difference between harinama initiation and diksa (mantra) initiation

February 5, 2007

Haribol! Please can someone explain to me what is the difference between harinama initiation and diksa (mantra) initiation? as I thought that they were the same?

I am chanting 16 rounds and I really want to recieve the pure Hare Krishna Maha mantra from a bona fide vaishnava. However, I've had lots of bad experiences and do not want any personal guru to always be expecting me to surrender myself to him in some way. Are there any gurus out there who just give the Naam and thats it? I am chanting 16 rounds. I would really appreciate feedback. Thank you so much.

Shakti-Fan · February 5, 2007

72-09-04 Letter: Jadurani

Regarding your questions, second initiation is real initiation. First initiation is the preliminary, just to make him prepared, just like primary and secondary education. The first initiation gives him chance to become purified, and when he is actually purified then he is recognized as a brahmana and that means real initiation. The eternal bond between disciple and spiritual master begins from the first day he hears. Just like my spiritual master. In 1922 he said in our first meeting, you are educated boys, why don't you preach this cult. That was the beginning, now it is coming to fact. Therefore the relationship began from that day.

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Beggar · February 5, 2007

<center><tt>Sri Guru & His Grace

</tt>Srila Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Deva Goswami

Chapter One </center>

<center> <tt>Surrender

to

Sri Guru</tt> </center> Even great scholars are perplexed in understanding what is good and what is bad, what to accept, and what to dismiss (kim karma kim akarmeti kavayo'py atra mohitah). Even great scholars fail to understand their real necessity. This material world is a jungle of perplexities, where the soul has accepted so many different kinds of bodies in different types of consciousness. In the Laws of Manu, it is written:

<center> jalaja nava laksani

sthavara laksa vimsati

krmayo rudra-sankhyakah

paksinam dasa laksanam

trimsal laksani pasavah

catur laksani manusah </center> There are 900,000 kinds of aquatics, 2,000,000 kinds of trees and plants, 1,100,000 kinds of insects and reptiles, 1,000,000 kinds of birds, 3,000,000 kinds of four-legged beasts, and 400,000 kinds of human species. Manu says that the trees are in such a hopeless position as a result of their own karma. Their feelings of pain and pleasure are similar to ours; their souls are not of a lower standard. Still, they are in such a deplorable position as a result of their own karma. They have no one to blame but themselves. This is the state of affairs in this external world.

We are living in an environment which is afflicted with serious misconception, misunderstanding, misguidance, and misbehavior. How are we to ascertain what is good and what is bad, what we should aspire after and what we should reject? Innumerable alternatives have thronged in a crowd, coming to influence us. And when this area, covered by illusion and influenced by misunderstanding, is filled with such diversity, how can we hope to know the infinite spiritual world of Vaikuntha? With what attitude should we approach that realm which is transcendental, beyond the realm of the senses and mind (adhoksaja).

The Genuine Guru

We must accept any way and any alliance that will help us gain entrance into that realm. We shall try to have even the slightest connection with that perfect goal of our innate aspiration. We are helpless; we are hopeless in the midst of disappointment. We are in extreme danger. We rely on our free will, our capacity of selection for our own good, but it is too minute and helpless to guide us. What danger we are in! All around us are witnesses to this danger. How important is a real guru who can guide us to our real welfare.

We are in the midst of different forces that are drawing us, attracting us towards different directions, so proper guidance is the most valuable and the most important thing for all of us. If we accept direction from anywhere and everywhere, we will be misguided. Therefore, we must be careful to get proper direction. That direction has been given by Krsna in the Bhagavad-gita:

<center> tad viddhi pranipatena

pariprasnena sevaya

upadeksyanti te jnanam

jnaninas tattva-darsinah </center> "To understand transcendental knowledge, you must approach a self-realized soul, accept him as your spiritual master, and take initiation from him. Inquire submissively and render service unto him. Self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you, for they have seen the truth."

Qualifications of a Disciple

Here, Krsna has given us the standard by which we can understand what is what, from a bona fide source. The standard to measure truth or untruth must come not from a vitiated, vulnerable plane, but from a real plane. And to realize that, we must have these three qualifications: pranipat, pariprasna, and seva. Pranipat means we must surrender to this knowledge, for it is not an ordinary class of knowledge, which as a subject we can make our object; it is supersubjective. We may be the subjects in this mundane world, but we will have to become objects to be handled by the superknowledge of that plane.

Pranipat means that one approaches a spiritual master, saying, "I am finished with the experience of this external world; I have no charrn for anything in this plane, where I have already traveled. Now I am offering myself exclusively at your altar. I want to have your grace." In this mood we should approach that higher knowledge.

Pariprasna means honest, sincere inquiry. We must inquire not with the tendency of discussion or in the mood of argument, but all our efforts should be concentrated in a positive line to understand the truth, without the spirit of doubt and suspicion. With full attention we should try to understand that truth, because it is coming from a higher plane of reality that we have never known.

Finally, there is sevaya, or service. This is the most important thing. We are trying to gain this knowledge not so we can get the help of that plane, not so we can utilize that experience for living here; rather we must give our pledge to serve that plane. Only with this attitude may we approach that plane of knowledge. We shall serve that higher knowledge; we won't try to make it serve us. Otherwise, we won't be allowed to enter into that domain.

Absolute knowledge won't come to serve this lower plane. We must offer ourselves to be used by Him, not that we shall try to use Him in our own selfish way, to satisfy our lower purpose.

With the mood of service we shall dedicate ourselves to Him; not that He will dedicate Himself to satisfy our lower animal purpose. So, with this attitude we shall seek the plane of real knowledge and receive the standard understanding. And then we can know what is what, and have a proper estimation of our environment.

This is Vedic culture. Absolute knowledge has always been imparted by this process alone, and never by the intellectual approach. Srlla Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta used to give the analogy of the bee: honey is in a bottle, the cork is in place, and the bee has taken his seat on the glass. He tries to taste the honey by licking the bottle. But, just as the bee cannot taste the honey by licking the outside of the glass bottle, the intellect cannot approach the world of spirit. We may think that we have attained it, but that is not possible: a barrier is there, like the glass. Intellectual achievement is not real achievement of higher knowledge. Only through faith, sincerity, and dedication can we approach that higher realm, and become a member. We can enter that higher plane only if they grant us a visa and admit us. Then we can enter that land of divine living.

So, a candidate must have these three qualifications before he can approach the truth which is on the higher plane of Absolute Reality. He can approach the Absolute Truth only with an attitude of humility, sincerity, and dedication. There are similar statements in the Srimad Bhagavatam and the Vedas. In the Upanisads it is said, tad vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet samit panih srotriyam brahma nistham: "Approach a spiritual master. Do not go to him hesitatingly or haphazardly, but with a clear and earnest heart."

Spintual Life-a One Way Ticket

One should not approach the spiritual master "cutting a return ticket." Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada used to always say, "You have come here cutting a return ticket." We must not approach the spiritual master with that attitude. Rather, we should think that we have seen everything, that we have full experience of this mortal world, and that we have nothing to aspire after here. With this clear consciousness, we should approach the guru. That is the only way for us to live. This world is mortal. There is no means, no possibility of living here, and yet the will to live is an innate tendency everywhere.

"I only want to live and to save myself. I am running to the real shelter." With this earnestness, the disciple will bring his spiritual master the necessary materials for sacrifice. He won't go to his spiritual master only to trouble the guru, but will approach him with his own necessities already supplied. He will go there with his own bed and baggage. Not that he will show some kindness to the spiritual master and give him name and fame by becoming his disciple.

And what will be the spiritual master's position? He will be well versed in the revealed truth, not in ordinary information. Revelation in many shades has been spread in the world from the upper realm, but the guru must have some spacious, graphic knowledge. He must have extensive knowledge about the revealed truth. And he must always be practicing real spiritual life. His activities are all connected with spirit, not with the mundane world. He is concerned with Brahman, the plane which can accomodate everything, the fundamental basis of everything (brahma-nistham). Not that he is leading his life with any mortal, mundane reference. He always lives in the transcendental plane and keeps himself in connection with that plane his whole life. Whatever he does, he will do only with that consciousness. This is the version of the Upanisads.

And in the Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.3.21) it is said:

<center> tasmad gurum prapadyeta

jijnasuh sreya uttamam

sabde pare ca nisnatam

brahmany upasamasrayam </center> Maya means misconception. We are living in the midst of misconception. Our understanding of the environment is based on a completely misconceived set of ideas and thoughts. We have no proper conception of anything in the absolute sense. Our ideas are all relative. Provincial selfishness has been imposed on the environment, and we are living under that misconception. When one comes to the conclusion that everything will vanish, then, with that mood, he will feel the necessity of approaching the guru, the divine guide and preceptor, with the purpose of inquiry. "What is the highest good for me?" With this inquiry, he will approach the spiritual master.

