Sada Me Samatvam Na Muktir Na Bandhah Chidananda Rupa

Shivoham Shivoham”

“I do not have fear of death, as I do not have death.

I have no separation from my true self, no doubt about

my existence, nor have I discrimination on the basis

of birth. I have no father or mother, nor did I have a

birth. I am not the relative, nor the friend, nor the

guru, nor the disciple. I am indeed, That eternal

knowing and bliss, Shiva,love and pure consciousness I

am all pervasive. I am without any attributes, and

without any form. I have neither attachment to the

world, nor to liberation (mukti). I have no wishes for

anything because I am everything, everywhere, every

time, always in equilibrium. I am indeed, That eternal

knowing and bliss, Shiva,love and pure consciousness.”

Thus sharanagati (surrender) and sharanagati alone is

both the path and the destination for this hapless

jiva.

Humble pranams to all

Hari OM

Shyam

--- Lady Joyce <shaantih (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote:

some thoughts on surrender. I hope

I am not too far off the mark and I hope you don't

mind my sharing :-)

Never miss an email again!

Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives.

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February 2, 2007

"V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk > wrote: advaitin, "nlg108108" <nlg_108 wrote:

The Mahavakya, 'Tatvam Asi,' is very clear about Iswara belonging only to the realm of illusion. The very equation is only to negate the unreal upadhis of jiva and Iswara, establishing the sole reality of the substratum.The Tamil Vedantic work,'Advaita Bodha Deepika,' attributes the entire creation only to the subjective Maya, taking the cue from Yoga Vasishta. But the Vaishnava theology gives importance only to Iswara, not recognising the formless aspect. Tirumular identifies Iswara as the pure Awareness, Sivam, which is beyond the 36 phenomenal categories. The creator Iswara belongs only to the Suddha Maya as per the Siva Siddhantha metaphysics.>Further, Tamil saints like Pattinathar, Thaymanavar, Sivavakkiyar, Bathrahiri, Ramalingar, Arunagir and Masthan talk about only the transcendental Awareness in the state of realization.

with respects and regards

Sankarraman

>

Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate

in the Answers Food & Drink Q&A.

February 2, 2007

Thank you, Shyam-ji, for this beautiful exposition on the essence of

surrender. It is extremely helpful.

Namaste,

Neil

_____

advaitin [advaitin] On Behalf

Of Shyam

Thursday, February 01, 2007 11:59 PM

advaitin

Re: weekly definition:Ishwara

Pranams

Thank you for sharing that beautiful poem.

It serves as an inspiration for me to elaborate about

the concept of surrender or sharanagati.

One of the many seeming paradoxes in the Gita is the

issue of self-effort vs surrender - it takes some

understanding to resolve the seeming contradiction

here.

Surrender involves the surrendering entity and a thing

that this entity currently possesses and can or has

the capacity to surrender.

So when we say "Surrender to God" it is easy to

understand who is doing the surrendering - it is of

course me, the jiva.

But what can I surrender?

Let us see what i have, what is mine?

This body is certainly not "mine" - i had nothing to

do with its creation

The wealth and possessions i have belonged to someone

else and just happen to have come my way. Being a very

temporary "borrower" of them, i certainly cannot claim

them as mine to be surrendered.

When this body itself is not mine, my relations are

certainly not mine.

Is there nothing that is mine that can then be

surrendered?

Fortunately there is.

It is the very sense of "mine"ness or "i"ness

This is most certainly mine.

The consequences of this "I"ness such as smallness,

fear, desire, anger, jealousy, sadness, despondency,

etc are also certainly mine.

So, yes, there is one thing "i" can triumphantly lay

claim to be mine, - and can happily surrender to

Ishwara - and that is this ahankara. In fact this

simple fact is what all of spirituality and sutras and

teachings and preachings all boild down to

surrender the finite i-ness

and

gain the infinite.

How to surrender this ahankara.

It is an illusory thing - in the Ramayan Ravan while

praying to Lord Shiva, cuts his head off repeatedly

only to find another pop back-on. This indicates the

seeming difficulty in "surrendering" the i-sense.

Well there are three levels of doing this..

Action, words and thought - kaayikam vaachikam and

maanasam.

Surrender in action is by means of karmayoga.

Surrender in words is by means of upasana.

Surrender in mind is by means of atmavichara.

Let us take karmayoga first.

In a nutshell,

"yad yad karma karomi tad tad akhilam shambo

tavaradhanam"

- any action I do is not for my sake but for the sake

of Ishwara, as a token of worship to Ishwara.

