difference between harinama initiation and diksa (mantra) initiation

[Guest guest]

 

...This Mayavadi, impersonalist theory is a hoax created by ISKON cult.

How can there be eternal bhakti if the lover merges into the lover and looses their identity?

[Guruvani]

 

Clearly you didn't read what Srila Sridhara Maharaja was saying.

 

He said the realization of the person giving the Name is "the important thing".

Sure, if you get the mantra from a Mayavadi, it will be different than if you get it from a devotee of the Sankirtan movement.

 

As well, the siksha guru can compensate for any shortcomings that might have been there in the diksha guru.

 

If you get the mantra from a Vaishnava, then you are very fortunate.

 

We aren't going to let career gurus claim any monopoly over the Sankirtan devotees.

[Guruvani]

 

Clearly you didn't read what Srila Sridhara Maharaja was saying.

 

He said the realization of the person giving the Name is "the important thing".

 

Srila Prabhupada says it like this:

 

 

So Caitanya Mahaprabhu says,

 

 

 

amara ajnaya guru hana tara ei desa

yare dekha, tare kaha, 'krsna'-upadesa

 

 

Just see. It is very nice. You'll find in Caitanya-caritamrta, now it is published. Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, He is the Supreme Lord, Krsna. He says, amara ajnaya. "Whatever I say, amara ajnaya, by My order, you become a spiritual master." Caitanya Mahaprabhu. So one may be very illiterate, no education, or no scholarship, may not be born in brahmana family, or may not be a sannyasi. There are so many qualification. But one may not have all these qualifications. He may be rascal number one, but still, he can become spiritual master. How? Amara ajnaya. As Krsna says, as Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, if you follow, then you become spiritual master. One may be rascal number one from material estimation, but if he simply strictly follows whatever is said by Caitanya Mahaprabhu or His representative spiritual master, then he becomes a guru.

 

[Guest guest]

So the people who got Harinama from Kirtanananda, they got the real thing?

[Guruvani]

 

So the people who got Harinama from Kirtanananda, they got the real thing?

I would say they did for sure.

If you can't forgive Kirtanananda Swami and respect him for all the service he has done for Srila Prabhupada, then your own future is very bleak.

 

There are some really amazing devotees who were disciples and associates of Kirtanananda Swami.

 

I spent some time in New Vrindavan.

It was one of the most powerful and amazing places in the Krishna consciousness movement.

 

If you didn't experience that first hand yourself, then you should really reserve your opinions to yourself.

 

Kirtanananda Swami might be a madman, but he is Prabhupada's madman and he is a great soul despite his failings.

 

You can't become saintly yourself unless and until you can forgive others and see their inspired side.

 

It you can't forgive, then you will get no forgiveness from the Lord.

 

There is a lot of prajalpa being broadcast nowadays.

Be careful not to become a victim of that evil.

 

Kirtanananda Swami ki-jaya!!!!!

[brajeshwara das]

 

if he simply strictly follows whatever is said by Caitanya Mahaprabhu or His representative spiritual master, then he becomes a guru

 

See, I think this is the thing: no one here is thinking it is so cheap and easily attained to be Guru, we all know this is true. So when someone hears that it all you need is Caitya-guru, or anyone who has Hari-nama initiation can be Guru, or you can be a saint even though you got the Name from a sinner, it sounds wrong and throws up red flags. The bottom line is this is a very rare state, no matter how it may be manifested. But if Krsna wants you to know Him, he will make himself known, that's the bottom line. Ultimately the Name descends, I think that is the most important point, it comes down, it isn't from our own effort but through the will of the Lord. We are all dependent on that mercy.

[Guruvani]

 

See, I think this is the thing: no one here is thinking it is so cheap and easily attained to be Guru, we all know this is true. So when someone hears that it all you need is Caitya-guru, or anyone who has Hari-nama initiation can be Guru, or you can be a saint even though you got the Name from a sinner, it sounds wrong and throws up red flags. The bottom line is this is a very rare state, no matter how it may be manifested. But if Krsna wants you to know Him, he will make himself known, that's the bottom line. Ultimately the Name descends, I think that is the most important point, it comes down, it isn't from our own effort but through the will of the Lord. We are all dependent on that mercy.