And who will he approach? One who is not only well-versed in the precepts of the revealed scriptures, but who has also come in contact with the revealed truth. One who is conversant with the very object of the scriptures, and who has practical experience, who is established in pure consciousness, is a genuine guru. One should approach such a guide for his own relief, to understand what is the highest benefit in the world and how to attain it. This is necessary. It is real. It is not imaginary. At the same time, it is difficult. The Absolute Truth must be sought out through a real process, otherwise we shall go the wrong way and then say, "Oh, there is nothing here; it is not real." So, only if we follow this real process of understanding the truth will we experience the real nature of divinity.next

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brajeshwara das · February 5, 2007

You really need to have a serving attitude to approach Guru, not to 'take' something but to surrender yourself. My Gurudeva is so merciful to me, the only direct instruction (beyond instructions in sadhana etc in darshan or if I was directly asking for service) was to chant 16 rounds without offense and follow the regulative principles. This is His great mercy because I am so fallen, if He gives me too many instructions I may not be able to follow and cause offense. It sounds like you want this sort of merciful Guru. But really you should beg for service from Guru, this is the point of bhakti yoga, to surrender to the servant of the servant of the Lord and serve. We are here to serve the Holy Name, it isn't here to serve us. You (nor I!) will receive it truly until we are proper receivers, this means taking a negative position with deep humility and selflessness. I would suggest you aren't ready to take initiation until you feel the necessity inside yourself to serve.

theist · February 5, 2007

Haribol! Please can someone explain to me what is the difference between harinama initiation and diksa (mantra) initiation? as I thought that they were the same?

I am chanting 16 rounds and I really want to recieve the pure Hare Krishna Maha mantra from a bona fide vaishnava. However, I've had lots of bad experiences and do not want any personal guru to always be expecting me to surrender myself to him in some way. Are there any gurus out there who just give the Naam and thats it? I am chanting 16 rounds. I would really appreciate feedback. Thank you so much.

Candice,

Lord Caitanya taught that the Holy Name acts immediately and does depend on nor wait for formal intiation procedures. The potency is already there in the Name. The important thing is that you chant with a Vaisnava understanding and in the association of Vaisnavas and never mayavadis who will pollut you with their misconceptions. Undoubtly you know this already.

You already have a guru. Several in fact. You have Srila Prabhupada's books in which he can be found in his commentaries. Also his taped talks and lectures. You have Caitya-guru in your heart who we may not be able to hear but who nontheless hears us in our prayers and the desires of our hearts and will guide us true. He is the real guru.

Should you feel you want to surrender to a guru manifest on earth it is Caitya guru that will reveal exactly who His representative is and will arrange the connection between you and that person while protecting you from all the pretenders that pop up along the way...and there are many out there posturing themselves as links to Krsna.

And there is one more. Please read the quote from Srila Prabhupada that I use as a signature on the bottom of this post.

It will be hard to resist the peer pressure to "get a Guru" and join the club but if you are wise you will wait until you have no doubts within yourself that Krsna is directing you to one particular person.

Hare Krsna

brajeshwara das · February 5, 2007

I definitely agree that you should try and listen to Caitya-guru and that Guru is there in the shastra (which I include all Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupada's books to be, not just His translated ancient scripture), but the importance of Guru in bodily form can't be minimized. It may be possible only to listen to Caitya-guru and books, but can you hear Caitya-guru clearly? Do you fully understand all you read? Keep searching for the Guru in physical form. It is my feeling so many of the problems ISKCON has had is because they are lacking the Acharya in physical form, and even though Srila Prabhupada spelled it out so clearly so many times, without His direct association misunderstanding of His desires occured, still occurs. Even when Guru is there, in the same room, we may misunderstand, what to speak of when we can't ask for clarification. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada and His mission, I don't mean to say anything offensive.

I recommend you read the book Sri Guru and His Grace in it's entirety online here. Search for Guru even when you find Him, because he is deeper than we know.

Shakti-Fan · February 5, 2007

<table border="0" width="800"><tbody><tr><td width="60%"> All Will Be In Vain

Tridandi Gosvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

Oahu, Hawaii: Jan. 19, 2002 (Evening - Part 1)

All glories to Srila Swami Maharaja. I know that he has collected you all

and brought you here, and as far as I am concerned, he has dragged me here.

All glories to him. Only glorifying will not do, however. We'll have to

follow his instructions. It is not enough to say, "All glories to Srila

Prabhupada." You have to follow his deep instructions in your life, and then

the fruit will come. Otherwise, where you were before, you will remain, and

there will be no advancement.