So whatever it is that I do as a active member of

society, the various roles I am called upon to play,

are opportunities for me to be an instrument in His

hands. And if am His instrument, then let whatever I

do have the fragrance of the deep love and gratitude

that I feel towards Him.

If at this point in time I am called upon to be a

parent, then let me understand that role to me an

instrument of Ishwara entrusted with that duty; if it

is an employee in an organization, then let me

understand that role to me an instrument of Ishwara

entrusted with that duty. The Sun is an instrument,

the Seas an instrument, and I, this infinitesimal

jiva, an instrument, of the Order that is Ishwara. So

everything I do has two aspects, an unchanging aspect

that has to do with the action being dedicated to my

Self, the antaryami, Ishwara. Then what needs to be

done needs to be done. And what will happen will

happen. This frees me from a sense of ownership in the

action and in turn frees me from the results of that

action. What accrues to me will be in perfect sync

with the Order that is Ishwara, and is nothing else

but his "prasada" his Blessing.

In upasana I praise Him and His creation. Why? Does

Ishwara need any praise? Of course not. But in

praising Him I acknowledge His Omniscience, His

Omnipresence, His Omnipotence and in this

acknowledgement the "I" that is my Ego progressively

gets sublimated. This is the true spirit seen in any

sahasranama - for example in the famous Vishnu

sahasranama "Bhoo padau yasya nabhir viyadasuranila

chandra suryau cha netre Karnavasa sirodhaumugamabhi

dhahano yasya vasteyamabhdhi; Anthastham yasya viswam

sura nara khaga go bhogi gandharva dhaityai, Chitram

ram ramyathe tham thribhuvana vapusham vishnumeesam

namami"

I bow before that God, Vishnu Who is the lord of three

worlds, Who has earth as his feet,Who has air as his

soul, Who has sky as his belly,Who has moon and sun

as eyes,

Who has the four directions as ears,Who has the land

of gods as head, Who has fire as his mouth,Who has sea

as his stomach, And in whose belly play and enjoy,

Gods, men birds, animals, Serpent men, Gandharvas and

Asuras.

Thus we describe (and visualize) Him as the Viraat, as

the sky, the moon, the sun, the sea - and what about

me? When all this is nothing but Him, then do I even

stand a chance? Thus alone does my ego slowly melt

away in the incandescence of bhakti or devotion.

Finally sharanagati at the mental level. This is none

other than atma vichara - an enquiry into the Self.

This being a subtle exercise, the ego already needs to

have ripened by both surrender in action as well as

surrender in upasana. Now the ego is ready to face its

final and complete annihilation, and that is by a

direct enquiry into its very core, a questioning of

its very existence. And in this we are once again

helped by the benevolent Mother Shruti who in stating

a fact "tat tvam asi" helps us understand the eternal

truth about our true and only Self. This very

understanding when crystallized into selfrealization

renders our false Ego lifeless and formless. This then

is the Ultimate surrender. The Ego is dead. It

realized it was never born to begin with. What Is is

what ever Is.

"Na Mrityu Na Shanka Na Me Jati Bhedah Pita Naiva Me

Naiva Mata Na Janma

Na Bandhur Na Mitre Gurur Naiva Shishyah Chidananda

Rupa Shivoham Shivoham

Aham Nirvikalpo Nirakara Roopaha Vibhur Vyapya

Sarvatra Sarvendriyanam

Sada Me Samatvam Na Muktir Na Bandhah Chidananda Rupa

Shivoham Shivoham"

"I do not have fear of death, as I do not have death.

I have no separation from my true self, no doubt about

my existence, nor have I discrimination on the basis

of birth. I have no father or mother, nor did I have a

birth. I am not the relative, nor the friend, nor the

guru, nor the disciple. I am indeed, That eternal

knowing and bliss, Shiva,love and pure consciousness I

am all pervasive. I am without any attributes, and

without any form. I have neither attachment to the

world, nor to liberation (mukti). I have no wishes for

anything because I am everything, everywhere, every

time, always in equilibrium. I am indeed, That eternal

knowing and bliss, Shiva,love and pure consciousness."

Thus sharanagati (surrender) and sharanagati alone is

both the path and the destination for this hapless

jiva.

Humble pranams to all

Hari OM

Shyam

--- Lady Joyce <shaantih (AT) comcast (DOT) <shaantih%40comcast.net> net>

wrote:

some thoughts on surrender. I hope

I am not too far off the mark and I hope you don't

mind my sharing :-)

________

Never miss an email again!

Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives.

http://tools. <http://tools.search./toolbar/features/mail/>

search./toolbar/features/mail/

February 3, 2007

advaitin, "nlg108108" <nlg_108 wrote:

>

> Namaste,

>

> I think I am confused. Or at least want to make sure I am not.

>

> Please clarify for me the distinction, if there is any at all no

matter

> how nuanced, between the use of the name "Ishwara" and the name

> "Brahman." I thought after reading the initial definition that

Ishwara

> encompasses both the transcendent, unmanifested, eternal Pure

> Consciousness of Brahman, and the more immanent, manifest aspects of

> Brahman. But in his latest post, Sri Ramji seems to be indicating

that

> Ishwara is used in reference only to the more manifest aspects by

> appending "Ishwara" to the term Saguna Brahman, and not also to the

term

> Nirguna Brahman.

>

> Thank you very much.

>

> Namaste,

>

> Neil

Namaskarams Sri Neilji,

here is one way of seeing the two.

The starting point of all our analysis is the mind. Now take this

starting point without question. What do we find? An objective

universe, and various levels of perception. The Reality that is the

substratum of this objective experience, the Primal Cause, is

Ishvara. The ignorance of superimposition in which the mind finds

itself entangled has its primal cause in Ishvara: thus from the

objective perspective, maya is an effect of Ishvara. Ishvara is not

necessarily a big human type person, but being the root of all the

dualisitic experience, including our own individual consciousness, it

may well be expected that for one who seeks personal communion, the

Lord responds. The affirmation of this is from our sages alone. So

while you are jiva, He IS Ishvara, the nearest and the greatest, your

own consciousnessand the Universal Identity; surrender jiva, . . .

(Sri Shyamji says things better).

Now suppose we begin with the sruthi (scripture) whose final

conclusion is non-dual Reality. Then we question the very starting

point of our analysis (the mind) which proposes a contradicting

duality: the mind is a "bundle of thoughts" with no separate reality.

In this case, the assumption of individual identity is negated at its

very root, and hence whatever falls in conjunction with that

assumption also falls in the realms of an inexplicable

(anirvachaniya) ignorance (maya). Thus all duality including the

personal Ishvara are now within maya: they have a lower status to

truth in this subjective approach. Maya/duality is maya, because it

can be transcended in Samadhi, nirvana (!), God-realization, etc. The

Self that is the substratum, the Identity, is "Become One with", and

the "ego" of the Self-realized jnani is like a room with glass

ceiling through which the Sun is always seen.

Undoubtedly, you will find Advaitins mix these two, for we love

bhakthi and revere jnana. This forum is quite fortunate to have these

scholars take time and explain for beginners.

thollmelukaalkizhu

February 4, 2007

advaitin, Shyam <shyam_md wrote:

>

> Pranams

> Thank you for sharing that beautiful poem.

>

> It serves as an inspiration for me to elaborate about

> the concept of surrender or sharanagati.

> - any action I do is not for my sake but for the sake

> of Ishwara, as a token of worship to Ishwara.

> So whatever it is that I do as a active member of

> society, the various roles I am called upon to play,

> are opportunities for me to be an instrument in His

> hands. And if am His instrument, then let whatever I

> do have the fragrance of the deep love and gratitude

> that I feel towards Him.

> If at this point in time I am called upon to be a

> parent, then let me understand that role to me an

> instrument of Ishwara entrusted with that duty; if it

> is an employee in an organization, then let me

> understand that role to me an instrument of Ishwara

> entrusted with that duty. The Sun is an instrument,

> the Seas an instrument, and I, this infinitesimal

> jiva, an instrument, of the Order that is Ishwara. So

> everything I do has two aspects, an unchanging aspect

> that has to do with the action being dedicated to my

> Self, the antaryami, Ishwara. Then what needs to be

> done needs to be done. And what will happen will

> happen. This frees me from a sense of ownership in the

> action and in turn frees me from the results of that

> action. What accrues to me will be in perfect sync

> with the Order that is Ishwara, and is nothing else

> but his "prasada" his Blessing.

>

Sri Shyamji, your exposition is indeed brilliant; I did not read it

properly till now.

It also brings out the importance of Ishvara so long as jiva is

present. If one attempts a pure jnana approach avoiding or denying

Ishvara, practically all of life (for 99% of householders, etc)

becomes a continuous contradiction between ideal and practice. When

the jiva-identity is presumed in the mind, the true Identity in

Ishvara is the all-digesting reservoir of the ego-accumulations.

