Response to Krsna regarding initiation

[Bhakta Devarsi]

All Glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga,

 

I posted this as a response to something I read within the "Origin of Jiva thread, but it was off topic so I reproduce it here.....

 

 

 

"Krsna" said, "The rtviks and covered rtviks are having a field day with this apa-siddhanta-cum-mayavada conclusion."

 

And what Mayavada conclusion is this he refers to?

 

" It'a as preposterous as saying that a conditioned soul can attain pure love for God simply by reading Srila Prabhupada's books and not take diksa initiation from a bona-fide guru."

 

So perhaps "Krsna" can enlighten us as to how Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj would, if asked today, justify the fact (in the public record for all to see) that for at least a full year before his disappearance, he didn't even know the karmi names, or new spiritual names, let alone the faces and character, of most all of the new aspirants who became his initiated disciples during that time.

 

He had already implemented a system by which the recommendations by temple presidents were handled by middle men, under his authorization, who did everything including choosing names, entering them into Srila Prabhupada's disciple boodk, chanting on beads, and granting the go ahead for the agni hotra.

 

According to Krsna's statement, Srila Prabhupada's choice of use of Ritvik priests at that time was apa-sampradaya, and that the new disciples were not getting Diksa initiation from a bona-fide guru.

 

And of course this is the type of reasoning many use when taking another step into the realm of chaos by saying that somehow, the Mahabhagavat Acharya Nityanandavesha Avatara is no longer present, his Murti is just a statue with no capability of meaningful interaction with a jiva disciple in a conditioned material body, and CERTAINLY no one can get Diksa initiation from him, even if he said it was possible and ordered a ritvik system himself!

 

So I leave open some possibility that "Krsna" is the Supreme Lord Himself, identifying himself by his proper name, and is ready to reveal another layer of his mystery of the Acharya's lila through the internet.

 

So please, show us what you've got. Reconcile this blatant and obvious contradiction made by your Senapati Bhakta. Don't leave us hanging.

 

y.s.

 

BD

[Shakti-Fan]

 

" It'a as preposterous as saying that a conditioned soul can attain pure love for God simply by reading Srila Prabhupada's books and not take diksa initiation from a bona-fide guru."

 

 

According to Krsna's statement, Srila Prabhupada's choice of use of Ritvik priests at that time was apa-sampradaya, and that the new disciples were not getting Diksa initiation from a bona-fide guru.

 

According to,

" It'a as preposterous as saying that a conditioned soul can attain pure love for God simply by reading Srila Prabhupada's books and not take diksa initiation from a bona-fide guru."

????????

 

Where do you see the corelation? It's absurd that you would draw out such a conclusion based on that quote alone.

[brajeshwara das]

I don't know about the original question, but here's my take on ritviks:

 

In SCSMath we also allow ritvik initiations, and I have witnessed a few and I always felt my Gurudeva was present and the initiates were truly getting initiated by Srila Govinda Maharaj. I know and trust Sripad Janardan Maharaj is a conduit for Srila Govinda Mahara's mercy.

 

I think the whole issue with the ritvik system in ISKCON is trust. If devotees could feel they trusted all the ritviks I think they wouldn't have so much of an issue with it. More fundamantally if more devotees could feel they could trust the ISKCON Gurus in the disciplic succession from Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupada there wouldn't be a need for the ritvik system, as there was no ritvik system I'm aware of following the disappearance of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada (that I'm aware of). By saying this I'm not saying anyone is untrustworthy, but we know from experience that this is sometimes the case.

 

Please forgive any ignorance from me, as I don't really understand the internal affairs in ISKCON, but from the outside that is how it seems. All Glories to ISKCON and Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupada!

[Bhakta Devarsi]

Hare Krsna

 

Please accept my obeisances Shakti Fan,

 

It appears you did not read the 2 QUOTES I mentioned in my post, both of which were from "Krsna", and together they imply his apparent premise.

 

Go ahead and reread it again carefully if you are intereted. I made no leaps of logic to come to any hasty conclusion.

 

ys

 

BD

[Beggar]

 

... if more devotees could feel they could trust the ISKCON Gurus in the disciplic succession from Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupada there wouldn't be a need for the ritvik system...