Srila Prabhupada authorized all his devotees great and small to distribute the Holy Name.

It is the sanction and authority of Srila Prabhupada, the predecessor acharyas and ultimately Mahaprabhu that is the authority by which anyone and everyone has authority to distribute the Holy Name, not the lower level devotees who are trying to assist the spiritual master in distributing the Holy Name.

 

I have seen senior sannyasis of Sridhar Maharaja and many other of his followers bite the dust, so that shows that getting the mantra from higher devotees is no guarantee, while disciples of Kirtanananda have held strong.

 

It's individual sincerity that is the key ingrediant, not some external connection to higher saints.

[brajeshwara das]

 

It's individual sincerity that is the key ingrediant, not some external connection to higher saints.

 

Surely that is the truth.

[stonehearted]

Candice, I think the best thing for you right now is to continue chanting those sixteen rounds every day. You have received the holy name through the proper channel, and initiation is something else altogether. As pointed out by others, approaching someone for initiation, either in harinama or our sampradaya's sacred mantras, should not be done for your own gain, but for the purpose of serving the guru-parampara. In His instructions to Srila Sanatana Goswami on the process of devotional service, Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu gave these as the first items:

 

guru-padasraya, diksa, gurura sevana

sad-dharma-siksa-prccha, sadhu-marganugamana

 

"On the path of regulative devotional service, one must observe the following items: (1) One must accept a bona fide spiritual master. (2) One must accept initiation from him. (3) One must serve him. (4) One must receive instructions from the spiritual master and make inquiries in order to learn devotional service. (5) One must follow in the footsteps of the previous acaryas and follow the directions given by the spiritual master." (Cc., Madhya 22.116)

 

That first item means taking shelter of the guru's lotus feet. Krishna enjoins us in Bhagavad-gita to approach the guru through submissive inquiry and service (4.34). And even Chanakya Pandita advises that, just as we get water from a well by digging, we get knowledge from the guru by service.

 

So don't be in a big hurry about some formal initiation. When it's time, you'll know. You'll be convinced that you must approach that person. In the meantime, remember that Srila Jiva Goswami advises us against accepting initiation out of sentiment, based on family tradition, or in reponse to some social or ecclesiastical convention.

 

One gentleman, discussing this with Srila Prabhupada, suggested that the problem was to find a real spiritual master. Srila Prabhupada disagreed, asserting that the real problem was that we must be sincere.

[Guest guest]

Thanks , Babhru . And yes, coming from Lord Chaitanya.

[Guest guest]

Every one whose talking about Mayavadi theory please visit

 

www/harekrsna/org (replace "/" with ".")

 

to see where ISKON is going towards.

 

Lord Chaitanya was indeed initiated by a so call Mayavadi Guru.

[Guest guest]

 

Every one whose talking about Mayavadi theory please visit

 

www/harekrsna/org (replace "/" with ".")

 

to see where ISKON is going towards.

 

Lord Chaitanya was indeed initiated by a so call Mayavadi Guru.

 

Murwillumbah, Australia: April 29, 2005 [Part 1]

(The third class in the lecture series on Raya Ramananda Samvad)

 

Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

 