Thus the bhaktha remains free, resigning activity and identity at the

feet of the Lord.

I will make a printout of your wonderful exposition.

thollmelukaalkizhu

February 4, 2007

advaitin, "putranm" <putranm wrote:

>

> advaitin, Shyam <shyam_md@> wrote:

> >

> > Pranams

> > Thank you for sharing that beautiful poem.

> >

> > It serves as an inspiration for me to elaborate about

> > the concept of surrender or sharanagati.

>

> > - any action I do is not for my sake but for the sake

> > of Ishwara, as a token of worship to Ishwara.

> > So whatever it is that I do as a active member of

> > society, the various roles I am called upon to play,

> > are opportunities for me to be an instrument in His

> Sri Shyamji, your exposition is indeed brilliant; I did not read it

> properly till now.

>

> It also brings out the importance of Ishvara so long as jiva is

> present. If one attempts a pure jnana approach avoiding or denying

> Ishvara, practically all of life (for 99% of householders, etc)

> thollmelukaalkizhu

>

Sri Shyamji,

I believe this topic of Ishvara will be an eternal confusion for me. I

think I have it, then soon I am lost again.

My feeling is that the question of surrender or "why surrender?"

arises only because of a lack of belief in His personal reality. Do

you know how a sishya feels in the presence of the guru or son in the

presence of a mother? There is no need to give an exposition on the

whys and wherefores. The bad ego is automatically surrendered. When it

comes to Ishvara, we give tremendous justifications for surrender as a

way of giving ourselves a free and happy way to live without mental

trouble. The assertion of truth in His personal Reality, that a Sri

Ramakrishna gives or that Sri Subbuji confirmed in the orthodox

versions, is the only possible basis for final justification of

surrender to Ishvara. The Recipient of our surrender must be REAL as a

Recipient and not as a self-deluding tool to use for escaping our ego

and mind.

I simply pray that He is Real in this sense; the words of our saints

are the basis for faith as they have walked the path.

And while He has hidden Himself in this sense, all paths are equally

justified, so long as we sincerely search for Truth and Freedom. IF He

is Real, then He MUST show the way.

thollmelukaalkizhu

February 4, 2007

-

putranm

advaitin

Saturday, February 03, 2007 10:13 PM

Re: weekly definition:Ishwara

Sri Shyamji,

I believe this topic of Ishvara will be an eternal confusion for me. I

think I have it, then soon I am lost again.

My feeling is that the question of surrender or "why surrender?"

arises only because of a lack of belief in His personal reality. Do

you know how a sishya feels in the presence of the guru or son in the

presence of a mother? There is no need to give an exposition on the

whys and wherefores. The bad ego is automatically surrendered. When it

comes to Ishvara, we give tremendous justifications for surrender as a

way of giving ourselves a free and happy way to live without mental

trouble.The assertion of truth in His personal Reality, that a Sri

Ramakrishna gives or that Sri Subbuji confirmed in the orthodox

versions, is the only possible basis for final justification of

surrender to Ishvara. The Recipient of our surrender must be REAL as a

Recipient and not as a self-deluding tool to use for escaping our ego

and mind.

I simply pray that He is Real in this sense; the words of our saints

are the basis for faith as they have walked the path.

================================================

He is more Real than "you" are in every sense.

He is the very breath you breath. You do not need

to be "knowledgeable" in the philosophy of Advaita

or anything else to know this as true. In fact, the

less you know, the more you know when it comes

to this subject. Surrender needs no justification as

a way to happiness, at least not for me. Ishwara is

beyond mother or father and is all-encompassing.

Call it a mere experience if you will, but once you

know the touch of Grace, there is no turning back,

and there is no denying the Reality of that which Is.

There is only humility and gratitude in the face of

such Grace. There is no need for philosphy or

explanations penned by mere humans such as

myself :-) Once you have felt the Divine Power,

the only pain you know is the longing to feel it again.

This is different from the peace and satisfaction

which flows from an attitude towards life which

accepts these things as true, having reached such

a conclusion through logic and study. The Self

reveals Itself to Itself for reasons mere mortals

cannot comprehend on the level of vyavaHara.

He is not a recipient of your Surrender to Him,

for you have nothing to give to Him which is not

already His. You are the recipient of the Grace

of surrender. There is no other path once you

have been consumed by His glory and wonder.

With love and gratitude,

Joyce

February 4, 2007

advaitin, "Joyce" <shaantih wrote:

The Self

> reveals Itself to Itself for reasons mere mortals

> cannot comprehend on the level of vyavaHara.