'sadhu-sanga', 'sadhu-sanga' – sarva-sastre kaya

lava-matra sadhu-sange sarva-siddhi haya

"The verdict of all revealed scriptures is that by even a moment's

association with a pure devotee, one can attain all success." (Cc. Madhya

22.54)

If you have a little sraddha (faith), or even if you have nistha (firm

faith), or even ruci (taste), if you have no sadhu-sanga, no high-class

association, you will lose whatever you have. Even if you have attained the

stage of ruci, if that ruci has not matured, there will be some doubt.

Again, so many offences and unwanted mentalities and habits will attack you,

as they attacked Bharata Maharaja and others. I know that you are not at the

stage of Bharata Maharaja or anyone of his calibra. Whether or not you have

even achieved nistha, you can judge yourself by keeping your hands on your

heart and asking your heart.

Although you have not attained nistha, still I am discussing with you the

topics concerning our aim and how we can achieve it. If you are not in the

correct process, even if you think you have so much love and affection, if

your feelings and activities are not approved by sastra, then all is in

vain.

[sripad Madhava Maharaja:] Sruti-smrti-puranadi-pancaratra-vidhim vina /

aikantiki harer bhaktir utpatayaiva kalpate. ["Devotional service to the

Lord that ignores the authorized Vedic literatures – the Upanisads, Puranas,

Narada-pancaratra, etc. – is simply an unnecessary disturbance in society

(BRS 1.2.101)."] Sruti means Veda, and smrti means smrti-sastras

(corollaries to the Vedas) like Manu-smrti. Pancaratra means

Narada-pancaratra. The great sages have explained in their books about the

goal and process to achieve it. Without the approval of these sastras, and

without the proper process, if you do something by your uncontrolled mind

and you think, "This is the best process. I have discovered it by myself,

and by this process I can achieve krsna-prema," your actions will go in vain

and they will also create chaos in your mind. The day will come that you

will give up all spiritual practices.

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] As much as your bhakti increases, humility will

come and you will think, "I'm very low." If your bhakti has not increased,

then only false ego will act. If bhakti is gradually developing, then

gradually your humility, as told in slokas like 'trnad api sunicena,' will

manifest. You will realize, "I really have nothing. I have no power. I

really have no bhakti." At that time you will be able to realize how

insignificant you are. Srimati Radhika thinks in this way. She says, "I

actually have not even a scent of prema for Krsna. I have not served Him. I

have not even seen Him." Only She can speak like this, as this is this the

symptom of mahabhava. It is very high. You should realize that you are

nothing. You are a particle, and that particle can be covered at anytime by

maya. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura therefore says in his Sri Bhajana Rahasya

that even if you have received nistha, you should hear from high-class

devotees.

There are two kinds of bhagavatas. One is the transcendental book bhagavata,

which was received by Vyasa in his trance, and in which all kinds of very

powerful and sweet pastimes of Krsna have been given. It is under lock and

key, however. It can be only opened by the highest class of

bhakta-bhagavata. These devotees have the key. Any ordinary bhakta, anyone

who is in a stage lower than rati, cannot unlock it. Only one who has

received suddha-sattva from an eternal parikara (associate) of Krsna, like

Srila Rupa Gosvami, Srila Sanatana Gosvami and all the sad-Gosvamis, Srila

Narottama dasa Thakura, and others up to Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and

Srila Prabhupada, can open the lock.

Don't lose the fortune to hear from superiors. Even if your whole business

goes down, there is no harm. Even if you lose your job in a government

department, that is not a loss. On the other hand, if you lose your

opportunity for saddhu-sanga, that is a great loss.

I know so many devotees here, especially from India, who don't avail

themselves of sadhu-sanga. They have come to the West to make money. Their

money is more important to them than bhakti. On the other hand, you have

left all these things and you have come here to hear. You are most

fortunate. Continue in this way. To lose any worldly thing is not really a

loss, but to lose this opportunity is very unfortunate.

Sometimes, if your friend or relative is a mayavadi, karmi, yogi, or jnani,

you try to please him – because he is your friend. Don't associate with such

people, even if they are your friends or relatives; otherwise, you yourself

will become a mayavada. Don't associate with mayavadis, and especially don't

associate with lusty persons and friends of lusty persons. If you want to

make advancement, then make friendship with a devotee who is superior to you

in bhakti, who has love and affection for you, and who is svajatiya,

like-minded. 'Like-minded' refers to one who is like-minded for paramartha

(transcendental life) – not for worldly things. He should be an ocean of the

type of prema for which you aspire. By hearing from him, you develop

increased steadiness in bhakti, and you also develop all the stages beyond

that.

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