At the beginning of His conversation with Ramananda Raya, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, “I am a mayavadi (impersonalist) sannyasi. ” Someone once quoted this statement, saying that it is certain that Mahaprabhu was a mayavadi sannyasi because He had taken sannyasa from the mayavadi sannyasi named Kesava Bharati. But this is not true. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu took harinama initiation and diksa (brahminical initiation) from Sri Isvara Puripada. Isvara Puripada is His gurudeva and Kesava Bharati is His sannyasa-guru. Moreover, before receiving the sannyasa-mantra from Kesava Bharati, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu told him: “Oh, you are going to give me THIS mantra? ” At that moment Mahaprabhu uttered the sannyasa mantra in his ear and thus cleverly gave it to him first. What mantra was that? “Tat tvam asi.” What is the meaning? “I am an eternal servant of Sri Krsna. ” Kesava Bharati had taken sannyasa in the line of the leader of the mayavada philosophy, Sripad Sankaracarya. Madhvacarya (also took sannyasa in the line of Sankaracarya, but neither he nor Kesava Bharati were mayavadis. Mayavadi means nirvisesa-vadi, one who thinks that the Absolute Truth is without qualities and personality. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu defeated all the arguments of the mayavada scholar Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya, whereas he used to pay great respect to his gurudeva, Isvara Puripada. After Isvara Puripada's physical disappearance from this world, He went to his birthplace and took some earth from there. He put this earth very carefully in a bag tied to His outer garment, wept, and uttered no word other than “Isvara Puri ”. He used to eat a small portion of this earth daily, saying, “This earth is from the birthplace of Isvara Puri. It is My wealth. It is My life-breath.”

 

If Caitanya Mahaprabhu is not a mayavadi, why did He tell Ramananda Raya, “I am a mayavadi sannyasi ”? It is because He was humble, more so than a blade of grass. He followed the principles of the following verse, and all Vaisnava devotees should be like Him in this regard.

 

trnad api sunicena taror api sahisnuna

amanina manadena kirtaniya sada harih

 

[ “Thinking oneself to be even lower and more worthless than insignificant grass which has been trampled beneath everyone's feet, being more tolerant than a tree, being prideless, and offering respect to all others according to their respective positions, one should continuously chant the holy name of Sri Hari. ” (Sri Siksastakam, verse 3)]

[Guest guest]

Guest3 - that was good pausible excuse. “Tat tvam asi" is been well misinterpreted by you.

This is from Wikipedia -

"The Advaita interpretation holds that the essentials of 'tat', translated as "That" and referring to the Ultimate Reality, (Brahman) and 'tvam' (this individual soul called jiva) are exactly the same." This clearly shows to reach Krsna you don't have to be in Hare Krsna cult, but need Bhakti which could come from praying to Krsna in a Vedic way ( don't have to be in ISKON way)

 

This is how you ppl misinterpret them. Same as Bhakta Prahalad Maharaj. He did not chanted Mahamantra But all your dramas and talk you will say he chanted Mahamantra.

[Guest guest]

This is a wrong claim and is not supported by any Acarya.

 

Srila Prabhupada said that chanting should be heard from the lips of a pure devotee and anyone who is not pure devotee, such chanting should be avoided just as milk touched by the lips of a serpent causes poisonous effect and should be avoided. It's in his explanation of the Hare Krsna maha-mantra

 

GuestM is corrrect ... hearing from a person who is not a pure devotee doesn't have the desired effect, as confirmed by Srila Prabhupada.

 

 

A sincere person can get the Holy Name from a less sincere person and get all perfection.

[theist]

 

This is a wrong claim and is not supported by any Acarya.

 

Srila Prabhupada said that chanting should be heard from the lips of a pure devotee and anyone who is not pure devotee, such chanting should be avoided just as milk touched by the lips of a serpent causes poisonous effect and should be avoided. It's in his explanation of the Hare Krsna maha-mantra

 

GuestM is corrrect ... hearing from a person who is not a pure devotee doesn't have the desired effect, as confirmed by Srila Prabhupada.

 

So we should avoid the chanting of any of Prabhupada's disciples who are not yet themselves pure devotees???

 

Or are the "lips of a serpent" those found on mayavadis who hold views atagonistic to pure devotional service? Big big difference here.

[Guest guest]

I must admit that I'm not sure who exactly Srila Prabhupada meant by non-devotees. You could well be right but can you provide more details that he indeed meant the mayavadis?

 

 

So we should avoid the chanting of any of Prabhupada's disciples who are not yet themselves pure devotees???

 

Or are the "lips of a serpent" those found on mayavadis who hold views atagonistic to pure devotional service? Big big difference here.

[theist]

 

I must admit that I'm not sure who exactly Srila Prabhupada meant by non-devotees. You could well be right but can you provide more details that he indeed meant the mayavadis?

 

Thank you for your open mind prabhu and your willingness to reexamine. Those are the qualities of a genuine truth seeker. Please accept my respects.

 

I am convinced that is what he meant but will leave it up to you to run the investigation.

 

Also from Srila Prabhupada's teaching I have gleaned others to be avoided include the associaiton with those who are out and out enimical to the successes of other devotees or who prey upon others in often despicable ways. Like those posturing as advanced disciples of Srila Prabhupada but rape children on the side when they are not giving class.

 

New comers to the kirtan are harmless even if they hold mayavadi or other gross materialistic views. The thing is in every kirtana the most advanced person should lead the kirtan or at least set the dominant tone under which the kirtan is conducted.

 

In this way we the various beginner Vaisnavas and the newly attracted materialists and mayavadis are associating with the Holy Name in kirtana under the spirit of the more advanced. In this way even though so many "undesirables" are in attendance we remain unaffected.

 

The sankirtana movement is much like a hospital tent that gets set up in the midst of a battlefield to care for the wounded. People will come to join in in some of the most distressful conditions. The distinction is they come to hear the Holy Name from the devotees and the devotees DO NOT Ever go to hear the Holy name from them. In fact even if they chant they do not really have the name at all only some distant reflection or shadow.

 

Now as beginning bhaktas we also have not realized the suddha-nama. But our goal is to go beyond the shadows and reflections to contact the Original Source of that illumination directly in loving service. Whereas the mayavadi is chanting with the goal of realizing that he himself is that original source. We must avoid coming under the same disease that has infected him by avoiding his association. But he is welcome to come under the influence of the devotees. A kirtana conducted by a proper devotee offers a strile disease free environment as long as we remain in that consciousness.

 

So in this spirit no one is to be rejected as a participant but we are very strict on choosing our leaders by whose influence we will be swayed.

[Guest guest]

Likewise <I><B>Theist prabhu</I></B>, please accept my humble obeisances and respects. Yes, to truly learn, one must be willing to admit his lack of knowledge and reexamine as you rightly said. This is applicable to material endeavors as well, not just spiritual. One who assumes he knows everything is the poorer for he will never learn beyond his limited knowledge.

 

I agree with the rest of your points. It's in fact a great post.

 

I don't know if you read the other thread (can't remember which one) but someone wrote about a Temple President who had an affair with a newly joined (and married, at that!) young devotee girl in a motel. I laughed on reading that but when I think about it, I'm no better than the temple president for my mind is completely filled with lust. Anayways, Maya devi is the most potent imaginable force in this material universe. The things Maya devi does to even one on the path of devotional service, it's just beyind comprehension.

 

 

Thank you for your open mind prabhu and your willingness to reexamine. Those are the qualities of a genuine truth seeker. Please accept my respects.

 

I am convinced that is what he meant but will leave it up to you to run the investigation.

 

Also from Srila Prabhupada's teaching I have gleaned others to be avoided include the associaiton with those who are out and out enimical to the successes of other devotees or who prey upon others in often despicable ways. Like those posturing as advanced disciples of Srila Prabhupada but rape children on the side when they are not giving class.

 

New comers to the kirtan are harmless even if they hold mayavadi or other gross materialistic views. The thing is in every kirtana the most advanced person should lead the kirtan or at least set the dominant tone under which the kirtan is conducted.

 

In this way we the various beginner Vaisnavas and the newly attracted materialists and mayavadis are associating with the Holy Name in kirtana under the spirit of the more advanced. In this way even though so many "undesirables" are in attendance we remain unaffected.

 

The sankirtana movement is much like a hospital tent that gets set up in the midst of a battlefield to care for the wounded. People will come to join in in some of the most distressful conditions. The distinction is they come to hear the Holy Name from the devotees and the devotees DO NOT Ever go to hear the Holy name from them. In fact even if they chant they do not really have the name at all only some distant reflection or shadow.

 

Now as beginning bhaktas we also have not realized the suddha-nama. But our goal is to go beyond the shadows and reflections to contact the Original Source of that illumination directly in loving service. Whereas the mayavadi is chanting with the goal of realizing that he himself is that original source. We must avoid coming under the same disease that has infected him by avoiding his association. But he is welcome to come under the influence of the devotees. A kirtana conducted by a proper devotee offers a strile disease free environment as long as we remain in that consciousness.

 

So in this spirit no one is to be rejected as a participant but we are very strict on choosing our leaders by whose influence we will be swayed.

[Guest guest]

Dear all, thank you all so much for taking the time to respond to my query. I don't think I'll be accepting a guru any time soon. Certainly I need to work on my service attitude. I was feeling that I'd never really met any 'gurus' who inspired to me to serve, but now I realise that my attitude was wrong. When I develop the service and surrender attitude to Lord Gauranga, then He may lead me to my disignated gurudeva. I hope.

 

Still though, I do feel that we are missing the self effulgent Acharya in our midst. I think that when such a beautiful personality again comes we will truly be able see to the doves from the crows. Not that I'm suggesting that there are no pure devotees or genuine branches of the Chaitanya tree, there just seems to be no obvious devotee who is uttama adhikari, a mahabhagavata, who is available to all. I feel like I miss Shrila Prabhupada, even though he had left his earthly past times before I was born.

[Guest guest]

I had an amazing realisation today after meeting this amazing devotee. This devotee is totally a pure devotee, but its not like shes a guru or anything. It just made me realise pure devotees can be anyone and just because someone's famous as a devotee, that he or she neccesarily is a pure devotee.

 

All glories to the pure devotees! May they flourish and by their example show us the meaning of 100% surrender.

[Guest guest]

 

I do feel that we are missing the self effulgent Acharya in our midst. I think that when such a beautiful personality again comes we will truly be able see to the doves from the crows. Not that I'm suggesting that there are no pure devotees or genuine branches of the Chaitanya tree, there just seems to be no obvious devotee who is uttama adhikari, a mahabhagavata, who is available to all. I feel like I miss Shrila Prabhupada, even though he had left his earthly past times before I was born.

 

When Krishna Himself was present on Earth, only a handful recognized Him as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Same with Lord Chaitanya.

 

Since even they were only recognized as "self-effulgent" by a relative few, why should we expect ANY "self-effulgent" acharya to receive wide acclaim from our associates?

 

Even Srila Prabhupada was recognized as a pure devotee by only a handful of his godbrothers, and fewer than that appreciated him as guru or saktyavesa avatara. Remember, several dozen of Prabhupada's godbrothers had more disciples than he had, and some wrote as many or more books, built big temples, etc. Yet to those for whom he came, Prabhupada was self-effulgent.

 

Similarly, the guru you recognize as self-effulgent will probably not be recognized as such by a majority of the people around you. It's a heart-to-heart transaction, and you won't be able to make any other. If you settle instead for the guru "everybody else" TELLS you is self-effulgent, you'll be cheated. Follow your heart, and don't expect to follow a crowd, and you'll do fine.

[brajeshwara das]

 

Similarly, the guru you recognize as self-effulgent will probably not be recognized as such by a majority of the people around you. It's a heart-to-heart transaction, and you won't be able to make any other. If you settle instead for the guru "everybody else" TELLS you is self-effulgent, you'll be cheated. Follow your heart, and don't expect to follow a crowd, and you'll do fine.

 

Besides your heart, follow this very sound advice!