Exactly because of the ISKCON Zonal Acarya system, the fall downs, then the so-called reforms and then even more fall downs the entire system of "love and trust" was more or less ruined in ISKCON. This may be the psychology behind the whole thing but there is also a philosophy/theology based on what they call "The Final Order". Guruvani can explain it but it seems that he's semi-retired from "posting madness".

[Shakti-Fan]

 

Hare Krsna

 

Please accept my obeisances Shakti Fan,

 

It appears you did not read the 2 QUOTES I mentioned in my post, both of which were from "Krsna", and together they imply his apparent premise.

 

Go ahead and reread it again carefully if you are intereted. I made no leaps of logic to come to any hasty conclusion.

 

ys

 

BD

But it is only apparent. Perhaps at this time he should re-enter the discussion and clarify his point.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

I don't know about the original question, but here's my take on ritviks:

 

In SCSMath we also allow ritvik initiations, and I have witnessed a few and I always felt my Gurudeva was present and the initiates were truly getting initiated by Srila Govinda Maharaj. I know and trust Sripad Janardan Maharaj is a conduit for Srila Govinda Mahara's mercy.

 

I think the whole issue with the ritvik system in ISKCON is trust. If devotees could feel they trusted all the ritviks I think they wouldn't have so much of an issue with it. More fundamantally if more devotees could feel they could trust the ISKCON Gurus in the disciplic succession from Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupada there wouldn't be a need for the ritvik system, as there was no ritvik system I'm aware of following the disappearance of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada (that I'm aware of). By saying this I'm not saying anyone is untrustworthy, but we know from experience that this is sometimes the case.

 

Please forgive any ignorance from me, as I don't really understand the internal affairs in ISKCON, but from the outside that is how it seems. All Glories to ISKCON and Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupada!

 

Obeisances, Brajeshwara das.

 

If the person's authorized to be Ritvik reps by Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada were to have followed all of his instructions, without deviation, that would have earned trust.

 

Free Will holds supreme. Accepting and Rejecting according to desire.

 

So take one's free will choice to desire the personal attributes of fame, adoration, and distinction

 

and combine that with a free will choice to decide to gain those attributes by one's own speculative material exploits, instead of gaining those attributes through surrendered devotional service...

 

You get Notoriety instead of Godly Fame.

 

You get Cheaters looking for victims.

 

Not Swami Prabhupada's fault. He took dictation from Sri Krsna. Sri Krsna saw who stepped up to the plate, gave them instructions according to the Unique time place and circumstance through his surrendered acharya, and ordered Ritvik initiation system to continue.

 

The fact that those disciples freely chose to break their disciple ship by not acting within the parameters their Acharya left them, is no poor reflection upon Swami Prabhupada's "methods" but instead an opportunity for us to feel more separation from the Lord, and to beg to understand a bit more about how we can fit into his plan after disobeying for so long, and maybe muster a little faith that if we followed STRICTLY things would be better and we'd be making better advancement.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj wisely and humbly took a lesson from his highly advanced and exalted Godbrother and friend, and showed by his exemplar how to recognize the position of a senior Acharya, and follow in their footsteps, Acharya in this case one who understands how the LORD sees things need to progress according to a unique time place and circumstance, and I believe Srila Sridhar Maharaj was no less than such an Acharya before he "disappeared". He was able to honor his Guru, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhu, and still take Siksa from his advanced Godbrother. What vision. How Glorious.

 

Hare Krsna

 

ys

 

BD

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

But it is only apparent. Perhaps at this time he should re-enter the discussion and clarify his point.

 

Dear Prabhu,

 

I was using the foundational meaning of the word apparent which is according to all dictionaries, if you check their first and second definitions, similar to webster's.

 

1. open to view : visible

2. clear or manifest to the understanding <reasons that are readily apparent>

 

In no way was I implying the secondary definition of apparent, where it only appears on the surface to be one way, but illusion may be covering the truth.

 

So perhaps I should have used the word obvious.

 

But I thought it would be obvious how I was using the word apparent.

 

The secondary definition of the word apparent applies to what happened when you looked at my first post and missed the corrolation. You had a preconceived mental structure which did not allow you to read thoroughly and instead what was APPARENT to you, and led you to write your first post to me, was actually not the case, and you missed the reality because of that preconceived and prejudiced mental structure (aka illusion) that blocked your view.

 

So yes, if our desire is to view what is obviously appearing this requires assistance from the Supreme Lord's internal potency. If we desire to see anything contrary to what is obviously appearing, he readily assists that desire by his servant Maha Maya, and we get some personal illusion.

 

So simple, yet so hard to deal with when we have mixed motivation. Sorry to say I am still flip flopping a bit myself, please don't take this as some offensive fault finding, just stating the obvious from personal ongoing experience.

 

Hare Krsna

 

ys

 

BD

[brajeshwara das]

I'm not arguing anyone's position, but just wanted to mention Srila Swami Maharaj considered Srila Sridhar Maharaj his Siksha Guru, referring to Him as 'Om Vishnupada'. I'm certain Srila Sridhar Maharaj heard Sri Guru from Srila Swami Maharaj as well, not sure he considered him Shiksha Guru though, I know he considering Him Shaktavesh Avatar. Just paying proper respects.

[theist]

No need for ritviks. We know Srila Prabhupada is a lover and knower of Krsna. As such we bow down before him. That will be pleasing to krsna according to our sincerity.

 

When Krsna is pleased to see us honor His devotee He will reciprocate by turning up the samvit dial within our hearts and help us understand the instructions left by Srila Prabhupada. Those instructions point us to honoring obeying and ultimately loving Krsna. When we follow those instructions to love Krsna Srila Prabhupada will be pleased to see us moving in that direction and Krsna will be pleased with us because Srila Prabhupada will be pleased.

 

This is the complete formulae and if we carry it out fully we will become perfect lovers of Krsna ourselves.

 

I see no need for a stamp of approval in the form of a formal initiation by either the ecclesiastical guru walas or the self-appointed ritviks. Their opinons concerning my internal affairs are meaningless to me and I consider them both to be unnecessary disturbances in society.

[Beggar]

 

...I see no need for a stamp of approval in the form of a formal initiation by either the ecclesiastical guru walas or the self-appointed ritviks. Their opinons concerning my internal affairs are meaningless to me and I consider them both to be unnecessary disturbances in society.

Einen Lehrer anzunehmen ist nicht eine jüdische Verschwörung!

adau guru padasraya

First one must accept a guru

zuerst müssen Sie einen Lehrer annehmen

adau guru padasraya

First one must accept a guru

zuerst müssen Sie einen Lehrer annehmen

First one must accept a guru

zuerst müssen Sie einen Lehrer annehmen:deal:

[Beggar]

 

 

<reasons that="" are="" readily="">

 

The secondary definition of the word apparent applies to what happened when you looked at my first post and missed the corrolation. You had a preconceived mental structure which did not allow you to read thoroughly and instead what was APPARENT to you, and led you to write your first post to me, was actually not the case, and you missed the reality because of that preconceived and prejudiced mental structure (aka illusion) that blocked your view.

 

So yes, if our desire is to view what is obviously appearing this requires assistance from the Supreme Lord's internal potency. If we desire to see anything contrary to what is obviously appearing, he readily assists that desire by his servant Maha Maya, and we get some personal illusion.

 

So simple, yet so hard to deal with when we have mixed motivation. Sorry to say I am still flip flopping a bit myself, please don't take this as some offensive fault finding, just stating the obvious from personal ongoing experience.

BD

Dear Prabhuji, I think that you are barking up the wrong tree with this Shakti-fan. If you take the primary quote that he quoted: </reasons>" It's as preposterous as saying that a conditioned soul can attain pure love for God simply by reading Srila Prabhupada's books and not take diksa initiation from a bona-fide guru." and then translate it into the language of the Fatherland, you will see what I mean: "It's so preposterous, wie, sagend, daß eine konditionierte Seele reine Liebe für Gott durch lesensrila Prabhupadas Bücher einfach erreichen und diksa Einführung von einem bona-fide Guru nicht nehmen kann.":deal:

[Guest guest]

Perhaps you should consult the Vatican about this:

It's ut preposterous ut sententia ut a valetudo animus can pervenio putus diligo pro Deus simplex per lectio Srila Prabhupada's libri neque nec take diksa orsus ex a bona - fidelitas guru.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

Dear Prabhuji, I think that you are barking up the wrong tree with this Shakti-fan. If you take the primary quote that he quoted: " It's as preposterous as saying that a conditioned soul can attain pure love for God simply by reading Srila Prabhupada's books and not take diksa initiation from a bona-fide guru." and then translate it into the language of the Fatherland, you will see what I mean: "It's so preposterous, wie, sagend, daß eine konditionierte Seele reine Liebe für Gott durch lesensrila Prabhupadas Bücher einfach erreichen und diksa Einführung von einem bona-fide Guru nicht nehmen kann.":deal:

 

Sorry Beggar, I beg you to go back and read the first post that started my response which was in another thread as indicated and written by one who calls himself "Krsna".

 

Then read what Shakti Fan wrote, and all will become apparent to you.

 

Hare Krsna

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

No need for ritviks. We know Srila Prabhupada is a lover and knower of Krsna. As such we bow down before him. That will be pleasing to krsna according to our sincerity.

 

When Krsna is pleased to see us honor His devotee He will reciprocate by turning up the samvit dial within our hearts and help us understand the instructions left by Srila Prabhupada. Those instructions point us to honoring obeying and ultimately loving Krsna. When we follow those instructions to love Krsna Srila Prabhupada will be pleased to see us moving in that direction and Krsna will be pleased with us because Srila Prabhupada will be pleased.

 

This is the complete formulae and if we carry it out fully we will become perfect lovers of Krsna ourselves.

 

I see no need for a stamp of approval in the form of a formal initiation by either the ecclesiastical guru walas or the self-appointed ritviks. Their opinons concerning my internal affairs are meaningless to me and I consider them both to be unnecessary disturbances in society.

 

If we read CC Madhya 15 107-108, we can see exactly Srila Prabhupada performed a formal initiation ceremony for his disciples.

 

Not all who are born in the family of dog eaters are conditioned souls.

 

Liberated souls can take the holy name and complete all 9 processes and acheive perfect love of Krsna.

 

Conditioned souls are mercifully given a process by which they can come to the point of chanting WITHOUT OFFENSE.

 

Proper initiation according to the injunctions in the scripture by a bonafide spiritual master is an essential part of this process, as it is a gateway to authorized arcana vigraha, the fourth process, the one that helps all the conditioned souls like me and YOU to progress nicely out of our neophyte dilemnas.

 

And you can argue with Srila Prabhupada's decision to authorize ritvik priests to arrange diksa initiation completely without his involvement while he was still walking the earth, that doesn't change the historical fact of it, nor the fact that he called this ritvik representation, and appointed others to carry on that system.

 

This is so apparent it is obvious to me.

 

Of course if one is starting one's own branch of the Gaudiya Sampradaya, then you can choose how to initiate, and "no ritviks needed" is fine with me, you go for yours. It just seems inappropriate to comment in a contradicting fashion on some other Acharya's system where his disciples are still following those rules.

 

As Acharya of your own mission, you ought to understand that neophytes faith is easily swayed, and to contradict their chosen Acharya is counterproductive to your sweet Lord's mission. Ok?

 

Hare Krsna

 

ys

 

BD

[brajeshwara das]

Theist is his own branch of the Gaudiya Sampradaya? Sweet!

 

All I can say is trust is necessary. One may trust Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupada, how fortunate is that?!? We can't minimize the power in that. If one feels that association is sufficient, or hasn't found one he can trust and surrender to, we should respect that. There is a lot of sincerity there.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

Theist is his own branch of the Gaudiya Sampradaya? Sweet!

 

All I can say is trust is necessary. One may trust Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupada, how fortunate is that?!? We can't minimize the power in that. If one feels that association is sufficient, or hasn't found one he can trust and surrender to, we should respect that. There is a lot of sincerity there.

 

Well spoken Braj Prabhu.

 

I am only compelled to speak when I believe someone is in danger of

 

1. confusing disciples of Srila Prabhupada's Iskcon by apparently (seemingly or otherwise) contradicting Srila Prabhupada's instructions for his disciples.

 

2. in the same vein, in danger of committing a pretty big offense by doing so, so maybe my perspective added might prompt them to choose a different course.

 

I do hope I am not missing the mark here, I don't want to DISTURB anyone's faith, unless they are actually only faithful to their speculative mind, believe they are a disciple of a Guru when they are not, and go around expounding on this and that like an authority.

 

Then, disturbing that misplaced faith is actually a favor to someone.

 

If they see that and appreciate it, I have done some service to my Guru.

 

If they reject me, then I am to consider them not interested in being even a momentary student to my teacher mode, and I am to leave them be respecting their free will.

 

I haven't heard any actual responses from the people who's positions I addressed, so I will give myself the benefit of the doubt, and continue my vigilant service.

 

Hare Krsna

 

ys

 

BD

[brajeshwara das]

 

Well spoken Braj Prabhu.

 

I am only compelled to speak when I believe someone is in danger of

 

1. confusing disciples of Srila Prabhupada's Iskcon by apparently (seemingly or otherwise) contradicting Srila Prabhupada's instructions for his disciples.

 

2. in the same vein, in danger of committing a pretty big offense by doing so, so maybe my perspective added might prompt them to choose a different course.

 

I do hope I am not missing the mark here, I don't want to DISTURB anyone's faith, unless they are actually only faithful to their speculative mind, believe they are a disciple of a Guru when they are not, and go around expounding on this and that like an authority.

 

Then, disturbing that misplaced faith is actually a favor to someone.

 

If they see that and appreciate it, I have done some service to my Guru.

 

If they reject me, then I am to consider them not interested in being even a momentary student to my teacher mode, and I am to leave them be respecting their free will.

 

I haven't heard any actual responses from the people who's positions I addressed, so I will give myself the benefit of the doubt, and continue my vigilant service.

 

Hare Krsna

 

ys

 

BD

 

Sure, I understand. It is also my faith that the diksha Guru plants the creeper of devotion, gives the Holy Name, and is necessary. But everyone has to surrender in thier own time and way, and who is a Sadhu? I know many who have not taken formal initiation are much more advanced than I, so I have to pay my respects if I hear Guru there.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

Sure, I understand. It is also my faith that the diksha Guru plants the creeper of devotion, gives the Holy Name, and is necessary. But everyone has to surrender in thier own time and way, and who is a Sadhu? I know many who have not taken formal initiation are much more advanced than I, so I have to pay my respects if I hear Guru there.

Jaya Prabhu

 

Such an attitude benefits you and the one who was willing to set their self aside for some time, and give nice Siksa. Positive re-enforcement.

 

Recently I have been contemplating on how even prakrta neophyte disicples can provide relevant siksa quite easily from time to time.

 

I am discouraged at the tendency that some have to label such person's Siksa Guru.

 

They are in actuality a Disciple of a Guru, who is providing Siksa under guidance.

 

There is a world of difference between a disciple giving Siksa, and a Guru giving Siksa. The disciple may not yet be an unalloyed and advanced devotee, which are the qualifications for one to be considered "A Spiritual Master" or "A Siksa (instructing) Guru"

 

Srila Prabhupada puts it like this. In the CC Adi 1.34 Purport.

 

 

Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami has composed this Sanskrit verse for the beginning of his book, and now he will explain it in detail. He offers his respectful obeisances to the six principles of the Absolute Truth. Gurun is plural in number because anyone who gives spiritual instructions based on the revealed scriptures is accepted as a spiritual master. Although others give help in showing the way to beginners, the guru who first initiates one with the maha-mantra is to be known as the initiator, and the saints who give instructions for progressive advancement in Krsna consciousness are called instructing spiritual masters. The initiating and instructing spiritual masters are equal and identical manifestations of Krsna, although they have different dealings.

 

Key phrase, "instructing spiritual master is a manifestation of Krsna".

 

A neophyte disciple may be overshadowed by the internal potency as a faithful servant of his Guru, and may give relevant Siksa from time to time, but they are certainly not yet to be considered a manifestation of Krsna.

 

And for those who poo-poo (not you Braj Prabhu) the need for formal initiation... See CC Adi 1.35 Purport

 

 

"One should always remember that a person who is reluctant to accept a spiritual master and be initiated is sure to be baffled in his endeavor to go back to Godhead. One who is not properly initiated may present himself as a great devotee, but in fact he is sure to encounter many stumbling blocks on his path of progress toward spiritual realization, with the result that he must continue his term of material existence without relief."

 

Srila Prabhupada used to say that accepting the Spiritual Master is initiation proper, and the ceremony is a formality. But that both were transcendental, and according to the CC, for nitya baddha jivas, necessary.

 

But here he specifically separates accepting a spiritual master and being initiated.

 

Why be redundant, if his only position is that accepting the instruction of a spiritual master is totally equivalent to being initiated?

 

For most conditioned souls, formal initiation is important for advancement in offenseless chanting. It is just so.

 

Hare Krsna

 

ys

 

BD

[theist]

 

Einen Lehrer anzunehmen ist nicht eine jüdische Verschwörung!

adau guru padasraya

First one must accept a guru

zuerst müssen Sie einen Lehrer annehmen

adau guru padasraya

First one must accept a guru

zuerst müssen Sie einen Lehrer annehmen

First one must accept a guru

zuerst müssen Sie einen Lehrer annehmen:deal:

Well, I don't confuse a formal initiation ceremony with actually accepting a spiritual master.

 

I am not antagonistic towards such ceremonies I simiply have no interest.

[Guest guest]

sometimes he likes to just be quiet and observe. He's not gone, just watching. LOL. Be carful to show respect to the elders even if you think they are not looking!

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Exactly because of the ISKCON Zonal Acarya system, the fall downs, then the so-called reforms and then even more fall downs the entire system of "love and trust" was more or less ruined in ISKCON. This may be the psychology behind the whole thing but there is also a philosophy/theology based on what they call "The Final Order". Guruvani can explain it but it seems that he's semi-retired from "posting madness".

[theist]

 

If we read CC Madhya 15 107-108, we can see exactly Srila Prabhupada performed a formal initiation ceremony for his disciples.

I have read that section many times and have a completely different understanding then you apparently do.

CC Madhya 15.107: "Simply by chanting the holy name of Krishna once, a person is relieved from all the reactions of a sinful life. One can complete the nine processes of devotional service simply by chanting the holy name.

CC Madhya 15.108: "One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered.

CC Madhya 15.109: "By chanting the holy name of the Lord, one dissolves his entanglement in material activities. After this, one becomes very much attracted to Krishna, and thus dormant love for Krishna is awakened.

CC Madhya 15.110: "'The holy name of Lord Krishna is an attractive feature for many saintly, liberal people. It is the annihilator of all sinful reactions and is so powerful that, save for the dumb who cannot chant it, it is readily available to everyone, including the lowest type of man, the candala. The holy name of Krishna is the controller of the opulence of liberation, and it is identical with Krishna. When a person simply chants the holy name with his tongue, immediate effects are produced. Chanting the holy name does not depend on initiation, pious activities or the purascarya

regulative principles generally observed before initiation. The holy name does not wait for any of these activities. It is self-sufficient.'"

 

Not all who are born in the family of dog eaters are conditioned souls.

 

Liberated souls can take the holy name and complete all 9 processes and acheive perfect love of Krsna.

I don't accept your interpretaton that only liberated souls can take the holy name and complete the nine processes of devotional service.

 

What it clearly says is that simply by chanting the Holy name one can complete all nine processes of devotional service. IOW's words the Holy Name contains all the other process within it.

 

CC Madhya 15.107: "Simply by chanting the holy name of Krishna once, a person is relieved from all the reactions of a sinful life. One can complete the nine processes of devotional service simply by chanting the holy name.

 

You are turning these verses on their head. I think you are the dangerous one.

 

 

 

Conditioned souls are mercifully given a process by which they can come to the point of chanting WITHOUT OFFENSE.

 

 

Yes and verse 107 above clearly says that that process can be completed simply by chanting the Holy Name. Anything else one chooses to include in his sadhana is his personal choice.

 

 

 

Proper initiation according to the injunctions in the scripture by a bonafide spiritual master is an essential part of this process, as it is a gateway to authorized arcana vigraha, the fourth process, the one that helps all the conditioned souls like me and YOU to progress nicely out of our neophyte dilemnas.

And Prabhupada said his own initiation came in the form an impression he received from Bhaktisiddhanta the first time he met him. And then 11 years later he went through the ceremony. Do you see the distinction between initiation and the ceremony now?

 

 

And you can argue with Srila Prabhupada's decision to authorize ritvik priests to arrange diksa initiation completely without his involvement while he was still walking the earth, that doesn't change the historical fact of it, nor the fact that he called this ritvik representation, and appointed others to carry on that system.

What makes you think I have a quarrel with it. You take too many liberaties with others thoughts my friend. You have little idea what I think about anything so better you stick to explaining your own perspective on things.

 

 

 

Of course if one is starting one's own branch of the Gaudiya Sampradaya, then you can choose how to initiate, and "no ritviks needed" is fine with me, you go for yours. It just seems inappropriate to comment in a contradicting fashion on some other Acharya's system where his disciples are still following those rules.

Are you a crazy man? Who said anything about starting their own branch of the Gaudiya Sampradaya or initiating anyone.

 

 

As Acharya of your own mission, you ought to understand that neophytes faith is easily swayed, and to contradict their chosen Acharya is counterproductive to your sweet Lord's mission. Ok?

My own mission??? You are very expert in insulting others aren't you?

[theist]

 

Theist is his own branch of the Gaudiya Sampradaya? Sweet!

 

 

 

Theist knows he is not his own branch of the Gaudiya Sampradaya. I am simply an ant who is living under the shelter of said tree and live off the bits of fruit that sometimes fall my way.

 

I am just a small soul lost in a gigantic and bewildering matrix of temporary sights, sounds, tastes, sensations of touch, smells, and thoughts and concepts.

 

10,000 plus posts I can't remember ever saying I was a representative of GV, or a disciple of any guru, or anything like that. I am just a small soul lost in a gigantic and bewildering matrix of temporary sights sounds tastes sensations of touch smells and thoughts and concepts trying to perceive the Eternal through this display.

 

Nothing more.

[brajeshwara das]

 

Theist knows he is not his own branch of the Gaudiya Sampradaya. I am simply an ant who is living under the shelter of said tree and live off the bits of fruit that sometimes fall my way.

 

I am just a small soul lost in a gigantic and bewildering matrix of temporary sights, sounds, tastes, sensations of touch, smells, and thoughts and concepts.

 

10,000 plus posts I can't remember ever saying I was a representative of GV, or a disciple of any guru, or anything like that. I am just a small soul lost in a gigantic and bewildering matrix of temporary sights sounds tastes sensations of touch smells and thoughts and concepts trying to perceive the Eternal through this display.

 

Nothing more.

 

Yes Prabhu, I was just joking. The statement "As Acharya of your own mission" was pretty was far out there, I thought is was pretty funny. You have been nothing but helpful and kind to me, I hope I caused you no offense.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

It sure is easy to cherry pick when one lives atop an Ivory tower.

 

A neophyte follows strictly every detailed nuance of each order given by his Spiritual Master. Rules and Regs are the life. If someone is so conditioned that their spiritual master institutionalizes them, that should be considered the necessary mercy, and every rule and procedure followed to the T.

 

From this strict sometimes sweet and sometimes bitter Vaidhi Sadhana, one naturally makes a transition to Raganuga sadhana, apparently performing the same activities, following the same rules and regs, but subjectively that bhakta has the sense of engaging in spontaneous activity. Inconceivable but true, this is mentioned in the Nectar of Devotion.

 

So anyone who is "no longer interested" in some procedure that an Acharya considered important enough to include in the sadhana offered to his disciples, they have become asara or useless to that particular mission, and certainly have not passed through vaidhi bhakti sadhana, forget being in anyway authorized or deserving of holding opinions on methods of a great Acharya.

 

Hare Krsna

 

p.s. I take no liberties, I just do not speak pleasantly as if in social company, if I see the truth I talk about it, palatable or not, false ego's notwithstanding, especially in a place where people go for "spiritual discussion".