> He is not a recipient of your Surrender to Him,

> for you have nothing to give to Him which is not

> already His. You are the recipient of the Grace

> of surrender. There is no other path once you

> have been consumed by His glory and wonder.

>

> With love and gratitude,

>

> Joyce

>

Namaskarams Sri Joyceji, thankyou for that wonderful expression of

your inner realizations. Think of me as a fool who likes to complain.

I am a mix of big intellect and childish desires: the one always

fights with the other.

thollmelukaalkizhu

February 4, 2007

advaitin, "putranm" <putranm wrote:

>

> advaitin, "nlg108108" <nlg_108@> wrote:

> >

> > Namaste,

> >

> > I think I am confused. Or at least want to make sure I am not.

> >

> > Please clarify for me the distinction, if there is any at all no

> matter

> > how nuanced, between the use of the name "Ishwara" and the name

> > "Brahman." > Namaskarams Sri Neilji,

>

> here is one way of seeing the two.

>

> The starting point of all our analysis is the mind. Now take this

> starting point without question. What do we find? An objective

> universe, and various levels of perception. The Reality that is the

> substratum of this objective experience, the Primal Cause, is

> Ishvara.

Here are some more thoughts on your question.

The Reality: Nirguna Brahman

How does this appear in intellect (or is comprehended)? In dual pairs.

Cause - Effect

Subject - Object

Knower - Known

Ishvara - Prakrithi/Maya (lets not bring in jiva here for now)

The second term in each pair refers to the objective understanding of

Brahman. This automatically infers a subjective parallel aspect,

which is the first term. In general, the first term is used to refer

to Brahman, but this is inferred usage that must go through the

objective (saguna) analysis. Hence Ishvara refers to Brahman alone

(beyond objectivity); however the term implies that we are perceiving

Prakrithi and working from there to the nirguna truth. That is why it

is valid to say Ishvara corresponds to Saguna Brahman (as Sri Ram

Chandranji said).

In Dvaita schools, the dual pairs refer to dual Realities. In

Advaita, they denote the nirguna Substratum, which cannot be

approached through the intellect except through the dual-pairs. That

is the maya of the scheme, which is what I believe Sri Profvkji was

trying to mention.

Some other things which you may use in your study of Advaita.

1. The Self is not an object for analysis. It is You. "How can the

Knower be known?"

2. Maya is not an objective reality. It is a fact of experience (or

the fact) for the mind experiencing.

3. Being the "Primal Cause" of Maya automatically implicates that

Ishvara is not an objective independent Reality (which if He were

would place Him within the domain of objectivity/maya). This is

similar to the question of knower-known above, and dual pairs.

[NOTE: Of course, the bhaktha's question of whether

Ishvara "manifests/governs" in other personal aspects is an

independent question. In this case, the term Ishvara is also used in

more objective sense.]

4. The term Ishvara is the jiva's best attempt to identify

objectively the Ultimate Brahman/Self/Knower. It will have to fall

short of the mark, since again "how can the Knower be known?" It is

You.

5. That unidentifiable Brahman, the implied Ishvara and That which is

misidentified as Prakrithi (within maya) are one and the same. That

Infinite You are. This is the mahavakya: Tat tvam asi (That Thou

art). Objective analysis begins with the separation of Tat and Tvam:

whatever follows is precisely "maya".

thollmelukaalkizhu

February 4, 2007

Thank you so very much. Your posts, as well as the responses from the

others, have been very helpful. It is quite challenging to use those tools

that God gave me, rational thought, logic, intellect - a mind that thinks

with symbols, words and concepts -- to comprehend something that ultimately

is ineffable. But though I am pretty adept at sitting on the meditation

cushion and arriving at that space of no-thought, resting in pure awareness,

it is when I come off the cushion and try to understand in my mind what it

is that is ultimately experienced, that I grapple with these concepts in

orderr to provide some sort of framework for understanding and

comprehension. And in so doing, I want to be absolutely sure I am using

terms in precisely their intended meaning. Since, even though in the words

of the Zen master, all words and concepts are but a "finger pointing at the

moon" (i.e., not the moon itself), if one points even a single degree away

from the moon, one trying to chart a course by that pointing finger may get

lost on the journey.

Namaste,

Neil

_____

advaitin [advaitin] On Behalf

Of putranm

Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:38 AM

advaitin

Re: weekly definition:Ishwara

advaitin@ <advaitin%40> s.com,

"putranm" <putranm wrote:

>

> advaitin@ <advaitin%40> s.com,

"nlg108108" <nlg_108@> wrote: